blackspade:

My whole family believes in god and I do too, but recently (as in the last few months) I've been questioning myself with things such as: does god exist? what if religion is just one of the worlds longest running fairytales? why are there so many contradictions in the bible? am I wasting my time worshipping something I can't see? is christianity just a mechanism used by europeans to spread their idealogy and culture?

I was once in your shoes and I cried bitterly when I realized it was all a farce. If you feel that lack of belief is going to make you misrable then pls go ahead and keep believingm your hapiness is all that matters, do what ever will make you happy , if believing in a god is what will bring you happiness then try and be around people that will strengthen your beliefs. Your happiness matters most.

I want to believe in god, and recognize some of the things in life that we can't explain, and can only be explained by god, but sometimes I just don't know. I've been feeling a little depressed lately, so maybe that has something to do with it, I don't know. What the hell is wrong with me? Am I just going through a phase?

You have all ready presupposed that there is a god, as for me i am more than comfortable with my atheism and it gives me FAR more joy and happiness than when i was a believer. Your happiness is what matters most.

huxley2:

Isn't having DOUBT already a SIN?

Romans 14: 23,  But the person who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not act in faith; and anything that is not done in faith is sin.

Every unbelief is sin. Doubt is not a sin until it becomes full-fledged unbelief.
When in doubt . . . pray, read the bible . . . seek God's face.

bindex:

You have all ready presupposed that there is a god, as for me i am more than comfortable with my atheism and it gives me FAR more joy and happiness than when i was a believer. Your happiness is what matters most.

Can you ever be truly "happy" as an atheist? Believe you me at some point i started to ignore the church, packed my bibles neatly somewhere and tried to move on with a life without rules . . . turned out to be the saddest periods of my life.

It all depends on how you define "happiness". The bible says extremely little about happiness, it focuses MOSTLY on JOY because both are clearly NOT the same. You can be happy for a fleeting moment but have no joy in you. Having fun is not the same as being happy.

will get back to you @ blackspade
@davidlyan am not bothered your comments
@pilgrim1 i dont have to be a christian to speak Godly shogbo,hypocrite,

uplawal:

will get back to you @ blackspade
@davidlyan am not bothered your comments
@pilgrim1 i dont have to be a christian to speak Godly shogbo,hypocrite,

you're not speaking "godly", you're basically plagiarising biblical language and dressing them up for islam. Islam does not make any such claim about allah speaking to a muslim PERSONALLY or EVER revealing himself to them. Even Mohammad was not so priviledged.

Where is the quranic verse to support the nonsense about asking allah to speak to a muslim personally? Which prayers exactly are to be recited to make such a bogus claim?

uplawal:

will get back to you @ blackspade
@davidlyan am not bothered your comments
@pilgrim1 i dont have to be a christian to speak Godly shogbo,hypocrite,

I thought atheist believe there is no GOD!!

@davidylan,

davidylan:

Unfortunately i simply do not agree. God promised that He would send Christ (essentially Himself) as the Messiah . . . to deny Christ is to deny God period.

I get your point, and anticipated that was where you were going all along. We can bear with your concerns, but hey. . . look again at the OP's concerns:

        ~ does god exist?

        ~ I want to believe in god, . .

He has not made a case of denying Christ. His question is one that we are all familiar with: "does God exist?" That is not the same thing as denying Christ. Some who acknowledge Christ do not acknowledge the claims of His identity - such as His being the Son of God, or His deity. These other two claims are not the same thing as denying/doubting the existence of God - to which the OP says: "I want to believe in God".

However, from your previous reply:

davidylan:

while i understand your point . . . i'd like to REALISTICALLY examine John's issue as it pertains to us today. Would we be as forgiving of John's question today if he had posed it on a nairaland forum? The answer is a big NO!

Its easier to justify John today since all we have of him is a short story stuck somewhere in the gospels . . . John HEARD God's voice at Jordan, he SAW the dove descend on Jesus Christ . . . for him to doubt if truly Christ was the messiah was a tacit admission that perhaps all he had heard and seen that day might have been a fantasy all along.

[size=14pt]Blackspade's puzzle is not even close to John's.[/size] Blackspade never experienced what John saw, blackspade has NEVER seen Christ IN THE FLESH, blackspade was not a first-hand witness to miracles, signs and wonders. Blackspade was not there when Christ preached powerful sermons that changed hearts and convicted souls . . . if John himself could waver in the face of adversity . . . pls i think blackspade's case is not as bad.

This is the same John who must have learnt, on his mother's knees, about the prophecy about him and his cousin Jesus. This is a John who from a child knew what his role was - to be a forerunner of Christ the Messiah . . .

