Kog45:
I know Iheanacho w be a scapegoat for Shakespeare's sack just like Musa a scapegoat for Ranieri's sack.

How I wish Nacho go back to man city and be warming bench,at least he w be playing in league cup or FA cup,better to warm bench at man city than a team like Leicester.

It seems thegoodjoe was right telling everybody that Nacho should stay put at man city and fight for his place.

I don't know if it's possible to seek out for loan coz not active before WC w affect his confidence just like it affected Mikel at 2014 WC.

I feel for the boy shaa..

From grace to grass

Goke7:
Some lessons so far on our failed world cup attempts from responses so far include

1. Stick to the coach that qualifies you for the world cup cos you you need that strong bond between the coach and the players who have been working tirelessly together.
2. Do not discard half or majority of the players that qualified you for the world cup as it affects team spirit and you end up with players in the world cup who are strange bed fellows. Case in point keshi despite qualifying for the world cup and going to the world cup ended up with players who were not really used to each other. This may be the reason Mikel rejected the inclusion of ramon azeez in the game against France.
3. Go with at least 90% of your players who qualified you for the world cup. case in point USA 94 team. If you must bring in new players, very very few.
4. Nff need to sort out issues of bonus and players welfare on time. I heard before the end of this year, Nff will meet with the players to tell them how much they will earn during the world cup next year. Good one I must say.
5. Quality warm up games for the team, perhaps warm up games against Germany and Yugoslavia brought out the best of Nigeria against Spain in France 98.

Update
6. We must check over confidence from the players, case in point is one of the reasons we lost the Denmark game in 1998 as the players were already thinking about brazil when they haven't finished with Denmark
7. We must check players who tend to be selfish in the game, result against argentina in the 2010 world cup would have been different if the likes of martins were not selfish in their play. Okocha was another culprit in past world cups. Victor Moses need to be checked on this. Players in better position must be given the ball for clinical finishes in front of goal like we saw against zambia with Iwobi's goal. This could decide games.
8. Team selection must be based on those who are hungry for the team success and not those who just want to appear as some big players have failed to turn up on the big occasions, e.g. Yekini of blessed memory and Okocha.
Update
9. Good mix of youthful and experienced players. One of the reasons we failed in the 2002 world cup was the way we discarded experienced players who were still in form and hungry. Thank God Rohr had admitted that it was the mix of young and experienced players that achieved qualification. So those who feel the likes of Mikel, musa, onazi, echiejile even omeruo are not relevant may need to have a rethink. One advantage of the crop of young players we have now like iwobi, iheanacho, ekong and co is that by the next world cup, they will be very experienced players.
10. Updated FIFA rules must be understood by players and coaches to avoid naive situations. Reason we even failed to qualify in 2006 as we knew nothing about head to head rule. This also showed in 1994

Goke7:


selfish play is another interesting point am beginning to see here as one of the reasons for our previous world cup woes. Someone need to speak with victor moses fast. he is a good culprit here

Yep Victor Moses and Onyekuru(if he makes the squad) are the main culprits.

safarigirl:
what was that you said? Luck?

That's how they got to the Round of 16, not because anyone was exceptional. They were just lucky

You catch am! Kpom. That team from first eleven to the bench was bad, some posted fair performances but as a team they were bad. Mikel, Moses though stood out for their lacklustre performances cos much was expected from them.

Goke7:


Pls can we keep all these small children news away for now, we de yan mature football things for now, when we are talking about u-17, then we can yan this kind of news but for now, keep these small children away abeg

I tire. Let him grow up firstly before we begin paying attention.

soetanoreoluwa:


Okay. I will search for it

Conflicting news on how mikel voted. nawa. the ones ive seen said he chose ororo 1st.

OMANBALA1:
So many factors contribute to a good outing at the world cup. Having wonderful players is not enough to win you the world no matter how star studded. Spain,Holland and Argentina are some good example.

In 1994

We had a monstrous squad that couldnt go past second round and why did not they. Inexperience and lack of focus was our downfall. At the world cup every second counts and there is no room for mistakes.

In 1998
We changed coach soon after the qualifier and we brought alot of players at the last days of their carreer AND again LACK of Focus played a part. We need to understand that world cup is not club football...We must fight with all our might else hungrier countries like Brazil,Germany and France will keep winning.

