You are so not awed and astonished.
The supernatural turned to pyramids. What can one say?

Mad_Max:

You are so not awed and astonished.
The supernatural turned to pyramids. What can one say?

I am confused

See his head. I was teasing you.

Mad_Max:

See his head. I was teasing you.

Ah you got me there seriously though were you insinuating that scientists in this century are no different from their past colleagues?

So sorry! I've been excruciatingly busy.
Am I insinuating the sun goes down everyday and the moon comes up a spell? Naw. No insinuations.It's a self-evident fact.

Are people any different from those in the past? No. Whatever their profession now, scientist, archeologist, chemist, thief, librarian,our brains are no different from those in eras past, and we're not in any way smarter than they merely because they lived in 200AD and you live in 2009 AD.There's a common tendency to think each civilization is 'better' than those past, that progress itself progresses like an arrow, in a straight line. It does no such thing. Each era is self-contained in its progress, and each has remarkable acheivements in diverse fields of knowledge. Scientists might even have it easy now. They innovtae, but they also build and improve upon the work of genuises past. Scientists who didn't have as much as they do now or know as much as has been discovered cummulatively, but who blazed trails and opened fields to new knowledge.

Look at Islam and Arabian scientists, for instance. The greatest thinker of the 11th century (or was it the 13 th?) was a Muslim Arab. The greatest thinker in the world! Centuries before that they led the field in Astronomy and other sciences, and their contributions to mathematics is incalculable. You wouldn't have this numeral without them (0). I think they gave us numbers and values: 1,2,3,4,5etc. The only discipline they lagged behind was in biology. You wouldn't look at them now and believe that, would you? Would you say their progress has been linear? No. Like every era it's been contained within itself, and the present is in no way superior to the past in terms of "progress'.

Mad_Max:

So sorry! I've been excruciatingly busy.
Am I insinuating the sun goes down everyday and the moon comes up a spell? Naw. No insinuations.It's a self-evident fact.

Are people any different from those in the past? No. Whatever their profession now, scientist, archeologist, chemist, thief, librarian,our brains are no different from those in eras past, and we're not in any way smarter than they merely because they lived in 200AD and you live in 2009 AD.There's a common tendency to think each civilization is 'better' than those past, that progress itself progresses like an arrow, in a straight line. It does no such thing. Each era is self-contained in its progress, and each has remarkable acheivements in diverse fields of knowledge. Scientists might even have it easy now. They innovtae, but they also build and improve upon the work of genuises past. Scientists who didn't have as much as they do now or know as much as has been discovered cummulatively, but who blazed trails and opened fields to new knowledge.

Look at Islam and Arabian scientists, for instance. The greatest thinker of the 11th century (or was it the 13 th?) was a Muslim Arab. The greatest thinker in the world! Centuries before that they led the field in Astronomy and other sciences, and their contributions to mathematics is incalculable. You wouldn't have this numeral without them (0). I think they gave us numbers and values: 1,2,3,4,5etc. The only discipline they lagged behind was in biology. You wouldn't look at them now and believe that, would you? Would you say their progress has been linear? No. Like every era it's been contained within itself, and the present is in no way superior to the past in terms of "progress'.

qft
I agree with you 100 per cent.

I've got another possible way of distinguishing the Natural from the Supernatural.

Natural would refer to events that have their cause in a prior event. For example, I'm hale and hearty naturally because I eat amala and efo stew. My good diet has led to my good health. The chain of causality is linear extending from the past through to the future.

Supernatural would then refer to events that do not necessarily have their cause in a prior event. If it can be demonstrated that the cause of an event does not lie in a prior event then we have proof of a supernatural event.

Mad_Max link=topic=280962:

Quote from: Pastor AIO on June 15, 2009, 02:10 PM
I meant to say that there are Other intelligent species on earth. They don't necessarily have to be extra terrestrial.

I don't get your meaning.

Alien abduction/ufo sightings being interpreted as extraterrestrial only really started in America when the Space Race began. The idea of interplanetary travel is what fuelled this.
However that does not mean that the phenomena didn't exist previously. They were probably just interpreted differently because the concept of interplanetary travel hadn't gained currency.

An interpretation that I find more likely is that any other intelligent species that we might encounter might well belong to Earth and have been here for a long time. They don't have to be extra terrestrial.

Most cultures in the world have tales of other folk whether it is of Leprechauns, Elfs or whatever. Iwin in yoruba etc.

