Who they claimed to be:
• Muhammad – The Final Prophet
o Sura 33:40 says, “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal [the last part] of the prophets.”

• Jesus – The Son of God
o Matthew 26:63-64 says, “And the high priest said to Him, ‘I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘It is as you said.’”

Knows the thoughts of men:
• Muhammad – Did not know the thoughts of men
o Sura 11:31 says, “And I say not to you that I have the treasures of Allah; and I know not the unseen”

• Jesus – Knows the thoughts of men
o Matthew 9:4 says, “But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, ‘Why do you think evil in your hearts?’”
o Revelation 2:23 says, “and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts.”

Advocate with the Father:
• Muhammad – Not our Advocate with the Father
o Sura 9:80 says, “Ask forgiveness for them or ask not for them. Even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times, Allah will not forgive them. This is because they disbelieve in Allah and His Messenger. And Allah guides not the transgressing people.”

• Jesus – Our Advocate with the Father
o 1 John 2:1-2 says, “And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but also for the whole world.”

Relationship to God:
• Muhammad – A “Servant” to Allah
o Sura 2:23 says, And if there is anything that perturbs your mind or makes you skeptical about (the truth and authenticity of) what We have revealed to our Servant (Muhammad), then produce a single Sura which is like this”

• Jesus – One with the Father
o John 10:30 says “I and My Father are one.”

Performed Miracles:
• Muhammad – Did not perform miracles
o Sura 29:50-51 says, “And they say: Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Signs are with Allah only, and I am only a plain warner.”




• Jesus – Performed miracles
o Matthew 15:30 says, “great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus’ feet, and He healed them.”

Forgiveness or Revenge:
• Muhammad - Taught revenge
o Sura 2:194 says, “The sacred month for the sacred month, and retaliation is allowed in sacred things. Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you.”

• Jesus – Taught forgiveness
o Matthew 5:38-39 says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your cheek, turn the other to him also.”

Sinless or Sinful:
• Muhammad – A sinful man
o Sura 47:19 – “So know that there is no god but Allah and ask protection for thy sin and for the believing men and the believing women.”

• Jesus – Was sinless
o 1 Peter 2:22 speaking of Christ says, “Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth.”

Healed the Blind:
• Muhammad – Turned away from the blind
o Sura 80:1-2 says, “He frowned and turned away, because the blind man came to him.”

• Jesus – Healed the blind
o Like 18:35-43 says, “a certain blind man sat by the road begging…Jesus said, ‘What do you want Me to do for you?’ He said, ‘Lord, that I may receive my sight.’ Then Jesus said to him, ‘Receive your sight…’ And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him.”

Taught Monogamy or Polygamy:
• Muhammad – Taught and practiced polygamy
o Sura 4:3 says, “And if you fear that you cannot do justice to orphans, marry such women as seem good to you, two, or three, or four”

• Jesus – Taught monogamy
o Matthew 19:5-6 says, “[Jesus answered], and said ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife (singular)…So then, they are no longer two but one flesh.’”

Saves or Destroys Lives:
• Muhammad – Called to destroy peoples lives
o Sura 48:16 "Say to the sedentary Arabs who stay behind, "You will be invited to face powerful people and to fight them, unless they submit. If you obey, GOD will reward you with a generous recompense. But if you turn away again, as you did in the past, He will requite you with a painful retribution."

• Jesus – Came to save lives
o Luke 9:56 says, “For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”

Forced or Free to Accept Their Message:
• Muhammad – Forced people to accept his message
o Sura 9:29 says, “Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, not follow the Religion of Truth, out of those ho have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

• Jesus – People are free to accept Jesus’ message or not
o Luke 10:10-11 says, “But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, ‘The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.’”

Followers will Live or Die:
• Muhammad – Died and his followers will die
o Sura 39:30 says, “You (Muhammad) will surely die, just like they will die.”

• Jesus – Is the life and His follower will live
o John 11:25 says, “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.’”

Teaching Superiority of Men over Women:
• Muhammad – Taught men are superior over women
o Sura 4:34 says, “Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God hath gifted the one above the other”

• Jesus – Taught all are created equal in God’s sight
o Galatians 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek…slave nor free…male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Called People to Themselves:
• Muhammad – Was reproved or admonished for sending people away
o Sura 6:52 says, “And do not dismiss those who implore their Lord day and night, devoting themselves to Him alone. You are not responsible for their reckoning, nor are they responsible for your reckoning. If you dismiss them, you will be a transgressor.”

• Jesus – Called people to come to Him
o Matthew 11:28-30 says, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”


Teaching on Divorce:
• Muhammad – Preached divorce
o Sura 2:230 says, “And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. (In that case) there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry”

• Jesus – Taught Marriage was binding and against divorce
o Matthew 5:32 says, “But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except for sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.”

Read the Word of God:
• Muhammad – Was illiterate
o Sura 7:157 says, “Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write”

• Jesus – Read the Word of God
o Luke 4:16-21 says, “He went to the synagogue…and stood to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He opened the book, He found the place where it is written: [Jesus then read from Isaiah 61:1,2].”

Satanic Influence:
• Muhammad – Satan had influence over him
o Sura 6:68 says, “If you see those who mock our revelations, you shall avoid them until they delve into another subject. If the devil causes you to forget, then, as soon as you remember, do not sit with such evil people.”

• Jesus – Satan had NO influence over Jesus
o John 14:30 says, “I cannot speak with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. But he has no power over me.”

Associated with Demons
• Muhammad – Associated with demons
o Sura 46:29 says, “And We sent to you a small number of Jinn [demon], in order to let them listen to the Quran. So when they arrived there, they said: "Pay attention." Then, when it was finished, they returned to their people, to warn them.”

• Jesus – Cast out demons
o Matthew 4:24 says, “Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.”


But my most curious question is can mortal- begotten be greater than an imortal-begotten,

cos(Quran 21:91) “And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed (a spirit) into her through Our angel, and We made her and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.”

And we all know Muhammad was begotten by abdullahi, so what is your opinion on the matter, who is better, an even if Jesus claimed to be God, or he was dietified, don't you think he worth it, cos major reasons

1. he was not born of man
2. he is still alive

What is wrong with these islamists?
I have never seen a more cowardly and ignorant group of people!
This thread has been up for a while and not ONE muslim has come to defend and debate his religion.
The shyness and lack of knowledge these muslims exhibit is shocking.
These are valid questions,but they prefer to debate in stupid threads like "is there anything wrong with up barca'' -what kind of question is that?
The ones that claim to have insight like lagosboy and blabs787 only come alive when discussing 4 wives in islam.it doesnt take a genius to see that erection = wisdom in islam.

@Tudor,u have turned yourself to a clown. I saw the thread but want you to help me ask your brethren Todak a question and when he does that, I would come in with more Quranic and Biblical verses coupled with explanations. I read in the biblical verses,statement that are not Jesus'.You know christians say Jesus is God,help me ask Todak if God Jesus is also God of the Old Testament? Thanks and looking forward to reading from your brother Todak and I would come in to attend to his post.

Haba!
Instead of you to proclaim you dont know the answer,you're busy diverting the thread.
Why cant you reply the post now? Why later? You wanna wait till friday so you can ask your imam.
If you want your question answered,go start the thread in the other section and you'll get overwhelming response,unlike in this DEAD islamic section.

Haba!
Instead of you to proclaim you dont know the answer,you're busy diverting the thread.
Why cant you reply the post now? Why later? You wanna wait till friday so you can ask your imam.
If you want your question answered,go start the thread in the other section and you'll get overwhelming response,unlike in this DEAD islamic section.

@tudor

Tùdor:

Haba!
Instead of you to proclaim you dont know the answer,you're busy diverting the thread.
Why cant you reply the post now? Why later? You wanna wait till friday so you can ask your imam.
If you want your question answered,go start the thread in the other section and you'll get overwhelming response,unlike in this DEAD islamic section.

Just lower your emotion, the argument is very easy for muslims to debate coz they belief both in Jesus and Muhammad. Analogically, in the court of law, between plaintiff and defendant, there are always witnesses. Here now, there are Bible and Quran. I wish my good brother @todak should not go out of the scope in order to expose liars. More copy is expected of him from your usual sources.

@todak,

Your presentation is just a repetition of what has been discussed over and over before you came on NL. The fact you want this conversation mainly from Bible and Quran will even make it a failure coz it will vigorously expose how corrupted the bible is with all insults to God's prophets even Jesus that you projected here as your god. Moreover, from your arguement point of view, it clearly evidenced that you are not a good researcher of  the truth, rather a plagiarizer of others job non objectively. I mean, you colud have scrutinize your write up to free of falacies which have been debunked by several muslim scholars with many evidence from Quran and Hadiths. I believe you will still go back to the source to re-equiped your writes up rather than just copy and paste information.

First, jesus in Islam is a well respected prophet and messanger of Allah sent to Isrealite. His miraculous birth is admittedly similar to that of prophet Adam created from just ordinary dust(Qr3:59).

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah (God) is that of Adam; He created him from dust then said to him: 'Be', and he was."

Moreover, Jesus performs miracles right from childhood according to the Quran coz he spoken while he was still a craddle. So, since the Quran was brought to us through prophet Muhammad and Jesus and his mother was highly placed, treated with so much respect than what you have in the bible.
If we agree to rule out the possibility of Muhammad not a prophet, confirm by your first statement; "claimed to be" then the next logical conclussion will clearly shows that Muhammad and Jesus will actually be true friend if both of them are to be alive today. Then, the arguement will remains either with you or the corrupted words of the bible. Logically, a typical muslim will be a friend to Jesus and Muhammad coz he believe in both of them. I personaly believes in Jesus and Muhammad and sometimes I dressed like them, even my wife and my sisters always dress like Jesus' mother. Have you ever read a chapter of the Quran known as Maryam, dedicated to mother of Jesus. If Muhammad is Jesus enemy or he brought a different message, dont you think he would have named it after his mother. If you claimed to believe in Jesus as your god which he never claimed to be, I believe reverse will be the case on the day of judgement because he will never look at your side.

