Joagbaje:


If I have time I may look at whatever you wrote if there's need worth responding to .

Well...Take ALL the time you need....My statements are worth responding!!!

Candour:


With all the discussions you and I have taken part in in time past, you should know you're the last person I'll waste time with on the issue of commercialisation of Christianity or fraudulent twisting of Scripture to fleece folks of their money in the name of tithe.

I'm only letting openmine know the inconsistencies in the tithe doctrine of your and your daddy. Openmine is obviously just encountering you so you're free to keep up the charade.

Meanwhile, have you paid sirjohn the 500k you vowed before all of us to pay?

uncle Joe go and pay your gbese oh

Candour:

Meanwhile, have you paid sirjohn the 500k you vowed before all of us to pay?

do you honestly think the charlatan would honor his word?

don't you see him flip-flopping like a fresh pair of slippers over the simple questions asked of him about tithing?

don't you think this so-called pastor is so devoid of any honor as to fulfill his word, given how the whole incident played out?

Please don't hold your breath.
the so-called pastor laid low till the tide went down and the matter simmered.
Suddenly he has found his voice and he wants us to act like nothing happened.

We are not deceived.

Candour:


With all the discussions you and I have taken part in in time past, you should know you're the last person I'll waste time with on the issue of commercialisation of Christianity or fraudulent twisting of Scripture to fleece folks of their money in the name of tithe.

I'm only letting openmine know the inconsistencies in the tithe doctrine of your and your daddy. Openmine is obviously just encountering you so you're free to keep up the charade.

Meanwhile, have you paid sirjohn the 500k you vowed before all of us to pay?

I thought he had paid the guy.....

EMILO2STAY:
. Ohh!! So now pastors are tithe givers instead of collectors,

Oh sure. Christ is our high priest to whom we pay our tithes. Before a man can be Given a pastoral responsibility he must have been a faithful tither. And he must have a good job from where he puts money into the work. Some pastor use their business income to pay for venues until the church grows to be able to handle it from church purse .

but you cite scriptures to support the collection of tithes by pastors such as 1 corinth 9:13-14

I cited scriptures to answer a post. I was dealing with parralle.

which is not even talking about tithe

Ministers in the terbernacle recieve through what comes in from tithes and offering . That passage was clear enough. Same goes for New Testament ministers . By principle the provision is their. They may receive from what comes in if there need be. But most pastors don't need it because in most churches ecxept General overseer . Pastors have their jobs and businesses . Some are bankers ,oil workers .business men ,lecturers etc. they pay their tithes like every other person. It's bloggers like you guys that give different ideas but it doesn't change the truth.

You see I mavel when you say we should talk scriptures because you seem blind to it but good in twisting it,[/quote]

You don't need to be rude . Rather ask question for clarification. It's just bible discussion you don't need to sin because of me

I have seen that you have a stone for a heart choosing to fleece your congregation

They will rather laugh at your ignorance

You are the same christ embassy pastor that was busted right on this forum and exposed for claiming to have healed a man with H.I.V AIDS. I am sorry for the people you pastor. Continue defending your business interest on nairaland when ever the topic appears... Cotinue in your stone hearted nature your end is near.

But that's your lie. Sir john will not say that. I'm anointed of God . Healinggs are wrought through me. I can send video clips upon video clips . I don't need to stage any miracle for christ. His name is powerful enough.

Joagbaje:


But that's your lie. Sir john will not say that. I'm anointed of God . Healinggs are wrought through me. I can send video clips upon video clips . I don't need to stage any miracle for christ. His name is powerful enough.

You are not only a shameless barefaced liar but a monumental disgrace to the christian community. I can't believe you have the audacity to write what you wrote here after it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt that your so called miracle was fake and you even admitted it your folly. That apart you also demonstrated your lack of integrity by refusing to live up to your word and pay Sir John the 500k you promised after bragging on this forum. You really should be hanging your head in shame instead of coming back to this forum disgrace yourself and rubbish the tiny little reputation you have left.

annunaki2:


You are not only a shameless barefaced liar but a monumental disgrace to the christian community. I can't believe you have the audacity to write what you wrote here after it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt that your so called miracle was fake and you even admitted it your folly. That apart you also demonstrated your lack of integrity by refusing to live up to your word and pay Sir John the 500k you promised after bragging on this forum. You really should be hanging your head in shame instead of coming back to this forum disgrace yourself and rubbish the tiny little reputation you have left.

I'm a man of integrity and everything was transparent , a guy comes to your church and testify he was healed . Will you blame preacher for that? Secondly he was invited for interviews he couldn't show up, effort was made to get his number through his pastor , he was reached on Facebook and on whatsapp because the video that support his testimony couldn't be found the only one that looks like it was sent to him first as a screen shot on Facebook to confirm if he was the one being prayed for . He wasn't sure . Same was sent to his pastor . Later a video clip was sent to him on whatsapp . He finally said he watched the clip and that was him .
Only for us to discover that he didn't watched the clip, and I asked for his medical test result . I spent over a hundred thousand to send him from state to state to look for the doctors who had tested him before whom he claimed got Tranfered . We had to get one of his records from the hospital through his pastor. Why would I go through all these if I have something to hide . If someone have to stage a miracle is there no better way? But the name of christ is enough for me . No need of miracle staging . I have documented video testimony . If I have the time I will upload them . I finallly asked his pastor to take him for fresh test . Until we didn't hear from him again . If he got healed or not. But the only thing his pastor concluded was that maybe he came to give that testimony . Just to get at the Fiancee who left him because he was tested Hiv positive. Because the church does medical and pregnancy test before marriage

openmine:


Yes the law was a guide to lead us to a superior law....the law of christ
The law then WAS our guide,our school master,until chrst was revealed...Now that christ has been revealed and faith has been established,we are no longer under the dictates or supervisions of the law(Galatians 3:23-25)....and thats because of the law of christ which is grace based...

I agree

A little illustration will be all u need to understand this transition....
Lets say that am travelling to Ekiti state from bayelsa state...the bus stops me at ondo state,and i get into another bus heading to Ekiti state...
The bus that conveyed me from bayelsa to ondo state has completed its duty ....while i take a bus heading to ekiti from ondo state....which is my destination!

There are 2 things I will want you to understand. There's different between the content of the law and obedience to the law. You kept trying to give impression as though I'm advocating obedience to the law. Let me take it that you're doing it innocently . I've told you my stand on the law over and over and over . And it's sad each time you're making a case concerning law round and round. We are no longer under bondage to the law . But at the same time that doesn't condemn the content of the law. Because Many of Gods principles are contained in the law. Such as honoring your parents. Will you commit murder ? Will you dishonor parents Because the law is no longer a master no. Because despite the fact that these content are in the law . The are not wrong in themselves because they reveal Gods principles. Helping the poor ,keeping away from idol Etc. These are revelation of Gods mind. We do it because they are kingdom principle . The law reveals Gods mind ,standard of judgement,fairness ,love Etc. But because the people were not regenerated yet they lack the ability to obey the law and secondly they couldn't attain perfection or righteousness by it. Because the best man among them still has unrighteousness as nature . The law is the law of God .

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You are under a new covenant presided by a high priest Jesus christ...hence you are to follow instructions based on the laws of christ and not the obsolete

The law still gave the standard of righteness and wrong. Without the law you would not have known wrong or sin. The law revealed sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.[/quote]

Paul didnt only teach the gentiles,he also taught the romans and jews.....

