dalaman:

The supernatural has no clear or unequivocal definition IMO.

That's true. It all depends on context in the same way that 'natural' or 'nature' cannot be pinned down to an unequivocal definition.

However, many people do not recognize that what is usually swept under the umbrella term 'science' is too ambitious as to make no statement at all. The 'supernatural' is not a singularity term; and due to its unequivocal application, cannot be narrowed to a simplistic 'scientific explanation'. There are already phenomena that scientists have been battling for ages to give such 'scientific explanation' to; but more and more of them are beginning to recognize that there are certain issues which cannot be scientifically explained.

pilgrim.1:

There are already phenomena that scientists have been battling for ages to give such 'scientific explanation' to; but more and more of them are beginning to recognize that there are certain issues which cannot be scientifically explained.

What are the phenomena that scientist have been battling with for ages to give scientific explanations to? And what do you mean that more and more are beginning to recognize that there are certain issues that cannot be scientifically explained? who are they more and more?

What we are doing right now on the internet,in the world wide web,would have been termed supernatural,or downright sorcery, two hundred years ago by scientist and religious leaders alike.
Who would now think that surfing on the net and communicating live with other folks thousands of miles apart is supernatural?It is called EVOLUTION.We continue to evolve.There is no standing still.

pilgrim.1:

However, many people do not recognize that what is usually swept under the umbrella term 'science' is too ambitious as to make no statement at all. The 'supernatural' is not a singularity term; and due to its unequivocal application, cannot be narrowed to a simplistic 'scientific explanation'. There are already phenomena that scientists have been battling for ages to give such 'scientific explanation' to; but more and more of them are beginning to recognize that there are certain issues which cannot be scientifically explained.

jagunlabi:

What we are doing right now on the internet,in the world wide web,would have been termed supernatural,or downright sorcery, two hundred years ago by scientist and religious leaders alike.
Who would now think that surfing on the net and communicating live with other folks thousands of miles apart is supernatural?It is called EVOLUTION.We continue to evolve.There is no standing still.

We've heard that one so many times before - 'two hundred years ago' this and that. Lol, in my opinion, such language cheapens the history of science and scientific knowledge.

Communicating through the telecommunication devices were well underway two hundred years ago and earlier. Examples? Dear jagunlabi, you're quite informed that the fax machine was invented by Alexander Bain in 1843 (c. 165 yrs ago); this was a development on an earlier technology - the telephone. Samuel Thomas von Soemmering constructed his electrochemical telegraph in 1809 (eh. . 200 yrs ago?). So, there is nothing strange about telecommunications developing beyond its earlier stages - for scientists and inventors did not believe that their findings would be stagnant. (sources: here and here).

When people think about natural as distinct from supernatural, we should not try to confuse their distinct paradigms.

You are comparing faxing with internet surfing?We are talking about people communicating with each other live over a vast expanse of space. Around 200 years ago that would be sorcery,supernatural.What about mobile telephone communication?What about TELEVISION?Those rectangular boxes of sorcery that live in our livingrooms?

pilgrim.1:

Communicating through the telecommunication devices were well underway two hundred years ago and earlier. Examples? Dear jagunlabi, you're quite informed that the fax machine was invented by Alexander Bain in 1843 (c. 165 yrs ago); this was a development on an earlier technology - the telephone. Samuel Thomas von Soemmering constructed his electrochemical telegraph in 1809 (eh. . 200 yrs ago?). So, there is nothing strange about telecommunications developing beyond its earlier stages - for scientists and inventors did not believe that their findings would be stagnant. (sources: here and here).

When people think about natural as distinct from supernatural, we should not try to confuse their distinct paradigms.

toneyb:

What are the phenomena that scientist have been battling with for ages to give scientific explanations to? And what do you mean that more and more are beginning to recognize that there are certain issues that cannot be scientifically explained? who are they more and more?

Could I ask you to sample these two for now? Here:

    ●  The Scientific Frontier of The Spirit - Alan Wallace
        [accessed here]

    ●  IS THERE A WORLD OF SPIRIT BEHIND MATTER?
        Dr. Heysinger Finds That Scientists Corroborate Many of the Claims of Spiritism
        [from The New York Times, full article here]

The discipline of QUANTUM MECHANICS/PHYSICS is dealing with that area.You will be amazed at what progress has been made in that field.

pilgrim.1:

Could I ask you to sample these two for now? Here:

     ●  The Scientific Frontier of The Spirit - Alan Wallace
         [accessed here]

     ●  IS THERE A WORLD OF SPIRIT BEHIND MATTER?
         Dr. Heysinger Finds That Scientists Corroborate Many of the Claims of Spiritism
         [from The New York Times, full article here]
   

jagunlabi:

You are comparing faxing with internet surfing?We are talking about people communicating with each other live over a vast expanse of space. Around 200 years ago that would be sorcery,supernatural.What about mobile telephone communication?What about TELEVISION?Those rectangular boxes of sorcery that live in our livingrooms?

