edogho:

The True Definition For those that have been defending their pastors opinion on the
issue of tithing over the redemptive sacrifice of Christ
after reading my comment. I want to clarify some things
before asking some very interesting question. Do you know that the purpose of
tithe is not for God to bless you or for supporting God's work but rather, it's an
exercise of the law for
showing that you "REGARD AND FEAR THE LORD YOUR GOD" In Deut 14:23, the Bible clearly says EAT your tithe before the Lord SO THAT YOU
CAN FEAR HIM. In Deut 14:26 it repeated it again saying if you can't carry the cassava and cocoyam, convert it to money and use it to eat rice, drink wine and 'ogogoro' and you can even use it to carry 'ashewo' if your soul lust after one, at
that point, you are covered because it's tithing. In Deut 14: 27 & 29 it clearly says
when your belly is full, you should remember the Levites (not a pastor because they
have no inheritance among you) also the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow because they are really the ones in need. Here are my
questions and I need clear answers.

1.
The Lord clearly
says "Eat before Me so that you can fear Me" why are you not eating your tithe? That's
direct disobedience! Isn't that telling God directly that "I DON'T REGARD OR FEAR
YOU?"

2.
Your excuse is that
you cannot carry yam abi?
fine, there is room to convert it to money but according to
Lev 27:31 "If you want to buy back the LORD's tenth of the
grain or fruit, you must pay its value, plus 20 percent." so that's now 30%. The
interesting thing is that you must still eat everything before the Lord SO THAT YOU
CAN FEAR HIM. That's 30%,
so if you are bringing money, you should be presenting 30% that you must blow once
on whatever your soul desire, Ogogoro included. The
question is "Have you been eating that 30% at once as the Lord instructed in the Bible?" If you haven't been doing that, do you know you've been telling God "I DON'T REGARD OR FEAR
YOU"?

3.
There are four set of
people entitled to the leftover of your tithe eating exercise,
The Levites, Stranger, Widow and Fatherless. Your pastor is obviously not a levite, even Jesus is not one. So if your pastor is not a helpless stranger, widow/widower, or
orphan, why is he the only one screaming the songs of tithe in cash. Why is your
pastor the one raining fake curses and suspended prayers on the topic of tithe when he's not even entitled to it by any or all definition?

4.
Lastly I will like to know, if your pastor had told you that
tithing is just for you to show that you FEAR THE LORD and that no blessing is attached
to it, will you be paying it?
Believe me, tithing is not an avenue to blessings, it is illegal in the body of Christ
and any pastor that comes to preach Jesus to you and still
ask you for tithe is a con-artist from the pit of hell,
there are no better words to describe such a person. The
fact that tithing is popular does not make it right. Anyways, I am expecting your
answers but before you do, remember this. If you want to
give your money to God, do it right, give it to the stranger (I'm obviously a stranger lols)
fatherless and the widow, I can guarantee you that God will receive it and credit your earthly and heavenly account
with interest.

By: Ignition Abayomi Michael
Afelumo

openmine:

i dont understand ur question....r u implying that money was never in existence during the levitical period?

Ur totally wrong sir....tithing was never a God's kingdom principle....principles are based on laid down laws....and i believe u have biblical scriptures to prove where dose laws were stated right? [/quotes]

Principles don't have to be written laws. Offering, tithes , alms ,prayer ,worship , fasting etc are all spiritual principles discovered by revelations . Abel and Cain didn't require a written law to give offerings before God. Its a spiritual principle .

[quote]where was it stated pre-law that the people sud tithe(and please don't bring up Abraham jingle into this cos he never tithed)....sorry sir.....there is no such scripture because you erroneously or deceptively inserted it there....

U said it existed before the law......and i ask in astonishment,are you sir implying that any thing that existed before the law was given was NOT nullified?

Are you implying that circumcision was not nullified since it was pre-law?

If you said tithe was pre-law,why do u justify tithes collection

using the supposed nullified laws of moses to buttress ur reasons for tithing i.e malachi 3:10,numbers 18:10?

Finally where in the new covenant did paul say that tithe was a God's kingdom principle or are u d one that constructed and inserted it there?

It was more than just an order....it was contained in the old covenant....which has been nullified.

..we all know jesus is the high priest based on better promises and an oath from God.....the comparison of the priesthood of jesus and that of Melchizedek is based on the fact that "their priesthood abides continually"..

.but the priesthood of jesus christ is far better than that of other priests before now[b] including that of Melchizedek[/b]

So how does the Melchizedek order or levitical order make you a levite sir?
Please sir try again!

openmine:

i dont understand ur question....r u implying that money was never in existence during the levitical period?



U r totally wrong sir....tithing was never a God's kingdom principle....principles are based on laid down laws....and i believe u have biblical scriptures to prove where dose laws were stated right?

