Barakallahu fi,
but you have already said this in our earlier days of this discuss. About the hadiths you quoted: firstly- Aisha was matured when the badr war was waged and she was infact living with the Prophet, hence, she was a matured girl which i also agree but mind you Aisha was a female and not male, she is not to engaged in battle but to provide amenity care/aid to the mujaheedun, it is the male who engage in the battle field and henceforth have to attain 15 years of age.


On the issue of the calendary date of the ayah you said aisha was young and when estimated she should have been more than 12, let me see the hadith from the beginning to the end to make my analysis. Thanks, sir, olabowale

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyah al-isti`anah fi al-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:

When we reached Shajarah. It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group traveling toward Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Baab Ghazwi al-nisaa wa qitalihinna ma`a al-rijaal. Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-e-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to save them from any hindrance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitaab al-maghaazi, Baab ghazwah al-khandaq wa hiya al-ahzaab, Arabic. Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."



Let me preclude the nay sayers, those who will say that she is a woman and went for the purpose of nothing else for being companion of the prophet (AS), I need to remind you that the effort of struggle was not kept to the men, alone. The first to die for Islam, a woman was among them in Makka. Nobody ignored her because she was a woman. We see that the Pagan arab women featured prominently in wars, too.

Further if it was because of Muhammad alone, Allah would have given the exclusive statement about it, as was given about his wives wearing Nikab in Surah Azhab. And also talking about his marriages in a special way in the same Azhab. And Allah would never have been shy about it, since He was not shy in Surah Azhab telling the companions not to disturb te Messenger (AS) spending time without any clear reason with him, Finally Alah would have give direction, as to His telling him about his marriage to Zainab to stop adoption in the way it was practiced in preIslam, and also in Surah Abasa talking about his mere turning his face .

Sir olabowale, did you read my penultimate post

Ahadith, again by definition, is what was said by the prophet. Or what was said in his presence and he did not object to or corrected. No one has pointed out the 6 to 9 year old statement by out mother (RA) as a stament said in the presence of the prophet (AS). Hence, was it really an ahadith or a attar (Statement made by companions)? A woman in the field of war will be in danger; even if she was only mending the wounds and providing supplies. Everyone in strategy of war knows that supply is key almost important as the prosecutors, the combatants.

I will not take her role lightly.

olabowale:

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyah al-isti`anah fi al-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:

When we reached Shajarah. It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group traveling toward Badr. A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitaab al-jihaad wa al-siyar, Arabic, Baab Ghazwi al-nisaa wa qitalihinna ma`a al-rijaal. Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-e-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to save them from any hindrance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitaab al-maghaazi, Baab ghazwah al-khandaq wa hiya al-ahzaab, Arabic. Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."



Let me preclude the nay sayers, those who will say that she is a woman and went for the purpose of nothing else for being companion of the prophet (AS), I need to remind you that the effort of struggle was not kept to the men, alone. The first to die for Islam, a woman was among them in Makka. Nobody ignored her because she was a woman. We see that the Pagan arab women featured prominently in wars, too.

Further if it was because of Muhammad alone, Allah would have given the exclusive statement about it, as was given about his wives wearing Nikab in Surah Azhab. And also talking about his marriages in a special way in the same Azhab. And Allah would never have been shy about it, since He was not shy in Surah Azhab telling the companions not to disturb te Messenger (AS) spending time without any clear reason with him, Finally Alah would have give direction, as to His telling him about his marriage to Zainab to stop adoption in the way it was practiced in preIslam, and also in Surah Abasa talking about his mere turning his face .

aisha was not going there as a warrior.
She went to keep mohammed company at night
Isn't that commonsense?

$Osisi: You dont know how to read any more? lol. Sorry. I love you anyways.
I had stated earlier at the bottom of what you closed your eyes to at the end, that Allah would have spoken about it, it was just "keeping her husband warm". You know the answer came to me in the shower before I posted it. Read the bottom part, again. Then read the correspondent verses inSurah Azhab. I know you have been playing with Ali Sina too long. Commot!

Let me preclude the nay sayers, those who will say that she is a woman and went for the purpose of nothing else for being companion of the prophet (AS), I need to remind you that the effort of struggle was not kept to the men, alone. The first to die for Islam, a woman was among them in Makka. Nobody ignored her because she was a woman. We see that the Pagan arab women featured prominently in wars, too.