Now, examine the ploy of your arguement proves extremely feeble to muslims, because, it claimed one to be superior to another. It is unacceptible for muslims to either chose between Muhammad or Jesus because both are inspired by God and religiously you shouldn't distinguish between them. Allah says:

We have sent you (Muhammad) inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. Of some apostles We have already told you the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- Qr 4:163-164

Analysis of your claim is baseless, which means you will still copy more information from your source to have a point because there are still more for you to copy or otherwise engage with us(muslims) in rational conversation to share what you and I believe. Admittedly Muhammad is a prophet,will the arguement not save to be rationally base on what you claimed jesus is, either you accept him as a god or son of God or a prophet considering he possessed the qualities you mentioned:

Jesus – The Son of God
Jesus – Knows the thoughts of men
Jesus – Our Advocate with the Father
Jesus – Performed miracles
Jesus – Taught forgiveness
Jesus – Was sinless
Jesus – Healed the blind
Jesus – One with the Father
Jesus – Taught monogamy 
Jesus – Came to save lives
Jesus – Cast out demons 
Jesus – Satan had NO influence over Jesus
Jesus – Read the Word of God
Jesus – Taught Marriage was binding and against divorce
Jesus – Called people to come to Him
Jesus – People are free to accept Jesus’ message or not
Jesus – Is the life and His follower will live

Babs no mind todak. Is their claim not; Jesus=God=God of the old testament?
@topic.
Almost all your points about Muhammad(S.A.w.) are false, the points that are not false were twisted and made to look like something entirely else. And the fact that your Bible has been so severely adulterated does little to support the 'facts' you drew from it.

Babs no mind todak. Is their claim not; Jesus=God=God of the old testament?
@topic.
Almost all your points about Muhammad(S.A.w.) are false, the points that are not false were twisted and made to look like something entirely else. And the fact that your Bible has been so severely adulterated does little to support the 'facts' you drew from it.

@littleb
thats more like it,wonder what took you so long. Where's babs with his answer if i may ask?
@fells
whats with the damn flowers? They're so out of place in the islamic section. A picture of a beheading or suicide bombing is more like it.

@Todak:  Jesus Vs Muhammad Using The Bible And The Quran « on: Yesterday at 09:29:33 AM »  

Who they claimed to be:
•   Muhammad – The Final Prophet
o   Sura 33:40 says, “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal [the last part] of the prophets.”

•   Jesus – The Son of God
o   Matthew 26:63-64 says, “And the high priest said to Him, ‘I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!’ Jesus said to him, ‘It is as you said.’”

And in Surah Taubah, Allah expresses Muhammad to be "mercy and forgiveness" to mankind. Read it. This is statement of Al Rahman. Further, you will find in many verses of the Quran where Allah confirms Muhammad (AS) as the one sent to "all mankind" and Allah says He is enough as a Witness. And in Surah Saffat, verse 6 expresses that Jesus was sent to "confirm or reaffirm" authentic taurah, bringing back the people to it. No wonder he said that he did not come to destroy or abolish the Prophets and their Laws and rules (Taurah and sabur). Further you will see in that verse from the Quran where Jesus other duty was to announce the coming of the Prophet known as Ahmad; means of comfort or reassurance. I guess that means "Comforter."

And Jesus saying that it is "as you said" did not address the question as clearly as anyone may hope, when he was asked. It demanded a "YES" or "NO" answer, since he was put under oath. Please we are not dealing in ambiguity here, considering the over whelming evidences from the Taurah that God; Yahweh/Jehovah/Eloi (Allah) from the Old Israeli Prophets, starting from Israel himself; Jacob to Zachariah and son John that there is always no son or children for the "completely Independent and Unique Creator" .

And from Jesus, we have abundant verses from the Injil that go against your mishmmash conclusion of "son of God!" Jesus called himself man, son of man (Mary in this case since she is the only carry for "man" here, prophet and Messiah to his people only, since he limited his mission to his own people. I wonder if a God will run for his life to Egypt as a youth under the authority of his mother and "fake step father; since you still refer to Mary as virgin." (A virgin is a person who never voluntarity have sexual intercourse with a man. The presence of hymen is irrelevant, since it could be broken through exercises/ or reattached; ask Dr. Nwando), or as an adult? Couldn't he have been able to just make it impossible for those after his life to get it, since he "is" God? Or does God have just one life, like us humans, His creation? If God dies who takes care of the earth and heavens and all things? By the way I intentionally leave the raising of death that he performed, just one time as a way for you to come back, whereby I shall ask you if he was truly capable more than the one time as a sign, why didn't the community swamp him with their deads and why anyone remained in the cementary during his time? And why did the only person he raised not remain, still on earth and why didn't he make people to die, enmasse?

Knows the thoughts of men:
•   Muhammad – Did not know the thoughts of men
o   Sura 11:31 says, “And I say not to you that I have the treasures of Allah; and I know not the unseen”

•   Jesus – Knows the thoughts of men
o   Matthew 9:4 says, “But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, ‘Why do you think evil in your hearts?’”
o   Revelation 2:23 says, “and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts.”

I wonder why when asked about "the time of the hour", Jesus didn't have an answer? Even when the very important though of men was made audible to him, he declared that the "time of the hour" is only known to "God." Todak what are you talking about here. The mind reader was not able to give the answer to a burning question that was asked aloud?

Advocate with the Father:
•   Muhammad – Not our Advocate with the Father
o   Sura 9:80 says, “Ask forgiveness for them or ask not for them. Even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times, Allah will not forgive them. This is because they disbelieve in Allah and His Messenger. And Allah guides not the transgressing people.”

•   Jesus – Our Advocate with the Father
o   1 John 2:1-2 says, “And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but also for the whole world.”

One may just be wasting time answering your questions, since you know from the Bible that Jesus said that not all "those who calls me lord" will enter heaven. I wonder if you don't know that only the Christians call Jessu "lord?" Therefore your advocacy is really like a non-advocate. The rule for any advocate applies to those who worship God as the specific advocate worshipped. Now do you worship God as Jesus did; prostrating your face after you have performed cleanliness with water (note that Jesus washed up his face, arms, etc, preparing for daily prayers).

I also read in the Bible that some of the people will tell Jesus that they performed miracles in his name, yet he will not do anything about their fate, when they are being led to "lake of fire." What do you think about this; really an advocate you said.

Muhammad (AS) has been "guaranteed" shefa "intercession". Read Surah Mariam and the hadith about the day of Judgement. You need to wake up, my dear brother.

@Tudor

Where's babs with his answer if i may ask?

I am here but waiting to read Todak's response to my question. I prepared his answers but held on. The reason for that is, if he claim Jesus is still God of the OT, then his analysis is very wrong and wouldnt be needing any response but if he claims that Jesus is not God of the OT, then I would come in with detailed response with verses to expose his post.

Help me beg him to answer.

Start a thread and todak will answer.
Meanwhile,give us your ''prepared answer'' -we're waiting o wise one.

My friend Tudor,Todaks needs no answer as all he wrote couldnt have been true because if jesus is God,you wouldnt need to read all the chapters in OT before knowing that all he posted couldnt have been for God Jesus

May allah save us.

Amen sir Tudor

@babs
@Tudor,u have turned yourself to a clown. I saw the thread but want you to help me ask your brethren Todak a question and when he does that, I would come in with more Quranic and Biblical verses coupled with explanations. I read in the biblical verses,statement that are not Jesus'.You know christians say Jesus is God,help me ask Todak if God Jesus is also God of the Old Testament? Thanks and looking forward to reading from your brother Todak and I would come in to attend to his post.


Look at you, you look short of words ever since the creation saga, that force that drive words out of your mouth has slowed down, well, if you have any problem, open a new thread, and i will attend to it, ok, but here help me out, lets hear your opinion after all i qouted were basically from the books.

@Littleb
Just lower your emotion, the argument is very easy for muslims to debate coz they belief both in Jesus and Muhammad. Analogically, in the court of law, between plaintiff and defendant, there are always witnesses. Here now, there are Bible and Quran. I wish my good brother @todak should not go out of the scope in order to expose liars. More copy is expected of him from your usual sources.

Who are the witnesses? if you believe in jesus as claimed you will believe in all he said, and like i have given? did i post any false there? you can reprove rather that beating about the bush, are they lies? slave

our presentation is just a repetition of what has been discussed over and over before you came on NL.

Hmmm i see, well i challenge you to recall all you wrote there to convince, confuse and hold the prophet in esteem

The fact you want this conversation mainly from Bible and Quran will even make it a failure coz it will vigorously expose how corrupted the bible is

we shall see, well i shall use your words against you i promise,

with all insults to God's prophets even Jesus that you projected here as your god.

Is your mouth rashing you about that Jesus is God? do you have any problem with that, open a new thread, i will come to the resque. tell me Which of them is not born of man?

Moreover, from your arguement point of view, it clearly evidenced that you are not a good researcher of the truth, rather a plagiarizer of others job non objectively

hmmmm, go on. good researcher

. I mean, you colud have scrutinize your write up to free of falacies which have been debunked by several muslim scholars with many evidence from Quran and Hadiths. I believe you will still go back to the source to re-equiped your writes up rather than just copy and paste information.

Then help me with those falacies that have been debunked, just like the creation saga right, where great orator where short of words and went into shock, which was even eminent in their post. sorry o, help me with them

First, jesus in Islam is a well respected prophet and messanger of Allah sent to Isrealite. His miraculous birth is admittedly similar to that of prophet Adam created from just ordinary dust(Qr3:59).

Really, if you really believe in Jesus, you would believe all he said, he said "I and my father are one" do you believe that? Gbruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu no, in islam he is just a figurehead, a mere mortal is regarded,

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah (God) is that of Adam; He created him from dust then said to him: 'Be', and he was."