In 2002
We had Sodje,Ogbeche,Justice Christopher(an excellent DM but wrong stage to start off) and most of our top stars were not around anymore...Oliseh,Amokachi,Amunike,Finidi and co were all missing and we had a depleted team. Cant do much with that.

In 2010

We were still going through a drought and our top players were Obasi,Aiyegbeni, and Kalu Uche then we had a Kaita who had temper problem. It was a world cup good as forgotten.

In 2014

We were at the height of our misery and things couldnt be worse.

Finally,my point is that having wonderful players is not a guarantee for a good outing. Good players +Good management/coach+stability + preparedness all play a major part. Now ,we are getting everything right except we are not ready or prepared.

U are right,honestly only US 94 would serve as a good example for this team,nothing more coz they had s good preparation despite losing all their friendly matches.

edi287:

Mikel disappointed. No need to rope the whole team into it.

Yes the team was poor. Doesn't mean some didn't post good performances but if we judge them as a team, we'd see that that team was watery. Mikel more so.

I have said it times without numbers here ,Victor Moses's biggest failure in Nigerian jersey is his selfish play but guess what NIGGA doesnt do that in his club. He do it with super eagles because we know he will get away with it.

reporting for duty boss! ok here goes for 1994 i would say the preparations were excellent. we played some good friendlies in the lead up to the tournament. our squad selection was excellent and in my opinion still the best of the 5 times we have participation. if i'm being hyper critical i think dropping nduka ugbade for emenalo and also taking efan ekoku who in hindsight didn't do much was a small low point. nfa as they were called then largely behaved themselves. i think we could have gone farther than the second round we did in 1994 but a combination of lack of tournament experience, naivety on the part of coaches and players plus little player indiscipline both on and off field led to our ouster

1998 was a shameful show of indiscipline from both the fa and players. fa started it by firing trousseir who brought some discipline and team play and bora milutinovic who barely knew the players and could barely impose himself on the players. squad selection was ok but a lot of sentiments were involved. for instance taking an injured amokachi in place akpoborie who was fit and playing well for stuttgart was a really poor decision. our first XI wasn't too bad but the bench were mostly retired or semi-retired guys who couldn't do much. after our surprising victory over spain in the first game the players became arrogant and conceited which largely led to us being knocked out

2002 again the nfa brought confusion by sacking amodu and co so close to the world cup. squad selection was largely poor because the fa exiled key first team players in a knee jerk reaction to our poor AFCON showing. the replacements were either not good enough or not matured or experienced enough. that said our group was pretty tough sweden, england, argentina and even argentina was knocked out

2010 was just a coming together of every bad decision we had in the past world cups. sacking amodu just before the world cup, player indiscipline and in fighting, nff sports ministry cold war, not the best squad selection, naivety inexperience infact excuse my language but it was just a cluster f**k of everything bad that could have happened happened. that experience should be used as an eternal example of what not to do

2014 nff largely was ok but still that lingering cold war with sports ministry and coach keshi. poor squad selection basically no bench, inexplicably we left our best or better legs behind. i think keshi did his best to squeeze out some good performances from the squad but we were just not good enough. player indiscipline again onfield/off field affected us

going into next years world cup, nff and sports ministry should be on best of terms, squad selection should not be a drastic change from what we currently have but an addition of 4-5 players who will improve the team, as much as possible sentiments should be avoided in players selection. money issues should be sorted out and agreed way before the world cup in russia. players should continue to be united and level headed. we pray for a good draw and luck to see us through

Icon4s:
Goke7 and realpoacher's posts just sparked some thing off my mind.

Can we do an x-ray of reasons for our failures in our last 5 participations?

Best way to solving a problem is actually to get to the root of the problem.

We as fans will not play for the Super Eagles in Russia. We are not part of the coaching crew. But we can make our own contributions by profiling the reasons for our 5 previous failures to go beyond the second round of the world cup.

As I have always said here, do not underestimate the contributions we make here. They go very far.
To be honest , some times, I feel Rohr and his crew get some things from here because we have seen things play out severally after we discuss them here.
Plus I know a couple of officials visit here. Eg Amuneke's U17 media officer and Siasia's late U23 media officer.

Most of us here know the history of Super Eagles participation and performances better than Rohr. So he may just learn a thing or two from us.