Further if it was because of Muhammad alone, Allah would have given the exclusive statement about it, as was given about his wives wearing Nikab in Surah Azhab. And also talking about his marriages in a special way in the same Azhab. And Allah would never have been shy about it, since He was not shy in Surah Azhab telling the companions not to disturb te Messenger (AS) spending time without any clear reason with him, Finally Alah would have give direction, as to His telling him about his marriage to Zainab to stop adoption in the way it was practiced in preIslam, and also in Surah Abasa talking about his mere turning his face .

The above answers the below: Read, $Osisi. Its not always about Dollars! LOL.


aisha was not going there as a warrior.
She went to keep mohammed company at night
Isn't that commonsense?

Controversies about the age of Aisha
By Ali Sina

The majority of Muslims agree that Aisha  was only 9 years old when Muhamamad married her. Most Islamic sites make no apology for her young age and accuse the modernists for humbugging the Westerner's morality and denying the truth.
The site Islamonline.com  explains: "It should be noted that in the hot regions, it�s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age" and argues that the marriages of Muhammad were to foster political alliance. This is nonsense. Muhammad married Safiya after murdering her father, torturing to death her husband and massacring her entire tribe. He married Juwariyah after raiding her people, massacring the men and robbing their wealth and taking the women and children as slaves. He took Rayhana, the 15 year old Jewish girl of Bani Quraiza after massacring all them men and boys who had reached puberty of her tribe and took all the women and children as slaves.  With whom he wanted to make alliance? With dead people? What a shameful excuse to defend a war criminal.  What Muhammad did was disgusting but it is just as disgusting when Muslim apologists try to acquit him of his crimes with such a shameless excuses.

As for as Aisha, she was the daughter of Abu Bakr who was already the primary supporter of him. Why he had to rape his little girl? This man was cult leader and hand brainwashed Abu Bakr. That fool would have done anything Muhammad told him to do. When you submit to a cult leader, you submit your intelligence and your conscience.

However there are some �modernist� Muslims who dispute this fact. It is a good thing that they realize what Muhammad did was evil, but it is conning and hypocritical to lie,  hide the facts and twists the truth.
They argue:

(tSource:  http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm)

According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha  (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Aisha  (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha  (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
Answer:
Even if we assume this narrative to be accurate, we have no reason to give it more weight than those that are so detailed about Aisha �s age, describing her, playing with her dolls and with her little friends who hid when Muhammad entered the room,  her memories of playing on the swing when her mother called her and washed her face and took her to Muhammad, her ignorance of what was going on when Muhammad took off his pants and her �surprise� when got into action. These events are more likely to be remembered by child than when a particular Surah was revealed. It is more likely that a person confuse one Surah with the other than confuse all those details of her own life. This site continues:

According to a number of narratives, Aisha  (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Aisha 's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
Answer:
This is a weak excuse. When the Battle of Badr and Ohud occurred Aisha  was 10 to 11 years old. She did not go to be a warier, like the boys. She went to keep Muhammad warm during the nights. Boys who were less than 15 were sent back, but this did not apply to her.    

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Aisha  (ra) was ten years older than Aisha  (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha  (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha  (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
[b]Answe[/b]r:
When someone gets that old, people don�t care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable to the younger folks and 100 is a round figure. Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Aisha  and did not sit to make the calculations and deductions. She was not an important person and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy.  

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Aisha  (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
Answer:

Tabari�s narratives do not have the distinction to be known Sahih. Even if we assume that this narrative is not an honest mistake, there is no reason to discard all those strong, detailed and explicit hadiths that concord with each other and confirm the age of Aisha  was 9 when Muhammad took her to bed. The narrative reported above could very well be an innocent slip on the part of the narrator. People remember important events better than those that are relatively insignificant. The date of the birth of the children of Abu Bakr was not an important subject for Muslims to record. But the details of Muhammad's life and his marriages were important. As you can read in the story of Safiyah's wedding even the kind of food served is recorded.    