This same John suddenly wasnt sure who the Messiah was again after so long?

Its easy to say that anyone who doubts God was never a christian in the first place . . . perhaps many need to go through those extremely low points in life when you wonder if anyone truly cares whether you exist or not.

Three things here, which even you acknowledge:

(a) blackspade's case is not the same as John the Baptist's

(b) that John the Baptist had doubts about the identity of Jesus

(c) that someone may doubt GOD and not be Christian.


Dear davidylan, all three enquiries are answered already and could be answered in one sentnece again: they are not the same things.

(1) the OP's doubts were about the existence of GOD - not about the existence of Christ;

(2) John the baptist is never spoken of in Scripture as losing faith in GOD;

(3) there are many people (including Jews - and yes, Gentiles) who believe in God even though they are NOT Christians.

Perhaps the difficultly here is that you seem to tie everything to ONLY the identity of Christ ("who Christ was"; and this takes away and detracts from the OP's concerns - "DOES [U]GOD[/U] EXIST?"

I hope we can learn to deal with each enquiry in their own merit to keep it simple.

uplawal:

@pilgrim1 i dont have to be a christian to speak Godly shogbo,hypocrite,

I hope you're alright? Are you not having some problems with yourself already? Do Muslims ask allah to show himself to them?

Pilgrim . . . your points are duly noted. Thank you.

No wahala.

Blackspade just out of curiousity has the religion section in nairaland got anything to do with you losing your faith?

davidylan:

Can you ever be truly "happy" as an atheist? Believe you me at some point i started to ignore the church, packed my bibles neatly somewhere and tried to move on with a life without rules . . . turned out to be the saddest periods of my life.

I am MOST happy now that I am an atheist, You see you have a very big problem with linking atheism with wrong doing. The greatest atheist and secular nations like Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Finland and Belgium to name a few happen to be the countries with lowest recorded cases of, voilence, rape, abortion, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy,low illiteracy rates, as well as high levels of educational attainment, per capita income and gender equality. They also have some of the highest life expectancy and record some of the lowest level of diseases. That is why I say that religion is a sweet delusion. why are you a good person? are you a good person because of the fear of an invisible deity or are you a good person because you know that doing good it self is good? So because you are battling with the bible you then feel that you should start going around doing bad things? Is the bible the only thing that is making you a good person? You don't need any god or religion to be good 90percent of the people in Sweden do not believe in God and they are by FAR better than the 90 percent of Nigerians who believe in god. In fact the Swedish people remain the best people I know.

It all depends on how you define "happiness". The bible says extremely little about happiness, it focuses MOSTLY on JOY because both are clearly NOT the same. You can be happy for a fleeting moment but have no joy in you. Having fun is not the same as being happy.

What Joy is the bible talking about here? Happiness to me means satisfaction and the peace that comes with life. If there is any Joy or happiness as the bible promises you will expect Christian nations to filled with the most happy people or people who feel the most positive about their lives but that is not the case. Yahoo released a list of World's Happiest Places Which is a list of countries where people feel most happy and positive about their lives and almost all the countries happen to be atheist and secular countries.

davidylan:

Can you ever be truly "happy" as an atheist? Believe you me at some point i started to ignore the church, packed my bibles neatly somewhere and tried to move on with a life without rules . . . turned out to be the saddest periods of my life.

It all depends on how you define "happiness". The bible says extremely little about happiness, it focuses MOSTLY on JOY because both are clearly NOT the same. You can be happy for a fleeting moment but have no joy in you. Having fun is not the same as being happy.

Yes you can be truly happy as an atheist, even though that depends on what you define as being truly happy. Sadness comes from cares and worries and all religions do the same thing that atheists do when cares and worries come which is to escape into fantasy. The depth of the fantasy might differ but the principle is the same, only problem is that when christians fail in convincing themselves of this fantasy and end up being overwhelmed, all that other christians do is to further descend into fantasy by implying that those people never truly beleived while Atheists and agnostics do not have that luxury to further deceive themselves.
The only people I know who are happy all the time have more than a few screws loose upstairs.

Religion plays the role of a paliative to the fearful, gullible and ignorant and intellectually feeble in the same  way that alcohol does to the drunk.  Take their religion away, and they are lost.

huxley2:

Religion plays the role of a paliative to the fearful, gullible and ignorant and intellectually feeble in the same  way that alcohol does to the drunk.  Take their religion away, and they are lost.