Before Adam was Jesus was, take this John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word (Jesus), and the word (Jesus) was with God, and the word was God (Jesus)"

Moreover, Jesus performs miracles right from childhood according to the Quran coz he spoken while he was still a craddle. So, since the Quran was brought to us through prophet Muhammad and Jesus and his mother was highly placed, treated with so much respect than what you have in the bible.

Which miracle did muhammad did, and that is what prompt the question, who is superior from what you have said or who is a better prophet. here. goon

If we agree to rule out the possibility of Muhammad not a prophet, confirm by your first statement; "claimed to be" then the next logical conclussion will clearly shows that Muhammad and Jesus will actually be true friend if both of them are to be alive today.

thats funny to say, tell me what similarity is between them, help me with the contrast, is there no difference? cos i doubt the possibility of friendship?

Then, the arguement will remains either with you or the corrupted words of the bible.

You say

Logically, a typical muslim will be a friend to Jesus and Muhammad coz he believe in both of them.

that is the story you all tell, you all do not know who Jesus is cos if you know, you will not regard, that crook above him, yes,

I personaly believes in Jesus and Muhammad and sometimes I dressed like them, even my wife and my sisters always dress like Jesus' mother.

And how did you know the way they dress? from the quran

Have you ever read a chapter of the Quran known as Maryam, dedicated to mother of Jesus.

That was also missed with the sister of Moses, which should we accept, the plagarized bible you people carry about, talking about mary and later inducing maryam the sister of Moses. nawaoooooooo

If Muhammad is Jesus enemy or he brought a different message, dont you think he would have named it after his mother

You can ask him in hell, but tell me why did he not but i guess, it was named by his pagan God as Quran

. If you claimed to believe in Jesus as your god which he never claimed to be,

Which the quran refuse to tell about his diety, cos if the quran says so, then islam is doomed and you know the devil is cunny, when he see that the people sees the light, he come as angel of light to divert and thats what islam is, a divertion.

I believe reverse will be the case on the day of judgement because he will never look at your side.

Will he look at you hahahahahaha, what do you know about the judgement day, when you will face his panel of judges, you will weep and not even your allah, or muhammad will come your resque

Now, examine the ploy of your arguement proves extremely feeble to muslims, because, it claimed one to be superior to another. It is unacceptible for muslims to either chose between Muhammad or Jesus because both are inspired by God and religiously you shouldn't distinguish between them.

Then why is it only muhammad that is mentioned in all the things you all do, prayer, war, bathing and the rest, and you believe in all the prophets, it is only sweet mouthed to say but not in action or what you people do.

Allah says:

We have sent you (Muhammad) inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. Of some apostles We have already told you the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- Qr 4:163-164


And tell me, which of all these prophets are Ishmaellites except or muhammad, photocopying of the bible, haba, are you people not ashamed, where did muhammad get his insipration from, certainly not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

Analysis of your claim is baseless

What you are saying indirectly that The quran is baseless, point one, that it is false, and if the sultan hears this, your tongue or oh oh oh it is your hand that commited the sin, will be sivered from you according to the shameless(Sharia) law, but come to think of it it is what your heart dictate to you that you write, so it is you life that will give way, you rightly know that i quoted from the quran

which means you will still copy more information from your source to have a point because there are still more for you to copy or otherwise engage with us(muslims) in rational conversation to share what you and I believe.

What gives you that impression?

Admittedly Muhammad is a prophet,

For more clarification, a prophet of doom, from the pit of hell are you ok by that, do not proclaim a fatwa on me, cos i have the right to say what i want, this is not an islamic country, we practse democracy here!!!

will the arguement not save to be rationally base on what you claimed jesus is, either you accept him as a god or son of God or a prophet considering he possessed the qualities you mentioned:


Tell me why should it be rational, after all all i qouted was from the quran and the corrupt bible, abi, was the quran i used a fake one. or it is not so in your own quran, is was there a falsehood, well, it pointa to your quran

Quote
Jesus – The Son of God
Jesus – Knows the thoughts of men
Jesus – Our Advocate with the Father
Jesus – Performed miracles
Jesus – Taught forgiveness
Jesus – Was sinless
Jesus – Healed the blind
Jesus – One with the Father
Jesus – Taught monogamy
Jesus – Came to save lives
Jesus – Cast out demons
Jesus – Satan had NO influence over Jesus
Jesus – Read the Word of God
Jesus – Taught Marriage was binding and against divorce
Jesus – Called people to come to Him
Jesus – People are free to accept Jesus’ message or not
Jesus – Is the life and His follower will live

Well you did not complete the whole summarry, let me help you,
while muhammad is the slave of allah
Muhammad know nothing and he is an illeterate, and can never knoe the mind of men
He can not perform a miracle, cos i have not been given a precise miralce of prominent with quranic verses
He taught how to kill
Was a Sinner and often ask allah to foegive after breaking the law he lays down
He never healed any one, but even died of fever
He is no god
Taugh polygamy and polyandry
Destroyed many lives
Could not even cast the demon of allah that torment him when he was yet to yield the call of allah and when allahwant to speak to him especially in the cave
THe devil was the chief controller, even to the so called satanic verses
was told about the bible and he did an indirect duplicate of it in the name of quran
Even had unkknow numbers of wives that are yet to be ascertain, and 100% stood for divorce
He used jihad to increase adherent
Death await anyone that reject islam, and worse still leave islam, insult upon injury, may God save us
HIs followers will be jugded by the good work they do, even if 51% above, aljanat is sure, and they would enjoy the maidens at paradise.

@ fellis
Babs no mind todak. Is their claim not; Jesus=God=God of the old testament?

U are always passive, ole tele alfa. and if that is my claim, do you have any problem with that?

Almost all your points about Muhammad(S.A.w.) are false, the points that are not false were twisted and made to look like something entirely else. And the fact that your Bible has been so severely adulterated does little to support the 'facts' you drew from it.


I like your challenge, you are the only one in this post that want to refute me, you are welcome, mr. fellis, now, let me ask you these questions

1 Which of the quranic verses is false?
2. Are you saying that those verses were mistakes or not well qouted?
3. Explain your self better, cos you can not just drop a word and leave back it up. ok.

I appeciate your courage, heh, lets see how far you can go, even the fierciest of you bowed after our last converstaion. i mean babs,

@olabowale
And in Surah Taubah, Allah expresses Muhammad to be "mercy and forgiveness" to mankind. Read it. This is statement of Al Rahman. Further, you will find in many verses of the Quran where Allah confirms Muhammad (AS) as the one sent to "all mankind" and Allah says He is enough as a Witness. And in Surah Saffat, verse 6 expresses that Jesus was sent to "confirm or reaffirm" authentic taurah, bringing back the people to it. No wonder he said that he did not come to destroy or abolish the Prophets and their Laws and rules (Taurah and sabur). Further you will see in that verse from the Quran where Jesus other duty was to announce the coming of the Prophet known as Ahmad; means of comfort or reassurance. I guess that means "Comforter."


What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are a fool for saying that. you gues or what did you say, i repeat you are a fool, how can you guess, is this a guessing matter?, and you are a good muslim you say, go and search for the meaning of ahmad, and was that said in the quran cos you are only trying to make it parallel to the bible, you guesser, the bible say, he would send the comforter not ahmad, olodo, that is who the twist the bible and later they it is corrupt, foolish slaves of allah, all i have qouted is from the quran, you can't despute that, do not come here and give uus your guessed and incorrect interpretation. wait tell me why do yyou quote and try to make things that are not in the bible to be, cos the quran got no convincing power, sheooooooo, leave the corrupt bible for all that concerns Jesus, you can quote all for the Quran, the quran never spoke bad about Jesus, but do not never qoute any thing realting muhammad to the bible, where, who is he? a doom prophet, and is muhammad a comforter, or do you not know the meaning of comforter? plz quot all that concerns muhammad from the quran, not from the bible cos there is absolute no corelation, the name, his decription and all that looks like him, never found in the bible except for false prophets Jesus warned us of.

And Jesus saying that it is "as you said" did not address the question as clearly as anyone may hope, when he was asked. It demanded a "YES" or "NO" answer, since he was put under oath. Please we are not dealing in ambiguity here, considering the over whelming evidences from the Taurah that God; Yahweh/Jehovah/Eloi (Allah) from the Old Israeli Prophets, starting from Israel himself; Jacob to Zachariah and son John that there is always no son or children for the "completely Independent and Unique Creator" .

And from Jesus, we have abundant verses from the Injil that go against your mishmmash conclusion of "son of God!"

Hope you will qoute from the unique and intact injil and not the gosple we carry in the bible, help me with the injil that go against it.

Jesus called himself man, son of man (Mary in this case since she is the only carry for "man" here, prophet and Messiah to his people only, since he limited his mission to his own people.

And do you know why, cos he was in flesh, and as flesh he is a man, a mere man, but not the mere man you see you people claim he is, he is the Son of the Most high, God himself. hit your head on the wall, cos i said he is God, and he is God, even when he had told no one, he asked his disciples, what do you say i am, and Peter answered ans said, "You are the son of God", so once again hit your self on the wall. cos you people feel angry at such words,

I wonder if a God will run for his life to Egypt as a youth under the authority of his mother and "fake step father; since you still refer to Mary as virgin." (A virgin is a person who never voluntarity have sexual intercourse with a man.

And from your defination of a virgin, was Jesus the product of his "fake step father" and mary, olodo, like a roman saying"when you are in rome, you behave as a roman", that is what happened, Jesus came to the world and came as a man, and does that change his personality. A black who is an american citizen, i american by law, by by nature, is and will always be black African. Obama is an American, good, but where is his true land Africa, Jesus was with his father, he came to save the world, and he had to take the form of man for his mission to be accomplished, tell me, why was he the only prophet to suffer so much humilation, and such kind of death, though you people refuse to acknowledge that Jesus was killed and he ressurected.