We know for a fact that there was another intelligent species of humans in europe called the Neanderthals. They died out. But if there are any other intelligent species around they could also be terrestrial and have their own technology that is quite different from our own. Including technology to disappear from our perception.

I've been following this thread awhile. Haven't posted cuz I don't wanna get addicted to coming here and cuz d trio of Max, Pilgrim & pastor have been more than enough. Plus I generally like to listen more than talk. Muslims believe in Jinns who like humans will face judgement. They also have free will but God have them way more power than humans. Of course this is a mere point of view and not subject to empirical justification. More in a bit

On the face off between intellect being linear or cyclic, Lemme give an example: a chess grandmaster from 1762 will hold his own with any contemporary one. This is cuz chess is simple enough for only your intellect to show and it's complex enough for your intellect to shine through. I hope the distinction is noted. Even then the advantage of cumulative knowledge isn't removed. It is only minimised. I support the cyclic notion apparently.

On the face off between intellect being linear or cyclic, Lemme give an example: a chess grandmaster from 1762 will hold his own with any contemporary one. This is cuz chess is simple enough for only your intellect to show and it's complex enough for your intellect to shine through. I hope the distinction is noted. Even then the advantage of cumulative knowledge isn't removed. It is only minimised. I support the cyclic notion apparently.

It is not just the intellect though but Process that is both linear and cyclical. By Process I mean each and every process in existence. Wherever there is change, wherever a situation evolves from one state to another. In other words the entirety of Temporal reality. Wherever Time is found to exist.

There is a big humongous assumption in modern thought that that Process is linear. It is reflected in science and the way scientists think (I remember Huxley saying that a paradigm shift in science is not likely to occur to which I responded with silence cos I didn't think going into it would serve the thread that we were on, but actually I can see a 1000 and one ways that science can undergo a paradigm shift), It is also reflected in the way certain religionists think.

The entire idea of history as a linear phenomenon starting with a beginning in the distant past and building up cumulatively to an Apocalyptic Last Days belongs to this way of thinking. There are other traditions that see history as a cyclical phenomenon and shape their beliefs accordingly.

Here are a few examples of some cosmologies that regard Time as a cyclical phenomenon.

Yuga (Devanāgari: युग) in Hindu philosophy is the name of an 'epoch' or 'era' within a cycle of four ages. These are the Satya Yuga (or Krita Yuga), the Treta Yuga, the Dvapara Yuga and finally the Kali Yuga. According to Hindu cosmology, the world is created, destroyed and recreated every 4,320,000 years (Maha Yuga) [1]. The cycles are said to repeat like the seasons, waxing and waning within a greater time-cycle of the creation and destruction of the universe. Like Summer, Spring, Winter and Autumn, each yuga involves stages or gradual changes which the earth and the consciousness of mankind goes through as a whole. A complete yuga cycle from a high Golden Age of enlightenment to a Dark Age and back again is said to be caused by the solar system's motion around a central sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga

This was the case in scandinavia too.

In Norse mythology, Ragnarök (pronounced /ˈræɡnərɒk/;[2] Old Norse [rɑɡnɑrøk] "final destiny of the gods"[3]) is a series of major events, including a great battle foretold to ultimately result in the death of a number of major figures (including the gods Odin, Thor, Freyr, Heimdall, and the jötunn Loki), the occurrence of various natural disasters, and the subsequent submersion of the world in water. Afterward, the world resurfaces anew and fertile, the surviving gods meet, and the world is repopulated by two human survivors. Ragnarök is an important event in the Norse canon, and has been the subject of scholarly discourse and theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarök

That I'm aware of, the first great eschatological religion that saw time coming to a great culmination after which the world would forever cease to exist is Zoroastrianism. They see history as a great battle between Good and Evil which will eventually end with the destruction of evil after which history will come to a close. Zoroastrianism was the official religion of the Persian empire.

Vesc?

Time as a cyclical phenomenon? Weren't we talking about 'progress' as non-linear?
Time wasn't always linear, it wasn't always measured the way we measure it now. I think it's long been discovered to be one of the most elastic stuff in the universe, thanks to Einsteins theory of relativity. But even before he came along, time wasn't measured linear. And time is different in the universe. Time ticks a different way on the moon,etc, and in space itself. That's why cosmologists have so much fun with their Twin Paradox.

