Pastor AIO:

I would have thought that 6 and 7 were the same. From what I can tell of Chris benogor there is a certain measure of Sincere Uncertainty (excuse the pun) in his belief. I think his word for it is agnostic atheism.

You have a point, Chris is an agnostic atheist (he beleives God doesn't exist but also beleives yu can't prove a negative) while my belief system runs the gauntlet from weak agnosticism through Apathetic agnosticsm to ignosticism (I don't know if god exists and atimes don't even feel the question is relevant).

@blackspade
Another option is to convince yourself that God exists and set out to find him on your own like m_nwankwo

duduspace:

You have a point, Chris is an agnostic atheist (he beleives God doesn't exist but also beleives yu can't prove a negative) while my belief system runs the gauntlet from weak agnosticism through Apathetic agnosticsm to ignosticism (I don't know if god exists and atimes don't even feel the question is relevant).

@blackspade
Another option is to convince yourself that God exists and set out to find him on your own like m_nwankwo

I guess that is what most people are doing these days.

nobody told me that road would be easy
i dont beleive i made it this far
my whole life and i've been working so hard
and i know
nobody told me that the road would be easy
i cant beleive i made it this far


http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/n/nelly2785/nobodyknows942133.html

just keep on holding we all fish in this ugly pond of doubt. you are not alone

bro david, i want you to know i love you and i am proud to call you a brother
well done and God bless

jagunlabi:

In what is the poster loosing faith in,exactly?Is he loosing faith in the christian doctrines or in God?These are two different things.
You can loose faith in a belief system without having to loose faith in the existence of a creator.
And if you cross over to another belief system like islam,you are back to where you began,more like jumping from frying pan into fire.It won't take long before you'll want to exit yet again,because both religions are basically the same chips of the old block.

Solid post, A disbelief in Christianity doesn't mean you should lose faith in God.

Islam and christianity are from the same tree so i doubt u would find happiness there.

I want to agree with duduspace, you cant be sure of anything in life! religion has done more harm on humanity than good face it!

blackspade=topic=274559.msg3911756#msg3911756 date=1243082489:

My whole family believes in god and I do too, but recently (as in the last few months) I've been questioning myself with things such as: does god exist? what if religion is just one of the worlds longest running fairytales? why are there so many contradictions in the bible? am I wasting my time worshipping something I can't see? is christianity just a mechanism used by europeans to spread their idealogy and culture?

I want to believe in god, and recognize some of the things in life that we can't explain, and can only be explained by god, but sometimes I just don't know. I've been feeling a little depressed lately, so maybe that has something to do with it, I don't know. What the hell is wrong with me? Am I just going through a phase?

It's possible you've been experiencing 'God' vicariously, through other people. You have no personal knowledge of him in your life; you hear of him from your pastors or other religious people; they tell you what he's like and you have to take their word for it,because you don't know for yourself. And perhaps you've been thinking that that is what 'faith' and Christianity is, that's all there is to it. Perhaps you've lived for years this way, and are resigned to a lifetime of this sort of thing, second-hand knowledge of God and monotonous religious activity.

You do yourself a great disservice.
You're designed to seek God and know him for yourself,[/i]personally,intimately,like you know your family and closest friends. God is not some unknowable abstracism, or some harp-strumming ball of gas; He is a real person who talks and feels and loves and hates, and is powerful. He is a mystery in the sense that we don't have the equipment to fully comprehend him,but he is fully accessible to you and loves you and wants your love and companionship as only such a being can- profoundly.

He's there, independent of belief. It's easy to get lost in the spiritual babel the world's become, thanks to our cunning adversary and his tired deceptions. But God keeps finding us and reconciling us to himself. He's the only constant, a steady,turstworthy anchor, and you may hold on to him and be assured of safety.

It's very very clear you don't know God personally for yourself, only through others;perhaps through what your pastor preaches [i]alone. If you had personal knowledge of him, while you may have crises and many,many questions, you will never question his existence. It would be as absurd as questioning the existence of one's mother after years of knowing her and blossoming under her love. If you had only heard of a 'mother' and other people's experiences of one, but did not know one personally,only then might you question if such a thing exists.