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Aisha  (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Aisha  (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Aisha 's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Aisha  (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Answer:
The apologist fails to provide the references to the hadithes that he quotes. In any case this is an error. To understand and accept a religion, one must be at least intelligent enough to make such decision. That is about 15 years old. But let us be generous and say that age is about 12. If Aisha  accepted Islam during the first year of Islam, she must have been 26 years old when Muhammad married her. (12 + 14) Are we then supposed to believe that Aisha at the age of 26 used to play with her dolls and on the swing?

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Aisha  (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Aisha  (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Aisha  (ra). Now, if Aisha  (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Aisha  (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
Answer:
It was an Arab tradition to betroth a girl to a boy even when the girl was a newborn. This tradition is still carried on in many Islamic countries. This is no proof that Aisha  was a grown up.  

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Aisha 's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

Answer:
This explanation is absolutely incorrect. Bikr means virgin and, just as in English is not age specific. In fact Aisha  was the second wife of Muhammad (after Khadijah) but Muhammad did not consummate his marriage with her for three years because she was too young and Abu Bakr begged him to wait. So  he married Sauda bint Zamah, whom he mistreated because she was not pretty.    

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Aisha  (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Aisha  (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
Answer:
Of course this information cannot be taken as correct. If Aisha  was five years older than Fatimah, and Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, then Aisha  was only 30 years younger than the Prophet. So at the time of her marriage when the Prophet was 54, Aisha  must have been 24 yeas old. This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadiths that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, Aisha �s sister, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older that Aisha  and died in 73 Hijra. In that case at the time of Hijra Asma must have been 100 �73 = 27 years old, but according to this Hadith she was 34 years old.

The discrepancy between these two hadiths quoted by the same apologist, demonstrate their inaccuracy. It all goes to show that in those days numbers did not mean much. It is more likely that people were wrong on dates, but events are better remembered. The reports of the tender age of Aisha  is consistent with the stories of her childhood, playing with her toys, her girlfriends hiding when Muhammad entered the room, the Prophet playing with her, her ignorance about sex and her �surprise� when Muhammad came to her. All these hadiths confirm that she was a little girl. Those who deny the facts and try to prove otherwise, demonstrate their embarrassment of the acts of their Prophet. Perhaps they should be credited for having some scruples and for realizing that what he did was despicable, but we cannot praise them for their intellectual honesty for they have none.

The author argues::

It is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

I could not have said it better. Not only marring children was not part of the culture of any nation, it is a actually contrary to human nature. Healthy grownup men do not find little children sexually attractive The point is that Muhammad was not healthy. He was a pedophile, a very sick man.

How he got away with it? He claimed to be a prophet and as such put himself above the scrutiny of mortals. Who dared to question Allah and his messenger? He had control over the life and death of the people in Medina. He acted very much like Jim Jones in his Jonestown in Guyana where he could sleep with any woman he pleased, and like David Korsh in his compound, where he had sex with every woman and even with the teenaged daughters of his followers while prohibiting them to touch their own wives.   People who fall prey to cults do stupid things. They kill others, like the followers of Charles Manson, Shoko Asahara and Muhammad and kill themselves like the followers of Jim Jones, David Koresh or the Heaven's Gate. Islam is a cult and Muhammad was a cult leader.  I have proven this point with evidence in my book Understanding Muhamamd

The apologist concludes.

�In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Aisha  (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.�
Answer:
It may not have been a tradition then but since Muhammad set the example, every pervert pedophile finds justification and validation for taking children as brides and the ignorant parents, who are often poor, let their little girl to be abused for the greed of money.  

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha_age.htm

@Abuzola: InshaAllah, tomorrow we will continue. There are a lot of proofs, in my warchest now.

@$Osisi: I already know where your resources is. It is weak. Allah did not chastise him. Yet when he simply turn his face to another side, he was called out on it. A whole chapter was revealed because of that. Lets assume she was only nine, whats wrong with a female becoming a woman at 9? This will be the way Allah created her. Afterall He created Mary as a virgin to bear a son!

A beg, commot.