There's no need to be pejorative. The gullible, ignorant and drunk abound among atheists - unless you've forgotten so soon that we've dialogued on the subject of atheists who write about "atheistic religions"  - did you forget that?



Edit:
NB, just some links to help some on the last note I made above about "atheistic religions":

* Are there Any Atheistic Religions? Can an Atheist Be Part of Any Religion?

*Some quote:

Finally, there are Atheistic religions (Greek: without god). These have no creator god as such (although there may be spirits and other exotic entities). Buddhism is an example (the Buddha is a human who has reached enlightenment), Jainism (with its Tirthankas, or teachers), Confucianism, Taoism (these last two are more philosophies than god-driven religions).

Kai bindex yane? hau layi. . . . .

pilgrim.1:

There's no need to be pejorative. The gullible, ignorant and drunk abound among atheists - unless you've forgotten so soon that we've dialogued on the subject of atheists who write about "atheistic religions"  - did you forget that?



Edit:
NB, just some links to help some on the last note I made above about "atheistic religions":

* Are there Any Atheistic Religions? Can an Atheist Be Part of Any Religion?

*Some quote:

Pardon me, I agree my comment was inflammatory. But the comment specifically refers to religions (by which I mean theistic and atheistic religions) - althought it is less effective with atheistic religion because atheistic religion does not promise the kind of existential consolations that the theistic religons do.

@blackspade

I welcome you to the state of "Sincere Uncertainty", most of these bible toting types are in such a state as you are hence the reason for the different types of advice, as they are all individually defining their God (though starting from the same basic template).

Here are some of the roads ahead of you (which I don't need any prophetic gift to see) and the decision is all yours.

1. Convince yourself that God exists and become an establishment person like Lady
2. Convince yourself that God exists and become his apologist like Jesoul
3. Convince yourself that God exists and become an hypocrite like Davidylan
4. Convince yourself that God exists and become a fanatic like Abuzola
5. Convince yourself that God does not exist and become a theist's nightmare like Huxley, Mazaje and Bindex
6. Convince yourself that God does not exist but remain a generally nice guy like Chrisbenogor
7. Remain in the state of "Sincere Uncertainty" like myself and a few others (it is not so bad a state to be in as the religionists like to think and I stand corrected in declaring it the most honest state to be in as the others are either lying to themselves and others, being lied to, or making assumptions which may go either way)

e.t.c.

Whatever your decision is, you'll be the one to live with it, I wish you all the best and long live the religion forum.

huxley2:

Pardon me, I agree my comment was inflammatory.

I understand, although we should all endeavour to foster a healthy and enabling atmosphere for dialogue.

huxley2:

But the comment specifically refers to religions (by which I mean theistic and atheistic religions) - althought it is less effective with atheistic religion because atheistic religion does not promise the kind of existential consolations that the theistic religons do.

Oh, my dear, you're very wrong on this one. It may help us all to actually read up on the fundamental tenets of those atheistic religions and find that they offer their own 'existential consolations'. The only difference is HOW they make such offers - which is why they differ from theistic religions.

duduspace:

@blackspade

I welcome you to the state of "Sincere Uncertainty", most of these bible toting types are in such a state as you are hence the reason for the different types of advice, as they are all individually defining their God (though starting from the same basic template).

Here are some of the roads ahead of you (which I don't need any prophetic gift to see) and the decision is all yours.

1. Convince yourself that God exists and become an establishment person like Lady
2. Convince yourself that God exists and become his apologist like Jesoul
3. Convince yourself that God exists and become an hypocrite like Davidylan
4. Convince yourself that God exists and become a fanatic like Abuzola
5. Convince yourself that God does not exist and become a theist's nightmare like Huxley, Mazaje and Bindex
6. Convince yourself that God does not exist but remain a generally nice guy like Chrisbenogor
7. Remain in the state of "Sincere Uncertainty" like myself and a few others (it is not so bad a state to be in as the religionists like to think and I stand corrected in declaring it the most honest state to be in as the others are either lying to themselves and others, being lied to, or making assumptions which may go either way)

e.t.c.

Whatever your decision is, you'll be the one to live with it, I wish you all the best and long live the religion forum.