[color=red]2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

He was apostles to the Gentiles . But that's not our point now . Let's not be distracted.

The question is why would paul used an obsolete law to teach a new people. It's simple it's the law of God!

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good

....if you studied the book of Acts very well,you wud have observed tha paul even went to countries where judaism was a norm...he even went as far as behaving like them....he even burnt insense and partook in burnt offering in order for him to use the very abolished laws of moses to preach about the gospel of christ....

That's different . He sent himself ,he had to use fleshly way to win them which can never work. Even though That should have even made more sense to show identification with the Jews by compromising his faith. But what we are dealing with was Paul using the law to teach Gods principle to Gentiles . Let's humble ourselves . It's because the principles are based on truth. Kingdom principles . Law or no law . It should have been a crime to use what was evil to illustrate good

He knew he was a believer of the gospel and not subjected to the laws of moses...yet he used the laws of moses(judaism) as means to reach out and convince them about the gospel of the cross....

We can liken paul to a female believer who temporarily converted to a prostitute just so that she cud convince dose indulging in such practices to stop by teaching them the gospel of christ

We don't need o former night club stripper to continue to strip so as to lure men to christ.

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.

That would have been excellent if he was dealing with Jews. But now he became a Jew to the Gentiles!

I wasn't expecting a compliment or any thing different from an unrepentant tither....

It's takes humility to admit wrong. I just showed you where paul got the principle from because you never knew that the love of God was not a New Testament revelation . I wish you could study the old without biase

When giving is forced or imposed on a person...it seizes to be giving....

So when God asked the people to come with offering , that is imposition right? We are talking about God. Yet Paul asked the churches to lay money aside weekly as relief .and that is love . What's the difference ?

For each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give.... NOT RELUCTANTLY OR UNDER COMPULSION ... for God loves a GENEROUS GIVER

And God told moses only to collect from those who give it willingly . Is that not the same thing? They only collected from those who gave willingly Just as Gideon was asked to send back those who were not willing to follow him. He accepted those who came . God has never taken from man his will power. You have the right to obey or disobey God.

Very simply....they were still baby christians.....wud you feed a new born child with akpu or garri?
According to 2 peters 1:2;
Grace and peace be mulltiplied to you in abundance through ur knowledge of God and of jesus our lord

Really? Can I ask you a honest question? What bible did they have in the early church? If you carefully search . It's the law and the prophets.

When paul told Timothy to study ,. What scriptures ? THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS .

In Pauls personal study why he was asking for books and parchment to read. What was it LAW AND PROPHETS. let's not become holier than God . All scriptures are given by God inspiration . They are holy scriptures .

....
Now since you have maintained a little bit of consistency on ur pre-law tithe,I have questions to challenge ur pre-law tithe conviction...
On wat covenant does your pre-law tithe base it foundation on?

Tithing existed before the law. As every other spiritual principle . Like prayer , sacrifice , fasting offerings Etc . The fact that the law talks about them does not make the law the originator. The law is only for references . And the fact that the law was done away doesn't take away kingdom principles . There no place God or christ ever spoke against tithing

Since you claim ur tithe was based on Abraham's apparent gesture towards king Melchizedek.wat corresponding scripture on ur pre-law tithes (aside Genesis 14:18-21) can you use to substantiate ur tithe beliefs?

If according to you,Abraham "tithed",was he under any "instruction" from God to offer king Melchizedek the spoils of war?[/quote]

He is a prophet and he has Gods revelations . The principle was revealed to him.

Finally....lets say you tithe using ur supposed Abraham tithe as a guide...After offering the priest ur tenth,will you give ur king or president the remaining 90?

Let me tell you something . Tithing is the least of our givings. I may sound boastful I would have mentioned some things . My givings far exceed my tithing . Personal giving. And also giving for my company and business corporately. People give cars lands houses which far exceed their tithes as they were inspired .

@Joagbaje ....was slightly busy........let me respond to them

Joagbaje:


I agree

Am glad you did cos i wud have used that to question the foundation of ur belief system!

Joagbaje:

There are 2 things I will want you to understand. There's different between the content of the law and obedience to the law. You kept trying to give impression as though I'm advocating obedience to the law. Let me take it that you're doing it innocently . I've told you my stand on the law over and over and over . And it's sad each time you're making a case concerning law round and round. We are no longer under bondage to the law . But at the same time that doesn't condemn the content of the law. Because Many of Gods principles are contained in the law. Such as honoring your parents. Will you commit murder ? Will you dishonor parents Because the law is no longer a master no. Because despite the fact that these content are in the law . The are not wrong in themselves because they reveal Gods principles. Helping the poor ,keeping away from idol Etc. These are revelation of Gods mind. We do it because they are kingdom principle . The law reveals Gods mind ,standard of judgement,fairness ,love Etc. But because the people were not regenerated yet they lack the ability to obey the law and secondly they couldn't attain perfection or righteousness by it. Because the best man among them still has unrighteousness as nature . The law is the law of God .

Mr Joagbaje,Both contents and obedience of the law have been abolished because it was weak and useless....
Ok you are implying the "obedience part" is the one abolished while the "contents" remain....
Are you reading your very words?
Then whats the use of the "contents of the law" if we are not going to obey them....
Its the obedience part that ensures that contents are adhered to....
The scriptures were specific and its very clear Mr Joagbaje,
whether you choose to believe it or not.....
The former commandments have been set aside because it was weak and useless..for the law made nothing perfect...
So quick questions for you....
Why use "contents of the law" that are weak and useless?
Is there any sense in using contents of an expired and obsolete product?
The Lord said the law of Moses which includes its contents and obedience has been annulled and abolished.....End of story!

Will I commit murder ? Will I dishonor my parents? Hmmm....let me think....
In other words,You are suggesting that a believer needs the law of Moses in order not to commit murder?....in order not to bear false witness?...in order not to disobey ur parents?
Let me just believe you have not come across this scripture.....Or Maybe You have but chose to ignore it due to the fact that it conflicts with ur "tithe revelations"

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10

What motive or intent did our lord conceive before offering his son as a sacrifice for mankind?
Did God allow Christ to endure and go through all the tortures on the cross Just to uphold a law he went to complete and nullify?
Do you need more scriptures to prove that Love TOOK OVER from the law of Moses the very day Jesus said it was finished on the cross?

Finally,You sud never be mistaken about God......He has the power to take out any LAW and instill another.....
That was exactly what he did......Take out the old and establish the new...

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:7-13

Now before u start asking which law God wud be putting into their minds and hearts....,
You sud know that a change of priesthood also necessitated a change of the law ....Read Hebrews 7:12 for reference.
Hence,God was talking about a new law that was totally different from the former....
This corresponds with the scripture....

And this is [b]his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (1 John 3:23)[/b]

LOVE fulfilled ALL the requirements of the LAW....So when next you think of killing some one...Think about love...
Whenever you are tempted to steal....Think about LOVE for your neighbor....
So whatever Intent You have......Think about LOVE...
When God sent his own son Jesus to offer his life as an atoning sacrifice for ALL,his intent was that of LOVE....(John 3:16)
Remember Love for your neighbor does not mean ur nearest neighbor or friend.....
So if i may slightly borrow quote from T.B Joshua...."Let LOVE lead the WAY"

Joagbaje:

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law still gave the standard of righteness and wrong. Without the law you would not have known wrong or sin. The law revealed sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What was the belief systems of the Romans?
were they under the law or out side the law?
why did he say "because of the Jews,i became a jew to win over the jew"...."for the sake of those under the law,i became one under the law,though am not under the law,but i do so to win over those who are under the law......"
Those were part of Paul's very words in the scripture 1 Corinthians 9:19-23....
I have explained to you Paul's reason behind using the law as a tool to teach the Romans about christ....
Unfortunately,You have chosen to ignore that scripture for reasons best known to you and yet you keep doing a repetition and as well sounding like a broken record....
Again....i will show you those scriptures again and hope u lay aside ur obvious pride and study those scriptures....
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and Acts 28
You will understand why Paul (not God) had to use the ousted law of Moses to teach people about Christ...