...where was it stated pre-law that the people sud tithe(and please don't bring up Abraham jingle into this cos he never tithed)....sorry sir.....there is no such scripture because you erroneously or deceptively inserted it there....

U said it existed before the law......and i ask in astonishment,are you sir implying that any thing or act or law that existed before the law was given was NOT nullified?

Are you implying that circumcision was not nullified since it was pre-law?

If you said tithe was pre-law,why do u justify tithes collection using the supposed nullified laws of moses to buttress ur reasons for tithing i.e malachi 3:10,numbers 18:10?

Finally where in the new covenant did paul say that tithe was a God's kingdom principle or are u d one that constructed and inserted it there?

please i need ur honest answers to these questions.....


It was more than just an order....it was contained in the old covenant....which has been nullified.....we all know jesus is the high priest based on better promises and an oath from God.....the comparison of the priesthood of jesus and that of Melchizedek is based on the fact that "their priesthood abides continually"..

...but the priesthood of jesus christ is far better than that of other priests before now including that of Melchizedek because its founded on better promises,word of an oath from God and an intercession for all who believe...! (reference:Hebrews 7:15-28)

So how does the Melchizedek order or levitical order make you a levite sir?
Please sir try again!

Joagbaje:


I'm talking about the parrallel. Welfarrare for ministers under the law came from tithes and offerings. And if you say the welfare should come from support . Is it still not in tithes and offerings ? Or where would the money come from ?

Joagbaje:

[s]Principles don't have to be written laws. Offering, tithes , alms ,prayer ,worship , fasting etc are all spiritual principles discovered by revelations . [/s]
Abel and Cain didn't require a written law to give offerings before God. Its a spiritual principle .

Joagbaje:

Of course Abrham was the father of faith . Who's faith we follow. You've answered the question. He tithed

for the benefit of those reading,abraham went to rescue his cousin lot from the hands of kings....he came back victorious with his cousin,and spoils of war and king Melchizedek offered him food and wine...in appreciation,Abraham gave him a tenth of the war spoils and gave the rest of the spoils to the king of sodom....remember Abraham didn't offer [b]his belongings or his income as tithers or tithe collectors wud want people to believe.... [/b]

Joagbaje:

tithe was different . God gave replacement for the others .

Joagbaje:

I won't use the word collection ,the word giving is more appropriate . We give tithe . Nobody is a tithe collector .it belongs to God .

Joagbaje:

The whole bible is inspired of God. And relevant scriptures can be quoted based on the principle they represent . The law is not evil . It has

great kingdom principles

we only need to know what is applicable and what is not. The principles in the law are not really wrong in themselves as long as a man does not seek to be justified by them .

Joagbaje:

Tithes ,offerings ,alms giving , honoring your father , prayer , worship , good works ,etc are all principles in Gods kingdom . Either old or new covenant they remain .

Joagbaje:

We are of abrahamic faith before the old covenant existed .

Joagbaje:

Beautiful , and as long as there is a high priest there must be tithing .

For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices ; thus it is necessary for this priest(Jesus) also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. Hebrews 8:3-6

Joagbaje:

Not so. No priesthood is higher than Melchizedek . Christ is a high priest in his order

And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath ,
21 but this one(JESUS CHRIST) was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath , which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 7: 20 - 28

Joagbaje:

I'm not a Levite. I'm a Nairaland poster like you . And a christian

Eastbay:

Sir,
Just watch the fraudulent pastor who staged a HIV healing and was exposed some time ago to defend the indefensible.

You have asked concrete questions based on scripture.
Watch him tune his reply in line with what he thinks or feels, not what the bible says.

People like him are the reason why I do not want to be attached to any church because these so called men of themselves care only about one thing:themselves.
Hence they will distort the word of God for their own benefit, including payment of tithe.
It is clear that as an New Testament convert, you are not bound by the so called tenets of the law yet they will ask you to pay tithe and add threats on top.

Joagbaje:


If you have any point Prove your point from scripture and if there's none . Just read. No need to hurl insult in the name of Jesus .


2 Timothy 2:24 (KJV Strong's)
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

EMILO2STAY:
it is your pretence that has got me mad, there is no need to be gentle in this matter because you pastors that are supposed to tend the flock are fleecing them instead.

sdkalu:


God help this one in Jesus name.
I wanted to answer you until i saw how you insulted pastors. Let's see how far you will go with this belief. May God open your eyes to the revelation of his word.

Joagbaje:
... I will respond to other post later

Joagbaje:


You don't need to get into a sin because you're mad at my belief. Firstly I have right to what I believe as much as you do. Why I'm I not getti MAD. The fruit of the spirit according to scripture should have hold on you.