I'm reading Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alessandra David-Neel. She was a French scholar who studied at the Surborne in Paris and went to Tibet for a scholarly project on oriental mysticism. She saw more than she baragined for, ended up staying for 14 years learning under her spiritual master, adn became the only European woman to become a lama, a Tibetan Master or Monk. The books is an excellent introduction to Tibetan Buddism, and Tibetan religious philosophy is enthralling. Her rational, clear-eyed approach to mysticism is refreshing.I've been reading up on Buddist philosophy for a while; but there are so many schools of thought, though it's certainly not boring. It's the most philosophically advanced and enthralling religion on earth. You see where authors of books like THE GRAIL MESSAGE (Oskar Ernst Bernhardt) get their material. Everything in that book is,of course, from Buddist religious thought, with a smattering of 'Christianity' to give it some oomph. If one were inclined in that direction, give The Grail Message a miss and go for the real deal, the motherlode, in Tibetan Buddhism.

You read a passage in these Buddist texts and you KNOW what it's saying is true. Of course, being a Christian, I see one or two things differently, but oh my lawd it's fascinating stuff. When people die their spirits experience all sorts of things. In NDEs we have Hindis seeing their gods, muslims seeing theirs, Christians seeing theirs,ect. Each sees what they believe in. I've wondered at this. (Of course, these people come back; we have no idea what really happens to the spirits of those irrevocably dead) And there are explanations for this from Christian religious thought. I was enthralled to read what Tibetan Masters had to say on the subject.

Magic and Mystery in Tibet is excellent. Highly recommended as an introduction to oriental religious philosophy.

You see where authors of books like THE GRAIL MESSAGE (Oskar Ernst Bernhardt) get their material. Everything in that book is,of course, from Buddist religious thought, with a smattering of 'Christianity' to give it some oomph. If one were inclined in that direction, give The Grail Message a miss and go for the real deal, the motherlode, in Tibetan Buddhism.

Can you furnsih evidence for the assertions you made above, ie, show that "everything in the book ( Grail Message) is , of course from Buddhist religious thought", and that Oskar Ernst Bernhardt got the material for writing the Grail Message from Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks

m_nwankwo:

Can you furnsih evidence for the assertions you made above, ie, show that "everything in the book ( Grail Message) is , of course from Buddhist religious thought", and that Oskar Ernst Bernhardt got the material for writing the Grail Message from Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks

I would be interested to know this too. I still haven't read the Grail Message book, but I know a tiny little bit about Tibetan buddhism.

I think that if you looked at any religion deep enough you'll be inclined to the realisation that they all have soo much in common at their core. I'm talking about those religions that have an experiential basis.

Mad_Max:


I'm reading Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alessandra David-Neel. She was a French scholar who studied at the Surborne in Paris and went to Tibet for a scholarly project on oriental mysticism. She saw more than she baragined for, ended up staying for 14 years learning under her spiritual master, adn became the only European woman to become a lama, a Tibetan Master or Monk. The books is an excellent introduction to Tibetan Buddism, and Tibetan religious philosophy is enthralling. Her rational, clear-eyed approach to mysticism is refreshing.I've been reading up on Buddist philosophy for a while; but there are so many schools of thought, though it's certainly not boring. It's the most philosophically advanced and enthralling religion on earth. You see where authors of books like THE GRAIL MESSAGE (Oskar Ernst Bernhardt) get their material. Everything in that book is,of course, from Buddist religious thought, with a smattering of 'Christianity' to give it some oomph. If one were inclined in that direction, give The Grail Message a miss and go for the real deal, the motherlode, in Tibetan Buddhism.

You read a passage in these Buddist texts and you KNOW what it's saying is true. Of course, being a Christian, I see one or two things differently, but oh my lawd it's fascinating stuff. When people die their spirits experience all sorts of things. In NDEs we have Hindis seeing their gods, muslims seeing theirs, Christians seeing theirs,ect. Each sees what they believe in. I've wondered at this. (Of course, these people come back; we have no idea what really happens to the spirits of those irrevocably dead) And there are explanations for this from Christian religious thought. I was enthralled to read what Tibetan Masters had to say on the subject.

Magic and Mystery in Tibet is excellent. Highly recommended as an introduction to oriental religious philosophy.