The presence of hymen is irrelevant, since it could be broken through exercises/ or reattached; ask Dr. Nwando), or as an adult? Couldn't he have been able to just make it impossible for those after his life to get it, since he "is" God? Or does God have just one life, like us humans, His creation? If God dies who takes care of the earth and heavens and all things?

You talk like a fool, if you follow what is above, you will see the essence why he came to the earth, without blood there is no remmission of sin, and God does not accept impure blood or blood that is not holy, and he is tired of the blood of lamb and sheep brought to him every year for the remmission of sin, he there want it to be done once and for all, and that is why Jesus came, and when he ressurected, he alone did, why cos his mission is accomplished

By the way I intentionally leave the raising of death that he performed, just one time as a way for you to come back, whereby I shall ask you if he was truly capable more than the one time as a sign,

If the need arise, surely he is, but what he came to do is for once and for all, do you see any one going to the temple to sacrifice, no cos it is done once and for all

why didn't the community swamp him with their deads

You can go to Israel and ask them, since Jesus is capable, why did they not ask him to raise all their dead? i'm really weakened by your foolish talks,

and why anyone remained in the cementary during his time?

Jesus is not a magician, he is not a show man, he was no mere man, and all he did was was according to the instruction of his Father, whom he is one with. Tell me, how many sick people did muhammad gave first aid talk more of raising the dead? far from both

And why did the only person he raised not remain, still on earth and why didn't he make people to die, enmasse?

Who told you it was only one person he raised? well, nevertheless, the only person you know he raised and all others was to glorify God, and not for show like i said earlier, it is only a magician that performs for credit, Jesus was not looking for credit. and the person could not remain cos he was mortal, a mere man, but Jesus was not.


I wonder why when asked about "the time of the hour", Jesus didn't have an answer? Even when the very important though of men was made audible to him, he declared that the "time of the hour" is only known to "God." Todak what are you talking about here. The mind reader was not able to give the answer to a burning question that was asked aloud?


And did he not give a clue to the time of the hour, and even if he tell, no one will work as they ought to cos they will be waiting for the time of the hour, and morever are you blind, did i say he knows the mind of God?, olodo egbe like you



One may just be wasting time answering your questions, since you know from the Bible that Jesus said that not all "those who calls me lord" will enter heaven. I wonder if you don't know that only the Christians call Jesus "lord?"

You are still a fool for that, you rightly said "not all those that colls me Lord" does that implies all, "not all" is not all, you islamic sense of reason has blocked the medula oblongata from reading the correct and giving it a simple meaningful english interpretation. Here it is saying that not all that serve him will get to heaven, why, cos not all is fully obedient to him {note the word FULLY} do not let your eyes decieve you. so those who are christians that still sins and didobey him can not get to heaven, cos for you to get to heaven, you must be holy, concreated, sanctified, blameless, without spot or wrinkles and have the friuts and gifts of the Holy spirit.

Therefore your advocacy is really like a non-advocate. The rule for any advocate applies to those who worship God as the specific advocate worshipped.

Where did you get that law, your own formualted or from the principles of law, i rightly disagree with you. do you know the meaning of an advocate? it also means a mediator, in the Law court, they are called Solicitors, Someone whom on your behalf pleads to someone greater for mercy and leniency over you. and in that case, you are the offender, and from my earlier writing, you will see that Jesus is the mediator, advocator, and solicitor, between, we and God, cos If there is not blood there is no remission of sin.

Now do you worship God as Jesus did; prostrating your face after you have performed cleanliness with water (note that Jesus washed up his face, arms, etc, preparing for daily prayers).


Where did you find that, probably from the quran right? but not in the bible, and concerning the washing of hands and leg was the old time tradition of the Israelites, the bible recorded that when abraham saw the three angel, he bowed down calling them "my Lord", and later gave them water to wash their feet. and also a tradtion of all arabs, cos their land is a dusty type, so that is tradition, not a religious obligation of worshiping allah, and moreover, all diety are reverenced by bowing doen, so that is baseless and unacceptable,

I also read in the Bible that some of the people will tell Jesus that they performed miracles in his name, yet he will not do anything about their fate, when they are being led to "lake of fire." What do you think about this; really an advocate you said.

Cos they were not obedient, they may do all that you say but not saved themselves that was why paul said"Take heed, lest you fall", he said, i preach the gospel, i must not forget myself too, i must obey and follow what i preach. and also there are many people in christiandom that does not know what it takes to be a christian, they are the type of people Jesus was refering to.

Muhammad (AS) has been "guaranteed" shefa "intercession". Read Surah Mariam and the hadith about the day of Judgement. You need to wake up, my dear brother.

hmmmmm, and who will grant him that? listen and listen good, it is worse for him than you why cos woe unto him that causeh his brother to fall from the grace of God, he has led millions of the world today away from the Gospel of Christ, he is presently gnashing his teeth in hell. it is not too late for you


@babs
I am here but waiting to read Todak's response to my question. I prepared his answers but held on. The reason for that is, if he claim Jesus is still God of the OT, then his analysis is very wrong and wouldnt be needing any response but if he claims that Jesus is not God of the OT, then I would come in with detailed response with verses to expose his post.

Expose my post first and then lets talk, i need you to come back to your vibracy, ok. But if this will keep u abay, i do not mind, at any post i will always say it. JESUS IS GOD and nothing can change that, muhammad has tried to change it but has failed.

Help me beg him to answer. Grin Grin
And i have , we are all waiting for you

My friend Tudor,Todaks needs no answer as all he wrote couldnt have been true because if jesus is God,you wouldnt need to read all the chapters in OT before knowing that all he posted couldnt have been for God Jesus

You can not see with the islamic googles on your eyes, Jesus was not revealed in the Old testament, and it was after he was revealed, we have the new testament and that was when, the curtain seperating the holy of holiest was torn apart immediately. which menas we now have access to the throne of mercy pleading with the blood of Jesus to atone for our sins.

The two questions you asked me,
1. None
2. Since none, so no answer here.
I get the feeling you see the statement I made about The Bible being corrupted as an attack. It isn't one, neither is the fact that it was, something I rejoice over. It saddens me, really does.
(And before you start gearing yourself for a fight, this post was not made with intention to abuse or abase but to reply what you asked).
Why I asked you if Jesus is not the same god of the old testament in your opinion is because of all the ill you spoke of The Prophet Mohammad (SAW) because he fought jihad against oppressors. Is fighting not something that was commanded by God in your old testament?
And, why, why, why for the love of peace did you decide to use those curse words? (fool, goon, ole tele alfa, am not an alfa, and yes, most of the time, I seem to be passive because I am still learning, I don't have as much knowledge as babs, olabowale etc, so I sometimes leave questions to be answered better by them.). Can you not hold a conversation with muslims without displaying the hatred you habour for them? What does your Bible teach regarding that?
Again, why did you interprete matthew 7:21 to mean only those that are blameless, without spot or wrinkles? Do you honestly think humans can be perfect enough to be completely sinless? What about sins committed unintentionally, or forgetfully? How did you draw that conclusion? Is it a conjecture?
Thank you for your peaceful reply.

let everyone worship in the way he or she pleases. after all, there's only on god. pls drop this arguments. its for children not mature adults like you.

@Tudor: Flowers are loved by Muslims. Moroccans squeeze the juice of "Rose petals" and pour it over people when in festive and happy moods. Perfumes are also made from petals of flowers. And we all know that Muslims use perfumes/fragrances liberally on the body to pray. I use it on my forehead and face, my palms, knees and the sole of my feet, among others.

@Todak: Can a goat have an offspring (goat) that eats flesh? Can a Goat produces Pig, considering what each eats, smells like and lives, etc? Can perfection produces as an offspring imperfection? Can the All Knower have a child/offspring who does not have complete knowledge? Can the One who is always Alive have as a child the one that at least experienced death, based on your Bible naratives?

Can the One who created Adam and then even as fully grown, male and then female (Eve) produce a child who came to this earth with all the helplessness of being a newly born, the blood that comes after birth and the placenta, etc,  like every human child born through fusion of male and female productive materials?

Enough of trying to make a human God, man! The creation of Adam is from the eyes of man is even more impossible than just a production of human from just a female. Afterall, Ants still produce their non-productive members from unfertilized eggs. And male seahorse carries the young through futal development stages. Today we have cloning, and surrogacy where actually child is produced without father and or mother. Sex may not necessarily occur.

Finally, you are talking about marriage from the eyes of your human god. Even though he did not get married, do you even think he can be an authority on the subject more than the human prophet who actually married, considering that what the human prophet recommended, divorce in extreme cases, safe lives and prevent extreme emotional backlashes, even today?

You need to be real man.

@ Fellis
The two questions you asked me,
1. None
2. Since none, so no answer here.


Good, So tell me, which of them is false, and how many was twisted?


I get the feeling you see the statement I made about The Bible being corrupted as an attack.

You are not the only one that has labelled the bible corrupt, but it is generally believe in islam that the first three books God sent were corrupt, which i count as blasphemy, cos God has not done anything and it get spoilt, he sent his law, and it was corrupt, i see it as blasphemy, you are telling God he is not capable of keeping his words. yes that i sthe meaning

It isn't one, neither is the fact that it was, something I rejoice over. It saddens me, really does.

i seeeeeeeeeeee, well thats what you were made to know, but it is not, you ahve freedom to your speech

(And before you start gearing yourself for a fight, this post was not made with intention to abuse or abase but to reply what you asked).

Thanks i understand, but i notice in this section of NL that you must stand up vehemently to the faslehood proclaimed and claimed.

Why I asked you if Jesus is not the same god of the old testament in your opinion is because of all the ill you spoke of The Prophet Mohammad (SAW) because he fought jihad against oppressors. Is fighting not something that was commanded by God in your old testament?