Secondly , I will appreciate you address me as a poster and not a pastor. Whatever I am outside Nairaland should not be an issue in a discussion. So that we can have proper focus in a biblical discussion. I see all these personal attacks as mere manipulations. The bible is enough to speak .

Thirdly being a pastor is a hinorable responsibility. As much as many of you here have tried to Rubish that call. A pastor is not a tithe collector . A pastor is rather a tithe giver . Most pastors have their jobs and businesses . They are not in ministry for any gain. Rather the give more than the congregations most times . One of our pastors on CEC was the highest paid black man in chevron in the whole of Africa of west Africa . He wasn't taking any support for pastoring . He gives in millions to Gods work. Until recently he had to go into full time pastoring because of his increased responsibilities . So get your perspective right . If I'm talking about Tithing . It's based on conviction and that opinion should be respected . Without all these manipulations . Let's talk scriptures . If you don't agree with my view . Don't hurl . When I see people coming with personal attack . I stop responding to such person. They are not worth my time .

Joagbaje:


You don't need to get into a sin because you're mad at my belief. Firstly I have right to what I believe as much as you do. Why I'm I not getti MAD. The fruit of the spirit according to scripture should have hold on you.

Secondly , I will appreciate you address me as a poster and not a pastor. Whatever I am outside Nairaland should not be an issue in a discussion. So that we can have proper focus in a biblical discussion. I see all these personal attacks as mere manipulations. The bible is enough to speak .

Thirdly being a pastor is a hinorable responsibility. As much as many of you here have tried to Rubish that call. A pastor is not a tithe collector . A pastor is rather a tithe giver . Most pastors have their jobs and businesses . They are not in ministry for any gain. Rather the give more than the congregations most times . One of our pastors on CEC was the highest paid black man in chevron in the whole of Africa of west Africa . He wasn't taking any support for pastoring . He gives in millions to Gods work. Until recently he had to go into full time pastoring because of his increased responsibilities . So get your perspective right . If I'm talking about Tithing . It's based on conviction and that opinion should be respected . Without all these manipulations . Let's talk scriptures . If you don't agree with my view . Don't hurl . When I see people coming with personal attack . I stop responding to such person. They are not worth my time .

openmine:


Sir its now obvious that you don't seem to have any verse to backup ur "deceptive" claims (please pardon my use of that description cos am astonished by wat you just put up)...hence ur defense holds no strength...

why do u still seek to be paid with the tithe that was part of a nullified law rather than the pre-law tithe which you claim to practice....? Does that make spiritual sense to you?

hence am only seeing support for those who teach the gospel....i don't see tithes and offerings like u claim because these are terms from the law of moses,which both of us have agreed has been nullified? right?

Sir why did u omit the burnt from the offering....u sud have included both....so in other words,since burnt offerings were pre-law like you insinuated for tithes,does that mean burnt offerings are permitted or better still do you carry out burnt offerings to God since according to you,its a pre-law and a spiritual principle? [quote]

Burnt offering was a sin offering which Jesus has fulfilled . Let me ask you .do you believe in giving offering to God?

[quote]I have a question for you sir....was Abraham obligated or instructed by God to offer a tenth of the war spoils to king Melchizedek?

Again i ask u sir....do u carry out burnt offerings or do u carry out circumcision ...cos both are pre-laws just like ur pre-law tithes ...?

Ohh really?
So based on ur OWN scriptures,God replaced the others but not tithes ....Going by ur own thesis,God somehow erroneously left out tithes but gave replacements to the others?

Pls Sir Joagbaje,wud u be kind enuff to get me scriptures that buttress ur wild and outrageous claims?
Until you are able to provide scriptures to that effect,i consider ur claims highly deceptive and manipulative......

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

According to your pastor and mentor,Pastor chris,(hope am not mistaken) in one of his "question and answer series" said..... "tithe is not giving,tithe is a requirement ...you don't give tithes,you pay tithes".......
Going by his admission,tithe is tithe and giving is giving.....you can not give what is required...

I give based on 2 Corinthians 8 and 2 Corinthians 9:7.....which is paul encouraged the Corinthians to practice,calling it the "gift of giving"(2 Corinthians 8:1-12)
This is wat you sud be teaching ur listeners or in the assembly....about the "gift of giving" and giving as "you have decided in ur heart"(2 Corinthians 9:7)
Not a failed entity called tithes that only drags 'fresh' believers away from God.....

Tell me what i haven't heard from you oga Joagbaje.....So now you have now reversed ur earlier stance about the law of moses...i tot you said tithe was pre-law and any other tithe has been nullified along with the laws of moses....
You have suddenly brought it back to life after realizing that ur acclaimed pre-law tithe had no base or foundation to stand on....hence,you simply had to UN-nullify the laws of moses to use as ur base to tithe calling it an eternal principle ....Incredible!!!