I remember reading Bardo Thodol many years ago. It's also called the Tibetan book or the Dead. It was fascinating. Tibetan religion is a mix of the old shamanic beliefs indigenous to Tibet and Buddhism, and plenty plenty of Tantric ideology (Tantra is came to them from india and it sees the world as the product of the interation between two procreative forces, one male and the other female). They practice possession trance and other shamanic techniques as well as the Buddhist quest for liberation. Their iconography is also something quite special. But then I've always loved Tantric iconography. My uncle came to my home once and was spooked because he thought that I'd turned to worshipping Hindu dieties. I have many Siva-Shakti yoni-lingam images.

There was a guy in the 60s called Timothy Leary who wrote a commentary on the Bardo Thodol and applied it to the use of LSD.

Dr. Timothy Leary's LSD Research


The following is an excerpt from Ralph Metzner's excellent book, The Psychedelic Experience. It is based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead and co-authored by the late Timothy Leary.

A psychedelic experience is a journey to new realms of consciousness. The scope and content of the experience is limitless, but its characteristic features are the transcendence of verbal concepts, of space-time dimensions, and of the ego or identity. Such experiences of enlarged consciousness can occur in a variety of ways: sensory deprivation, yoga exercises, disciplined meditation, religious or aesthetic ecstasies, or spontaneously. Most recently they have become available to anyone through the ingestion of psychedelic drugs such as LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, DMT, etc.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/lsd02.html
[img]http://[/img]
http://www.healerhere.com/Tantric%20buddha.jpg
[img]http://
[/img]
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.realization.org/art/tantra_path_of_ecstasy_detail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.realization.org/page/topics/tantra.htm&usg=__FcrV_PkgLeNpxDg-SCCm7ijgbKM=&h=251&w=250&sz=10&hl=en&start=11&sig2=7PEQyMty37y4sBgpdDmoTA&um=1&tbnid=bHsvPolVepGxgM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtantra%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=mJ5QSouOLte2jAfBrtjIBQ

Tantra is both a kind of yoga and an element that's found to some extent in many other kinds of yoga. It began in India about fifteen hundred years ago. It has heavily influenced both Hinduism and Buddhism.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2150/1675547854_6cb5bcd467.jpg?v=0

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Tantra/zg79.jpg

Max. I was talking about intellectual prowess earlier and not time being cyclic. Time indeed is one elastic stuff. So intangible and so 'there'. The way I see it, human intellect is normally distributed (I mean IQ ranges thru a normal curve) in every generation. This means for every age a fairly constant percentage will be geniuses and one genius from one age being absolutely the equal of another genius from another age.

m_nwankwo:

Can you furnsih evidence for the assertions you made above, ie, show that "everything in the book ( Grail Message) is , of course from Buddhist religious thought", and that Oskar Ernst Bernhardt got the material for writing the Grail Message from Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks

Not Tibetan Buddhism- Just Buddism. It's an odd question to be asking. Given that The Grail message talks about reincarnation and karma and thought-forms,etc ,all Buddhist doctines, where oh where did he get his material from?  Oskar must have time-travelled and been born before Buddha,and orignated those concepts himself.
You've applied his teachings to your life for two decades and they work.Of course it does; Buddism is very hands on, and its adepts are full of dangerous, arcane knowledge. There's much to be learned from it. It doesn't dislodge my Christian faith in any way, but the Buddist scripture and philosophy is fascinating. The Grail Message is a bucket of water compared to the ocean of Buddist thought, and if I were you, since you're inclined in that direction, Buddism is the way to go, not a pastiche of Buddism smeared with 'Christianity'.

You've applied his teachings. You've applied his brand of Buddism and seen the light. So every single thing in his book must be 'the truth'.
Hah!
The truth is the most elusive thing on earth, man. There are no absolute truths, just subjective versions of it, and they differ man to man. It'smazingly common self-deception to claim sole recipience of 'truth',to believe yourself the repository of 'true' knowledge, to think you have found 'the way', to regard others with pity because they don't know what you know, they don't get it, they think they do but they're merely wandering in the dark. The way and the truth has been revealed to you.

A disease  common to man and one from which Oskar certainly suffered. Yes, I know you've imbued him with infallibility, but he's just a man and The Grail Message's just a book, and neither is infallible, hower much you'd like to think so. The Grail Message would reconcile Buddism with Christianity and in so doing, has twisted the latter beyond recognition.  It only has pretensions to Christianity if it rejects what Christ himself said. But I forget, The Grail Message is a higher authority than the Bible. Its author, who cites no references or sources other than himself, knows more about Christ and his expressly stated purpose than Christ himself.