Well said. Just out of my nosey curiousity, how does someone with "sincere uncertainty" conduct their life? Do you go to church? Do you pray occasionally? Would you baptise your children? Basically, how does being terminally uncertain influence the important decision of life?

davidylan:

Can you ever be truly "happy" as an atheist? Believe you me at some point i started to ignore the church, packed my bibles neatly somewhere and tried to move on with a life without rules . . . turned out to be the saddest periods of my life.

this is the biggest problem i have with most theists. . . .they believe that atheist are ALL EVIL people . do you need to believe in god to be a good person? goodness without god is not only good enough, but better than a religious morality because  belief in god does not guarantee morality all i know is that religious texts are too outdated to be useful in deciding contemporary ethical problems. . . . . . instead humans need to use their intelligence to identify common moral principles according to which ethical dilemmas can be resolved.  if the reason why you are moral or good is because you believe in god, then you have not developed the full dimensions of the human personality. moral development is autonomous. many of the atheist countries have less crime and less violence than theist countries.(norway,sweden,finland,holland,denmark)

It all depends on how you define "happiness". The bible says extremely little about happiness, it focuses MOSTLY on JOY because both are clearly NOT the same. You can be happy for a fleeting moment but have no joy in you. Having fun is not the same as being happy.

I am VERY happy with my atheistic view and it gives me all the comfort i need, i also believe that happiness here and now is the basic good for all humans, this life is not simply the preparation for an afterlife which there is NO evidence for. for me life is very meaningful. the meaning of life is what we invest in. as bindex pointed out in his early post if the bible and all the joy it promises is true then you will expect christians to be the  happiest people who have the most positive out look to life or you should expect christians to be amongst those who feel the most positive about their lives but instead atheist come out on top. That is not to say that atheist are the happiest people but just to show that christians are VERY wrong when they assert that without Jesus life is misreable and completely without happiness. That seems to be the attitude of most christians

huxley2:

Well said. Just out of my nosey curiousity, how does someone with "sincere uncertainty" conduct their life? Do you go to church? Do you pray occasionally? Would you baptise your children? Basically, how does being terminally uncertain influence the important decision of life?

Accept that which is proven based on consistent evidence and is of utilitarian value, acknowledge the fact that some things are unexplained at present but will likely be as human knowledge advances. It is basically an acknowledgement that mankind at present does not know everything.

I don't form an habit of going to church but I can go, it actually could be a source of cheap/free comedic entertainment you know?

Yes atimes,  I do pray when I'm at my wits end but I acknowledge my prayers for what it is, a relic of my christian upbringing and just in case god is really out there (I also like having my bases covered).

I wouldn't  baptise my children, even the christians aren't agreed on that. They can get baptized in the future if they want to anyway.

Being terminally uncertain does not influence my major decisions in any way, I take decisions within the factual information available to me and leave the rest to probability (time and chance according to the bible).

Being sincerely uncertain is in no way a religion, it is simply a state of being which can either be rejected or accepted.

duduspace:

Accept that which is proven based on consistent evidence and is of utilitarian value, acknowledge the fact that some things are unexplained at present but will likely be as human knowledge evolves. It is basically an acknowledgement that mankind at present does not know everything.

I don't form an habit of going to church but I can go, it actually could be a source of cheap/free comedic entertainment you know?

Yes atimes, I do pray when I'm at my wits end but I acknowledge my prayers for what it is, a relic of my christian upbringing and just in case god is really out there (I also like having my bases covered).

I wouldn't baptise my children, even the christians aren't agreed on that. They can get baptized in the future if they want to anyway.

Being terminally uncertain does not influence my major decisions in any way, I take decisions within the factual information available to me and leave the rest to probability (time and chance according to the bible).

Being sincerely uncertain is in no way a religion, it is simply a state of being which can either be rejected or accepted.

Fair enough. . . . . ,

@Poster,

You might also learn from Nairaland.  A great deal has been discussed here about the question of religion and non-religion.  Without seeming immodest, I would suggest you go through some of my posts ( I have had other names such as therationa, tpaine and huxley)  and the post of others such as  Mazaje, duduspace, KAG, banom, toneyb and Bindex.  

And compare the post from the non-beleivers to those of the believers yourself and draw your own conclusion as to which viewpoints closely represents the nature of reality.

mazaje:

this is the biggest problem i have with most theists. . . .they believe that atheist are ALL EVIL people . do you need to believe in god to be a good person? goodness without god is not only good enough, but better than a religious morality because  belief in god does not guarantee morality all i know is that religious texts are too outdated to be useful in deciding contemporary ethical problems. . . . . .

So true, religion can play a role in moral life, but morality does not need religion. morality should be concerned with the common moral decencies and that is what humanist morality is. We have a sense of responsibility to human beings. We should rely on reason, not faith in ancient gods whose level of morality our societies have surpassed today.

huxley2:

@Poster,

You might also learn from Nairaland. A great deal has been discussed here about the question of religion and non-religion. Without seeming immodest, I would suggest you go through some of my posts ( I have had other names such as therationa, tpaine and huxley) and the post of others such as Mazaje, duduspace, KAG, banom, toneyb and Bindex.