Lol, people don't mistake technology for 'supernatural', so this usual '200 years ago' this-and-that should not be recycled as an excuse to cheapen the history of science and technology. Earlier than that, many researchers in their day were seeking to understand the nature of such sciences - and if they were able to communicate 'live and direct' over some telecommunication devices (in what stage of development at the time), they didn't think it 'supernatural' in context of what is understood by that term. Anyways, I know you like to just tease and have fun - so do have more fun.

jagunlabi:

The discipline of QUANTUM MECHANICS/PHYSICS is dealing with that area.You will be amazed at what progress has been made in that field.

I am aware of Quantum Mechanics/Physics and I'm not 'amazed' at the 'progress'. Perhaps you're quite ambitious to use that as an umbrella cover. . . until you actually read the articles.

jagunlabi:

The supernatural is a phenomenon that we humans have no understanding of at the moment.But the minute we have a good understanding of such a phenomenon or event,it becomes either science or technology.
And since our understanding of the world around us is getting broader and broader by the hour,it is only a matter of time before what used to be a supernatural event becomes a mere event with a scientific explanation.

List a few things that people viewed as supernatural 100-200 years ago, that have now been labelled 'science' or 'technology'.Scientific puzzles are just that, the supernatural is another, and I don't think anyone can confuse the two. Scientists are still trying to figure out how the brain works; they want to figure out the whys of of planets with frozen subterreanean oceans,they want to conduct stem cell research, they want to clone extinct species like the Tasmanian tiger, given the laws of physics dolphins should not be able to engage in the aquabatics they perform, but they do, and  scientists don't know why: But not many people confuse scientific puzzles and unknown natural phenomena with the supernatural.

Even thousands of years ago, many people did not. In modern times there are the ignorant and those who are not. It was so in antiquity as well. People tend to think civiliztions get 'smarter' as they progress or something, that 'progress' is as linear as time, when it is no such thing. Every epoch had its scientific breakthroughs and its geniuses, and none is 'greater' or 'better' than the other. Egyptians built pyramids that took centuries for modern scientists to unravel; I think they just did so recently. Thinkers like Aristotle and Plato are still unmatched in modern times for clarity and genius, and all modern science is built on the foundations earlier epochs laid down. You know the difference between scientific puzzles and the supernatural. Most people, down history, have had little trouble telling the difference.     

toneyb=topic=280962.msg4032470#msg4032470 date=1245087372:

What evidence do we have for any of these particular propositions?

You are perfectly right in wanting proof, you are absolutely justified to want evidence for belief. It is only fair; what God would demand something so patently unreasonable as belief in him without proof? Believe in what, thin air? Other people's say-so? No one can ask that of anyone. You will find virtually no one in the Bible who believed in God without any evidence that He existed: If they were not interacting directly with Him they were witnesses to his power, or they were wielding that power on his behalf.
If we have a brain and faculties for reasoning it is meant to be used. You cannot be blamed for using yours, for wanting proof.

The problem is, you want other people to give you this proof.
Let's say a man lives in the desert near an oasis, like his father and his father before him, so the desert is all he knows. Suppose strangers were to visit his village, and tell him there is something called an 'ocean'. They describe it as a body of water bigger than the entire desert. You're not stupid. You're naturally incredulous. Such a thing sounds impossible,becuase you've never seen it. You ask for proof. They can only describe what they have experienced of the ocean, but to you, those are just words, because you don't share their brain and their memories and you don't inhabit their life; so you cannot know what they have seen of the ocean, however hard they describe it to you. So you decide, there is no ocean.It's too fantastic.They have to be making it up.And yet these tales pour in, from people who have experienced the ocean.

Are you justified in not believing, because you haven't seen the ocean?Yes. Does the ocean exist, whether you belive it does or not? YES. Should you disregard the claims of those who have seen it, thousand and thousands of people?Perhaps, but it would be wiser not to.

So what should you do?
Tony, when you say you're sad or happy or hungry,another human being can appreciate what you say, mentally, but can they feel what you feel, can they experience that joy or hunger or sadness with you?NO. You're an individual, and you alone inhabit your life and you alone feel your feelings. All we know is what you say. But if I were to feel hungry or sad, then I would know what you're talking about; the words you've been saying, 'hungry', 'sad', would become real to me too.

What should you do, living in the desert, with people describing an ocean, people you do not share a brain with, and so whose experiences, the proof that you want, cannot be shared?
           
You get up, and you go and look for for youself, Tony. You take a trip, and you point your own eyeballs at that ocean.