Sir what did u just say?
both old and new covenants remain? chisos....
Okay.....please nah i need scriptures from you to back dese preposterous claims....so according to you,the old covenant that has been nullified and set aside still remains?
May God have mercy on you sir for manipulating his very words just for u to justify tithes ...haaaaaaaaaaaa

Abraham's faith as sud be practiced by believers is not hinged on his meeting and sharing of the war spoils with king Melchizedek and the king of sodom ....
its was based on Abraham's unalloyed conviction of God even when God had not yet fulfilled what was promised to him...he still stood firm and staggered not....thats the kind of faith God requires from believers....it wasnt based on his lifestyle or his acts which u are forcefully holding unto just defend tithes....

I don't need to argue with you about which is higher....i will allow scriptures to lecture u....cos it was based on an oath that the jesus christ was made a high priest

If these scriptures does not open ur eyes about which priesthood is higher,nothing else will.....

Then stop equating or referring to yourself as a levite (parallel or trapezium )

Joagbaje:

You're not pardoned . It's still an insult . Control yourself. And exercise fruit. Just tell me you don't agree where you don't agree.

Joagbaje:

I never told you I recieve such . So stop getting personal with me. Focus on the topic with your bible .

Joagbaje:

Principles are forever. Either they exist in the law ,pre law or after the law.

Joagbaje:

Most probably ,what does it matter. Tithing is a principle discovered by revelation . Just as any sacred discovery. If you do it , you gain the benefit ,if you don't you miss the benefit. Is prayer an obligation ? Is fasting an obligation ?

Joagbaje:

Principles are constant . They may be seen in the law or before the law. They a spiritual secrets revealed through revelations. So some principles in the law are still applicable..

Joagbaje:

So some principles in the law are still applicable..

Joagbaje:

Not everything in the law is wrong . Is the law evil ? There are principles not the law which are kingdom principles . They are not done away even though the law is done away because they are spiritual principle.

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19

Joagbaje:

Have you wondered why Paul quote from Old Testament? For example : honor thy father . Why would he quote law for people who are not under the law

Because it's a principle . To honor to care and to respect parents. Isaac had to make his son cook for him do that he could bless him. . Moses gave a law on honoring parents . The Jews nullified it Jesus came along and addressed it. And he rebuked them for hindering people from taking care of parents

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to ALL, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become ALL things to all PEOPLE, that by ALL MEANS I might SAVE SOME. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 19-23)

Joagbaje:

You have a choice . Every principle carry grace and blessing when applied . If you pray you get the benefit , if you fast ,give alms ,tithe you get the benefit and the grace such Carry . If you don't do it you miss the benefit and grace it carries.

Joagbaje:

It's your opinion but it can't be imposed on others .

Joagbaje:

But you must know that there are different kinds of giving in Gods kingdom .
Giving of Offering Old covenant
Giving of tithe, Old covenant
Giving of Alms Old covenant
Giving to parents (honor) Old covenant
Giving to your prophet or MOG Old covenant
Giving for projects in Gods house . MAN-MADE

Joagbaje:

interestingly ,The scripture you quoted in 2corinthians only dealt with just one of these giving but We must do all these giving . It's not a standard to cover every giving . It was a project before the church they were raising money for relief . It's just an aspect of giving . That's not offering ,that's not tithe . That's not to cover for giving to the pastor or alms to the poor etc .One giving does not nulify the other . One giving does not cover for the others

Joagbaje:
When we do things contained in the law , it's because they are kingdom principles not because the law say so.it could have been revealed in the law though . If I don't commit murder it's because it's a principle not because the law say so.

Joagbaje:

Firstly I forgive your insults . It's your level of understanding ... For the scriptures I quoted one earlier . And if you study carefully you will see Paul in several occasion quoting from the law. Isn't it funny that a man who seem to condemn the deed of the law is quoting the law . And the funniest part was that he quoted it even to Gentiles who were never under the law.

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to ALL, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become ALL things to all PEOPLE, that by ALL MEANS I might SAVE SOME. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 19-23)

Joagbaje:

What of Jacob tithing? was it war spoil? Why tenth why not 5% only God knows the mystery behind it !

Joagbaje:

That will be highly appreciated if you allow scripture to speak for itself .

Joagbaje:

Don't be too full of your opinion. And make post with humility , you may just be wrong . So have that at the back of your mind .I'm a tither and I've done this from child . With strong conviction .

Joagbaje:

Where did I equate myself to Levites . Did they have what I have in christ?