God is right there, with you, all times. It is pride and self-sufficient arrogance and a tragic superiority that keeps most of us from reaching out to him when we so easily can. Try to wean yourself off dependence on other people's experiences of God and seek to know him intimately for yourself. Your knowledge of God must not,not,not,not,be purely academic. It simply mustn't. It would be like listening to what other others say and researching expert opinion and current studies on (pardon me) your mother,retreating behind human thought on the subject when she is right there.

If you seek him you will find him. It's impossible not to. You've probably been indoctrinated and spoon-fed religion and you're now feeling the hollowness and futility that comes from religious rituals while not knowing God personally. Religious rituals and practices, while they have a place, are not a substitute for God. You're supposed to find and know God first, or let Him find you; what you do after that in the name of service and worship will proceed naturally,happily and willingly from your heart. It won't be empty,monotonous, hollow 'duty'.

Many Christians go through what you're going through at one time or the other. I'm sorry you are and wish you didn't have to, but there it is. It's important you know what you believe, and that you experience God for yourself,and then nothing can take Him away from you,ever. Hold on and don't give up.

Mad_Max:

You do yourself a great disservice.
You're designed to seek God and know him for yourself,[/i]personally,intimately,like you know your family and closest friends. God is not some unknowable abstracism, or some harp-strumming ball of gas;[b] He is a real person who talks and feels and loves and hates, and is powerful. [/b]He is a mystery in the sense that we don't have the equipment to fully comprehend him,but he is fully accessible to you and loves you and wants your love and companionship as only such a being can- profoundly.

Please how do you know all these? You started by telling the poster that he has no personal knowledge of him in his life  you said he hears about him from his pastors or other religious people, only to turn around and repeat what YOU have been hearing from your own pastors and other religious people. Has any god ever come to you and told you that he loves, hates and is powerful? Do you not rely on the words of others who have written about this god and agree with what they have written?

He's there, independent of belief. It's easy to get lost in the spiritual babel the world's become, thanks to our cunning adversary and his tired deceptions. But God keeps finding us and reconciling us to himself. He's the only constant, a steady,turstworthy anchor, and you may hold on to him and be assured of safety.

How do you know this? There is no evidence to show that those that believe in god are more secured or safer than those that do not believe in a god is there?

It's very very clear you don't know God personally for yourself, only through others;perhaps through what your pastor preaches [i]alone. If you had personal knowledge of him, while you may have crises and many,many questions, you will never question his existence. It would be as absurd as questioning the existence of one's mother after years of knowing her and blossoming under her love. If you had only heard of a 'mother' and other people's experiences of one, but did not know one personally,only then might you question if such a thing exists. 

You also rely on others for the knowledge of what ever god you possess. You see your mother, but have YOU ever seen god?

God is right there, with you, all times. It is pride and self-sufficient arrogance and a tragic superiority that keeps most of us from reaching out to him when we so easily can. Try to wean yourself off dependence  on other people's experiences of God and seek to know him intimately for yourself. Your knowledge of God must not,not,not,not,be purely academic. It simply mustn't. It would be like listening to what other others say and researching expert opinion and current studies on (pardon me) your mother,retreating behind human thought on the subject when she is right there.

This is only an assumption and a personal opinion.

If you seek him you will find him. It's impossible not to. You've probably been indoctrinated and spoon-fed religion and you're now feeling the hollowness and futility that comes from religious rituals while not knowing God personally. Religious rituals and practices, while they have a place, are not a substitute for God. You're supposed to find and know God first, or let Him find you; what you do after that in the name of service and worship will proceed naturally,happily and willingly from your heart. It won't be empty,monotonous, hollow 'duty'.

Many Christians go through what you're going through at one time or the other. I'm sorry you are and wish you didn't have to, but there it is. It's important you know what you believe, and that you experience God for yourself,and then nothing can take Him away from you,ever. Hold on and don't give up.