I expect opinions and counter opinions. All the same we can keep the discussion or arguments constructive.

To discuss this issue I need enough elders in the house as we may need to go back in time to address issues even from 1990 when Westerhof took over.
The younger generation too can equally contribute as a lot of those old games are available on YouTube.

enomakos, Kog45, forgiveness, tbaba1234, TheGoodJoe, Goldfish80, Michael2, Joseph1013, joebie, komekn, safarigirl, mujtahida, terzurum5, icon79, do4luv14, omanbala1, Chriskel, Chrisoblog, Orkpekyandega, Humility017, elyte89, Dedebanky85, soetanoreoluwa and many others.

It must not be in any order. Discuss any one you followed from 2014 to 1994.

Goke7:

please after some days, let's collate all these points under different headings and probably loaded them to nff's social media pages. we can't afford another world cup failure. Ghana has been to the world cup thrice but have a quarter final finish to show for it, Senegal only once and they are quarter finalist and if this present Senegalese team qualify, they have enough quality to do well at the mundial. This is our sixth appearance and we can't just go and make up the numbers. I don't care which group we are, if senegal could do it against a Zindane led France at 2002, then why not Nigeria.

Highly seconded. And maybe send it as a feature article to any of the national dailies or sports blogs.

OMANBALA1:
I have said it times without numbers here ,Victor Moses's biggest failure in Nigerian jersey is his selfish play but guess what NIGGA doesnt do that in his club. He do it with super eagles because we know he will get away with it.

The coach need to sort this out fast if not hmmmmmm, love the guy but he must learn to release his ball to even reduce injuries for himself.

Someone need to tell moses that this is why okocha couldn't even win african footballer of the year!

Mickael2:



do you mean in a SE jersey? Because if you mean overall then I have seen a lot of his games in the NPFL

In the Super Eagles Jersey.

Kog45:
U are right,honestly only US 94 would serve as a good example for this team,nothing more coz they had s good preparation despite losing all their friendly matches.

The closest we have ever been to that 1994 squad is now but we dont have a team yet. In that 1994 squad didnt have weak links like Echiejile,Onazi,Moses Simon. Every player was lit as fuucck. But we can get there with serious preparations and hoping players like Ekong,Echiejile and Moses Simon get it together or get replaced. AGAIN,WORLD CUP IS NOT A PLACE YOU GO WITH HALF- STRENGTHENED .

Super Eagles tracking La Liga new sensation Francis Uzoho – Alloy Agu




Francis Odinaka Uzoho in action for Deportivo la Coruna
World Cup-bound Super Eagles are closely following the progress of teenaged goalkeeper Francis Uzoho in the Spanish la Liga, according to goalkeeper trainer Alloy Agu.


Last night, Uzoho, who will be 19 by the weekend, played his second game for Deportivo La Coruna at home against Girona.


His club fell 2-1 in front of their own fans, but the former Golden Eaglets shot stopper pulled off at least four big saves.


Eagles trainer Alloy Agu has now revealed they are keeping close tabs on the youngster.


“We are watching, we hope he continues to do well at top level,” the former Eagles goalkeeper and skipper disclosed.


He has already said current form will be the major consideration in picking the goalkeepers for next year’s World Cup in Russia.

http://scorenigeria.com.ng/2017/10/24/super-eagles-tracking-la-liga-new-sensation-francis-uzoho-alloy-agu/

Goke7:


The coach need to sort this out fast if not hmmmmmm, love the guy but he must learn to release his ball to even reduce injuries for himself.

Someone need to tell moses that this is why okocha couldn't even win african footballer of the year!

Yes,Okocha dribbled himself to absolute nothingness. Victor Moses will be more infuencial if he can release the ball on time....I hate selfish players.

Icon4s:


You have started doing the good job already by collating all the points. Just keep updating as we contribute. We will get to publish it somewhere.
The NFF, Rohr and his crew MUST see it.

Nigerian football must move forward. Enough of the same mistakes, the same results every world cup.

Yes Baba Icon4s we have to push this beyond this our space. The ministry must move to the permanent site ooo. Not going round the bend of participation like before as Goke7 has pointed out cos that was even one thing the Zambians were yabbing us with: that we are perennial underachievers. I felt bad.