Have you read the Buddist Holy books? Unlikely,or you wouldn't be asking how I knew Grail was a pastiche of Buddist religious thought and 'Christianity'. Read Buddist holy books and religious philosophy,and then come and tell me which ideas in the The Grail Message are original: Karma and reincarnation perhaps?

Pastor AIO:

I would be interested to know this too. I still haven't read the Grail Message book, but I know a tiny little bit about Tibetan buddhism.

I think that if you looked at any religion deep enough you'll be inclined to the realisation that they all have soo much in common at their core. I'm talking about those religions that have an experiential basis.


I remember reading Bardo Thodol many years ago. It's also called the Tibetan book or the Dead. It was fascinating. Tibetan religion is a mix of the old shamanic beliefs indigenous to Tibet and Buddhism, and plenty plenty of Tantric ideology (Tantra is came to them from india and it sees the world as the product of the interation between two procreative forces, one male and the other female). They practice possession trance and other shamanic techniques as well as the Buddhist quest for liberation. Their iconography is also something quite special. But then I've always loved Tantric iconography. My uncle came to my home once and was spooked because he thought that I'd turned to worshipping Hindu dieties. I have many Siva-Shakti yoni-lingam images.

You've read the Tibetan Bookof the Dead? You lucky thing, I've only been getting snippets, and fascinating they are too. Buddism,like every other religion, has sects and schools of thought that disagree. Some accept the Bardo as a real place, a region through wohc spirits sojourn beofre they get to 'the Judge of the Dead'.Other schools deny the existence of wsuch a region. You must read Magic and Mystery in Tibet. You'll love it.

vescucci:

Max. I was talking about intellectual prowess earlier and not time being cyclic. Time indeed is one elastic stuff. So intangible and so 'there'. The way I see it, human intellect is normally distributed (I mean IQ ranges thru a normal curve) in every generation. This means for every age a fairly constant percentage will be geniuses and one genius from one age being absolutely the equal of another genius from another age.

Absolutely.

Not Tibetan Buddhism- Just Buddism. It's an odd question to be asking. Given that The Grail message talks about reincarnation and karma and thought-forms,etc ,all Buddhist doctines, where oh where did he get his material from?  Oskar must have time-travelled and been born before Buddha,and orignated those concepts himself.
You've applied his teachings to your life for two decades and they work.Of course it does; Buddism is very hands on, and its adepts are full of dangerous, arcane knowledge. There's much to be learned from it. It doesn't dislodge my Christian faith in any way, but the Buddist scripture and philosophy is fascinating. The Grail Message is a bucket of water compared to the ocean of Buddist thought, and if I were you, since you're inclined in that direction, Buddism is the way to go, not a pastiche of Buddism smeared with 'Christianity'

Is this the evidence that the Grail Message got its materials from Buddhism? What are thought forms and how are they formed based on Budhhist doctrines and Grail Message? What does Buddhism explain reincarnation as and what is the description from the Grail Message? It is irrelevant to me what you think about the Grail Message. Afterall, it is your choice.

You've applied his teachings. You've applied his brand of Buddism and seen the light. So every single thing in his book must be 'the truth'.
Hah!
The truth is the most elusive thing on earth, man. There are no absolute truths, just subjective versions of it, and they differ man to man. It'smazingly common self-deception to claim sole recipience of 'truth',to believe yourself the repository of 'true' knowledge, to think you have found 'the way', to regard others with pity because they don't know what you know, they don't get it, they think they do but they're merely wandering in the dark. The way and the truth has been revealed to you.

Truth is as clear as clarity. I am permitted to know the Truth and I make no apologies for that. What others think of what I am blessed to know is their bussiness, not mine. Thus I have no need to respond to your allegations above.

A disease  common to man and one from which Oskar certainly suffered. Yes, I know you've imbued him with infallibility, but he's just a man and The Grail Message's just a book, and neither is infallible, hower much you'd like to think so. The Grail Message would reconcile Buddism with Christianity and in so doing, has twisted the latter beyond recognition.  It only has pretensions to Christianity if it rejects what Christ himself said. But I forget, The Grail Message is a higher authority than the Bible. Its author, who cites no references or sources other than himself, knows more about Christ and his expressly stated purpose than Christ himself.