There is a great difference between saying that "their might be a god" and that "there is a god and this is what he says". All what you have said are YOUR own PERSONAL opinion, a Muslim, Hindu, Jew or Buddhist can say the same thing too.

Er-nowhere did I state my faith is based on hearsay. It is not. You merely assumed that, and you're free to. Many Christians have a personal relationship with God, and know him and his power and grace in their lives; it's nothing new. He reveals himself. But there are Christians who don't know him personally,but 'borrow' from others. I'm telling the poster to not rely on hearsay,but know God for himself too; God isn't to be found in empty religious rituals. He takes the emptiness away and gives it all meaning.

You've gotten the erroneous impression I'm interested in debating my personal convictions and spiritual experiences, and the equally wrong impression explanations are due you, from me.I gave answer to the guy's post,as others have done. If he has questions about anything in my post, I'll be happy to elucidate.
You're not asking me anything in your post, you're telling me.
Run along now, Bindyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Mad_Max:

Er-nowhere did I state my faith is based on hearsay. It is not. You merely assumed that, and you're free to. Many Christians have a personal relationship with God, and know him and his power and grace in their lives; it's nothing new. He reveals himself. But there are Christians who don't know him personally,but 'borrow' from others. I'm telling the poster to not rely on hearsay,but know God for himself too; God isn't to be found in empty religious rituals. He takes the emptiness away and gives it all meaning.

You've gotten the erroneous impression I'm interested in debating my personal convictions and spiritual experiences, and the equally wrong impression explanations are due you, from me.I gave answer to the guy's post,as others have done. If he has questions about anything in my post, I'll be happy to elucidate.
You're not asking me anything in your post, you're telling me.
Run along now, Bindyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

How do they know him? Have they met God, spoken audibly with him, felt him, touched him, smelt him, tasted him?

Do they know him in the same sense that a madman "knows" his "demons"?

huxley2:

How do they know him? Have they met God, spoken audibly with him, felt him, touched him, smelt him, tasted him?

Do they know him in the same sense that a madman "knows" his "demons"?

. Catholics claim they speack to god and he speaks back to them , protestants also claim they speak to god and he speaks back to them, white garment wearing christians claim the speak to god and he also speaks to them, evangelical christians also make the same claim, but the problem is that they all do not agree with each other on who the god of the bible really is. but they all claim they speak to the same god who they disagree with is nature and he speaks back to all of them.

@duduspace
Great points, the way I see it this dude has only got one of those 6 or 7 choices you gave him, maybe two if he is a hybrid like me
@pastor aio
You no even dey ask of your guy self, na wa oh! How body?
@poster
I have got good news and bad news, good news is your curiosity has been triggered, bad news is its gonna take a lot more for you to dismiss your belief in God than to go back to your former beliefs.
In my personal journey I have found that I have a lot less to doubt since I dropped the whole christianity charade. Doubt arises when you do not trust the outcome of a particular event or scientifically when the probability of that event occuring or being true is very low , one of the fun things about being me is that I rarely doubt stuff, mostly because things are believe in are well grounded in reality. I wake in the morning go to my car put the keys in the ignition and turn it and expect it to start, if it doesn't there will be a perfectly logical reason why it did not.
There is no logical reason for me to believe in a God, none whatsoever. That does not mean I don't have doubts, like duduspace pointed out the uncertain part of me which I like to believe stems from my years of conditioning as a christian tries to get the better of me, for instance I happened to go through certain medical procedures this year and just as I was being prepared a nurse asked if I would like to pray with her, for the first time since I was an out of the closet atheist I thought for a few moments the potential risks of the procedure became all too overwhelming and I realised then that this was what people faced every day of their lives, in that moment I saw just how easily anyone can be sucked up into the vortex of the need to believe a diety gave two wags of a monkey tail if they came back alive from that table.
But wait, in just these few secs that this passed through my mind yet another child has died in south africa from the hiv it contracted from the parents, the poor child didn't get the chance to even unhook a girls bra, drink beer and do all the fun things in life, I looked at myself and really realised that this human body could not have been the work of perfect designer, it was just too flawed, at that point life by accident made the most sense to me after all if God created the world he surely is responsible for the bacteria, toxins, viruses, parasites and everything that makes man sick.
I looked around at the high tech equipment in the theatre, they wouldn't be there if anyone on this planet believed a God would fix me.
So I turned to her and said with a smile I don't think any of that is necessary lets pray the surgeon didn't quarrel with his wife this morning, my odds are way better and just before she went into the whole God loves you thing I told her it was really ok and she should not bother.
So my dear even some atheists doubt sometimes and I choose to believe that the white light people sometimes see, they're all just chemical reactions that take place when the brain shuts down, There's no conclusive science.
I choose the outcome that makes the most sense to me.
Cheers.