I wont lie to you, there's something incredibly wonderful about our team doing well, its power to lift the mood of the nation is without measure. I swear I was still feeling euphoric after the Nigerian /Zambian match. Used to watch that goal before going to bed three nights afterwards. E really sweet me. We've qualified for other World Cups but I felt so beautiful after this one. I still remember that after our last match against Ethiopia here in Nigeria I didn't feel so ecstatic as these.

Kog45:
I know Iheanacho w be a scapegoat for Shakespeare's sack just like Musa a scapegoat for Ranieri's sack.

How I wish Nacho go back to man city and be warming bench,at least he w be playing in league cup or FA cup,better to warm bench at man city than a team like Leicester.

It seems thegoodjoe was right telling everybody that Nacho should stay put at man city and fight for his place.

I don't know if it's possible to seek out for loan coz not active before WC w affect his confidence just like it affected Mikel at 2014 WC.

He should go back to City and resume warming bench. At age 21? A player rated to be a " future world beater"? A player projected to be better than Nwankwo Kanu, A player that was said to be in a class of his own.

At 21: Kanu Nwankwo had won the UEFA Champions league with Ajax (at age 19), not as a bench warmer but as a strike pertner to Patrick Kliuvert. He had won the Olympic gold medal (at age 20). This was the age he was diagnosed of a heart disease while at Intermilan.

at 21: Obafemi Martins already broke into the Inter Milan senior squad. He played for inter in the final of UEFA champions league scoring in the winning goal in the semi final against AC Milan

At 21: John Utaka was painting French league one red. Emerging the highest scoring African in a league that is blessed with numerous talented Senegalese, Ivorian and Malian players. Note that Didier Drogba was also in that league at that time.

At 21, Yakubu Ayegbeni was banging in goals in Europe for Maccabi Haifa.

At 21 Victor Moses was snapped by Chelsea from Wigan where he had a blistering season.

Some of you may attack me for this analysis. But the truth must be said that Iheanacho has fallen far short of expectations. He seems to be an excess luggage at Lowly Leicester presently. He was bought only to be find out that he wasn't needed in the first place.

I feel for the boy. He may just spend one season with Leicester or end up like Musa who we often forgot is an EPL player.

At Icons4s, OMANBALA1 is on caps...daalu

Any lesson learnt in previous world cup disappointment? None! Amodu of blessed memory should have taken us to at least one world cup but for NFF's greed and fan's love for 'sexy' football. Even with his impressive win ratio and a bronze medal at AFCON, fan's wanted a coach with an attacking style of play and the corrupt NFF buoyed by this didn't hesitate in shopping for a foreign coach with behind the scene kickback (as exposed by Englishman, Erickson).

Probably, after few friendlies, the story of how Rhor is not technically adept and the need for a technically savvy coach will surface. Thankfully, there's no AFCON next year, so some of us can counter with: 'it's just a friendly'.

Kelechi with his bad first touch will not achieve anything. Dude cant keep ball for a second. Always looking for tap-ins. Dude is not a striker and he needs to start playing to his strength. Kelechi is a build up player with an eye for goal and he needs to do more of what he is good at. stop waiting for tap ins and drop deep and play with the midfielders and wingers so the coach can see your strength.

Goke7:
Some lessons so far on our failed world cup attempts from responses so far include

1. Stick to the coach that qualifies you for the world cup cos you you need that strong bond between the coach and the players who have been working tirelessly together.
2. Do not discard half or majority of the players that qualified you for the world cup as it affects team spirit and you end up with players in the world cup who are strange bed fellows. Case in point keshi despite qualifying for the world cup and going to the world cup ended up with players who were not really used to each other. This may be the reason Mikel rejected the inclusion of ramon azeez in the game against France.
3. Go with at least 90% of your players who qualified you for the world cup. case in point USA 94 team. If you must bring in new players, very very few.
4. Nff need to sort out issues of bonus and players welfare on time. I heard before the end of this year, Nff will meet with the players to tell them how much they will earn during the world cup next year. Good one I must say.
5. Quality warm up games for the team, perhaps warm up games against Germany and Yugoslavia brought out the best of Nigeria against Spain in France 98.

I disagree with 3. 90% is too high... Instead, go with the core of the team that won the ticket. 70-75 percent is good enough as long as the most important players are there.