Joagbaje:

[color=red]2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.


He was apostles to the Gentiles . But that's not our point now . Let's not be distracted.

The question is why would paul used an obsolete law to teach a new people. It's simple it's the law of God!

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good

Like i already explained in detail Paul missionary journey did not only teach the gentiles....
2 Timothy 1:11 only stated that he was a teacher of the gentiles....It didn't say he was ONLY DESIGNED OR INSTRUCTED TO teach the gentiles..
Thats why he was quoted as saying he became everything to everyone (Including being as one under the law and out side the law) Just so that he could win souls for the Christ...

When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers.
From morning till evening he expounded to them,
testifying to the [b] kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
Acts 28:23[/b]

The audience Paul was teaching or preaching to were not yet MATURED enough to grasp the gospel of grace...hence he used the law to convince them about Christ....It doesn't necessarily mean he believed in the law of Moses...knowing fully well about the futility of the law of Moses and its contrast with the "gospel of grace" (Ref: Galatians 3)

Since you are so insistent on ur law mantra...which you claim is not ur basis for ur tithe doctrine....(Which i don't believe)
If the law of Moses was perfect or needed or had relevant contents like you opined,Why did God order for a change of the law?
Was it because the new law was superior,presided over by a high priest Jesus and founded on better promises?
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing....Galatians 2:15
if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law....Or don't you think so?

Joagbaje:

That's different . He sent himself ,he had to use fleshly way to win them which can never work. Even though That should have even made more sense to show identification with the Jews by compromising his faith. But what we are dealing with was Paul using the law to teach Gods principle to Gentiles . Let's humble ourselves . It's because the principles are based on truth. Kingdom principles . Law or no law . It should have been a crime to use what was evil to illustrate good

Interestingly,you are now getting to understand wat Paul was trying to do....
What you call crime or compromise,he calls it winning souls for Christ....
And he doesn't care about the means....he had a mandate...he had an intent and a motivation..and the zeal....which was far more important than the pattern he used....

There are no kingdom principles in an out-dated and condemned law.....
His means may have flawed but only true and spiritually inclined believers will appreciate his calling....

Joagbaje:

We don't need o former night club stripper to continue to strip so as to lure men to christ.

illustration bro....that's what Paul had to do....you can question his pattern or means but not his commitment to win souls for the sake of the gospel...

Joagbaje:

That would have been excellent if he was dealing with Jews. But now he became a Jew to the Gentiles!

From his submissions,it was quite obvious that he was also dealing with the Jews....
He outlined those he was ministering to; The Jews,those under the law,those outside the law and the weak!
Or are you implying that if he had an opportunity to preach or teach the gospel of grace to a Jewish audience,he will decline the offer simply because he only teaches the gentiles?
Who was he teaching or preaching to in Acts 28?
It seems you are forgetting that the Jews are not also saved because they practice Judaism which is totally alien to the gospel of grace...which literally makes them SINNERS

Joagbaje:

It's takes humility to admit wrong. I just showed you where paul got the principle from because you never knew that the love of God was not a New Testament revelation . I wish you could study the old without biase

Like i told you before....i don't need or use outdated or obsolete products...maybe you use them...but not me...
There is no bias for the old....it is simply what you called it OLD....and worn out....
It was great while it lasted...unfortunately God found out that the law alienated him from his people...
The law made his people worship him with their lips but their heart was far away from him....
The law made God's people obtain justification through eye-service or self-righteousness...
Same law that prevents priests from helping anyone in need simply because they were forbidden by law to touch any thing that had blood on it...
There were so many inconsistencies about the law....God took notice and made changes...!

Joagbaje:

So when God asked the people to come with offering , that is imposition right? We are talking about God. Yet Paul asked the churches to lay money aside weekly as relief .and that is love . What's the difference ?

You and i know it was contained in the law to make OFFERINGS!
It was a law requirement....which is the same as an imposition!
It just shows you the loop-sided nature of the law....which God in his immerse wisdom and unspeakable love corrected by setting aside the old and establishing the new....
What Paul did was not different from what transpired in Acts 4:32-35 where believers sold their lands and brought the money equivalent to help those that were in NEED (GENEROSITY)....same gesture was displayed by the Macedonians whom Paul admonished the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 8:1-7 to emulate and also learn the grace of giving from the Macedonians....
Just as the law of Moses differs from the law of grace....hence GENEROSITY differs from OFFERINGS...!

Joagbaje:

And God told moses only to collect from those who give it willingly . Is that not the same thing? They only collected from those who gave willingly Just as Gideon was asked to send back those who were not willing to follow him. He accepted those who came . God has never taken from man his will power. You have the right to obey or disobey God.

Thats totally different....during the time of the law,collections and offerings where primarily hinged on what you get out of it....and failure to offer some thing negated you from God.....This is just another reason why the law never placed the giver with a choice to give from a free mind devoid of compulsion or hesitation....
So according to the loop-sided law,If you pay,You get God's blessings,if you don't pay,God seizes to bless you...this was also synonymous with "tithe payment"!
But under a new covenant,giving is based on LOVE and not compulsion or imposition...hence the law made nothing perfect!

Joagbaje:

Really? Can I ask you a honest question? What bible did they have in the early church? If you carefully search . It's the law and the prophets.

After carefully searching through....it was apparent that some jews intended forcing the newly converted believer to observe the law and the prophets...

Some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved!”
But after Paul and Barnabas had engaged them in serious argument and debate, the church arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this controversy.
When they had been sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, explaining in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and they created great joy among all the brothers.

When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, the apostles, and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses!”

Then the apostles and the elders assembled to consider this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them: “Brothers, you are aware that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the gospel message and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now then, why are you testing God by putting a "yoke" on the disciples’ necks that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe we are saved through the "grace of the Lord Jesus" in the same way they are.” Acts 15:1-11


If you read and study the entire Acts 15,you will agree with me that the apostles were alarmed and disappointed by some of the jews who wanted the newly converted believers to observe the law of moses....Due to frequent harassment from the jews,the elders and apostles wrote a letter to the gentiles...where they were advised to observe some laws like abstaining from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality....And this was done in order to keep them safe from the constant siege of the judaism based audience who want the to circumcise and observe the entire laws...Acts 15:22-29

Joagbaje:

When paul told Timothy to study ,. What scriptures ? THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS .

Could you be so kind to place the scripture where Paul told timothy to study THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS

Joagbaje:

In Pauls personal study why he was asking for books and parchment to read. What was it LAW AND PROPHETS. let's not become holier than God . All scriptures are given by God inspiration . They are holy scriptures .

First of ALL provide scriptures where Paul told timothy to study the "law and the prophets"....

All scriptures are given by God's inspiration right?
Which means the scripture where the "burning of incense" is sighted is holy and acceptable right?
Okay...we should also carry out heave and wave offerings too...cos its part of the holy scriptures..
Wat about burnt offerings?
Physical Circumcision is also part of the holy scripture....
Now since they are holy scriptures according to you...How many have you so far observed?