Joagbaje:

Mark 7:11
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

Why . It's a spiritual principle .thats why You find paul addressing same issue .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Long life doesn't come by prayer for it . There a principle . Honor your parents. Either old or New Testament . It's a kingdom principle

openmine:

You were the one who quoted 1 Corinthians 9: 13-14 to buttress ur collection of tithes,

after informing you that dose "tithes" were part of a nullified law which u agreed,
you den deceptively decided to go on a memory lane saying it was a pre-law tithe ......after explaining to you that you can not hold on to a pre-law tithe and still want to use the practices of a nullified law of moses,You now ask that am being personal with you?
You see that's the issue i have with you and ur likes,Instead of responding to the question,you start moving

why do u still seek to be paid with the tithe that was part of . . .

Really? So you are saying that the lord God who said that the law was obsolete and nullified didn't know what he was saying or doing right?
Since you are loosely using that word principles,please answer the following questions...
Do you carry out the procedures of the burnt offering as prescribed in the Law?
Have you been physically circumcised?
Do you Offer only unblemished animals?
Do you carry out the procedures of the guilt and sin offerings?
Do you bring meal offerings as prescribed in the Law of Moses?
Do you burn incense every day?
Do you bring two additional lambs as burnt offerings on the Sabbath?
Do you eat the Passover lamb with unleavened bread and bitter herbs on the night of the 14th of Nisan? I hope you know these are "principles" contained in the laws of Moses.....so do you observe dese principles?
If your answers to this questions are negative,then your conviction or practice of tithes,in my opinion,is WRONG!

Prayers and fasting are not only scriptural,its a way of the christian life....you can not communicate with the father without prayers...its part of our lifestyle as believers...or are you equating tithes with prayers and fasting??

Sir,let me answer you using the very words of Hebrew 7,......
If the law was not evil ,why was it labelled obsolete ?
If the law was not wrong ,why was it declared weak and useless according to Hebrews 7:18?
If some of the laws were perfect like u r alluding,why did God replace it with another law?

openmine:

Notice that i omitted alms,tithe and offerings.....that's because such gestures were part of the nullified laws of moses....you cannot give what is required or what is imposed on you.....that's slavery and never based on love which replaced the laws of moses Romans 13:8-10

U sud know that wen Paul spoke to a particular audience in the scriptures,he had to use the laws of Moses as a guide.....in fact,he actually used the laws of Moses to preach Christ to his audience ....(Ref:Acts 28:23)
Paul knew that particular audience were still neck-deep into the laws of Moses....so directly teaching them the gospel of Christ wud have made no sense to them due to their level of understanding....
Paul did everything to ensure that the gospel of Christ was taught whether by the laws of Moses or any other means necessary...
Please Read....

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

i hope u now understand why Paul kept using the laws of Moses...Its was for the sake of the gospel to be preached....So wen next you come across a scripture where he used the laws of Moses,know that it was for the sake of the gospel and not becos he believed in the law !!!

Genuine giving or generosity as practiced by the early believers were done for EVERYONE and out of LOVE (Ref: Acts 4: 32 - 37)
Now tell me if the one practiced by the early believers did not make sense to you?
But that's a choice for you....and you are free to do urs based on ur supposed revelations or principle that have no scripture inclinations !!
If your giving is not based on 2 Corinthians 9:7,then am afraid you don't really understand what it means to be generous because generosity covers ALL AND SUNDRY
This is a christ-like kind of giving which is genuine,love-based and self-less!
And this was the same kind of giving that the early believers practiced,same giving that the believers in Macedonia practiced,same giving that paul the apostle admonished the Corinthians to emulate from the Macedonians....same giving that was explicitly written in 2 corinthians 9:7.

Please tell me,do you need a law for you to give to the poor?
do you need a principle for you to give for a project in church?
Do you need a law to offer support for the minister or pastor of the assembly you attend?
If you,as a believer,who has the love of Christ in you,wud u need a principle or law to compel or subject you to give willingly as you have decided in your heart?

Paul knew that particular audience were still neck-deep into the laws of Moses....so directly teaching them the gospel of Christ wud have made no sense to them....

Joagbaje:

Stop addressing as such . I'm a tither not collector.

Joagbaje:

Kindly read the entire thread. From the opening post . My foundation had been abrahamic faith . But if you ask me question under the law I will answer you . That doesn't mean I practice law. It's just a bible discussion. Secondly the law is not evil . There are content in the law that are based on spiritual principles . Paul said the law was good . It's wrong use that is not right .

Joagbaje:

Romans 7:12 (TLB)
But still, you see, the law itself was wholly right and good.

Joagbaje:

Did I ever tell you I get paid by tithe? Stop these silly remarks . If you can't focus on the bible and topic I may stop responding to you.