And compare the post from the non-beleivers to those of the believers yourself and draw your own conclusion as to which viewpoints closely represents the nature of reality.

@ poster do what will make you most happy and what you feel will make you most comfortable as bindex said your happiness is what matters most. if belief in god will give you that comfort then try and meet all the people of god out there and see if they can help you, if you are TRULY sure of your agnostic leanings and you feel that it is enough to grant you hapiness then so be it. . . there are two different things here you have to ask yourself if you are just angry with the god you believe in or if you are truly convinced that there is no god. what ever it is do what will best make you happy. . . . . .

Blackspade just out of curiousity has the religion section in nairaland got anything to do with you losing your faith? Smiley

Good question.  I would like to believe there are many lurkers in this forum who are scared to state they are doubting thomases or whatever.


Yes you can be an Atheist and happy just like you can be a Theist and happy. 

Blackspade - Why should you lose faith in God just because yo think Christianity is flawed? Who says you cant become a tibetian buddhist 

My bet is that you become a Deist and then move towards Agnosticism

BLACKSPADE,
Dont u tink, u are makin mata wost 4 ur self? Y not c ur pastor & xplain dis, cos its rely impotant.
As 4 me, i wil urge u not 2 luz ur faith or dyvat 2 any religion, cos u are alredy in d best religion.
Jxt c it as a temtation dat wil b ova soon.
STAY STRONG IN GOD, COS HE IS D ANSA.
TANKS.

huxley2:

Pardon me, I agree my comment was inflammatory. But the comment specifically refers to religions (by which I mean theistic and atheistic religions) - althought it is less effective with atheistic religion because atheistic religion does not promise the kind of [b]existential consolations [/b]that the theistic religons do.

Oh my Lawd! Huxley, it turns out that you do know the meaning of the word existential afterall. I recall you denying that you knew what the word meant, and you kept asking what I meant by it. Na wa o!

duduspace:

@blackspade

I welcome you to the state of "Sincere Uncertainty", most of these bible toting types are in such a state as you are hence the reason for the different types of advice, as they are all individually defining their God (though starting from the same basic template).

Here are some of the roads ahead of you (which I don't need any prophetic gift to see) and the decision is all yours.

1. Convince yourself that God exists and become an establishment person like Lady
2. Convince yourself that God exists and become his apologist like Jesoul
3. Convince yourself that God exists and become an hypocrite like Davidylan
4. Convince yourself that God exists and become a fanatic like Abuzola
5. Convince yourself that God does not exist and become a theist's nightmare like Huxley, Mazaje and Bindex
6. Convince yourself that God does not exist but remain a generally nice guy like Chrisbenogor
7. Remain in the state of "Sincere Uncertainty" like myself and a few others (it is not so bad a state to be in as the religionists like to think and I stand corrected in declaring it the most honest state to be in as the others are either lying to themselves and others, being lied to, or making assumptions which may go either way)

e.t.c.

Whatever your decision is, you'll be the one to live with it, I wish you all the best and long live the religion forum.

I would have thought that 6 and 7 were the same. From what I can tell of Chris benogor there is a certain measure of Sincere Uncertainty (excuse the pun) in his belief. I think his word for it is agnostic atheism.

slightly offtopic,
so, does the christian god personally speak to christians?

i have to ask based on these quotes rom davidylan :

blackspade . . . let me be 100% honest with you. You're in the same boat i was in for a time. There have been times i have wondered if God truly exists or if he cares . . . i have had occasions where i was just too depressed to do anything but lie down and cry silently.

But each time i felt so down, a certain peace i cant understand floods my soul . . . in those moments when i prayed, i felt someone was listening . . that someone cared as long as i was willing to seek for His help.

did you have actual responses beyond your 'feeling'?

Can you ever be truly "happy" as an atheist? Believe you me at some point i started to ignore the church, packed my bibles neatly somewhere and tried to move on with a life without rules . . . turned out to be the saddest periods of my life.

so was your god speaking to you before this period or not? if he was , then i fail to understand why you would suddenly decide to 'ignore the church' . how do people who 'see the face of god' backslide?

In what is the poster loosing faith in,exactly?Is he loosing faith in the christian doctrines or in God?These are two different things.
You can loose faith in a belief system without having to loose faith in the existence of a creator.
And if you cross over to another belief system like islam,you are back to where you began,more like jumping from frying pan into fire.It won't take long before you'll want to exit yet again,because both religions are basically chips of the same old block.