Joagbaje:

Tithing existed before the law. As every other spiritual principle . Like prayer , sacrifice , fasting offerings Etc . The fact that the law talks about them does not make the law the originator. The law is only for references . And the fact that the law was done away doesn't take away kingdom principles . There no place God or christ ever spoke against tithing

So we can as well conclude...that "burnt offerings" are "spiritual principles"....Physical circumcision is also a spiritual principle right?
Remember these practices were existed before the law like tithes according to Joagbaje....hence they are still valid right?
Now If you answers are in the affirmative,when did you last partake in a burnt offering?
Have you had ur physical circumcision?
And i beg you, don't start saying the rest were replaced except tithe.....such statements will label u a deceptive person!

Joagbaje:

He is a prophet and he has Gods revelations . The principle was revealed to him.

No more "revelations" Mr Joagbaje...show me from scriptures

Joagbaje:

Let me tell you something . Tithing is the least of our givings. I may sound boastful I would have mentioned some things . My givings far exceed my tithing . Personal giving. And also giving for my company and business corporately. People give cars lands houses which far exceed their tithes as they were inspired .

I asked you a simple question....instead of answering,you started listing all the thing you do with your money.....
Please who receives the other 90% of ur income after you have offered 10% to your supposed priest.....according to that scripture?

openmine:

Mr Joagbaje,Both contents and obedience of the law have been abolished because it was weak and useless....
Ok you are implying the "obedience part" is the one abolished while the "contents" remain....

The law is the law of God . It's a foundation of rightness and wrong. What is condemned is that we are not justified by obedience to it . We are justified by faith . But the law is foundation of what is right and what is wrong. It reveals Gods mind. Roman 7:7 is clear enough

Romans 7:7
What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another].

Can't you see it here ? The only reason Paul would quote the law was simply because of the principle there . The law is not evil . But it is wrong to feel or seek to be made righteous by just obeying it.

Are you reading your very words?
Then whats the use of the "contents of the law" if we are not going to obey them....
Its the obedience part that ensures that contents are adhered to....

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Why use "contents of the law" that are weak and useless?

It is only useles in the area of justification .as long as it's not used to be made right with God or seek salvation on its own. The righteous demand of the law is fulfilled in christ.

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Will I commit murder ? Will I dishonor my parents? Hmmm....let me think....
In other words,You are suggesting that a believer needs the law of Moses in order not to commit murder?..

Give a straight answer pls. Now that the law is done away with according to you. Will you now commit murder or dishonor parents?

Let me just believe you have not come across this scripture.....

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Even going by the scripture you quoted you're admitting to my point . love has fulfilled what law ?. Evil law ?..

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

The only fault of the law is not that the content is evil but lack the power of justification . It doesn't take away the fact that the law is good.

[color=purple]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. . . .
I will put my laws into their minds,. . . . . And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest

Even thou it's a future prophecy for the nation of isreal but by law of double reference still applicable to the church. Going by the scripture you quoted . We don't need teachers as ministry gift . God puts his new nature in us. But we still need knowledge .

Now before u start asking which law God wud be putting into their minds and hearts....,

It's simply the ability to fulfill righteous demand of the law by the power of the new nature

LOVE fulfilled ALL the requirements of the LAW....So when next you think of killing some one...Think about love...

Love has always been there from Old Testament .

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Why would paul be saying steal no more. Keep away from idols . Lie not.

What was the belief systems of the Romans?
were they under the law or out side the law?

That's my point. They were not under Jewish law. The only reason paul will quote the Jewish law for them is because . That's the scripture . It's foundation .

why did he say "because of the Jews,i became a jew to win over the jew"...."for the sake of those under the law,i became one under the law,though am not under the law,but i do so to win over those who are under the law......"

We've done this over and over. It's not applicable . There no justified reason to mention a Jewish law to Romans . They shouldn't have known it existed Sef. But paul used it because it's the law of God . It's foundation . As much as they don't seek justification by it.

Those were part of Paul's very words in the scripture 1 Corinthians 9:19-23....
I have explained to you Paul's reason behind using the law as a tool to teach the Romans about christ....
Unfortunately,You have chosen to ignore that scripture for reasons best known to you and yet you keep doing a repetition and as well sounding like a broken record....
Again....i will show you those scriptures again and hope u lay aside ur obvious pride and study those scriptures....
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and Acts 28

I did saw it but it's not apllicable . If it were to Jews only . I will agree with you. But Gentiles and Jewish law don't marry .

You will understand why Paul (not God) had to use the ousted law of Moses to teach people about Christ...

It doesn't make sense.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

The audience Paul was teaching or preaching to were not yet MATURED enough to grasp the gospel of grace...hence he used the law to convince them about Christ.

That's your personal assumption but it doesn't make spiritual sense . There will always be baby Christian in every congregation till jesus come

If the law of Moses was perfect or needed or had relevant contents like you opined,Why did God order for a change of the law?

Pls quote specific passage for context purpose .

illustration bro....that's what Paul had to do....you can question his pattern or means but not his commitment to win souls for the sake of the gospel...

So you endorse it if a former striper does stripping as a way of evangelism?

You and i know it was contained in the law to make OFFERINGS!
It was a law requirement....which is the same as an imposition!

Very funny. Do you attend a church? If you do does your pastor give instructions. If he does. Is it imposition ? Like giving for a project or something

It just shows you the loop-sided nature of the law....which God in his immerse wisdom and unspeakable love corrected by setting aside the old and establishing the new

Brother it's the same principle .

What Paul did was not different from what transpired in Acts 4:32-35 where believers sold their lands and brought the money equivalent to help those that were in NEED (GENEROSITY)....

It's always been in the kingdom of God . There have always been different kinds of givings. Free will offering , instructed offering . Vows ,alms .

same gesture was displayed by the Macedonians whom Paul admonished the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 8:1-7 to emulate and also learn the grace of giving from the Macedonians....
Just as the law of Moses differs from the law of grace....hence GENEROSITY differs from OFFERINGS...!

Paul as a pastor gave intruction to his churches period . It's left for them how much they gave . According to their prosperity. Same thing moses did . Those who don't have gold gave silver down to ram skin.

openmine:


Thats totally different....during the time of the law,collections and offerings where primarily hinged on what you get out of it....and failure to offer some thing negated you from God.....This is just another reason why the law never placed the giver with a choice to give from a free mind devoid of compulsion or hesitation....
So according to the loop-sided law,If you pay,You get God's blessings,if you don't pay,God seizes to bless you...this was also synonymous with "tithe payment"!
But under a new covenant,giving is based on LOVE and not compulsion or imposition...hence the law made nothing perfect!

Oh so What do you say to these ?

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Maybe paul has become a manipulator here or talking to babes according to you.

After carefully searching through....it was apparent that some jews intended forcing the newly converted believer to observe the law and the prophets...

My question was simple . Let me make is clearer . What scripture were they studying in the early church. Was it Old Testament or New Testament ?

Could you be so kind to place the scripture where Paul told timothy to study THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS

He told Timothy to pay attention to reading and also told him to study. My question was . What scripture was he to read ?

Okay...we should also carry out heave and wave offerings too...cos its part of the holy scriptures..
Wat about burnt offerings?
Physical Circumcision is also part of the holy scripture....
Now since they are holy scriptures according to you...How many have you so far observed?