And was Muhammad born during the law, No, he was after some centuries when Jesus was long gone, the God that sent jesus that "Love your enemy" can not change his words "strike their necks", do you see the contrast, we do not serve the same God, Mosses operated under the law, so Joshua, David, Solomon, and the rest of them and right after Jesus came, the law passed out, then from nowhere a prophet will arise and claim that that same God said otherwise, i doubt that and thats why i stand against the prophethood of muhammad and yet heis still a prophet but not of the GOd Of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which is not Allah.

And, why, why, why for the love of peace did you decide to use those curse words? (fool, goon, ole tele alfa, am not an alfa, and yes, most of the time, I seem to be passive because I am still learning, I don't have as much knowledge as babs, olabowale etc, so I sometimes leave questions to be answered better by them.). Can you not hold a conversation with muslims without displaying the hatred you habour for them? What does your Bible teach regarding that?

well, i'm sorry about that, i am only enraged at the way you just come in, say some few disgusing things and leave which i see as cowardice. and also i see that when one refutes the likes of babs, they call you names like olodo, fool and the likes, so now i know you and what your level is concerning this matter, so from now on, i will be lenient with you,ok.

Again, why did you interprete matthew 7:21 to mean only those that are blameless, without spot or wrinkles? Do you honestly think humans can be perfect enough to be completely sinless?

That is the point, Jesus was sinless as a man, and that is a perfect example, for we christians to follow, yes, nobody is perfect, but God demnands your perfectness, holiness"Be ye holy as i'm am holy", not that you could not sin, but immediately you give your life to Jesus, you should by all mean be sinless, but that is graduall, it does not happens in a day, but you must attain such for you to get to heaven, and not good works alone. and a little sin could make you loose heaven, our God is a God of perfection. and that is why, if one claims to serve God and he is not, he will be among those that these words "get away, you unfaithful servants" will be spoken to.

What about sins committed unintentionally, or forgetfully? How did you draw that conclusion? Is it a conjecture?

Yes there are sins we commit unintentionally, and that is why we ask for forgiveness of all our sins, so that we would not fall out of the presence of God.

Thank you for your peaceful reply.

You are greatly welcomed, if you want to know more about christianity, send your questions to doyoureallyknowjesus@yahoo.com. and you can contact me through it, thanks for you humble post, may God reward you greatly, i am really impressed.

@todak,
I charged my battery just some time ago, thats why am replying late. And unfortunately, my browser does not allow inserting quotes, so I'd just number my replies according to the diff. points you made.
1. You asked me which was false or twisted.
Basically everything you wrote, you wrote to potray him in a bad light. Come on todak, Islam would not be such a widespread religion, or the fastest growing religion, if the man who preached it was known to have so many vices. I would have taken your points one by one, and brought the truth about them to the best of my ability, in this post, but I have exams I've got to study for, so I'd just do it post by post, gradually, as the days go by, Insha Allah, because, not only, would I be disproving, I would also have to bring proof of why I think I am right, and your points are quite numerous. I can't be done with them in just a short time. And also, todak, it would have been wiser to find out the truth about those things from knowledgeable muslims before coming to put them up here. I don't know what site or book you copied what you wrote from, but it was obviously an anti-Islamic one, whose aim it is to disparage Islam, even if it had to do so with falsifications. So there, I'd do what I can, gradually, Insha Allah, because of my exams.
2. You said you see my mentioning that the Bible has been corrupted as blasphemy. Todak, I'm not rubbing it in your face or anything, but it's true noowwww. It has actually been corrupted. All the while you have been reading the Bible have you not ever come across contradicting verses? Do you honestly think the Bible was revealed with those contradictions? Do you think God would reveal something with all those discrepancies? Don't you agree that God is too perfect for that? And my saying it has been corrupted, does not necessarily mean I'm implying that God cannot protect His books. He can. He has been protecting the Holy Qur'an all these years. He permitted those who corrupted the Bible to do so, the reasons why, are best known to Him. He permitted it does not mean he could not have stopped it. Hmm?
3. That's not what I was made to know, that's the fact.
4. Islam is not falsehood, it is The One True Way.
5. I thought Jesus Christ was recorded in the bible to have said he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it? Why did you say the old laws passed out right after Jesus came? And even if love for one's enemies was commanded, does that mean defense against their harm was completely prohibited? Or don't you know that the verse was referring to the enemies of Islam (not just any innocent by-stander), who wanted to cause undeserved harm to the Muslims?
6. Apology accepted. I have never insulted you so do not insult me.
7. Please.
God does not demand perfectness from human beings. Only He is perfect. Humans are prone to mistakes, or erring. It's a quality that is inseperable from their being. There's no amount of gradual work that would make you a perfectly sinless human being. You could only succeed in being able to avoid sinning INTENTIONALLY. Not altogether. Because as a human being, you are imperfect. . .and you forget.
8. Ok.
9. Good. Hope the insult free relationship is here to stay. And about the site, Am okay with Islam. Infact I make prayers to live my entire life as a muslim and die as one also.
Try to read and understand my points without bias. Thanks. It's not a war, it's just a religious discussion.

@todak,
I charged my battery just some time ago, thats why am replying late. And unfortunately, my browser does not allow inserting quotes, so I'd just number my replies according to the diff. points you made.
1. You asked me which was false or twisted.
Basically everything you wrote, you wrote to potray him in a bad light. Come on todak, Islam would not be such a widespread religion, or the fastest growing religion, if the man who preached it was known to have so many vices. I would have taken your points one by one, and brought the truth about them to the best of my ability, in this post, but I have exams I've got to study for, so I'd just do it post by post, gradually, as the days go by, Insha Allah, because, not only, would I be disproving, I would also have to bring proof of why I think I am right, and your points are quite numerous. I can't be done with them in just a short time. And also, todak, it would have been wiser to find out the truth about those things from knowledgeable muslims before coming to put them up here. I don't know what site or book you copied what you wrote from, but it was obviously an anti-Islamic one, whose aim it is to disparage Islam, even if it had to do so with falsifications. So there, I'd do what I can, gradually, Insha Allah, because of my exams.
2. You said you see my mentioning that the Bible has been corrupted as blasphemy. Todak, I'm not rubbing it in your face or anything, but it's true noowwww. It has actually been corrupted. All the while you have been reading the Bible have you not ever come across contradicting verses? Do you honestly think the Bible was revealed with those contradictions? Do you think God would reveal something with all those discrepancies? Don't you agree that God is too perfect for that? And my saying it has been corrupted, does not necessarily mean I'm implying that God cannot protect His books. He can. He has been protecting the Holy Qur'an all these years. He permitted those who corrupted the Bible to do so, the reasons why, are best known to Him. He permitted it does not mean he could not have stopped it. Hmm?
3. That's not what I was made to know, that's the fact.
4. Islam is not falsehood, it is The One True Way.
5. I thought Jesus Christ was recorded in the bible to have said he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it? Why did you say the old laws passed out right after Jesus came? And even if love for one's enemies was commanded, does that mean defense against their harm was completely prohibited? Or don't you know that the verse was referring to the enemies of Islam (not just any innocent by-stander), who wanted to cause undeserved harm to the Muslims?
6. Apology accepted. I have never insulted you so do not insult me.
7. Please.
God does not demand perfectness from human beings. Only He is perfect. Humans are prone to mistakes, or erring. It's a quality that is inseperable from their being. There's no amount of gradual work that would make you a perfectly sinless human being. You could only succeed in being able to avoid sinning INTENTIONALLY. Not altogether. Because as a human being, you are imperfect. . .and you forget.
8. Ok.
9. Good. Hope the insult free relationship is here to stay. And about the site, Am okay with Islam. Infact I make prayers to live my entire life as a muslim and die as one also.
Try to read and understand my points without bias. Thanks. It's not a war, it's just a religious discussion.

fellis:

Basically everything you wrote, you wrote to potray him in a bad light. Come on todak, Islam would not be such a widespread religion, or the fastest growing religion, if the man who preached it was known to have so many vices.

Excuse me, but this is a facetious argument . . . fraught with dishonesty.

Islam is a "widespread religion" but exactly HOW was it "spread"? By the sword, blood and conquest. Take a look at the history of north africa, look at the history of Lebanon, Pakistan, even parts of West Africa. Did islam "spread" there by choice?

Is islam the "fastest growing" religion because it is actually growing or because of the high birthrate in muslim nations?

fellis:

2. You said you see my mentioning that the Bible has been corrupted as blasphemy. Todak, I'm not rubbing it in your face or anything, but it's true noowwww. It has actually been corrupted.

now dear hypocrite . . . for you to be ABSOLUTELY sure that the bible is "corrupted", it must mean that you have had access to the pure copy right? WHERE IS IT?

Allah made this FALSE CLAIM - 5:44. Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Mûsa
(Moses)],
therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted
themselves to Allâh's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the
priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those
Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh's Book,
and they were witnesses thereto.

Now while the jews ACKNOWLEDGE their torah to have come directly from Jehovah (Not the lying allah), we have to ask . . . WHERE IS ALLAH'S TORAH THAT HE CLAIMED TO HAVE SENT TO MOSES? Is it the same one you claim is corrupt now?

Allah again LIED - “There is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah” (Sura 6:34); “None can change His words” (6:115); “No change can there be in the words of Allah” (10:64).

If "none" can change allah's words . . . WHERE THEN IS THE TORAH AND INJIL HE CLAIMED TO HAVE SENT? If the bible is "corrupt" then we can safely conclude that it is NOT the one allah sent since none can alter his words or decrees no?

Pls provide us with a pure copy of this bible that we may see the "corruption" for ourselves . . . otherwise pls keep your oft recycled falsehood to yourself.

fellis:

All the while you have been reading the Bible have you not ever come across contradicting verses?

1. Where are these "contradicting" verses?

2. The quran has tons of contradicting verses . . . do you believe it is also corrupt?

fellis:

Do you think God would reveal something with all those discrepancies? Don't you agree that God is too perfect for that?