Rohr's team is fairly new. The USA 94 team took years to grow and we had seen all the players play. We knew what everyone could offer. We knew what Agu, Wilfred and Rufai could offer. We had already seen them several times. Right now, we do not know what an Alampasu or Ajiboye can offer.

There is still question marks over some players in Rohr's set-up especially those on the bench. Nwakeame, Ogu, Alampasu, Agbo, Ebuehi, etc.. Even players like Musa and Omeruo have question marks.

In USA 94, we were coming off the back of a nations cup triumph, the team was settled.. It is not the same here.

OMANBALA1:
So many factors contribute to a good outing at the world cup. Having wonderful players is not enough to win you the world no matter how star studded. Spain,Holland and Argentina are some good example.

In 1994

We had a monstrous squad that couldnt go past second round and why did not they. Inexperience and lack of focus was our downfall. At the world cup every second counts and there is no room for mistakes.

In 1998
We changed coach soon after the qualifier and we brought alot of players at the last days of their carreer AND again LACK of Focus played a part. We need to understand that world cup is not club football...We must fight with all our might else hungrier countries like Brazil,Germany and France will keep winning.

In 2002
We had Sodje,Ogbeche,Justice Christopher(an excellent DM but wrong stage to start off) and most of our top stars were not around anymore...Oliseh,Amokachi,Amunike,Finidi and co were all missing and we had a depleted team. Cant do much with that.

In 2010

We were still going through a drought and our top players were Obasi,Aiyegbeni, and Kalu Uche then we had a Kaita who had temper problem. It was a world cup good as forgotten.

In 2014

We were at the height of our misery and things couldnt be worse.

Finally,my point is that having wonderful players is not a guarantee for a good outing. Good players +Good management/coach+stability + preparedness all play a major part. Now ,we are getting everything right except we are not ready or prepared.

I was enjoying you until your last sentence. Please how are we not ready or prepared? We have a dead rubber match against Algeria, a top notch friendly (some even feel it's coming too early) against Argentina. In fact Qualifiers have not yet ended. I think we are on track. We just need to draw out a road to Russia map(and the NFF has said they will do and make it public)

krattoss:
I feel for the boy shaa..

From grace to grass

Not yet. Just a rough patch. But I hate how foreign clubs change a players position from what they are naturally suited for. Mikel survived it because he was immensely talented. It's not that a player will not play other positions but let him be established in his natural position first and then he can combine his experience, football intelligence and talent to thrive in any other position.

Icon4s:


Hahaha, na to dey buy players like clubs na him e go finally turn to.

Let's start by bidding for Tammy Abraham. When them pass next year budget we go for Lookman and any other. (Somebody is expecting me to mention Solanke, Hahahaha)

as in. It will make a mockery of International football. If we have to technically 'buy' players from other countries, they should kuku removfeghe whole idea of player nationality so you won't have to be from a country or linked to it to play for them

We can place bids for Asensio and Moussa Dembele

tbaba1234:


I disagree with 3. 90% is too high... Instead, go with the core of the team that won the ticket. 70-75 percent is good enough as long as the most important players are there.

Rohr's team is fairly new. The USA 94 team took years to grow and we had seen all the players play. We knew what everyone could offer. We knew what Agu, Wilfred and Rufai could offer. We had already seen them several times. Right now, we do not know what an Alampasu or Ajiboye can offer.

There is still question marks over some players in Rohr's set-up especially those on the bench. Nwakeame, Ogu, Alampasu, Agbo, Ebuehi, etc.. Even players like Musa and Omeruo have question marks.

In USA 94, we were coming off the back of a nations cup triumph, the team was settled.. It is not the same here.

Have we not be shuffling players before every world cup and end up with woeful results? why continue with what is not working. Where are the players that are truly better than what we have now, yes question marks on some current players but who are the players replacing them? Kids that have just made one or two senior appearances for their clubs? Abeg o.

OMANBALA1:
I have said it times without numbers here ,Victor Moses's biggest failure in Nigerian jersey is his selfish play but guess what NIGGA doesnt do that in his club. He do it with super eagles because we know he will get away with it.

You know sometimes we just talk and then if it is examined it doesn't pan out with our assertion. Granted VicMo can be selfish and has been so in times past but pray examine him from the first match he featured in against Algeria to the last against Zambia and tell me how he was selfish?