That's where knowledge of scriptures comes in. To know what christ has fulfilled and what principles still applicable .

So we can as well conclude...that "burnt offerings" are "spiritual principles"....Physical circumcision is also a spiritual principle right?
Remember these practices were existed before the law like tithes according to Joagbaje....hence they are still valid right?

Oh sure the principle still applicable . Because it's kingdom principle . Offerings ,sacrifices ,tithes will always be kingdom principles

Philippians 4:18
But I have all things, and abound. I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the things that came from you, a sweet-smelling fragrance, an acceptable and well-pleasing sacrifice to God.

Hebrews 13:15
Through him, then, let us offer up a sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of lips which make confession to his name.

Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Please who receives the other 90% of ur income after you have offered 10% to your supposed priest.....according to that scripture?

It's my choice what I use it for .

Joagbaje:


The law is the law of God . It's a foundation of rightness and wrong. What is condemned is that we are not justified by obedience to it . We are justified by faith . But the law is foundation of what is right and what is wrong. It reveals Gods mind. Roman 7:7 is clear enough

Romans 7:7
What then do we conclude? Is the Law identical with sin? Certainly not! Nevertheless, if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another].

Can't you see it here ? The only reason Paul would quote the law was simply because of the principle there . The law is not evil . But it is wrong to feel or seek to be made righteous by just obeying it.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We can afford to go round and round about this...and i wont get tired ....i only pity those who view our posts cos they are going to be in for a long ride....

Now to the over-flogged issue at hand....I have actually provided you with detailed scriptures as to why Paul had to uphold the "law of moses"...
Which you have not stopped quoting in Romans 7:7...

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 shows that his intentions were to use the law of Moses as a front to lead people to christ...
This intent was made clearer in Acts 28:23 where he convinced the Roman audience about Christ using the "law and the prophets"
This proves why he was in support of the mosaic law when he spoke to the roman audience but vehemently spoke against it in his letter to the Galatians...

And i have also proven to you with scriptures that the law has been nullified and annulled because it was outdated,weak and useless...
(Hebrews 7:18;Galatians 3:23-25;Ephesians 2:14-18)
Still wondering why u keep defending a law that God has nullified and ousted...Is it becos you have ulterior motives?
Or you need a base in the mosaic law to justify your payment of tithes?

Since you are insistent on the law being in existence or relevant,who is the priest that presides over the mosaic law..?

Again if Paul stated in Romans 7:7 that he supports the law,it simply means circumcision,burnt offerings,heave offerings are still relevant to the believer...It also means Christ death was in vain...which in many ways rubbishes Paul's entire grace gospel...

Joagbaje:

It is only useles in the area of justification .as long as it's not used to be made right with God or seek salvation on its own. The righteous demand of the law is fulfilled in christ.

What to you is justification?
If the law was useless in terms of being made right with God,why are the practices still relevant according to you?
If we can not be made right by the law,it simply means its contents and practices are worthless and useless...and that's becos it can not make you right before God no matter how much you uphold it....
Its so simple to understand....
Its apparent that you are confused the word called justification....

Joagbaje:

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Nice for bringing up this scripture but its in-complete...include verse 9 and 10..

8 But we know that the law is good, provided one uses it legitimately.
9 We know that the law is not meant for a righteous person, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and irreverent, for those who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
10 for the sexually immoral and homosexuals, for kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching based on the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was entrusted to me.
1 Timothy 1:8-10

So i ask who was the law made for..?
Believers or unbelievers?
Verse 9 and 10 answers that for you but you intentionally ignored 9 and 10 just to front 8 to justify ur defence!

Joagbaje:

Give a straight answer pls. Now that the law is done away with according to you. Will you now commit murder or dishonor parents?

Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answers...
Of course Not....and its simply becos of the LOVE nature of Christ that has been imputed into me...
I can not kill because God's nature of LOVE is in me...
I can not dishonor my Parents because of the LOVE nature of God in me...
The love of God has been embedded in my mind and written in my heart..(Hebrews 8:10)
Funny enough your Oga and mentor Pastor chris oyakilome made dis same submission of mine in one of his programmes....
Which in a way makes me surprised when you ask....its either you want me to say it or u know it but prefer not to say it...

Joagbaje:

Even going by the scripture you quoted you're admitting to my point . love has fulfilled what law ?. Evil law ?..
What to you is fulfillment of the law?

Strong's Concordance

teleó: to bring to an end, complete its purpose, fulfill,accomplish
Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
This proves that the law has served its purpose and has given way to a perfect law called LOVE..(Galatians 3:23-25)

So do you need me to explain any further how love has fulfilled the law?

Joagbaje:

The only fault of the law is not that the content is evil but lack the power of justification . It doesn't take away the fact that the law is good.

When a law lacks the power of justification,what then remains of the law?....its as good as dead and buried...stop beating a dead horse!

Joagbaje:

Even thou it's a future prophecy for the nation of isreal but by law of double reference still applicable to the church. Going by the scripture you quoted . We don't need teachers as ministry gift . God puts his new nature in us. But we still need knowledge .

Oga....there is nothing futuristic about that prophesy..
..it has already happened..
The priesthood of Jesus has been established...
The new covenant has been made...the new law has established!
God has imputed the nature of Love in our hearts and written it in our hearts...

Joagbaje:

It's simply the ability to fulfill righteous demand of the law by the power of the new nature

Wrong...Your righteousness can never be attained based on the law of moses....
New law,new content,new covenant,new priesthood,different justification...
But in ur belief in christ which is based on Love...

Joagbaje:

Love has always been there from Old Testament .

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

If indeed that particular law as you have quoted was perfect enough to enable man love God genuinely,why was there still need for another law?
God found a fault with that kind of love...which was not perfect...hence he sort for a new law..
Looking specifically at that verse,The motivation to love God with thine heart,soul and might were hinged on what the people were to receive in return and not based on genuine love based on conviction....
Ask yourself why did the lord seek another law in other to draw closer to his people?
If that "love"(being part of the mosaic law) as contained in the scripture you quoted was genuine,why did the lord tag it weak,useless and imperfect?

Joagbaje:

Why would paul be saying steal no more. Keep away from idols . Lie not.

You don't need the law to stop stealing,you don't need the law to stop lying,you don't need the law to stop idol worship...
When you Love God based on ur convictions,his very nature takes root on you....you wont be able to steal,lie or worship idols because of the love nature of God imputed in you...

That's my point. They were not under Jewish law. The only reason paul will quote the Jewish law for them is because . That's the scripture . It's foundation .


Because of what?
You still haven't answered the question...are they out side the law or under the law?

Joagbaje:

We've done this over and over. It's not applicable . There no justified reason to mention a Jewish law to Romans . They shouldn't have known it existed Sef. But paul used it because it's the law of God . It's foundation . As much as they don't seek justification by it.

I will keep going over it again and again until it sinks into mind about what Paul's intentions were...Unfortunately you choose not to see it...
Paul stated in the scripture in clear terms why he used the mosaic law to teach various audience,it was for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL (1 Corinthians 9:23)

NOW I DO ALL THESE FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL so I may become a partner in its benefits. (1 Corinthians 9:23)
What part do you not understand about the grammar?

Joagbaje:

I did saw it but it's not apllicable . If it were to Jews only . I will agree with you. But Gentiles and Jewish law don't marry .

Paul stated in the scripture in clear terms why he used the mosaic law to teach various audience,it was for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL (1 Corinthians 9:23)

NOW I DO ALL THESE FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL so I may become a partner in its benefits. (1 Corinthians 9:23)
What part do you not understand about the grammar?