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:
For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age:
According to Abd al-Rahman ibn abi zannaad:
Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, pg. 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risala'h, Beirut, 1992)
According to Ibn Kathir:

She [i.e. Asma] was ten years elder to her sister [i.e. Ayesha]. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933)
For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

She [i.e. Asma] witnessed the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy:
She [i.e. Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy, Pg. 654, Arabic, Bab fi al-nisaa, al-Harf al-alif, Lucknow)

olabowale:

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:
For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age:
According to Abd al-Rahman ibn abi zannaad:
Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, pg. 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risala'h, Beirut, 1992)
According to Ibn Kathir:

She [i.e. Asma] was ten years elder to her sister [i.e. Ayesha]. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933)
For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

She [i.e. Asma] witnessed the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933).

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy:
She [i.e. Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaaniy, Pg. 654, Arabic, Bab fi al-nisaa, al-Harf al-alif, Lucknow)

all of that are answered in my link.

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre-Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
All four of his [i.e. Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives - the names of whom we have already mentioned - during the pre-Islamic period. (Tarikh al-umam wa al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, Pg. 50, Arabic, Dar al-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

@$Osisi: before you start arguing like Ali Sina, note that Allah's messenger (as) in his farewell address told Muslims, his followers to carry the message to all people, those who were not present there. Some of the Sahabas left far and wide from that point on. Allah's messenger said that those who are not present may understand the message even more than those who were there. So today we have school of Ahadith, and many more. The muslims of later generations were able to immensed themselves into academia and discoveries were made by following Quran and ahadith. So it will be naive for anyone that something that is not a called ahadith could not make what is called ahadith clearer or go against it.


For example, Quranic verses takes more presidence that ahadith. Infact ahadith can not go against the Quran. This is a way to know if anything called ahadith is truly an ahadith, strong or weak, etc. We also know that ahadith is only from Muhammad AS), and his action, even when not clearly shown in the Quran, can not disagree with it. Aisha  (ra) statemeent was only attributed to her, not an ahadith, by what defines ahadith! Unless some proof can be provided that this was stated in the presence of the Mesenger (AS). The reporter is just one person, who others have questioned his memory in the later days of his life.


@Abuola: If one were to make wudu as it is described in the Quran, based on appropriate conditions, it will be valid for salah.Tayammam is even less than water wudu, and Tayammam is valid.

@$Osisi: What do I need your link for? The link of a person who is not shamed enough to change hi name from Ali? Please comot. If a woman bears Jezebbel and becomes Muslim she has to take a new name. Virginia is okay. If a man becomes a muslim and his name is Paul, he will change it for sure. Mark is okay.

if he left her for 3 years, it is clear that he can leave her for the duration of the wars. Why put somebody you love that much in harm's way, anyway? Yet, he never shy about remembrance of Khadijah in a loving way.

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:

Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Kaa`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old, she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-Isabah fi Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, Pg. 377, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-Haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

Quote:
Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #29 p.115-116 actually says that Fatima was 29 years old when she died (six months after Mohammed), which makes her ten years older than A’isha. So somebody forgot a date somewhere. The authoritative hadiths of Sunan Nasa’i would generally be trusted more than Ibn Hajar, Regardless, though A’isha was younger.

Sina has also refuted the accuracy of the information: But see how he twisted the information of who is older between the two; the statement above said, Fatima (ra), but Ali Sina said that the above writer said Aisha! That liar Sina. THIS IS FOR $oSISI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sina
Of course this information cannot be taken as correct. If Ayesha was five years older than Fatimah, and Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, then Ayesha was only 30 years younger than the Prophet. So at the time of her marriage when the Prophet was 54, Ayesha must have been 24 yeas old. This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadith that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, Ayesha’s sister, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older that Ayesha and died in 73 Hijra. So at the time of Hijra Asma must have been 100 –73 = 27 years old, but according to this Hadith she was 34 years old.

Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

bUT IF WE ACCEPT FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT THAT SHE WAS 9 THERE IS NO PROOF THAT SHE DID NOT REACH PUBERTY; READ THE BELOW:

As mentioned in Sunan Al Tirmizhi (Al Jaami` Al Saheeh, By Imaam Al Tirmizhi)
Abwwab Al nikaah (Topics of Marriage)
Topic 18
Hadeeth No 1115:
, Ahmad and Is-haaq said:
If the orphan girl reaches nine years, was married (by her guardian) and accepted, then the marriage is lawful, and they invoked as argument the hadeeth of Aisha, that the Prophet married her when she was nine years, whereas Aishah said: If the girl reaches nine years, then she has reached puberty, End of quotation from Al Tirmizhi.