These are your views and you are entitled to them. Again what you think about my convictions, the Grail Message or its author is irrelevant to me. Just provide the evidence that the Grail Message obtained its materials from Buddhism. That is what is relevant to the discussion.

Have you read the Buddist Holy books? Unlikely,or you wouldn't be asking how I knew Grail was a pastiche of Buddist religious thought and 'Christianity'. Read Buddist holy books and religious philosophy,and then come and tell me which ideas in the The Grail Message are original: Karma and reincarnation perhaps?

No, I have not read any of the Buddhist holy books. But with my spirit I know who Guatama Buddha is and what are his teachings. I know that he is a prophet of God who faithfully fufilled his mission. I know that he is a human spirit who attained spiritual illumination or enlightment. Gautama Budhha is however, not a son of God but a human spirit. I do not read sacred  books of world religions anymore for I have no need to. If I seriously need an information about any event or process, I look upwards  to God in prayers and what transpired will be reproduced for me in vivid pictures. Sacred books can only point the way to spiritual knowlege but the way itself is not the spiritual knowlege. Spiritual knowlege can only be gained through experiences with spiritual faculties. Individauls who study sacred texts of world religions can at best be religious scholars but not spiritully knowing ones. To be a spiritually knowing one requires an activation of the spiritual faculties by the power of God. For a spiritually knowing one, the past, the present and the future can be surveyed because in reality Time stands still. Thus what happened a trillion earth years is still there, what is happening today is still there and what will happen in a trillion earth years from today has already happened and can be reproduced even now. The grace to open ones spiritual faculties and dig out from Time records of the so called past, present and future is open to all human beings. Best wishes.

Max, lol. You're like pancakes. Your sarcasm is like syrup. You're dripping.

Mr. Nwankwo. I like people who make their own rules and who refuse to be dogmatically chaperoned, like you. I also think truth is clear and singular but we only perceive thru the thick lens of our faculties, i.e. it's subjective. I am not wont to comment on some things cuz they might prove touchy. A summary: you can prove something is, by proving it cannot but be, dig?

I think Madmax is confusing the soul with the brain.

Mad_Max:
The Grail Message is a bucket of water compared to the ocean of Buddist thought, and if I were you, since you're inclined in that direction, Buddism is the way to go, not a pastiche of Buddism smeared with 'Christianity'.

The truth is the most elusive thing on earth, man. There are no absolute truths, just subjective versions of it, and they differ man to man. It'smazingly common self-deception to claim sole recipience of 'truth',to believe yourself the repository of 'true' knowledge, to think you have found 'the way', to regard others with pity because they don't know what you know, they don't get it, they think they do but they're merely wandering in the dark. The way and the truth has been revealed to you.

Mad_Max I think that you're being a bit harsh. I don't think M_Nwankwo has claimed or acted like he is the 'sole recipient of true knowledge'. Maybe on some other post that I'm fortunate never to have seen, but from what I know of him it seems you've misjudged him.

I don't think there is a source of Truth that is purer or more original than any other source. I, too, am blown away by the richness and detail of some buddhist ideologies. Like I said I'm a big fan of their iconography, yet that doesn't mean that it is the original source of Truth. Even if there are many similarities with Grail Message (I've got to read this book).

This ties in neatly with the possible definitions of natural vs supernatural I was discussing earlier. When you have 2 similar forms then possibly one is derived from the other across Time. In other words one is prior to the other in Time and the secondary follows after. This is a temporal causal link and would belong to the Natural. However there is another possibility that rather than one being a derivative of the other they are both derivative of a source that is not temporal but outside the realms of time. So the existence of one does not depend on the existence of the other but rather depends on their common source. The connection between them would therefore be Supernatural, not dependent on Temporal process.

vescucci:

Max. I was talking about intellectual prowess earlier and not time being cyclic. Time indeed is one elastic stuff. So intangible and so 'there'. The way I see it, human intellect is normally distributed (I mean IQ ranges thru a normal curve) in every generation. This means for every age a fairly constant percentage will be geniuses and one genius from one age being absolutely the equal of another genius from another age.

What do you mean by intelligence? How do you define it and how do you measure it?

What do you think of the idea that there are different types of intelligences? Have you heard of Emotional Intelligence?

Is it the same intelligence that an artist uses to paint that an accountant uses to fiddle his taxes?

What do you understand by the term genius?