You are right in wanting proof.
But you are directing your inquiries at the wrong agency.
It is not up to anyone to prove the existence of God to you.
It is up to you to seek the truth for yourself, and it is up to God to prove his own existence to you. He says He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. I have found this to be true.It is up to you to ask God to prove to you, incontrovertibly, that he exists, and to 'seek' or bother him tirelessly until he does. When he does reveal himself; and you know for a fact he is living, you'll know how unreasonable a request it is when someone scoffingly asks you to prove that he exists.

Mad_Max:

Even thousands of years ago, people did not. In modern times there are the ignorant and those who are not. It was so in antiquity as well. People tend to think civiliztions get 'smarter' as they progress or something, that 'progress' is as linear as time, when it is no such thing. Every epoch had its scientific breakthroughs and its geniuses, and none is 'greater' or 'better' than the other. Egyptians built pyramids that took centuries for modern scientists to unravel; I think they just did so recently. Thinkers like Aristotle and Plato are still unmatched in modern times for clarity and genius, and all modern science is built on the foundations earlier epochs laid down. You know the difference between scientific puzzles and the supernatural. Most people, down history, have had little trouble telling the difference.

Absolutely correct about people thinking that progress is linear. That is a false paradigm at the basis of most modern thought that is shared by both some scientists and some religionists.

I didn't think that way the pyramids were built has been unravelled yet. I thought that was still a mystery. Can you give us any links to look it up?

People have jumped down my throat on this forum for going on about the eternal vs the temporal so I won't go there but I'll only say that it has a lot to do with the supernatural. Nature being closely related to Time.

Pastor AIO:

I didn't think that way the pyramids were built has been unravelled yet. I thought that was still a mystery. Can you give us any links to look it up?

I'm inclined to share your view precisely. However, in looking through a few sources claiming the mystery has been 'solved', it does not seem that they're seeking to answer the basic question of HOW it was built (I may be wrong, though). Sample:

        ● Mystery of the pyramids solved with stars  -  [ABC News in Science]

        ● Great Pyramid Mystery to Be Solved by Hidden Room? -
           [National Geogrpahic News, Nov. 14, 2008]

        ● Mystery of Great Pyramid 'solved' - [BBC News Online]

Online links about pyramids? I read the explanations in a book months ago, or was it a documentary? I think it's a book. It went on about aquaducts and how this swelled and how the cement went this way, and how this and that constricted. I couldn't digest the technical details but I thought, So they've unravelled this thing?Took them long enough. But perhaps it's the author's own conjecture presented as 'fact'. Some silly writers sometimes do that.Look it up online, If they have unravelled it, it'll definitely be there.

"Is there a world of spirit behind matter?"
I'm reading the Isaac Heysinger article. Fascinating.

Mad_Max:

"Is there a world of spirit behind matter?"
I'm reading the Isaac Heysinger article. Fascinating.

You're giving me goose pimples!
Lol, I also thought that was quite fascinating.

I am sorry to dissapoint you,but none of these links provide any evidence that modern man have any clue as to how those pyramids were built.What i saw in those articles are nothing but conjectures on the purpose behind the building of the pyramids.As far as the technology used in construction is concerned,till today,these guys(egyptologists) are still tapping about in the dark.

pilgrim.1:

I'm inclined to share your view precisely. However, in looking through a few sources claiming the mystery has been 'solved', it does not seem that they're seeking to answer the basic question of HOW it was built (I may be wrong, though). Sample:

        ● Mystery of the pyramids solved with stars  -  [ABC News in Science]

        ● Great Pyramid Mystery to Be Solved by Hidden Room? -
           [National Geogrpahic News, Nov. 14, 2008]

        ● Mystery of Great Pyramid 'solved' - [BBC News Online]

And that's disappointing how? The pyramids were an aside, a mere example in a post that argues that progress is more 'cyclical' than linear. That they haven't solved the pyramid puzzle only buttresses the fact that generations past weren't comprised of dummies who couldn't tell the difference between scientific puzzles and the supernatural, and that modern man is not 'smarter' than they merely because he's the most recent in the progression.

Scientists are still unable to determine how life started on earth.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/science/16orig.html?pagewanted=1&em

jagunlabi:

I am sorry to dissapoint you,but none of these links provide any evidence that modern man have any clue as to how those pyramids were built.

Mad_Max:

And that's disappointing how? The pyramids were an aside, a mere example in a post that argues that progress is more 'cyclical' than linear.

Hehe. . Lol, Mad_Max. .     I no fit laugh! But thanks for taking that outa ma mouth!

jagunlabi:

I am sorry to dissapoint you,but none of these links provide any evidence that modern man have any clue as to how those pyramids were built.