Aishah is talking about herself as well as people of her society:
She was married when she was nine, and she decrees that when the girl
reaches that age it means she reached puberty.
One cannot be more explicit than that on the issue.]

Would the hate mongers dare claim now that Aishah DID NOT reach puberty at nine, yet SHE DECREES that this is the age of puberty?

This is another example of how information is suppressed and rational
research is shed aside as long as the hate objectives are served.
Of course, the pretext of ignorance may be attempted: "Oh, the writer didnot know that much detail".

The answer is: Within the requirements of honesty, if you do not know a
subject, then just do not discuss it nor make judgments on it, let alone
pose a if you do know about it, and use that in order to mislead people in
an elaborate hate campaign.

This practice (puberty being the criteria for consummating the marriage) was the norm in that area as well as in other parts of the world.

This practice is still the norm in many countries world-wide (Muslim as well as non-Muslim countries).

The famous classical commentator on the Qur’an, Ibn Kathir, wrote in Al-Bidayya wan-Nihaya: “Asmaa’ died in 73 AH at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister `A'ishah.”

It might be worth noting that pubescence is characterized by the proliferation of sex cells which begins with the menarche, or first menstruation, in girls. Research has noted that the average age at which the menarche begins has been decreasing among Western European girls and apparently among girls of the United States and Canada, as well, since as far back as 1976. What this means is that we should try to avoid generalizations about when menstruation begins; this differs from culture to culture as well as epoch to epoch. If you want to take this further: puberty comes from the Latin word pubertas, which means “adult”. The Qur’an states what means:
*{And when the children among you have attained to puberty, let them seek permission as those before them sought permission; thus does Allah make clear to you His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise}* (An-Nur 24: 59)

It all depends on what one wishes to recognize, the laws of nature or the social laws constructed by man. `A’ishah married willingly under circumstances that supported that marriage, whichever argument one chooses to follow.

In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of `Abdul `Uzza, from whom `Abdullah and `Asmaa’ were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom `Abdur-Rahman and `A’ishah were born. These four were born before Islam.

Looking at `A'ishah's impressions of her early life, we can indeed see that she was born before the Call:

Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshiping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Messenger visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant. When he reached a place called Bark Al-Ghimad, he met Ibn Ad-Daghna, the chief of the Qara tribe, who asked Abu Bakr, “Where are you going?” Abu Bakr said, “My people have turned me out of the country and I would like to tour the world and worship my Lord.” Ibn Ad-Daghna said, “A man like you will not go out, nor will he be turned out, as you help the poor earn their living, keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the disabled (or the dependents), provide guests with food and shelter, and help people during their troubles. I am your protector. So, go back and worship your Lord at your home.”

Ibn Ad-Daghna went along with Abu Bakr and took him to the chiefs of Quraysh saying to them, “A man like Abu Bakr will not go out, nor will he be turned out. Do you turn out a man who helps the poor earn their living, keeps good relations with kith and kin, helps the disabled, provides guests with food and shelter and helps the people during their troubles?” (Al-Bukhari 3: 37 #494)
570 CE: Prophet Muhammad born
595 CE: Married Khadijah, his first wife
610 CE: Received the revelation that led to his Call to Islam
613 CE: Started preaching publicly
615 CE: His daughter Fatimah born
622 CE: Left Makkah for Madinah
623 CE: `A’ishah entered the household of Prophet Muhammad
625 CE: Battle of Uhud

Ibn Sa`d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr (father of `A’ishah) was approached on behalf of the Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that `A’ishah must have been approaching maturity at the time.

Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatimah, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than `A’ishah. This shows that `A’ishah must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.

This is further borne out by the fact that `A’ishah herself is reported to have stated that when the fifty-fourth chapter [i.e., surah] of the Qur’an entitled “The Moon” [Al-Qamar] was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that `A'ishah could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal.

And there is one report in the Tabaqat that `A’ishah was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of `A’ishah took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal. This is while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijrah in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence, there is not the least doubt that `A’isha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage

If you deny the sahih Bukhari hadiths,everything about Islam is then questionable.