Joagbaje:

Are you deliberately going round or pretending not to understand my point? Ok let me give a closer illustration. Nigeria had series of. constitutions. Clifford constitution,Macpherzon and Littleton constitution right ? Now we have new constitution . Under the former constitution murder was A crime ,stealing was a crime . But the new constitution made changes as regards rights ,slave trade but murder and stealing still remain a crime even though there's change of law because based on universal principle they will always be wrong. The fact that there a new constitution does not change the opinion against murder and secondly if we don't commit murder it's not because Macpherzon constitution said so it's because it's universally wrong . As much as we don't live by it . Doesn't make all its content wrong . So don't ask me about incense burning , wave offering or heave offering . I am not a law advocate .what christ has fulfilled is done away such as . Blood sacrifice etc

Joagbaje:

Precisely these are all spiritual principles . Tithes ,offering , alms , honor for parents ,right living etc they all have their benefit . Principles cut across dispensations. They are constant . I ask you a question once . Do you give offering ?

Joagbaje:

Where' did it say the law was evil? Kindly quote

Romans 7:12-14
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It's wrong use of the law that is wrong. As much as certain truths of Gods kingdom are revealed there . Seeking justification by the works of the law is what is condemned . The law can't make one perfect

openmine:

If it was not evil like you said,why was it labelled weak and useless by God?
Do you know better than God?

If the law was good like you are alluding

to,why are you not practicing them?

The same Paul said in Romans 10:4, "that Christ is the end of the law to those who believe".....

Ephesians 2:14-15
"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,
that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace"

Paul was speaking to an audience that had not fully under stood the gospel of Jesus based on grace!
Hence he attempted interchanging both the law of Christ and the obviously nullified law of Moses just for the sake of the gospel !
But that does not in any way prove he was in support of the laws of Moses....

Now who is the one getting emotional and personal now?
Yes you did say so wen u first referred ur self as a levite of our time using 1 Corinthians 9:13-14.....
I always knew u wud deny ur very own words.....even wen it was obvious that u said so....
i will keep asking you this question until i get an answer from you....

james 2:10....if you keep the entire laws of Moses but stumble on one,you are as guilty of breaking all of it....
In other words,All the laws of Moses are important and none is higher or more relevant than the other....

As it regards ur question whether i give offerings,
I don't because offering is an obsolete pattern of giving....


The new pattern is based on generosity....which covers all and sundry
have u studied how the early Christians gave??

[quote]Why did Paul vehemently condemn its practices in Galatians?
Now why was he seeking to justify the same law he condemned before a roman audience?
Was it becos of the romans level of understanding?!!

Joagbaje:


The law was a guide . Instructions in law are not slavery . What of the instructions paul gave . Will you say the instructions paul gave to give money was slavery?
The instruction not to lie was slavery?
The instruction not to defraud ,steal etc are slavery? Why didn't he leave every man to their conscience . And the love of God shed abroad ? I will appreciate your response.

Joagbaje:

Can I ask you a question? Are you aware that paul was a minister to the Gentiles? Are you aware that the Ephesians were not Jews? So don't say paul was dealing with those who are neck deep in the law. Look at this scripture again .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Joagbaje:

Why on earth will an apostle of the grace of God be quoting the law to a people who were never under the law. Because there are principles of God kindgom revealed there.

Joagbaje:

You're explanation is very weak here pls
There's no new way of giving . People have always been giving by love for God.

Exodus 25:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
Paul was only quoting what was already revealed in the Old Testament . A principle . I just hope my point are getting clearer to you .even if you don't agree but understand my perspective first .

Joagbaje:

Why is paul giving instruction to the churches? What happen to "christ in you"

Joagbaje:

These were Gentiles churches not even proselytes. The law is a guide of right and wrong . But remember that my conviction on tithing is not based on the law. I only got into law issue because you asked questions of the law.

Joagbaje:


But you must know that there are different kinds of giving in Gods kingdom .
Giving of Offering
Giving of tithe,
Giving of Alms
Giving to parents (honor)
Giving to your prophet or MOG
Giving for projects in Gods house .

The Giving That Stands You Out – Thursday April 7, 2011 – Pastor Chris

And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, Having land sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet (Acts 4:36-37).

It’s impossible for a Christian who only gives his tithes and offerings to feel like an accomplished giver, but the Bible lets us know these aren’t enough. Your tithes for example belong to God, and He expects you to give them to Him anyway. The man who does otherwise is a robber: “Will a man rob God: Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings” (Malachi 3:8 ).

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. [size=14pt]Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift.[/size] Your offering on the other hand isnt just a donation made to the Church, but a sacrifice offered to a divine being. God actually demanded for it in Exodus 23:15: “…None shall appear before Me empty-handed” (AMP).

So, beyond your tithes and giving your offerings, which are compulsory for every believer, you have to go the extra mile by getting financially involved in the spread of the Gospel. This type of giving is special because it isn’t a compulsion, but is done out of your love and commitment to the Gospel. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (AMP) says, “Let each one [give] as he has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion, for God loves (He takes pleasure in, prizes above other things, and is unwilling to abandon or to do without) a cheerful (joyous, “prompt to do it”) giver [whose heart is in his giving]. This is the giving that stands you out.”