Joagbaje:

It doesn't make sense.

To you it doesn't make sense....u are not alone...even peter also had an issue with Paul's teachings....He used methods that were not applicable...but he had a target and motive...which was to win soul for the sake of the gospel!

Joagbaje:

That's your personal assumption but it doesn't make spiritual sense . There will always be baby Christian in every congregation till jesus come

Wrong its not....study Acts 15
Babies will one day grow to become matured.....they will never remain babes forever!

Joagbaje:

Pls quote specific passage for context purpose .

Where were ur eyes when i was quoting that very scripture....If you cant read the scriptures am quoting....how wud u be able to understand?
U have a bible...right?
Study Hebrews 7:12-13;8:7

Joagbaje:

So you endorse it if a former striper does stripping as a way of evangelism?

I made an illustration...
Just to buttress my point where Paul said, "I have become ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE, so that I may by EVERY POSSIBLE MEANS SAVE SOME."
I may not use a stripper example....but am reading meanings into Paul's admission....he was willing to do what ever it took to ensure the gospel was preached...Thats just what his thoughts were...so don't blame him for such "actions" and don't blame me for understanding his plight

Joagbaje:

Very funny. Do you attend a church? If you do does your pastor give instructions. If he does. Is it imposition ? Like giving for a project or something

The church i attend only offers free-will collections....
Which is not mandatory or imposed...
Giving for a project or cause is based on the leading of your spirit...so one in church is subjecting anyone to either give a particular amount or impose it on anyone to give...
So maybe the assembly you attend may coercing and manipulative....different stokes for different folks

Joagbaje:

Brother it's the same principle .

Uncle the difference is that my mine has scripture backing...urs is based on ur "revelation" whether true or false..

Joagbaje:

It's always been in the kingdom of God . There have always been different kinds of givings. Free will offering , instructed offering . Vows ,alms .

Did you intentionally omit "tithes" and replaced it with "instructed offering" from ur list of giving?

Joagbaje:

Paul as a pastor gave intruction to his churches period . It's left for them how much they gave . According to their prosperity. Same thing moses did . Those who don't have gold gave silver down to ram skin.

I disagree....it was not an instruction...it was a word of encouragement to the Corinthians which was based on wat they had and not what dey did not have....
Please go back and study 2 Corinthians 8 and study it slowly....

openmine:


Sir pls stop misquoting and taking those verses out of context....its very explicit from the verses that just as "the levites received wat was from the temple,ministers fed from their teachings...." In other words, ministers are to be supported as they teach the gospel....which is totally different from wat the levites obtained....cos they received food from the tithes of farm produce and d cattle herd which is contained in the law of moses in accordance with the old covenant ....i ask again...are you sir still under the old covenant..or under a levitical priesthood?

You compare ministers or refer to them as levites forgetting that levites operated from an annulled and invalid covenant which contains the laws of moses.....dere is no reason whatsoever for such comparison.....its like comparing the law of moses to the law of grace...immpossicant

inasmuch as u try in vain to make a parallel combo,u sud know both are not operating from the same covenant....which renders such comparison invalid and to an extent manipulative....Pls try again!

Christian ministers of today worlwide are adept at taking passages out of context to suit their teachings which more often than not is diametrically opposite to what the quoted passages mean. They pay no heed to the principle of hermeneutics and biblical exegesis, rather they practise eisegesis.

This whole tithe issue in my opinion is so easy to understand from the viewpoint of the bible, but no, ministers have to make everything so complicated. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.

dorox:


This is what happens when you ask a man to understand the same thing that his livelihood depends on him not understanding. It is a difficult thing to ask of any man.

Hehehehehe....touche!

openmine:

My brother,Personally am in awe about what they insinuate in the bible....i start wondering if they are using a bible different from mine....i tot i cud reason with him but its obvious he has to defend tithes with all his life since he benefits from it....unfortunately for him,am not ready to allow him continue to manipulate the scriptures and keep offering atheists and newly converts a reason to mock God because of tithes...its really unfortunate..

Sometimes when I sit back and reflect on the harm these so-called men of God have done to Christianity, it baffles me. Courtesy of their pride, greed, oversized ego and whatnot, they have made the term Çhristianity' to be a pariah amongst civilised men (just as the terrorist has rubbished the term, Islam).

Islam has its terrorist while Christianity has it's wayward and posturing Mega Men-Of-God! It's a shame (spits!)

Joagbaje:
... I will respond to other post later

I advise you desist from making comebacks on this thread. Why? your stance will be thoroughly rubbished (if posts from certain folks here are anything to go by as they are more detailed, intellectual and educative).

Do yourself a favour and leave with your dignity intact.

Joagbaje:


Oh so What do you say to these ?

2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Maybe paul has become a manipulator here or talking to babes according to you.

Uncle Just as much as i want to validate the sowing and reaping principle,we must understand that until you have decided in "ur heart to give without compulsion or hesitation" ,Your giving seizes to be giving....
Sowing sparingly or bountifully is dependent on the giver...and based on what he has and not what he does not have....
Why did you leave out 7 and the rest of the scriptures...?
Read through the entire chapter 9 to understand the "grace behind giving" ....
So how does you scriptures make paul look like a manipulator?

Joagbaje:

My question was simple . Let me make is clearer . What scripture were they studying in the early church. Was it Old Testament or New Testament ?

Based on the letters to the gentiles,their study was based on their level of understanding...some of paul's different letters indicated some had a different level of understanding....
For instance,in paul's letter to the Romans,he appeared to uphold the law of Moses but vehemently condemned the same law in his letter to the galatians
Every letter from Paul to the gentiles or Jews was as a result of their level of understanding and faith....!

Joagbaje:

He told Timothy to pay attention to reading and also told him to study. My question was . What scripture was he to read ?

certainly not the mosaic law....And most of what timothy knew and studied was purely based on Paul's teachings...
Thats why i needed the scripture from you...where was it stated that timothy was studying the "law and prophets"
Abi na you don become timothy PRO?

Joagbaje:

That's where knowledge of scriptures comes in. To know what christ has fulfilled and what principles still applicable .

Don't complicate ur already battered stance....You said the pre-law practices including tithes,circumcision and burnt offerings were spiritual principles....
So If Christ finished work on the cross had put an end(fulfilled) to those practices,why do you single out "tithe" as the only pre-law practice that wasn't fulfilled...?
You see where ur deceit has been ruthlessly exposed...So burnt offerings were fulfilled,same as circumcision but tithes refused to be fulfilled and decided to disobey Christ and stay behind as an "unfulfilled practice" according to you
Once again Uncle which scripture declared tithe as an unfulfilled practice in the pre-law?

Joagbaje:

Oh sure the principle still applicable . Because it's kingdom principle . Offerings ,sacrifices ,tithes will always be kingdom principles

Philippians 4:18
But I have all things, and abound. I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the things that came from you, a sweet-smelling fragrance, an acceptable and well-pleasing sacrifice to God.

Hebrews 13:15
Through him, then, let us offer up a sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of lips which make confession to his name.

Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

These scriptures have absolutely nothing to do with "burnt offerings" or "physical circumcision".........
Am talking about "burnt offerings" not sacrifice of praise to God....
Have you been physically circumcised?
Your "wayo" ploy no get brake

Joagbaje:

It's my choice what I use it for .

In other words,ur pre-law tithe is fraudulent....

4C2215131:


Hehehehehe....touche!