@sir olabowale, i guess if we are going to reach an agreement. Firstly, no hadith states she was twenty something, 2ndly, when they were arguing about her 9 yrs old age she didn't deny it but rather made it clear that thats the age of puberty. 3rdly, you have not present any hadith that it is female who have attain 15 that are allowed to go to battle field except of the hadith referring to male. 4thly, bukhari, muslim and Abu dawud the top greatest imam, have lied to us according to you. 5thly why is it that it is her age issue people deny ?. 6thly, are the shiite correct for cursing Imam Bukhari, muslim and Abu dawud as bunch of hypocrites ? Mind you, the shiite use to curse Abubakar, umar, usman and muawiyah in their prayer daily, this is why shiite are considered as herectic. 7th-if these 3 imam hadith are believe to be the most valid now that we observe err why don't we kick all hadiths like the 'TATSINE' muslim sect. 8thly, Hadith weren't collected till after the death of Prophet muhammad, infact he forbids it so that it won't mingle with Quran, it was during Abubakar's caliphate that hadith were collected and he never deny her age.
Masalam

Sunni countries do not ponder on Bukhari, muslim and Abu dawud and tirmdihi hadith, it is the shiite who for long have animosity for the sahabas, wives of the Prophet and the Prophet himself, that it wasn't the duty of Muhammad to say 'GAIB' of what will happen near the end of the world and judgement day but Ali was the right man to do the job. Lets be careful of where we get our arguement, i am sure it is those who disqualify the 3 imams that are trying to discredit them

Abuzola:

@sir olabowale, i guess if we are going to reach an agreement. Firstly, no hadith states she was twenty something, 2ndly, when they were arguing about her 9 yrs old age she didn't deny it but rather made it clear that thats the age of puberty. 3rdly, you have not present any hadith that it is female who have attain 15 that are allowed to go to battle field except of the hadith referring to male. 4thly, bukhari, muslim and Abu dawud the top greatest imam, have lied to us according to you. 5thly why is it that it is her age issue people deny ?. 6thly, are the shiite correct for cursing Imam Bukhari, muslim and Abu dawud as bunch of hypocrites ? Mind you, the shiite use to curse Abubakar, umar, usman and muawiyah in their prayer daily, this is why shiite are considered as herectic. 7th-if these 3 imam hadith are believe to be the most valid now that we observe err why don't we kick all hadiths like the 'TATSINE' muslim sect. 8thly, Hadith weren't collected till after the death of Prophet muhammad, infact he forbids it so that it won't mingle with Quran, it was during Abubakar's caliphate that hadith were collected and he never deny her age.
Masalam

Olabs is simply attempting to do what allah and mohammed did . . . .LYING endlessly to justify previous LIES.

Aisha was 9 years old when mohammed shagged her. . unless and until produce haddiths denouncing this, thou art a LIAR.

@Noetic: THe below is for you to read:

[93.10] And as for him who asks, do not chide (him),

[4.94] O you who believe! when you go to war in Allah's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world's life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do.

If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!" [Holy Qur'an 03:61]

And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. [Holy Qur'an 24:6-7]

Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidence and guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.
Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful. [Holy Qur'an, Al-Baqarah (2):159-160][/size]

Part of the proof that a person is such and such old is to identify the year of the birth. If my mother, for example did not tell me that I was born some 50something years ago (I know my exact date of birth, including the precise time), it may be possible that I claim a certain later year or earlier year, depending where I am and if it serves a beneficial purpose.

Some people here in america will take their children to private school, and inflate the age, so that the child is accepted and attend school. Others may say, at later date that they are younger (the african do this) in order to qualify for this and that.

My argument, innitially was a result of the pedophilia charge(s). Hence I had argued that it was not a possibility that it is the case. So I supported myself even with evidence of the fact that no particular age is designated across the board for all females in this world, in all cultures and generation as age of puberty. There are biological signs, however that serve as evidences, and all do not have to have happened to a person before they can be identified as reaching that age of puberty. For example a person who rarely look down around his or her pelvic area may not notice the presence of hair when it newly appears.It may have been there for a while before noticing it, and may occur earlier than when the voice changed to bassier, deeper, etc, instead of the more punny of the prepuberty. For women, and we have seen that there are even today no marked age for this, except there are the usual signs, and some comes even as early as you can imagine.