Remember it’s in your interest and in your favour when you give to the Lord, for He has promised great returns and mighty harvest of blessings for the giver. So be sure to be counted among those who give financially towards the things of God. In our Ministry, we have several platforms through which we reach millions of souls around the world every day with the Gospel. Locate such opportunities and participate big-time. That’s how to get relevant in the Kingdom and make your life count.

Prayer
Dear Father, thank you for the available opportunities I have to give towards the work of the Kingdom today, realizing that they’ve been put in place for me to make my relevance and impact in world evangelism felt through my giving. Thank you Lord, for continuously increasing my capacity to give, in Jesus’ Name. Amen,

Further Study
Luke 8:2-3
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Daily Scripture Reading
1 Year Bible Luke 11:14-36
Reading plan Judges 3-4

2 Year Bible Matthew 27:55-66
Reading Plan Leviticus 7

Rhapsody of Realities Pastor Chris Oyakhilome

Candour:
.

Joagbaje says you give tithe as voluntary but his most holy ROR by his daddy says actually you PAY tithe and its a MUST otherwise you're a robber.

Jo can't change. Not until oyaks repents from the fraud of tithe demands.

Joagbaje:

Kindly quote where it says the law was useless thanks

Joagbaje:

At least I showed you the scripture where paul say so . Do you know better than paul ? I also asked you to show where it says the law is evil . I'm waiting for your response .

Acts 28:23
Paul and the Jews chose a day for a meeting. On that day many more of these Jews met with Paul at his house. He spoke to them all day long, explaining God’s kingdom to them. He used the Law of Moses and the writings of the prophets to persuade them to believe in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to ALL, that I might win more of them.

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.


To those under the law I became as one under the law ( though not being myself under the law ) that I might win those under the law.


To those outside the law I became as one outside the law ( not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ ) that I might win those outside the law.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.

I have become ALL things to all PEOPLE, that by ALL MEANS I might SAVE SOME.

I do it all for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 19-23)

Joagbaje:

The aspect of the law fulfilled by christ can not be undone. But tithing has no fulfillment except that christ is now the one who recieve our tune in the order of Melchizedek

Joagbaje:

I'm seeing some dishonesty here . Let me just take it as a Mistake for now. I already told you the only problem with the law is that it lacks the power of justification. Now you're quoting a scripture which says excactly that but you cut away that part . What are you really trying to achieve ?

Joagbaje:

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.same paul the apostle said
Christ is the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOSNESS . But you tried to make the scripture say otherwise . See I don't waste my time with dishonest people.but let me still give you benefit of doubt .

Joagbaje:

The message is very clear . Justification ,righteousness ( peace with God ) cannot come by the law .

Joagbaje:

Come on now how does this theory of yours explain this scripture . .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promisewink
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

What gospel will paul be preaching by using a condemned law? It doesn't add up try again.

If we go by this theory of yours which appears to be double standard Then why are you getting mad at the quoting Malachi to support tithe ?

Joagbaje:

Can you kindly quote where I refereed to myself as a Levite. Thanks and if you cannot . Kindly stop harassing me.

Joagbaje:

I still don't know why you go in this circles . I tried to make you understand my point. If I do what is contained in the law . I'm not not doing it because the law say so . I do it because it's a principle inGods kingdom . But the principles of God existed before the law came . So the coming and passing of the law doesn't change constant principles

annunaki2:


Even if oyaks repents from the tithes scam, I doubt very much that joagbaje will repent from this very lucrative scam.

Candour:



@openmine, Compare the bold above with what joagbaje and his oga teach their flocks in their most important literature after the bible(for some of them, you could argue that ROR is more important than the bible)




Joagbaje says you give tithe as voluntary but his most holy ROR by his daddy says actually you PAY tithe and its a MUST otherwise you're a robber.

Jo can't change. Not until oyaks repents from the fraud of tithe demands.

openmine:


Oga Joagbaje and tithes are liken to bread and butter....they can never be separated...
Oga candour how far nah...longest time....

annunaki2:


Even if oyaks repents from the tithes scam, I doubt very much that joagbaje will repent from this very lucrative scam.

Candour:



@openmine, Compare the bold above with what joagbaje and his oga teach their flocks in their most important literature after the bible(for some of them, you could argue that ROR is more important than the bible)

Joagbaje says you give tithe as voluntary but his most holy ROR by his daddy says actually you PAY tithe and its a MUST otherwise you're a robber.

Jo can't change. Not until oyaks repents from the fraud of tithe demands.

openmine:


With ALL pleasure.....