I no lie...those guy's words made me laugh so hard....
But on a serious note,he is right....

openmine:

I no lie...those guy's words made me laugh so hard....
But on a serious note,he is right....

Of course he is. And do you know what? I believe the proponents of the tithe thing know the truth deep down inside but are afraid to admit it as it calls to question their beliefs in not just the tithe stuff but other areas of their theology. They begin to wonder if they are wrong in a whole lot of other aspects of their lives and seeing what keeps them sane is the structure and comfort they find in the belief system they've espoused, the resulting psychological chaos in believeing anything contrary will be too hard to bear.

openmine:

Now to the over-flogged issue at hand....I have actually provided you with detailed scriptures as to why Paul had to uphold the "law of moses"...

It wasn't relevant to your cause. Paul rather became a Jew to the Gentiles . You're shooting yourself in the foot there

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 shows that his intentions were to use the law of Moses as a front to lead people to christ...

More shooting in the foot . Yet this is the law you condemn

This intent was made clearer in Acts 28:23 where he convinced the Roman audience about Christ using the "law and the prophets"
This proves why he was in support of the mosaic law when he spoke to the roman audience but vehemently spoke against it in his letter to the Galatians...

So what is your point then. If the apostle to the gentles could be so proud to use the law why are you demonising the law then? We are all viewing the scriptures before our eyes here

And i have also proven to you with scriptures that the law has been nullified and annulled because it was outdated,weak and useless...
(Hebrews 7:18;Galatians 3:23-25;Ephesians 2:14-18)
Still wondering why u keep defending a law that God has nullified and ousted...Is it becos you have ulterior motives?
Or you need a base in the mosaic law to justify your payment of tithes?

Ask paul. Shey na our apostle .

Since you are insistent on the law being in existence or relevant,who is the priest that presides over the mosaic law..?

The scriptures are Gods scriptures .period . It's not about order of priest .

Again if Paul stated in Romans 7:7 that he supports the law,it simply means circumcision,burnt offerings,heave offerings are still relevant to the believer...t .

But I showed you scriptures to read for yourself . As much as you try to label me a law advocate . The principles are my point . You don't condemn spiritual principles because they are mentioned in the law. There are shadows in the law and there are practical principles . The kingdom principles . Christ

it also means Christ death was in vain...which in many ways rubbishes Paul's entire grace gospel..

Here we go round and round again. It can only rubbish the blood of christ if we seek be made righteous by them instead of faith.

What to you is justification?

To be made right with God.

If the law was useless in terms of being made right with God,why are the practices still relevant according to you?

It's a foundation for right and wrong . Kingdom principles are there . And you have to know what is done away and what is still applicable .

If we can not be made right by the law,it simply means its contents and practices are worthless and useless...and that's becos it can not make you right before God no matter how much you uphold it....

Let's take gay marriage for example . Is right or wrong ?
....

Its apparent that you are confused the word called justification....

Kindly give a definition

So i ask who was the law made for..?
Believers or unbelievers?

For man .

Verse 9 and 10 answers that for you but you intentionally ignored 9 and 10 just to front 8 to justify ur defense .

I won't do that

Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answers...
Of course Not....and its simply becos of the LOVE nature of Christ that has been imputed into me...
I can not kill because God's nature of LOVE is in me...

Yet you can rude and speak guile and the nature in you does not address it

I can not dishonor my Parents because of the LOVE nature of God in me...
The love of God has been embedded in my mind and written in my heart..(Hebrews 8:10)

How come the nature in the believers in Ephesus couldn't address them and Paul had to use the law as reference .

What of the Roman church ? He couldn't use the new nature and the holyghost to teach them about

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

How come it's only you who doesn't need word of exhortation?

Funny enough your Oga and mentor Pastor chris oyakilome made dis same submission of mine in one of his programmes....
Which in a way makes me surprised when you ask....its either you want me to say it or u know it but prefer not to say it...

Deal with jo and the bible

When a law lacks the power of justification,what then remains of the law?....its as good as dead and buried...stop beating a dead horse!

Oga....there is nothing futuristic about that prophesy..
..it has already happened..
The priesthood of Jesus has been established...
The new covenant has been made...the new law has established!
God has imputed the nature of Love in our hearts and written it in our hearts...

The salvation of isreal is for a whole nation and its futuristic after tribulation. Israel is still blinded .

Wrong...Your righteousness can never be attained based on the law of moses....

Have I said otherwise ?

If indeed that particular law as you have quoted was perfect enough to enable man love God genuinely,why was there still need for another law?

The problem was man . It was man that lack the ability to do the law.

You don't need the law to stop stealing,you don't need the law to stop lying,you don't need the law to stop idol worship...
When you Love God based on ur convictions,his very nature takes root on you....you wont be able to steal,lie or worship idols because of the love nature of God imputed in you...

In that case we don't even need a bible nor exhortation nor a pastor . you see am?

That's my point. They were not under Jewish law. The only reason paul will quote the Jewish law for them is because . That's the scripture . It's found

You're still shooting yourself in the foot. It's because it's the word of God . And the law reveal God standing and principle .the law is holy . It's wrong use of it that may be wrong

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Because of what?
You still haven't answered the question...are they out side the law or under the law?

I don't get you . Kindly explain

I will keep going over it again and again until it sinks into mind about what Paul's intentions were...Unfortunately you choose not to see it...
Paul stated in the scripture in clear terms why he used the mosaic law to teach various audience,it was for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL (1 Corinthians 9:23)

He didn't become a gentile . He rather became a Jew to reach the gentile . It's conflict . It doesn't add up. He can't quote the law he condemned according to you

Paul stated in the scripture in clear terms why he used the mosaic law to teach various audience,it was for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL (1 Corinthians 9:23)

NOW I DO ALL THESE FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL so I may become a partner in its benefits. (1 Corinthians 9:23)
What part do you not understand about the grammar?

That's your application. To the Jew I understand but Gentiles ? Forget it. He quoted the law because it's Gods word.

To you it doesn't make sense....u are not alone...even peter also had an issue with Paul's teachings....He used methods that were not applicable...but he had a target and motive...which was to win soul for the sake of the gospel!

Then if that's the case ,a lady can sleep with a man to bring him to church abi

Wrong its not....study Acts 15
Babies will one day grow to become matured.....they will never remain babes forever!

You're wrong sir . There will always be babes in the body of christ . People converted daily .

Where were ur eyes when i was quoting that very scripture....If you cant read the scriptures am quoting....how wud u be able to understand?

You don't have to be rude. The love nature you claim leads you has what is called coutessy . We are not agbero

U have a bible...right?
Study Hebrews 7:12-13;8:7

If you can't post it here for us to read or at least type it out kindly forget it.

I made an illustration...
Just to buttress my point where Paul said, "I have become ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE, so that I may by EVERY POSSIBLE MEANS SAVE SOME."
I may not use a stripper example....but am reading meanings into Paul's admission....he was willing to do what ever it took to ensure the gospel was preached...Thats just what his thoughts were...so don't blame him for such "actions" and don't blame me for understanding his plight


The church i attend only offers free-will collections....
Which is not mandatory or imposed...
Giving for a project or cause is based on the leading of your spirit...so one in church is subjecting anyone to either give a particular amount or impose it on anyone to give...
So maybe the assembly you attend may coercing and manipulative....different stokes for different folks


Uncle the difference is that my mine has scripture backing...urs is based on ur "revelation" whether true or false..