All of these been said, we must not forget that Abu Bakr and his wife (RA) will have more accurate information than anyone on earth about when their own chidren were born. What I did not read is that either parents spoke about the ages of their children, or particularly Aisha (RA). I believe that the sira of Abu Bakr will shed more light on the birth, and it will have to be considered releant especially what the family went through after accepting Islam. The ahadith, or statement of Abu Bakr saying that she has been bethroned to Jubair, the pagan, is very germaine, to this argument since he on one hand was keping his promise or his agreement in the contract, and on the other hand indicating that the only way the proposal of prophet Muhammad could be honored is if the pagan completely refused the to go on with the contract. We learn couple of things from this:

Abu Bakr would not have given his daughter aware in marriage to Jubair, unless she was woman enough to handle the wife responsibility. That will have to include sexual intercourse.
Abu Bakr was not capitulating to Muhammad, as per the insinuated statement of the disbelievers, that he could not staned up in anyway by offering objection.
When the contract of Muhammad and Aisha was finally written, that was the second contract on Aisha, the first being from Jubair who renaged.

If anyone therefore was to argue about the underageness of Aisha, one will have to wonder what they thing about the first contract, before tey even consider to critique the second, the second being from Muhammad?

a lawyer friend of mine was arguing yesterday about this issue: he tries sexual cases all the time in New York courts. He remarked that in all the personal and emotional and social characterizations of sexual offenders, not a single one fits Muhammad (AS)! He further stated that biologically, Aisha was a woman, not a girl anymore (by the way many of today;s 20 and 30something women may refer themselves as girls! $Osisi will say she is a girl to me. So will thiefofheart, Pilgrim.1, ~Lady~, etc. Further he argued that the society permitted the relationship. It was practiced then, and somehow still practiced now, even in america. The age for marriage is as low as you may not want to hear it, say in Utah, and the Dakotas, etc.

er father, an aristicrate in the society permitted it and so was her mother. The fact that a contract existed from somebody else before Muhammad's, is evidence enough that nothing was wrong with the contract of Muhammad (AS). Finally she never regretted the marriage and had always good things to say about it, even whenshe was chastised along with other wives, in the Quran. No enemy used this relationship as a weapon against Muhammad (AS).It is any and all of these that we must use to educate ourselves about this special marriage.

For me, Alhamdulillah, I have no problem with whatever the Prophet did. I had said that before and I am not an apologist or a liar, as Noetic have said. There is nothing wrong with it, as the Makkan all agreed with it. I Olabowale, if I find an attractive and matured 18 year old woman, who is eager to marry, and I am available for her, do you think I will let her go? No. If she is halal and ready, there is no problem in my mind. Every society have their own moral codes. My is determined by the soiety that I live in, in this time, as long as it does not go against Islam, the code that I will live by always, as soon as I know it!

Abuzola:

@sir olabowale, i guess if we are going to reach an agreement. Firstly, no hadith states she was twenty something, 2ndly, when they were arguing about her 9 yrs old age she didn't deny it but rather made it clear that thats the age of puberty. 3rdly, you have not present any hadith that it is female who have attain 15 that are allowed to go to battle field except of the hadith referring to male. 4thly, bukhari, muslim and Abu dawud the top greatest imam, have lied to us according to you. 5thly why is it that it is her age issue people deny ?. 6thly, are the shiite correct for cursing Imam Bukhari, muslim and Abu dawud as bunch of hypocrites ? Mind you, the shiite use to curse Abubakar, umar, usman and muawiyah in their prayer daily, this is why shiite are considered as herectic. 7th-if these 3 imam hadith are believe to be the most valid now that we observe err why don't we kick all hadiths like the 'TATSINE' muslim sect. 8thly, Hadith weren't collected till after the death of Prophet muhammad, infact he forbids it so that it won't mingle with Quran, it was during Abubakar's caliphate that hadith were collected and he never deny her age.
Masalam