Chrisbenogor:

@pastor aio
You no even dey ask of your guy self, na wa oh! How body?

E dey inside cloth jare. If I no ask of you e no mean say I no think of you. I don notice say you just scarce for here for the last few weeks. Hope say no wahala. Maybe na all the beer you dey drink and all the bra you dey commot, 'and all those other fun things'.

huxley2:

How do they know him? Have they met God, spoken audibly with him, felt him, touched him, smelt him, tasted him?
Do they know him in the same sense that a madman "knows" his "demons"?

You'd be surprised.
My.Religion doth bring out the poet in thee. In truth thou hast found thine niche. Wax on.

bindex:

. Catholics claim they speack to god and he speaks back to them , protestants also claim they speak to god and he speaks back to them, white garment wearing christians claim the speak to god and he also speaks to them, evangelical christians also make the same claim, but the problem is that they all do not agree with each other on who the god of the bible really is. but they all claim they speak to the same god who they disagree with is nature and he speaks back to all of them.

You're absolutely correct. There are a staggering variety of claims people make in the name of religion.

Bindex, you used to be a Muslim, I think? You can't possibly imagine religious experience is interchangeable,can you? You can't think a Christian losing his faith is the same as a Muslim losing his faith in Allah, or a Hindu losing his fath in Buddhism? If I were to say, "I'm losing my faith', and a Tibetan monk were to state the same, do you think we would be saying the same thing? That we have travelled the same religious path and are coming from the same place? You can't possibly think that. You can register what the poster is saying,but you can't understand his religious experience, the futility and unhappiness he feels in spiritual terms, because you didn't travel the same religious path he did. Just as I can't fully grasp why you lost your faith in Allah, because I'm not Muslim and can't pretend to know what you went through, though I can sympathise and truly do. I'm Christian. He's Christian. I understand what he's saying. I've[i] been[/i] him.

I know it's maddening, but some things are spiritually discerned and you simply won't get it until you experience the same. Your objection to God and spirituality being an individual (personal) experience is meaningless. God deals with humanity on an individual basis because,because all of humanity isn't a single organism with a single brain and consciousness.We're complex individuals,each with a heart and brain and life and choices,navigating complex physical, mental and spiritual terrain. How else can God with us but as individuals? That aspect of things may not meet with your approval but then, it doesn't have to. You dismiss personal experience as if life and everything in it is experienced any other way.

We have choices, as individuals. I choose to believe. You choose not to. You exercise your individual right to not believe,then turn around to complain others who exercise that same right and believe,have only individual spiritual experiences to furnish.Come now.

Who on earth is bsanya and why are all my posts bearing that moniker today ke?It's Mad_Max. Seun, AIO, why am I logged in into this person's account when I log in?

Testing 1,2

bsanya:

Who on earth is bsanya and why are all my posts bearing that moniker today ke?It's Mad_Max. Seun, AIO, why am I logged in into this person's account when I log in?

I don't know what AIO could possibly have to do with it. However If I could be of any assistance in this or any other matter I will not hesitate to be of service.