Mad_Max:

The truth is the most elusive thing on earth, man. There are no absolute truths, just subjective versions of it, and they differ man to man. It'smazingly common self-deception to claim sole recipience of 'truth',to believe yourself the repository of 'true' knowledge, to think you have found 'the way', to regard others with pity because they don't know what you know, they don't get it, they think they do but they're merely wandering in the dark. The way and the truth has been revealed to you.
A disease  common to man and one from which Oskar certainly suffered.

Oh My God. I don't know whether to laugh or be distressed. That statement was OBVIOUSLY a general statement,and I made plain who it was intended for: OSKAR, author of the Grail Message. Why would you think that statement was referring to you,m_nwankwo? The thought never entered my mind; I was making a general statement. Good grief!   
As for proof his ideas were borrowed, they're in Buddist religious writing. You can begin with Magic and Mystery in Tibet before the formal religious and philosophical texts.

Pastor AIO:

Mad_Max I think that you're being a bit harsh. I don't think M_Nwankwo has claimed or acted like he is the 'sole recipient of true knowledge'. Maybe on some other post that I'm fortunate never to have seen, but from what I know of him it seems you've misjudged him.

The statement wasn't intended for him and I'm frankly amazed it was interpreted that way. He happens to be one of my favourite people on NL. Even without having met him one can sense his worth and his basic goodness. So no,I haven't misjudged him. However, if you've never gone to the source of the ideas in The Grail Message, the book will have a powerful effect on you. The fact remains, its ideas are borrowed from Buddism.

fyneguy:

I think Madmax is confusing the soul with the brain.

How do you mean?

SUPERNATURAL:?

Then UFOS, BRAIN ACTIVITY, ATHEISM, and stuffs like that. Someone wants to know what the supernatural is all about. These things are quite and very natural. In case you do not believe in them UFOs exist. The average human beings uses 10percent of his brain, simply because he doesn't want to trouble himself(thinking). Therefore the brain activities recorded in the normal human per day is just less than ten percent. But that doesn't mean some don't make up to 60percent use. It's not easy to focus on anything. Levitation, telepathy, mind reading, distance healing, appearing in many places at the same time, astral projection and OBEs are all psychological developed abilities. Nothing supernatural about that. When I hear supernatural, it's simply things regarding the 'worlds' beyond. Like communicating with ghosts, advanced future fortelling, worshiping idols and things like that. They are supernatural simply because they deal with things we don't understand. The vast laws of nature set in the beginning by God. We hardly realise the power in 'belief'. Without belief, nothing is true and vice versa. Why most of these concepts are not common is simply because people don't want to believe them, because to them, it is 'abnormal.' So many wise people have said. 'What the mind can conceive, it can achieve'. Whatever we can imagine, has a way it will happen as long as you strongly believe it.

If anyone is still interested in these things, I can give them links to develop them. These are things that have ever been close to us but we cannot reach them. Wisdom is always waiting to embrace those who want it.

Pastor AIO:

Mad_Max I think that you're being a bit harsh. I don't think M_Nwankwo has claimed or acted like he is the 'sole recipient of true knowledge'. Maybe on some other post that I'm fortunate never to have seen, but from what I know of him it seems you've misjudged him.

I don't think there is a source of Truth that is purer or more original than any other source. I, too, am blown away by the richness and detail of some buddhist ideologies. Like I said I'm a big fan of their iconography, yet that doesn't mean that it is the original source of Truth. Even if there are many similarities with Grail Message (I've got to read this book).

This ties in neatly with the possible definitions of natural vs supernatural I was discussing earlier. When you have 2 similar forms then possibly one is derived from the other across Time. In other words one is prior to the other in Time and the secondary follows after. This is a temporal causal link and would belong to the Natural. However there is another possibility that rather than one being a derivative of the other they are both derivative of a source that is not temporal but outside the realms of time. So the existence of one does not depend on the existence of the other but rather depends on their common source. The connection between them would therefore be Supernatural, not dependent on Temporal process.