Allah told us the mountains are tent pegs to hold the earth, told us the sun sets in a muddy spring . . . WAS THE QURAN REALLY REVEALED BY A PERFECT GOD THEN?

That is way worse than a "discrepancy".

fellis:

And my saying it has been corrupted, does not necessarily mean I'm implying that God cannot protect His books. He can. He has been protecting the Holy Qur'an all these years. He permitted those who corrupted the Bible to do so, the reasons why, are best known to Him. He permitted it does not mean he could not have stopped it. Hmm?

i.e. the bible also belonged to allah but he allowed others to "corrupt" it? But was he not the same one who LIED that his decrees could not be altered? Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted and send another quran which is essentially a poor plagiarism of the bible?

Why are thousands of important details NEVER found in the quran but have to be ferreted for in the bible? why are the alleged messages of Jesus, David, solomon, Ezekiel NEVER found in the quran?

Why was the bible sent to JEWS first? What happened to the children of Ishmael and why is there a 4000 yr blackout of them by allah who LIED again that it was the son that Abraham sacrificed? Why do  muslims have to rely on the same corrupt bible for stories about Jesus, the jews, THEIR PROPHETS AND THE CHILDREN OF ISHMAEL?

fellis:

4. Islam is not falsehood, it is The One True Way.

Yeah right. And i'm the king of Spain.

fellis:

5. I thought Jesus Christ was recorded in the bible to have said he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it? Why did you say the old laws passed out right after Jesus came?

But here you are again hypocrite . . . QUOTING FROM THE SAME BIBLE YOU EARLIER CLAIMED WAS CORRUPT TO JUSTIFY ISLAM'S PERFIDY? How is this possible? 

Okay.
I am going to do what I can today, regarding your points.
In no particular order:
* You said Mohammed (SAW) was the last prophet.
Very true. He was in fact the last prophet of The One True God. He never claimed to be God or the son of God, and he spread His Message and obeyed His decrees on earth. I see nothing wrong in his being a humble servant of God. A God who has no children by the way.
* Mohammed, while he was on earth, did act as an advocate for the believers. In Q19-47, he was told to ask for forgiveness of the sins of the believing men and believing women. The verse you quoted, talked about ONLY the disbelievers, and why intercession on their behalf was not accepted is because disbelievers are going to end up in hell on Judgement Day, regardless of how well behaved they were. Belief, (being a muslim) is the first requirement for salvation on Judgement Day, and those without it, have no need for forgiveness because their disbelief would make them end up in hell anyway.
And. Muslims do not need an intercessor while on earth because in the Qur'an, we are told to seek forgiveness for our sins. Q4:110: "And whoever does any evil, or wrongs himself, then seeks God's forgiveness; he will find God Forgiving, Merciful. "So really, a go-between is not necessary, since seeking forgiveness and sincere repentance is all that is needed. God does not make going through advocates a requirement. He is Merciful enough to forgive after direct asking.
* You said Muhammed is a servant of Allah. So? Are we not all God's servants? Are we not controlled by Him? Are we not UNDER OBLIGATION to do whatever He commands us? Is the consequence of disobedience not punishment? You'd agree with me that we are right? So what does that make us?
And I wonder how Jesus can be one with the father and be the father's son, and also be an advocate to the father.
All at once.
No offence.
* Muhammed DID perform miracles. I'll be back Insha Allah.

Does Qur'an categorically stated that Allah revealed bible or revealed Torah and Injeel? Does Torah + injeel = Bible ? Definitely NO. However, bible itself is a combination of many books in which some parts of Torah and Injeel sctaterred therein.
Apart Quranic revelation, analysis of bible itself by many historians, athiest and scientist revealed that it was corrupted evidenced by many contradictions, distorted stories of God's prophets and full of many third party informations with no traces of thier authors. Needless to say are the many incestuous stories amongs the holiest. And in many analysis, bible is known to be from three different sources. THE GOD, GOD's PROPHETS and HISTORIANS.

Even the historical life of Jesus has reported wrongly, just as an evidence that it wasn't really inspired. In the Qur’an, we are told that mankind changed the message of Jesus after his departure. The Qur’an further states that if a book of God has been tampered with by the hands of mankind then this tampering will be recognizable by the inevitable contradictions which will result from this tampering. God says in the Qur’an: “Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would have surely found therein much discrepancy.” Qr4:82. The Bible itself also testifies to the fact that a false witness will inevitably result in contradictions and discrepancy: “For many bare false witness against him(Jesus), but their witness agreed not together.” Mark 14:56.

In many religious arguement about Jesus being claimed as God, reading the life of Jesus in the gospels, one will never once hear him categorically state 'I am God'. And in some perfection, if we are to be truly stick to what only Jesus statements of the bible differ from all the contradictions of the reporters,  the perception would be very similar to what Allah says in the Quran.

If someone accussed Islam spread through swords or Jihad, is there any religious where war was not fought? Definitely NO. Every faith has his own accorded war methodology and prescribed circumstances. If Jews could be right with all the people killed in bloodshed in the OT and the statement of Jesus to his desciples to  buy swords could be very well understood by those people who started crusades, Jihad methodolody according to shaabah could not be seen as barabaric. To people with understandings, Islam encourages you to dialogue or fight opperessors. The two is applicable in different circumstances, knowing it right is either you win or lose. Just don't trangress. That's just a theory of Jihad in Islam. Christains could either choose between their two contradictory thoery, be a complete gentle as in Matthew 5:38-39
“But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your cheek, turn the other to him also.”

or otherwise as in Luke 19:27:"for those enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and and slay them there before me."

@Davidylan: Your paternal bloodline is from Ijebuland. Your father is directly from Ijebu Ode. So was my father. Now tell me, which sword carrier came to Ijebu Ode and made it Muslim town. Let talk about Ibadan with all its warring capability and the seat of Yoruba politics. Who came and conquaered Ibadan for Islam? The Ibadans will tell you that no one has ever defeated them in war(s), before. I don't wanna speak about Lagos, because it will be too complex for you.

Pegs of tent, are meant to hold tent in place, or do they have any other "Primary" function, other than "hold/stabilize" the tent? Now if Mountains o earth are stated to act like pegs of tent, holding it in place, then tell me what is exactly holds earth in place, preventing it from shaking (holding in place), if it is not the Mountains? What is the primary function of Mountain on the earth, if you know that it is not for holding in place?

And as to the murky look of water body when the sun is setting on it, please go back to fundamental principle of light travels in water. This is probably high school physics. When the light rays hit the water surface, it is refracted and does not straight, coming out bending, if it is in a transparent container; trough, etc. Try it in your apartment for your own edifice.

Now, factor in the condition of brightness, in the case lack of it at Sunset. It is therefore no surprise that a large body of water does have soil/sand as its base. It moves and completely not still. If the dying/dull rays of sun that is setting hits the water surface, I wonder what Davidylan standing at the bank will see?

I am presently away from Manhattan, at a small village (I say boomdock). It happens that the ocean flows creates a way, which is just less that 50 yards away from me. When i look at the windoe during the time the sun is setting to know if my clock is correct for Saah, I always see the murky look on the surface of a water that has clear look during the afternoon of everyday. Please look at the ocean in Rochester. Sorry you dont have an ocean, but you do have Fall. Look at it and the lakes, though may be artificial will clear up your confusion.

You can experiment at the time of the setting of sun. Get a big bowl with water. Set it on the balcony or a place that the rays of sun can hit it when it is setting. Stand far enough as if you are at the bank of a bigger body of water. Will it be murky or continues to look clear just before the sun is completely set? I want an answer from you, man.

@fellis
I charged my battery just some time ago, thats why am replying late. And unfortunately, my browser does not allow inserting quotes, so I'd just number my replies according to the diff. points you made.
1. You asked me which was false or twisted.
Basically everything you wrote, you wrote to potray him in a bad light.

well, that is your own point of view, i may have portray him bad, but all the references where from where?

Come on todak, Islam would not be such a widespread religion, or the fastest growing religion, if the man who preached it was known to have so many vices.

And have i not provided the vices, are they not true, fellis be sincere, and just like David had asked, what mean of spread?

I would have taken your points one by one, and brought the truth about them to the best of my ability, in this post, but I have exams I've got to study for, so I'd just do it post by post, gradually, as the days go by, Insha Allah, because, not only, would I be disproving, I would also have to bring proof of why I think I am right, and your points are quite numerous. I can't be done with them in just a short time.

You are welcome anytime

And also, todak, it would have been wiser to find out the truth about those things from knowledgeable muslims before coming to put them up here.

You said knowledgeable muslims, you are funny, you know the way you muslims behave when muhammad is discussed, you want my head to be jihaded?, i don't discuss any thing islamic outside the internet, cos here i am free to say, the worst bet is to have war of words and it dies down. you knew how many people were killed in the north, when a cartoon portraying muhammad was advertised in Denmark, not that i'm afraid, but like it is said, prevention is better than cure, so that is not a good advice, my friend.

I don't know what site or book you copied what you wrote from, but it was obviously an anti-Islamic one, whose aim it is to disparage Islam, even if it had to do so with falsifications. So there, I'd do what I can, gradually, Insha Allah, because of my exams.

Hmmmmmmm, i will quite agree with you but then, i only want you muslims to know that you highly esteemed prophet is not as good as proclaimed, and the quran confirms that.

2. You said you see my mentioning that the Bible has been corrupted as blasphemy. Todak, I'm not rubbing it in your face or anything, but it's true noowwww. It has actually been corrupted.

and do you actually have the incorruptible bible, i will love to have one too

All the while you have been reading the Bible have you not ever come across contradicting verses?

well, honestly i have not,

Do you honestly think the Bible was revealed with those contradictions?

which contradictions, the bible was written by different men and there are bound to be textual, methodogical,seasonal and indiviual difference, way of expression, but an inspiration of God, and since we alll agree it was written by men, your so called contradictition is nullified. But the quran was directly dictated to muhammad yet full of contradictions, have you also not notice that?