Let me share an experience with you,there was a time that I was heartbroken by someone, I really loved him and I wept almost everyday after the breakup. It even got to the extent that while taking my bath in the toilet and I recall anything about him I would burst into tears. Right there in the toilet I knelt down and prayed to God asking for forgiveness, I confessed all my sins and he forgave me. That was the beginning of a new day for me, from that day, the Lord has been my friend, my father, my love, my advicer, my all. You might not understand what I went through cos I am a very emotional person, it was like I was brought out from a fake love to a REAL LOVE.
Please, dont give up on God, dont loose your faith. Having God is the best thing that can ever happen to anyone. God is LOVE.

bsanya:

Bindex, you used to be a Muslim, I think? You can't possibly imagine religious experience is interchangeable,can you? You can't think a Christian losing his faith is the same as a Muslim losing his faith in Allah, or a Hindu losing his fath in Buddhism? If I were to say, "I'm losing my faith', and a Tibetan monk were to state the same, do you think we would be saying the same thing? That we have travelled the same religious path and are coming from the same place? You can't possibly think that. You can register what the poster is saying,but you can't understand his religious experience, the futility and unhappiness he feels in spiritual terms, because you didn't travel the same religious path he did. Just as I can't fully grasp why you lost your faith in Allah, because I'm not Muslim and can't pretend to know what you went through, though I can sympathise and truly do. I'm Christian. He's Christian. I understand what he's saying. I've[i] been[/i] him.

I was a muslim for the 1st 14 years of my life and later converted to Christianity after my dad died. I was a Christian for over a decade. I lost my faith in the bible and the god it was talking about when reality hit me real hard. It was a TRAGIC experience but I think looking back its kind of good that it happened, I know understand life and people better than before when i was living like a blind man groping in darkness for what is not there. I understand what it means to lose your faith, I was once in the posters shoes, I creid for weeks but as things became clearer to me I was happy that I no longer held those beliefs. I know how Painful it is that is why I encouraged the poster to hold unto his beliefs if it will make him happier.

I know it's maddening, but some things are spiritually discerned and you simply won't get it until you experience the same. Your objection to God and spirituality being an individual (personal) experience is meaningless. God deals with humanity on an individual basis because,because all of humanity isn't a single organism with a single brain and consciousness.We're complex individuals,each with a heart and brain and life and choices,navigating complex physical, mental and spiritual terrain. How else can God with us but as individuals? That aspect of things may not meet with your approval but then, it doesn't have to. You dismiss personal experience as if life and everything in it is experienced any other way.

There we go again with all the label . I don't want to go on with all this circular motion. Can you tell me what it means to spiritually discern something? I don't dismiss personal experience but I dismiss personal and irrational claims. I understand the need for a personal god, it has a lot of psychological benefits. As you said we're complex individuals,each with a heart and brain and life and choices,navigating complex physical, mental and spiritual terrain hence the need for a personal god whom we all create in our own image to serve as a shoulder to cry on when we need help because we are almost always in need of one help or the other. The god hypothesis is just a means to an end.

We have choices, as individuals. I choose to believe. You choose not to. You exercise your individual right to not believe,then turn around to complain others who exercise that same right and believe,have only individual spiritual experiences to furnish.Come now.

The believers are the ones that do that, go to Nigeria and tell the believers that you do not share their beliefs and see how they will treat you. Your message should go to the believers not us the unbelivers that are trying to show the believers that it is a very rational and normal thing to not believe in the bible, the god it talks about and most of its ridiculous, unverifiable assertions that were just made out of thin air.

Yehmey:

Let me share an experience with you,there was a time that I was heartbroken by someone, I really loved him and I wept almost everyday after the breakup. It even got to the extent that while taking my bath in the toilet and I recall anything about him I would burst into tears. Right there in the toilet I knelt down and prayed to God asking for forgiveness, I confessed all my sins and he forgave me. That was the beginning of a new day for me, from that day, the Lord has been my friend, my father, my love, my advicer, my all. You might not understand what I went through cos I am a very emotional person, it was like I was brought out from a fake love to a REAL LOVE.
Please, dont give up on God, dont loose your faith. Having God is the best thing that can ever happen to anyone. God is LOVE.