Hi Pastor. Thanks for your kind words. Your last paragraph above is filled with wisdom and only those who have been blessed with experiencing with their spiritual faculties will understand the deep truth that you encapsulated in that last paragraph. Even on this nairaland in several posts, the Grail Message has been alleged to borrow from the bible, gnostic scriptures, buddhism, Hinduism and what ever religion or movement people can think off. This is not new for even when the author of the Grail Message was on earth, people made the similar allegations. He was accused of borrowing from theosophy, anthroposophy, christianity, Budhism, etc. I am not interested in responding to these allegations for any person who have examined the Grail Message and thinks that the author borrowed from other endeavours, and that their is nothing new in it should hold to that view which is a reflection of the persons own choice and consequent spiritual awareness. It is not my bussiness to change any persons view.  I was spritually led to the Grail Message even when I was unaware that  such a work exists on earth. Divine guidance will always lead any soul that seeks for the Truth to the Truth. Human participation is not required. Stay blessed.

vescucci:

Max, lol. You're like pancakes. Your sarcasm is like syrup. You're dripping.

Mr. Nwankwo. I like people who make their own rules and who refuse to be dogmatically chaperoned, like you. I also think truth is clear and singular but we only perceive thru the thick lens of our faculties, i.e. it's subjective. I am not wont to comment on some things cuz they might prove touchy. A summary: you can prove something is, by proving it cannot but be, dig?

Thanks for your kind words. I agree with you that the Truth is clear but the perception varies. The perception of the Truth is determined by each individuals spiritual maturity. Thus, it is differences in spiritual maturity that brings about differences in perception. As people mature they come closer and closer to the Truth until the Truth becomes an integral part of their being. At that point, perceptions or forms of the truth cease to exist. What exists is the Truth and not a perception of the Truth. When human beings attain a spiritual maturity that is enough to enter the kingdom of God, perception collapses for the lenses of perception cease to exist, that is, the spirit experiences with a spiritual body and its spiritual faculties and not lenses (several non- spiritual bodies) that previously encapsulated the spirit. At this point each spirit will have identical experiences. Stay blessed.

Mad_Max:


I'm reading Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alessandra David-Neel. She was a French scholar who studied at the Surborne in Paris and went to Tibet for a scholarly project on oriental mysticism. She saw more than she baragined for, ended up staying for 14 years learning under her spiritual master, adn became the only European woman to become a lama, a Tibetan Master or Monk. The books is an excellent introduction to Tibetan Buddism, and Tibetan religious philosophy is enthralling. Her rational, clear-eyed approach to mysticism is refreshing.I've been reading up on Buddist philosophy for a while; but there are so many schools of thought, though it's certainly not boring. It's the most philosophically advanced and enthralling religion on earth. You see where authors of books like THE GRAIL MESSAGE (Oskar Ernst Bernhardt) get their material. Everything in that book is,of course, from Buddist religious thought, with a smattering of 'Christianity' to give it some oomph. If one were inclined in that direction, give The Grail Message a miss and go for the real deal, the motherlode, in Tibetan Buddhism.

The above is not always correct. Just because two people talks of the same concept doesn't mean that one of them got it from the other. All religions and sects in the world, at some point in there doctrine, have believes that are similar. This does not qualify the hastily assumption that they got it from each other.
If somebody writes about the sun in Nigerian and another writes about the sun in America. You don't conclude that one got his idea from the other; could also be that both wrote from their personal experience since both can see and experience the sun from their locations.
In school I always ague with colleagues who think that ancient Incas, Mayan, and the ancient Chinese stole their civilization from ancient Egypt, just because both cultures built pyramids. I know this is off topic but it is a similar thought pattan
Besides, I have read so many books by Tibetan lamas, I have read more than five books by T Lobsang Rampa; at the moment I am reading the Grail message, and the reincarnation and karma that Tibetan lamas talk about is not exactly what the Grail Message talks about.
Ie, some Buddhists and Hindus believe that a humanbeing can reincarnate as an animal. But, to the best of my knowledge, the Grail message teaches that humans can only reincarnate as humans. I can go on and on about the differences.

Finally a thread with a touch me brilliance.
I think though that the quest for the supernatural will forever remain this way, unless of course there is a scientific method to prove it, it remains the thoughts and intuitions of men and will continue to vary.
I am thinking of raising a thread though to try and understand just why African religions are not accorded the same respect and awe that these foreign religions command. What do you think?

Chrisbenogor:

I am thinking of raising a thread though to try and understand just why African religions are not accorded the same respect and awe that these foreign religions command. What do you think?

The answer to this question is obvious as well as being simple and complex at the same time.

put these ingredients together: inferiority complex, Ambition, self-loathing, and superficiality - - - and you will get the soup that african religiousity is nourished on.