Against Algeria he wanted to even pass the ball to Iheanacho but the ball struck the foot of an Algerian defender and came back to him and he slotted home.
Against Cameroon apart from scoring (initiated by Mikel to VicMo, he ran, dribbled cameroun players, passed to Simon and scored from the square play by Simon) he initiated the last goal with a flick.
Against Cameroon in the second leg I can't recall how he was selfish.
Against Zambia in the last match, his runs though were not as effective as they used to be yet he created good opportunities for Ighalo in both halves and his runs created the panic for the goal.

Why we failed at the 2002 WC.

1. Change of coaching crew. We made this mistake in 1998 we did not learn.
Thank God we are not doing that this time. NFF don't try it o.

2. Axing of Senior players by the coach in collaboration with the NFA.
Lesson to those that want experienced players like Echiejile and Onazi out of the team

3. Parading too many inexperienced players plus some players only took part in one or two friendlies. Batholomew Ogbeche, Femi Opabunmi, Justice Christopher, Efe Sodje. They were not tested but were trusted and lo they failed us.
What happened to their careers after that World cup?
Lesson, every player that will make the next world cup squad be tested and trusted.

4. Lack of tactical inputs to games. Onigbinde sat on the bench with his hands under his chin in all the 3 games irrespective of how the games were progressing. He never got up for once to shout instructions to the boys. When asked he said he had already told them what to do from the dressing room. Is it that he didn't understand that game dynamics change and you could switch formation to counter or to follow these changes in dynamics? And that you can do this by passing instructions by voice or by hand signals?
Rohr is a very active coach we have no worries about that. Although I think Rohr needs a special tactician even if it is just for the world cup. Eg Westerhof had Jo Bonfere.

5. That 'up NEPA' jersey. Commentators could not even read the numbers and names on the jerseys as the Lemon green over shadowed the white prints on it. Some press men even mentioned that players found it difficult distinguishing some of their key players that they needed to get more involved in the game. Funny but could be possible.
Lesson learnt: The NFF should give us one very fine nice Jersey.

Goke7:

Have we not be shuffling players before every world cup and end up with woeful results? why continue with what is not working. Where are the players that are truly better than what we have now, yes question marks on some current players but who are the players replacing them? Kids that have just made one or two senior appearances for their clubs? Abeg o.

We do not need to transform the team. We already know the first 11 and the regular subs. However, We need to ensure that everyone is chosen on merit. You can not just pick an imaginary % of those who should make it because they were part of the campaign but contributed nothing on the pitch.

There are players on the fringes who can be of more value. Onyekuru, Esiti, Kayode, Uzoho, etc... These players should get their shot to prove themselves.

safarigirl:
as in. It will make a mockery of International football. If we have to technically 'buy' players from other countries, they should kuku removfeghe whole idea of player nationality so you won't have to be from a country or linked to it to play for them

We can place bids for Asensio and Moussa Dembele

Loz....

Mujtahida:

You know sometimes we just talk and then if it is examined it doesn't pan out with our assertion. Granted VicMo can be selfish and has been so in times past but pray examine him from the first match he featured in against Algeria to the last against Zambia and tell me how he was selfish?

Against Algeria he wanted to even pass the ball to Iheanacho but the ball struck the foot of an Algerian defender and came back to him and he slotted home.
Against Cameroon apart from scoring (initiated by Mikel to VicMo, he ran, dribbled cameroun players, passed to Simon and scored from the square play by Simon) he initiated the last goal with a flick.
Against Cameroon in the second leg I can't recall how he was selfish.
Against Zambia in the last match, his runs though were not as effective as they used to be yet he created good opportunities for Ighalo in both halves and his runs created the panic for the goal.

couldn't have said better...although the guy dribbles but tagging him "selfish " isan overstatement. ..
If he is selfish,how them will u describe the likes of ronaldinho,neymar jnr,

tbaba1234:


We do not need to transform the team. We already know the first 11 and the regular subs. However, We need to ensure that everyone is chosen on merit. You can not just pick an imaginary % of those who should make it because they were part of the campaign but contributed nothing on the pitch.

There are players on the fringes who can be of more value. Onyekuru, Esiti, Kayode, Uzoho, etc... These players should get their shot to prove themselves.

Kayode and onyekuru are already part of this team having been invited recently so who remain?, how many times have uzoho appeared for his club senior side before someone will tell me he should replace ezenwa, na so super eagles cheap?