@abusola,
None of hadiths collectors never proof themself infallible and Hadith will never be a substitute to Quran. Imam Buhari collected over 600,000 traditions in which about 7,000 regarded as authentic. Abu'dawood, Muslim,Tirmidhi all collected thousands of traditions in which all were subjected to several scrutiny. In each hadith many names were involved in the chain of transmission, some which were accepted and many denied and consquently deduced some hadiths as fabricated. The essence of this claim was not to proof Aisha wasn't nine or refering Aisha as a liar, however I see no ingenuity if people could bring up an analytical approach refering to historical reference from muslims and non muslims sources to proof her age then. When you read the biography of prophet Muhammad from different authors you will understand what I mean. In some instances with much aclaimed authentic references, you will see differences. To clarify my point, Aisha'a age was never an issue to then contemporary pagan arab, it is so much more recently complicated when propapagndist want to mock Islam. May almighty Allah forgives us all

@ ustaz olabowale,
May almighty Allah increase you in knowledge and wisdom. Your contribution here is highly appreciated. We will never be perfect at all times and people may never subject to all our verdict or oppinions. We pray to Allah to accept this as an act of Ibadah forgive us all our shortcomings and finally grant us paradise in return.

Smile, true talk, but do you take the hadith of giving aisha to jubair as authentic ? I see that hadith as weak and Do'if, is it from bukhari or muslim?

noetic2:


Olabs is simply attempting to do what allah and mohammed did . . .  .LYING endlessly to justify previous LIES.

Aisha was 9 years old when mohammed shagged her. . unless and until  produce haddiths denouncing this, thou art a LIAR.

@neotic
In your own sense, I belief you are no longer a kid. If you belief Aisha was nine bride in the climat of Arabia then and the truth of it is too heavy for you to bear. prophet Muhammad(PBH) had other wifes, even first wife was as old as 25 years older than him. That one is not an issue and not attacking your senses. Look arround, engage in relation with someone older than you, at least take sample of khadija! I belief you will not, otherwise contemplating scatering fire crackers on every Islamic thread.

@abusola
Hadith was not immediately collected after prophet demise. It took a century afterwards. And it another centuries for scrutiny. I have once try to argue an hadith from sahii Bukahri with my immediate ustaz, from all essence he clarify something which I personllay worked on. Going through the works of any most respected scholars. They never claimed any infallible, so the Imam Al-bukhari, Tirmzi,muslim and the rest and that is why thier work was scrutinzed. There are still many and uncountable which was not reference in thier collections.

Abuzola:

Smile, true talk, but do you take the hadith of giving aisha to jubair as authentic ? I see that hadith as weak and Do'if, is it from bukhari or muslim?

Grouping hadiths as shahii, doif is by following some lay down rules which does not applicable in some islamic legal codes which mostly proclaimed much of its ref from Quran only. I wouldn't classify this hadith whether doif or authentic, I would submit to the verdict of hadith scholars. However, it is a proof out of many very much referenced in miskhat masbhi of Imam Waliu-Deen Muhammad. The same way I will look upon ibn Ishaq biography of prophet Muhammad with true and false collections. The controversy generated when age was mention in the other hadith, what I belief and well aquainted with Rosululah did not against Quran, secondly, there was no record of any extreme category of Aisha's age when married as barbaric.

olabowale:

@Noetic: THe below is for you to read:

[93.10] And as for him who asks, do not chide (him),

[4.94] O you who believe! when you go to war in Allah's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world's life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do.

If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!" [Holy Qur'an 03:61]

And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. [Holy Qur'an 24:6-7]

Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidence and guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.
Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful. [Holy Qur'an, Al-Baqarah (2):159-160][/size]

what has the above got to do with the facts that a 56 year old mohammed slept with a 9 year old aisha?
what has that got to do with the fact that 37 haddiths confirm this paedophilia act of mohammed?

littleb:

@neotic
In your own sense, I belief you are no longer a kid. If you belief Aisha was nine bride in the climat of Arabia then and the truth of it is too heavy for you to bear. prophet Muhammad(PBH) had other wifes, even first wife was as old as 25 years older than him. That one is not an issue and not attacking your senses. Look arround, engage in relation with someone older than you, at least take sample of khadija! I belief you will not, otherwise contemplating scatering fire crackers on every Islamic thread.

ur lack of intelligence does not amuse me any more. . . . .but I ask. . .What EXACTLY is the point u are trying to make?