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness Hebrews 7:18 ESV

So the previous command is annulled because it was weak and unprofitable Hebrews 7:18 (Holman christian standard bible)


For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. Hebrews 7:18 King James version

18 The old rule is now ended because it was weak and worthless. Hebrews 7:18 ERV

Do you want more translations?
Please let me know....
Surprisingly,Its right there in your bible and i have quoted this scripture more than 10 times...on different posts....
Are you implying that you don't follow up my scripture quotes?




And i provided you with a corresponding rebuttal scripture to counter that....
And it was just to prove that Paul was intentionally observing the law of Moses to win souls in rome....



The Highlighted verse of Acts corresponds to an earlier scripture where Paul highlighted his intents for the sake of the gospel

Hear him;


You sud know that just a scripture cannot stand on their own....You need a corresponding scripture to interpret the former...

Now you asked a question if i knew better than Paul.....Well...At least you can see from the highlighted scriptures that he knew what he was doing...Unfortunately,You were carried away by his support for the law of moses without considering that he was doing so to persuade the Romans about the gospel of christ and not because he Supported an expired,weak and useless law...Paul knew better...do you??




The fulfillment of the law by christ implies that you no longer need to be under the supervision of the law....
Really?
Who told you tithe was no fulfilled?
was tithing not part of the law of Moses?
I have quoted scriptures to either convince or show you that Christ priesthood does not receive tithes or gifts or make sacrifices.....
I have also shown u using scriptures on why the priesthood of Christ is far superior than that of Melchizedek....
But unfortunately you ignored them....using Melchizedek as ur standard...
Tell me did Melchizedek offer himself as an atoning sacrifice for all men?
Did Melchizedek die for ur sins?
Was there a sworn oath on king Melchizedek priesthood like that of Christ?
I know why you keep insisting on Melchizedek.....just to substantiate ur weak tithe claims??
Don't you worry...Many believers are now finding out the truth about the obvious deception behind tithe doctrine...And so many souls will be delivered by this apparent slavery perpetuated by respected ministers of the Gospel....The truth never hides!!!




Dishonesty?
Please be specific and highlight where you don't comprehend.....So that i can make it clearer for you.....
The law lacks justification because its no longer relevant....The finished work on the cross ensured that it stayed that way...
Its duty or intents or relevance ended the day Christ was revealed.....
Trying to UN-nullify an ousted law just so that you can justify ur tithe beliefs only shows that you are the dishonest one....



The only dishonest and deceptive one is you....

Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him is made right with God. Romans 10:4 ERV

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for every one who believes Romans 10:4 NIV

I don't know a clearer and better illustration that Romans 10:4...
So where is the dishonesty coming from?
If you want me to explain the scripture for you to comprehend...no wahala...just ask....and i will explain with corresponding scriptures....afterall,scriptures mast match scriptures....!!!



Well Your statements and beliefs from ur earlier posts betray wat u just put up....Or are you trying to say you don't understand wat it means to be justified..?





This is not my theory but based on the intelligence of Paul....
I even went as far as showing you scriptures and corresponding scriptures to buttress Paul's intents which was for the sake of the gospel...
You obviously ignored those scriptures and now you call it my own theory ?
Hilarious
I have shown you with scriptures why Paul used the condemned laws...
But you intentionally chose to ignore them sighting the honoring of ur parents scriptures...
If you really want to learn or find out why Paul used a condemned law to teach the gospel,
Then study Acts 28 and 1 Corinthians 9:19 - 23
And if possible humbly study the entire book of Acts....to understand what Paul did what he had to do!
As for Malachi 3:10,Please don't go there cos you yourself said ur tithe is pre-law ...."abi u wan take am join threaten ur congregation?"



Ohh very easy....go back to your first post on this thread and start looking...you will find it out...but when you do please don't take it off ohhh
I cant do that for you....its ur post not mine
As per harassing you....I did not Ohh ...am telling you wat u explicitly displayed....




You were obviously the one moving in circles non-stop all along and dats because you know you have been cornered....
Your obvious statements(previous and present) proves my point that your pre-law tithes has little or no bearing....without Malachi 3:8 - 10
U keep mentioning principles and kingdom principles...don't these so called principles have a scripture statement or is it part of ur imagination?
Okay lets say you were preaching to an individual and he inquires about a scripture to substantiate ur pre-law tithe...what will be ur answer?
You will start explaining why the kingdom principles cant be found in the scriptures or you will eventually run to Mr Malachi....?

Joagbaje:


If I have time I may look at whatever you wrote if there's need worth responding to .

Joagbaje:



If you want to talk to opaks talk to opaks if you want to talk to jo talk to jo. As long as you're willing to dwell on scripture no problem. But if you want to do agbero style of debate count me out. You can eat your tithe