You will expect those that have "God" to be happier or live more comfortable lives than those that do not have a god but instead the reverse is the case. By the way in the world that we live in their is no difference between those that have a god and those that do not, harm and evil affects us all despite all the claims of those that have a god that their god will always protect them from harm or evil. I don't want to minimise your experince but i find it a little funny when you make forceful assertions like "God is love". How do you know this? Is it because you came to the realization that it is better to put your trust in some imaginary being than in humans?

Chrisbenogor:

I looked around at the high tech equipment in the theatre, they wouldn't be there if anyone on this planet believed a God would fix me.

If prayer works the nurse will NEVER allow you to go through the knife. I hope that you are now feeling better and stronger? I wish you all the best out there.

bindex:

I was a muslim for the 1st 14 years of my life and later converted to Christianity after my dad died. I was a Christian for over a decade. I lost my faith in the bible and the god it was talking about when reality hit me real hard. It was a TRAGIC experience but I think looking back its kind of good that it happened, I know understand life and people better than before when i was living like a blind man groping in darkness for what is not there. I understand what it means to lose your faith, I was once in the posters shoes, I creid for weeks but as things became clearer to me I was happy that I no longer held those beliefs. I know how Painful it is that is why I encouraged the poster to hold unto his beliefs if it will make him happier.

You cant understand what it is to lose your faith when you never had it in the first place. What you had was RELIGION . . . you never had a faith. We have interchanged both words so much that they have now come to represent the same thing . . . they simply are not.

Religion is an outward show, a meaningless label . . . faith is a heart-felt experience.

@Poster

To believe or not believe in God is a decision that only you can make. Advices and opinions of others may be well meant but they will not solve your seeming problem. The search for God is personal and my view is that you should only believe what you have personally experienced. What others tell you may be true but unless you have personally experienced it, it will not help you. Doubt is very essential for both material and spiritual development. Thus you should not dismiss or ignore your doubt but wrestle with them, confront them until you gain clarity and inner peace. To ignore or dismiss ones doubt especially in spiritual matters  will only lead to blind faith. You should not believe in God because you want to, rather you should because you have personally experienced God both in what is physically visible and invinsible. No true belief in God can arise without personal experience of God and his will.
Thus if one honestly has not personally experienced the existence of God, then it is correct not to believe until you have the personal evidence. I wish you strenghth in your search. Stay blessed.

davidylan:

You cant understand what it is to lose your faith when you never had it in the first place. What you had was RELIGION . . . you never had a faith. We have interchanged both words so much that they have now come to represent the same thing . . . they simply are not.

Religion is an outward show, a meaningless label . . . faith is a heart-felt experience.

How do you know this?

bindex:

How do you know this?

If you are truly in Christ you never feel like a blind man groping in the dark.

I repeat again - "I am a christian" is not simply going to church. It is a heart-to-heart relationship with Christ. You never had that experience . . .

davidylan:

If you are truly in Christ you never feel like a blind man groping in the dark. I repeat again - "I am a christian" is not simply going to church. It is a heart-to-heart relationship with Christ. You never had that experience . . .

I never had that feeling when I was a Christian, I only realized that I was groping in the dark when I left the Christian faith. Did you care to understand what I was saying or did you just misconstrue what I wrote for one reason or the other? If I wasn't a Christian back then NO body in this world can call himself a Christian. What you call heart to heart relationship with Christ is what I call make believe and groping in the dark. I know we will always disagree on that but to say that I never had the experince of what you call a heart to heart relationship with Christ is to not know what you are talking about. I onced live that life and experinced everything that comes along with it,I later realized that it was all a farce. Non of it is real. Its all a state of make believe.

bindex:

I never had that feeling when I was a Christian, I only realized that I was groping in the dark when I left the Christian faith. Did you care to understand what I was saying or did you just misconstrue what I wrote for one reason or the other? If I wasn't a Christian back then NO body in this world can call himself a Christian. What you call heart to heart relationship with Christ is what I call make believe and groping in the dark. I know we will always disagree on that but to say that I never had the experince of what you call a heart to heart relationship with Christ is to not know what you are talking about. I onced live that life and experinced everything that comes along with it,I later realized that it was all a farce. Non of it is real. Its all a state of make believe.