Do you think God would reveal something with all those discrepancies? Don't you agree that God is too perfect for that?

well, i do not know or see any discrepancies, and if you believe God is too perfect to make a mistake, do you believe he could keep his three previous books?

And my saying it has been corrupted, does not necessarily mean I'm implying that God cannot protect His books. He can. He has been protecting the Holy Qur'an all these years. He permitted those who corrupted the Bible to do so, the reasons why, are best known to Him. He permitted it does not mean he could not have stopped it. Hmm?


Well, i do not accept that, since he is capable of keeping his words, it can not be best known to him for not keeping the three previous books, there should be a good reason, how could he tell without a reason, ok, he is unquestionable, but his words here are questionable and he need to tell us a reason, cos i see this as an incompetent answer that arises from the islam to claim the truth and you expect we should believe that without any tangible reason and evidence?

3. That's not what I was made to know, that's the fact.

produce your evidence

4. Islam is not falsehood, it is The One True Way.

Do you knoww there can never be two truths?, one is either false and the other fact, what evidence do you have to believe it is not falsehood?

5. I thought Jesus Christ was recorded in the bible to have said he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it? Why did you say the old laws passed out right after Jesus came?

I used the word passed out does not mean it is abolished, the fulmillment of the law was simple, he summarized the law into two, "Love your neighbour as your self" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might" , and that is the fulfillment of the law, cos when you love you will not do any thing bad to your neighbour or God.

And even if love for one's enemies was commanded, does that mean defense against their harm was completely prohibited? Or don't you know that the verse was referring to the enemies of Islam (not just any innocent by-stander), who wanted to cause undeserved harm to the Muslims?

defense just for a slap, can that lead to war?, muslims do not tolerate other religion, and the next is to defend their religion in the name of jihad, why? can't allah fight for himself, if he is capable and he is God, he does not need your help to fight for him? yes cos when you love your enemy, you will not see his fault and your love will draw him closer.

6. Apology accepted. I have never insulted you so do not insult me.

Fine

7. Please.
God does not demand perfectness from human beings. Only He is perfect. Humans are prone to mistakes, or erring. It's a quality that is inseperable from their being. There's no amount of gradual work that would make you a perfectly sinless human being. You could only succeed in being able to avoid sinning INTENTIONALLY. Not altogether. Because as a human being, you are imperfect. . .and you forget.

hmmmmmmmmmm and thats the difference between the God we serve and allah, our GOd demand perfectness, yes humans are not perfect but christians are perfect in the righteousness and perfetness of Christ and thats why for Christ's perfection to be ours, we ask for his forgiveness so we can be partaker of his righteousness. cos perfectness can not be attain humanly but can be spiritually which affects the physical

8. Ok.

hmmmm

9. Good. Hope the insult free relationship is here to stay. And about the site, Am okay with Islam. Infact I make prayers to live my entire life as a muslim and die as one also.

You are free to and as the quran says "there is no compulsion in religion".

Try to read and understand my points without bias. Thanks. It's not a war, it's just a religious discussion.

Thats not a problem. you are welcome

Okay.
I am going to do what I can today, regarding your points.
In no particular order:
* You said Mohammed (SAW) was the last prophet.
Very true. He was in fact the last prophet of The One True God. He never claimed to be God or the son of God, and he spread His Message and obeyed His decrees on earth. I see nothing wrong in his being a humble servant of God. A God who has no children by the way.

He claimed and according to the quran as there were no foretelling of a prophet

* Mohammed, while he was on earth, did act as an advocate for the believers. In Q19-47, he was told to ask for forgiveness of the sins of the believing men and believing women. The verse you quoted, talked about ONLY the disbelievers, and why intercession on their behalf was not accepted is because disbelievers are going to end up in hell on Judgement Day, regardless of how well behaved they were. Belief, (being a muslim) is the first requirement for salvation on Judgement Day, and those without it, have no need for forgiveness because their disbelief would make them end up in hell anyway.

That means only believers can be forgiven,


And. Muslims do not need an intercessor while on earth because in the Qur'an, we are told to seek forgiveness for our sins. Q4:110: "And whoever does any evil, or wrongs himself, then seeks God's forgiveness; he will find God Forgiving, Merciful. "So really, a go-between is not necessary, since seeking forgiveness and sincere repentance is all that is needed. God does not make going through advocates a requirement. He is Merciful enough to forgive after direct asking.

ok

* You said Muhammed is a servant of Allah. So? Are we not all God's servants? Are we not controlled by Him? Are we not UNDER OBLIGATION to do whatever He commands us? Is the consequence of disobedience not punishment? You'd agree with me that we are right? So what does that make us?


And do you know the difference between a slave and a servant, they are contextually same but intently different, A servant is not bound by any permanent deal and can refuse to work for his master, he can willfully and without force do the will of his master, but a slave is bound to the cause of his master and has no right of his own,


And I wonder how Jesus can be one with the father and be the father's son, and also be an advocate to the father.
All at once.

that is the mystery called Jesus, but if you quite agree that,
1. he was born of no man
2. he still lives
3. he will come back to judge th earth

then i wonder why you find it difficult to believe that he is God, an Advocate to the father. cos none of these qualities muhammad had, worse still for muhammad he will be granted shifa by the same Jesus

No offence.
* Muhammed DID perform miracles. I'll be back Insha Allah.

help me with them, with quranic references
thanks

This was a good read up!!

Wonderful piece!!

well, that is your own point of view, i may have portray  him bad, but all the references where from where?

I wonder if the muslims can use the same bolded phrase to simply blow off the critics of the Quran, Hadith, etc? "Well, that is your point of view" is so cliche and actually a copout. It brings to mind lack of evidential material to produce a substantiative argument for or against a position.

And have i not provided the vices, are they not true, fellis be sincere, and just like David had asked, what mean of spread?

And I have asked David to tell what means of spread used on Ijebu-Ode people or the Ibadans, and others of Yoruba land? I have asked the same question of David, many times without a response from him. Can you tell me how Ijebu-Ode people became muslims? Thats my father's home town.

Hmmmmmmm, i will quite agree with you but then, i only want you muslims to know that you highly esteemed prophet is not as good as proclaimed, and the quran confirms that.

Easier said than done. You have not given us a single verse from the Quran that says that he is not "as good as proclaimed". Can you please provide a verse, instead of your empty rhethorics.

I wonder proclaimed him "esteemed?" I said its the Author of Quran, Allah! And where is he proclaimed to be esteemed? In the Quran, by the Author. Many verses, and I will provide a single verse that mention esteem; read verse 4 of Surah Alam Nashra. Read the Quran, and see several verses, talking in good light about the prophet (AS). Then bring me a single verse from the Quran that talks about any vices you have said that he has.

and do you actually have the incorruptible bible, i will love to have one too

I have better idea for you: Produce a single Bible that will contain the same exact "Books, Chapters, Verses, words, and letters" that Catholics can use in their Churches and also that the Protestants can use in their Churches. I dare you to produce it. And if its not good enough for both sects; Roman catholics and Protestants of Europe, then thats your answer, corruption and more corrution!

You know, if a person ask Muslim the same question, he will take out a Quran that both Shia and Sunni sects will agree upon. Word for word, sentence for sentence, chapter for chapter and even in arrangements and pronounciations! Can you produce something like that of the Bble that is universally accepted to all Christians?

well, honestly i have not,

Honestly, there lies your dishonesty. I know, you are free to interprete corruption as uncorrupted!

which contradictions, the bible was written by different men and there are  bound to be textual, methodogical,seasonal and indiviual difference, way of expression, but an inspiration of God, and since we alll agree it was written by men, your so called contradictition is nullified. But the quran was directly dictated to muhammad yet full of contradictions, have you also not notice that?

He asked, which contradiction. Then he "contradicted" himself by presenting arguments about textual, methodogical and individual difference. Seeing how incorrect he is, he quickly blame it on the men who wrote it! Are men perfect? And they produce something without any flaw? This guy does not know how to argue, if his faith depends on it!

Can we compare the taste of the broth of a good cook, with the broth cooked by many chefs, taking turns in stirring, adding ingredients? Never, because each cook will confess that the outcome is not remotely near to what their individually prepared broth normally taste like. No wonder the expression; too many cooks spoil the broth! Your Bible with its too many human writers (is spoiled and its words are not in the original places) is like a broth, cooked by too many cooks, the taste is always compromised, spoiled.

well, i do not know or see any discrepancies, and if you believe God is too perfect to make a mistake, do you believe he could  keep his three previous books?

If you worship a God that is not too perfect that He is prone to making mistakes, what makes Him different than humans, who are struggling and trying to aspire to perfection? The God that humans can discover that He has made mistake is no God! I wonder if you know what you are saying about your Christian God. For sure you are not talking about Eloi that Moses worshipped and Jesus made prayers to!

And as to the 3 books that you mentioned; Torah, Psalm and Gospel in the Bible, you will need to read the Quran to see that Allah said that they are corrupt, while He promised to Safeguard the Quran from ever having any corruption enter it! Allah says to show how corrupt the Bible is, that the adherents divide among themselves and disagree on the very book, whereby some sects have their own, different from that of others!

Again I tender the Catholics' Douwy Bible and the Protestants' King James Bible as my very symbols of the Biblical corruptions! Read it and disprove my statement above! Tell me how many Books in each, when you present your rebuttals, please.

Well, i do not accept that, since he is capable of keeping his words, it can not be best known to him for not keeping the three previous books, there should be a good reason, how could he tell without a reason, ok, he is unquestionable, but his words here are questionable and he need to tell us a reason, cos i see this as an incompetent answer that arises from the islam to claim the truth and you expect we should believe that without any tangible reason and evidence?