Did you intentionally omit "tithes" and replaced it with "instructed offering" from ur list of giving?



I disagree....it was not an instruction...it was a word of encouragement to the Corinthians which was based on wat they had and not what dey did not have....
Please go back and study 2 Corinthians 8 and study it slowly....[/quote]

4C2215131:


Sometimes when I sit back and reflect on the harm these so-called men of God have done to Christianity, it baffles me. Courtesy of their pride, greed, oversized ego and whatnot, they have made the term Çhristianity' to be a pariah amongst civilised men (just as the terrorist has rubbished the term, Islam).

Islam has its terrorist while Christianity has it's wayward and posturing Mega Men-Of-God! It's a shame (spits!)

You're very correct bro.

Islam has its terrorists..... Christianity has its thieves and fraudsters.

4C2215131:


I advise you desist from making comebacks on this thread. Why? your stance will be thoroughly rubbished (if posts from certain folks here are anything to go by as they are more detailed, intellectual and educative).

Do yourself a favour and leave with your dignity intact.

You've been called upon as a cheer leader . It doesn't change truth . Come on board as long as you put your flesh under .

Joagbaje:


You've been called upon as a cheer leader . It doesn't change truth . Come on board as long as you put your flesh under .

My coming on board will be too vulgar a display of intellectual prowess taking departure off the Bible as openmine and others are occupying your time judiciously. Should you have a brother-in-arms then, the duel will be better matched and I just might opt in. For now, you're out-numbered by your opponents who are not just clanging cymbals but formidable opponents displaying much fecundity with respect to the word.

4C2215131:


My coming on board will be too vulgar a display of intellectual prowess taking departure off the Bible as openmine and others are occupying your time judiciously. Should you have a brother-in-arms then, the duel will be better matched and I just might opt in. For now, you're out-numbered by your opponents who are not just clanging cymbals but formidable opponents displaying much fecundity with respect to the word.

Okay then . If your Christianity is vulgarity . Kindly watch from grand stand lest thou sin.

Joagbaje:


Okay then . If your Christianity is vulgarity . Kindly watch from grand stand lest thou sin.

You don't seem to understand me.

Have you seen the movie 'The Exorcist'? The original one, that is part 1 (1973 or so). If you have, there was a scene when a reverend Father asked the possessed girl who was tied to her bed why she couldnt untie herself seeing she claimed she was the devil. She replied (that is the demon/devil in her) by saying that would be too vulgar a display of power. I'm sure you know what that means. My statement was a should I say... parallel.

Candour:


You're very correct bro.

Islam has its terrorists..... Christianity has its thieves and fraudsters.

But there is a difference, the terrorists are actually practising true islam as established by their prophet whilst the thieves and fraudsters in christianity are going contrary to the teachings of christ.

Pheeew. What a thread!

Openmine, you seemed new to this arena, and I say welcome! Certain gladiators here, over the years, have been mute for several reasons, but this thread, is a replica of another that has being long dealt with, devoid of the shameless personal attacks of folks who cannot stay on topic, but show their neonate nature in biblical discussions. I welcome you to this thread, and offer you a new thread for a square discussion, of course making plainer the things joagbaje has been saying since the thread below and many more before it.

In this thread, you will be amazed at the reasoning of some folks; Highlights include

1. Tithes and offerings, Tithe is done with, so is offerings, what we take today in church is called COLLECTIONS. Let me quote one of many

What is this? What we give in worship gathering is 'contribution' NOT offerings. We don't give 'offerings' in worship gathering UNDER THE NT, such was by the law.


Someone then showed where Jesus called these givings as gifts, here was one of the replies

when Jesus made dat statement there was no christianity, only judaism, it was still OT, Christ died gave d perfect offering(his blood) and brought in NT n christianity, in christianity, we are enjoined to offer our bodies as living sacrifice n d fruit of our lips. I told u , d money we give in church are contributions, whats so dif to udastand?

2. The myriad of insults from the anti-titters

3. This epic post by one of the folks who posted few minutes ago, he said
Jesus NEVER paid tithes because he wasn't a farmer,

the same folks said Jesus was under the law, and functioned under the Mosaic laws before His death, but we now see an exception, He didn't pay tithe because He was not a farmer.

Just go there, it's 31 pages, but worth the read. Forget the shifting of goal post folks are trying to do here from the topic at hand to personal jabs.

https://www.nairaland.com/1456343/tithes-offerings-eternal-principles#18401359

I await your response.

Gombs:
Pheeew. What a thread!

Openmine, you seemed new to this arena, and I say welcome! Certain gladiators here, over the years, have been mute for several reasons, but this thread, is a replica of another that has being long dealt with, devoid of the shameless personal attacks of folks who cannot stay on topic, but show their neonate nature in biblical discussions. I welcome you to this thread, and offer you a new thread for a square discussion, of course making plainer the things joagbaje has been saying since the thread below and many more before it.

In this thread, you will be amazed at the reasoning of some folks; Highlights include

1. Tithes and offerings, Tithe is done with, so is offerings, what we take today in church is called COLLECTIONS. Let me quote one of many

What is this? What we give in worship gathering is 'contribution' NOT offerings. We don't give 'offerings' in worship gathering UNDER THE NT, such was by the law.


Someone then showed where Jesus called these givings as gifts, here was one of the replies

when Jesus made dat statement there was no christianity, only judaism, it was still OT, Christ died gave d perfect offering(his blood) and brought in NT n christianity, in christianity, we are enjoined to offer our bodies as living sacrifice n d fruit of our lips. I told u , d money we give in church are contributions, whats so dif to udastand?

2. The myriad of insults from the anti-titters

3. This epic post by one of the folks who posted few minutes ago, he said
Jesus NEVER paid tithes because he wasn't a farmer,

the same folks said Jesus was under the law, and functioned under the Mosaic laws before His death, but we now see an exception, He didn't pay tithe because He was not a farmer.

Just go there, it's 31 pages, but worth the read. Forget the shifting of goal post folks are trying to do here from the topic at hand to personal jabs.

https://www.nairaland.com/1456343/tithes-offerings-eternal-principles#18401359

I await your response.

My friend Gombs, what is so difficult about mentioning my moniker? You can't be scared to invite me your friend to party na?

Now you're tripping over the fact the Jesus never paid tithes because he was not a farmer!

How about Jesus received gifts or offerings but NEVER collected tithes because he was not a LEVITE or is that confusing to you too?

Or None of the apostles collected tithes because they were not levites

Or the fact that the church NEVER collected tithes until 585AD after the council at Tours decided to go back to mosaic law for sustenance because of the collapse of the Roman empire that had sustained the church after Christianity became official religion? And even then it was strictly agricultural produce like Mosaic law prescribed?

Are you still confused by these assertions my dear friend Gombs?

There are too groups of folks insisting tithing is Christian doctrine. They are

1.The sincerely wrong

2.The criminally inclined.

You my friend are in the first group.

annunaki2:


But there is a difference, the terrorists are actually practising true islam as established by their prophet whilst the thieves and fraudsters in christianity are going contrary to the teachings of christ.

True

4C2215131:


You don't seem to understand me.

Have you seen the movie 'The Exorcist'? The original one, that is part 1 (1973 or so). If you have, there was a scene when a reverend Father asked the possessed girl who was tied to her bed why she couldnt untie herself seeing she claimed she was the devil. She replied (that is the demon/devil in her) by saying that would be too vulgar a display of power. I'm sure you know what that means. My statement was a should I say... parallel.

Kindly forgive my comprehension