I read through your write-up thoroughly Bindex, that was why i came to my own conclusion. I stand by my point - if you thought the heart-felt faith experience was a farce it was simply because you never truly experienced it. You simply played the typical nigerian christian game of make-believe. I see many "christians" today quote the bible endlessly, are pretty quick to come up with "name it and claim it" quotes, pray endlessly (always for material blessings) but deep down they do not have a deep connection with the Father.

the Christian walk is not about you, it is all about Christ. It is not about your feelings, it is about His command and His will. I am not perfect, there have been times i was tempted to take a step back and live like every other normal atheist but having tasted what it truly means to love God selflessly, to be able to talk to Him and listen to Him talk back, to be able to take silly problems to Him to solve and be amazed when He responds . . . i dont need to be told this isnt make-believe.

It may be a farce to you . . . you are surely entitled to your opinion

davidylan:

I read through your write-up thoroughly Bindex, that was why i came to my own conclusion. I stand by my point - if you thought the heart-felt faith experience was a farce it was simply because you never truly experienced it. You simply played the typical nigerian christian game of make-believe. I see many "christians" today quote the bible endlessly, are pretty quick to come up with "name it and claim it" quotes, pray endlessly (always for material blessings) but deep down they do not have a deep connection with the Father.

the Christian walk is not about you, it is all about Christ. It is not about your feelings, it is about His command and His will. I am not perfect, there have been times i was tempted to take a step back and live like every other normal atheist but having tasted what it truly means to love God selflessly, to be able to talk to Him and listen to Him talk back, to be able to take silly problems to Him to solve and be amazed when He responds . . . i dont need to be told this isnt make-believe.

It may be a farce to you . . . you are surely entitled to your opinion

Your conclusion is very wrong I must say. The whole experince might be true to you, you are also entitled to your own opinion.

bindex:

Your conclusion is very wrong I must say. The whole experince might be true to you, you are also entitled to your own opinion.

It has to be, if it were true (which it is) it would destroy the very foundation of your argument. I see your point.

the strongest "argument" of the atheist is that he was once a christian and it was all a sham. Same argument you hear from muslims . . . what really is new?

davidylan:

It has to be, if it were true (which it is) it would destroy the very foundation of your argument. I see your point.

the strongest "argument" of the atheist is that he was once a christian and it was all a sham. Same argument you hear from muslims . . . what really is new?

Why do you keep moving around in a circle? What is the foundation of my argument? I said Christianity is a farce it is now up to you to prove that it is not. How do you know that I was never a Christian? Why am I even arguing with a deluded person that believes that he alone knows what it means to be a Christian. I was a Christian and now I am not, what makes you think I never was one?

@ Bindex

Theist are very funny people . I have a friend who left Islam about a year ago, All what her Muslim friends had to tell her was that she was never truly a Muslim because if she was one she would never had left the faith. The same rubbish davidylan is throwing at you is the same thing they were throwing at hear when she came out. Why is it hard for theist to accept that people no longer believe in all the make belief,feel good and lalala tales of their faiths?

O ye of little faith. Have no fear. Try as much as possible to get closer to God. Pray more, read your bible more, etcet

toneyb:

@ Bindex

Theist are very funny people . I have a friend who left Islam about a year ago, All what her Muslim friends had to tell her was that she was never truly a Muslim because if she was one she would never had left the faith. The same rubbish davidylan is throwing at you is the same thing they were throwing at hear when she came out. Why is it hard for theist to accept that people no longer believe in all the make belief,feel good and lalala tales of their faiths?

Lalala tales indeed. Tales by moonlight.