Your argument opens windows to your weakness in many places. You are the same guy who is arguing that Jesus is God, when he actually had human form, ate foods of human. Drank the drinks of humans. Pee ed like humans. Did #2 like human. Everything he did was humanly. He was not the first to perform miracles. He was not the last either. I wonder how you could have been so blind in your faith to accept that? What tangible reason that you have for saying he is God, when he could not create, but he was created? He had no power of his own, except by permission of God that he was able to do anything! read your Bible and open your eyes very wide when you read it.

As to your question, I find it to come out of you by a disbelieving mindset. If you could believe that God could have stopped Satan from tempting and corrupting into disobedience Adam and his wife regarding the tree, if that was His plan, then know that everything is in the Will of God. God Almighty allowed Adam and Eve to show their weakness, which was a way to send them to earth to be able to be the custodians and populate it with their offsprings. But Allah shows Mercy to them my inspiring them to seek forgiveness from them as they realised their fault in their conscience. God granted them forgiveness from His Mercy, while the flip side was the obstinance of Satan who did not seek any forgiveness. By this, too, God exposed the enemity of satan against man.

As to the protection of the Quran, it is the last Book. Hence the last most be protected for those generations to come. The other Books of the Bible were allowed to have the hands of men as they will, if their community is corrupted. The corruptions never will stop, even though we will have traces of truth still in it. Even if they were not to have been corrupted, Quran would still have been revealed.

Take the case of Moses and his people, The Children of Israel. Afterall, Moses was a prophet who his God personally spoke to. Is there a higher honor than having the Audience of God many times? Yet other prophets came after him? What was their purpose, except it was in the plan of God that things must be exactly the way they turned out to be, since this life is a trial so that Hell fire can have its abundant of fuels in human flesh, etc? And that Paradise can also be a reward that is ultimate from Allah.

Could you tell me why New Testament, if Old Testament were good, before the Psalm? Why the Psalm? Again why Gospel after them and the last given to a prophet from the Children of Israel?

produce your evidence

Protestant's Bible versus Roman Catholic's?

Do you knoww there can never be two truths?, one is either false  and the other fact, what evidence do you have to believe it is not falsehood?

Evidence of falsehood is the many versions it has. Truth is one. Easy to hear, read and understand. If something is made for human mind, it should be easy for humans to understand, with any stretching in it. If its from God, there should not be a trace of human hands. There is one true; Quran. There are falsehoods: tons and tons of versions; Bible and more Bibles. Bring Catholic vesrion and compare it to Protestants. Am not even going to throw the Eastern Orthodox, or the Russians, or the Egyptians, or the Armenias and others into it! Just deal with Catholic and mainstreamProtestants, first.

I used the word passed out does not mean it is abolished, the fulmillment of the law was simple, he summarized the law into two, "Love  your neighbour as your self" and "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might" , and that is the fulfillment of the law, cos when you love you will not do any thing bad to your neighbour or God.

In all of that love, have you shown any on the web, right here towards the Muslims? Has any of you Christians lived by your stamement, above, ever? Is it possible to love without the ability to get upset and can not hate if only temporarily? I wonder what is the use of the OT if it is broken doen, all of it to a single sentence? What is the value of the statement of not here to abolish the prophets and their laws, if it just mean "love of God and neighbors?" I thought part of the things about Moses included wars, killings and even an eye for an eye? The Jews have not stopped warring whenever they have the upperhand. The Christians who have upperhand presently have never seen a war that they did not participate in or encouraged that it is waged. The Industrial complex for ar must be sustained.

Where is the love, man? And why say one thing and do the other? Jesus said he will not abolish and told no one shall abolish after him. Yet he said the summary of it all is Love? Now is there nothing wrong with that picture?

defense just for a slap, can that lead to war?, muslims do not tolerate other religion, and the next is to defend their religion in the name of jihad, why? can't allah fight for himself, if he is capable and he is God, he does not need your help to fight for him? yes cos when you love your enemy, you will not see his fault and your love will draw him closer.

The first world war started by slapping the face of a European Bishop. Bishop is Christian clergy. I hope you understand that there is no society that will sit idly and allow a raging lunatic to run them over. Love thy neighbor will definitely become kill that crazy neighbor and think about it later. You think the Chrstians are angels? Wrong, man.Actions of men are correspondent to the conditions of men.

hmmmmmmmmmm and thats the difference between the God we serve and allah, our GOd demand perfectness, yes humans are not perfect but christians are perfect in the righteousness and perfetness of Christ and thats why for Christ's perfection to be ours, we ask for his forgiveness so we can be partaker of his righteousness. cos perfectness can not be attain humanly but can be spiritually which affects the physical

And above you put forward the idea of a God that makes mistakes. Are you okay man, and do you have a consistent thought about God, or you make it up as you go?

He claimed and according to the quran as there were no foretelling of a prophet

Is there a foretelling of a prophet before him and none regarding to Muhammad? Before Moses started his Torah, no material could be written about him, by himself. Or is that possible?

Muhammad's clan and people knew something was special about Muhammad, if one were to look at his family, clan, his father and his mother and the year of his birth, how he grew up. All of these will tell you something about him, if you wish to know. Read his sirah. Then it happens that ahmad (his other name, along with Mustafa and other, with Muhammad) happens to have the same meaning as advocate or comforter. Is a person who brings mercy or a means of mercy and or forgivenss not a comforter? At least a comfort to the soul? The Shifa on the day of Judgement is greater than that on earth. Muhammad (AS) will make shifa on the day of Judgement. Read the ending verses of Surah Mariam.

And do you know the difference between a slave and a servant, they are contextually same but intently different, A servant is not bound by any permanent deal and can refuse to work for his master, he can willfully and without force do the will of his master, but a slave is bound to the cause of his master and has no right of his own,

A servant who refuses to obey Allah and thereby disobey Him will be worst that obedient slave in the day of judgement! Whie the muslims as slaves ask God directly. The christians who think that they are neither slave nor servants but children can dare ask the same God directly. Rather they make Jesus ask for them. Come to think of it if the actions are what define the title, then Muslims and Jesus are equal! If Muslims say that they are slaves, then Jesus is also a slave. Since Jesus never said he was a child of God, then the Muslims are not children of God.

Now, who is truly a slave with rights  and who is worse than a slave without the gull to approach God, between Muslims and Christians?

that is the mystery called Jesus, but if you quite agree that,
1. he was born of no man
2. he still lives
3. he will come back to judge th earth

then i wonder why you find it difficult to believe that he is God, an Advocate to the father. cos none of these qualities muhammad had, worse still for muhammad he will be granted shifa by the same Jesus

Where can I read the Shifa of Jesus on Muhammad? I wonder where I can read it? Your lies have no boundary. You lie with impunity. And no quality in the 1-3, that tell us that Jesus is more than a prophet! Heck, Michelle Feiffer of Hollywood had a child in the 80s wthout even pregnant. The surrogate mother(s) are for hire these days. There are sperm banks where a woman can order a specific look of a father for a future baby! What are you talking about? By the way the word Shifa is Quranic? I wonder if Muhammad alone was not the audience of the Quran? Or was Jesus also an audience How could shifa be referring to him, since what was said about him is very clear and the muslims are not confused about it.

Show me what will qualify Jesus as God; his knowing the "time of the hour," or his not knowing that a fig tree can not have fruits off season? If there was a time to show indipendent superiority, that was it and he could not command a single fruit to quench his own hunger! Or according to you, his death reveals him for what he is; Human. I say his death is still in the future, which makes him human, still.There is no mystery in reality, man.

help me with them, with quranic references
thanks

Surah Isra. Surah Najm, spoke about his heavenly journey. Is there a greater Miracle than travelling to heavens and returning, alive, all in part of a night?

Olabowale, jazakallahu khayran.

fellis:

Okay.
I am going to do what I can today, regarding your points.
In no particular order:
* You said Mohammed (SAW) was the last prophet.
Very true. He was in fact the last prophet of The One True God. He never claimed to be God or the son of God, and he spread His Message and obeyed His decrees on earth. I see nothing wrong in his being a humble servant of God.

This is not a fact but mohammad's fantasy.

1. Which "one true god" are you refering to? Neither the jews nor the christians know him. You mean the "God" of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? That's impossible.

fellis:

A God who has no children by the way.

Neither does the Christian God have biological children in the sense of the word. But He has divine children like us.

fellis:

* Mohammed, while he was on earth, did act as an advocate for the believers. In Q19-47, he was told to ask for forgiveness of the sins of the believing men and believing women. The verse you quoted, talked about ONLY the disbelievers, and why intercession on their behalf was not accepted is because disbelievers are going to end up in hell on Judgement Day, regardless of how well behaved they were. Belief, (being a muslim) is the first requirement for salvation on Judgement Day, and those without it, have no need for forgiveness because their disbelief would make them end up in hell anyway.

Surah 19:71 says ALL MUSLIMS will end in hell anyway so what really is the above nonsense?

fellis:

And. Muslims do not need an intercessor while on earth because in the Qur'an, we are told to seek forgiveness for our sins. Q4:110: "And whoever does any evil, or wrongs himself, then seeks God's forgiveness; he will find God Forgiving, Merciful. "So really, a go-between is not necessary, since seeking forgiveness and sincere repentance is all that is needed. God does not make going through advocates a requirement. He is Merciful enough to forgive after direct asking.

Essentially what islam is . . . a direct affront to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and nothing more.

fellis:

* You said Muhammed is a servant of Allah. So? Are we not all God's servants? Are we not controlled by Him? Are we not UNDER OBLIGATION to do whatever He commands us? Is the consequence of disobedience not punishment? You'd agree with me that we are right? So what does that make us?

No we are not servants of the demon called allah.

fellis:

And I wonder how Jesus can be one with the father and be the father's son, and also be an advocate to the father.

Because you dont understand it does not mean it doesnt make sense.

fellis:

* Muhammed DID perform miracles. I'll be back Insha Allah.

Where are they? you've been promising to "come back" since.