@jagunlabi, there was no disappointment there. Actually, I had agreed with Pastor AIO in essence that the question of HOW the pyramids were built remains a mystery. Please read it again:

pilgrim.1:

I'm inclined to share your view precisely. However, in looking through a few sources claiming the mystery has been 'solved', it does not seem that they're seeking to answer the basic question of HOW it was built (I may be wrong, though).

And that's disappointing how? The pyramids were an aside, a mere example in a post that argues that progress is more 'cyclical' than linear. That they haven't solved the pyramid puzzle only buttresses the fact that generations past weren't comprised of dummies who couldn't tell the difference between scientific puzzles and the supernatural, and that  modern man is not 'smarter' than they merely because he's the most recent in the progression.

Scientists are still unable to determine how life started on earth.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/science/16orig.html?pagewanted=1&em


HMMM how true

could it be that when the children of isreal in eygpt as slaves were building the pyramid
i wanted to ask some mysterious question but i cant put it in words but , i hopr i can

esensed:

could it be that when the children of isreal in eygpt as slaves were building the pyramid
i wanted to ask some mysterious question but i cant put it in words but , i hopr i can

Lol, that would be great when you can ask it.

hi pi;grim

sorry the question i intend asking might not be for this thread however when its sorted i might create a thread for it.

esensed:

could it be that when the children of isreal in eygpt as slaves were building the pyramid
i wanted to ask some mysterious question but i cant put it in words but , i hopr i can

The children of israel were never in Egypt as slaves, they did not build any of the pyramids, there is no Egyptian record that has any evidence to show that the jews were ever held captives inside Egypt. The pyramids were built by the Egyptians and there is more than enough evidence to show for it.

esensed:

could it be that when the children of isreal in eygpt as slaves were building the pyramid
i wanted to ask some mysterious question but i cant put it in words but , i hopr i can

lol are you perhaps wondering if God had something to do with the pyramids when the 'children of Israel' were building it, lending a hand somehow, and 'man' cannot now unravel how it was done because of that?

max

something like that, am sensing so

Anything's possible. Afterall it appears the God of the Bible visited an Egyptian pharaoh, Akhenaton, and the encounter was so profound, the king changed his name to reflect that of this 'sun god' who was a being 'brighter than the sun.' Familiar?

"On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. We all fell to the ground, (Acts 26:12-14)(Acts 9)

This pharaoh built a city and dedicated it to his God, and was, naturally, soon at loggerheads with the priests of other gods in Egypt when he declared this God was the only true God. It's possible God might have had a hand in the pyramids, but it's unlikely. Modern men simply haven't been able to figure out how the Egyptians did it, is all. Some of them are saying, in their conceit, if we can't figure it out,then perhaps aliens built it with alien technology lol. Besides, the Egyptians weren' the only ancient civilization with pyramids. The Aztecs, a cruel, intriguing, very smart and scientifically advanced people, had step pyramids too.They knew their astronomy and could predict eclipses,etc.

yes

could it be that the pyramid in eygpt, azetc which modern man can not figure out, was man trying to reach God like the tower of babel? as a result of being around the tower of babel after they were scattered, they went with such "technology" to build the pyramids?

modern man boast that he has so much advancement that he can decipher anything including God yet how the pyramid was built by ancient men, they cant decipher. IF WHAT IS SEEN (PYRAMID MADE BY ANCIENT MEN) HAS NOT BEEN UNDERSTOOD BY MODERN MAN, HOW CAN THE UNSEEN(SUPERNATURAL) BE UNDERSTOOD BY MERE HUMAN UNDERSTANDING?

this remind me of a verse in the bible

Rom 1:19-22
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 [size=13pt]Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,[/size]
KJV


does it not tell us that there is a conspiracy among modern man to rubbish anything God?

more like sun worship, I should think.

They had precise calendars for equinoxes and all that. Think I heard it somewhere.

Well, you know, there's no way to tell what their intentions were; it was so long ago.
The Aztecs are on a different continent entirely, so far away from Egypt there was no way the two cultures could interact, and yet they too were building pyramids. But Aztec pyramids aren't a mystery; it had steps. The pyramids are a puzzle. The ancient Egyptians were simply smarter than our modern scientists is all.

esensed:

IF WHAT IS SEEN (PYRAMID MADE BY ANCIENT MEN) HAS NOT BEEN UNDERSTOOD BY MODERN MAN, HOW CAN THE UNSEEN(SUPERNATURAL) BE UNDERSTOOD BY MERE HUMAN UNDERSTANDING?

I like that!

sherifatou:

more like sun worship, I should think.They had precise calendars for equinoxes and all that. Think I heard it somewhere.

The Aztecs? I think so. For the Egyptians the pyramids were tombs. For Aztecs and their kin, they were temples.

What is all this talk about linear and cyclical, I am awed and astonished!
Seriously are you guys sending these posts with computers of from King Tut's tomb?