Sunni vs Wahabi | UNEDITED DEBATE | Is seeking help from the Prophet ‎ﷺ Shirk?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYRKuquV7_M&feature=youtu.be

Ma sha Allah.Jazak'Allahu khair akhi, for this video. Excellent.

# Sheik Asrar Rashid did excellently well though there were one or two digressions which he doesn't really need at all. I enjoyed his definition of isthighatha well. He seem to have the best definition as per authentic evidences.

# Ustaz Abd al-Rahman Hassan, blah blah blah is too much. He never addressed any of the fundamental points of the debate. He lump too many unnecessary things together.

Those are my opinions anyway.

Empiree, Sino, lanreylan, lanrexlan, kazlaw2000, Rilwayne001, Newnas et al kindly watch the video its civil. I applaud the moderators. Excellent job.

Watching.....

I think the title should have been more fair. We all know what "Wahhabi" means to many people today. "Sunni vs. Wahhabi" is not necessary. It's a debate for a reason... so putting Sunni vs. Wahhabi is already an attempt to put the other party down.

Perhaps, the title should have been something like this:

"isthighatha, permissible or not?"

Still watching...........

Alhamdulilah. Watched the whole debate. Both sides gave their best shot. However, Shaykh Asrar Rashid was slow in bringing out LOTS more evidences until his last turn. He really fired up and I like that.

In the same instance, Ustadh Abdul Rahman Hassan also fired up with evidences especially in his last turn. Shaykh Asrar Rashid OBVIOUSLY did not agree to calling on and asking the prophet to provide xyz. He believes Allah does that. And that should be every muslims aqeeda.

Far as I am concerned, isthighatha is allowed with question mark. It is also an option (mutahab). I can only support it IF it is properly coordinated because many ignorant folks are bound to exceed the limit which is apparent today. We cant just dismiss isthighatha without in dept explanation. It is DEFINITELY not Shirk as I understood it. Allah Himself permitted it. If He did, who the heck is us to say otherwise.

In order to make fancy point, which is where albaqr seems to have problem with him, Ustadh Abdul Rahman Hassan lumped the whole idea of isthighatha around shia, knowing fully well that would give him CREDIT. I definitely disagree with Albaqir when he said Ustadh Rahman talks bla bla bla. No, he made very valid points that I can agree with evidences from Qur'an. The thing is, he may not fully understand isthighatha.

Sheik Rabiu Adebayo once talked about isthighatha, and he cited Ulama of a country who go against it and even considered it shirk but Allah showed them "pepper". Sheikh refused to mention country's name for privacy reason. Lastly, the group from Shaykh Asrar Rashid messed up the debate in the end when the other group shouted "Allahu Akbar", they shouted "Ya rosululah". That's a clear cut wrong message to viewers. When the other side shouted Allahu Akbar, you do the same. Period

Allah is indeed Al-Akbar. NONE ELSE!

^Empiree, your assumptions are too much. If I say the Salafi guy is just blah blah blah, did I meant his accusations of Shi'a? Even Asrar is against Shi'a too. I only wonder how you think sometimes.

# The Salafi Ustaz started is blah blah (to make cheap point) by saying "those on this side (reference to himself and his cult) advocate to call Allah alone, and those on this side (reference to Asrar) say call upon other than Allah".
That is very silly. Asrar made clear definition out of the meaning of Isthighatha and the Salafi guy confirmed isthighatha (as halal) "during the lifetime of the Prophet and on Qiyamat".

# He made fruitless efforts (blah blah blah) to weaken some of the ahadith submitted by Asrar

# He falsely attributed his Salafiyah to al-Hafiz ibn Hajar al-Asqalani. That is outrageous.

# He falsely attributed the concept of isthighatha to a "Shia" but the Sheik was NEVER a Shia. I dare him proving it.

# He tried to established a part of Tawheed for the Mushriqun (liken Muslims who practice isthighatha to them). Alhamdulillah Asrar affirmed if you believe in a part of Tawheed and not the other, it negates each other. Mushriqun is Mushroqun.

# He erroneously or mistakenly or pretend (just to make cheap point) to disregard Hayat Barzakhi and blindly arguing that Asrar "do not believe" in the worldly death of the Prophet. Alhamdulillah, in my view, Asrar rubbished him completely on that.

I can go on and on. Since it is better to watch than posting summary, everyone (viewers) deserves his/her own conclusion. So bros Empiree stop making wrong assumptions (avoid it even if it is right unless you are 100% certain).

Empiree:
Lastly, the group from Shaykh Asrar Rashid messed up the debate in the end when the other group shouted "Allahu Akbar", they shouted "Ya rosululah". That's a clear cut wrong message to viewers. When the other side shouted Allahu Akbar, you do the same. Period

Allah is indeed Al-Akbar. NONE ELSE!

You are absolutely wrong again with your "assumption" and "accusations".

# First, group of Abd al-Rahman violated the contract signed by their Ustaz which they themselves have read. That's thuggery.

# Second, their shout of "Allahu Akbar" is slogan of assumed victory over their opponent. Word of truth they shouted but evil was their intention.

# Third, the other group naturally responded to affirm the victory of their sheik with the very slogan of al-isthighatha, "ya Rasulullah".

Both violated the contract and showed immaturity. That is expected anyway. Islamic discussion might sometimes become emotional!

AlBaqir:
^Empi.ree, your assumptions are too much. If I say the Salafi guy is just blah blah blah, did I meant his accusations of Shi'a? Even Asrar is against Shi'a too. I only wonder how you think sometimes.

# The Salafi Ustaz started is blah blah (to make cheap point) by saying "those on this side (reference to himself and his cult) advocate to call Allah alone, and those on this side (reference to Asrar) say call upon other than Allah".
That is very silly. Asrar made clear definition out of the meaning of Isthighatha and the Salafi guy confirmed isthighatha (as halal) "during the lifetime of the Prophet and on Qiyamat".

Yea, I condemned the way he segregated them. Not fair at all. He passed wrong message like that.

# He made fruitless efforts (blah blah blah) to weaken some of the ahadith submitted by Asrar

Well, I wont say 'fruitless'. He simply doesnt seem to understand isthighatha. It is just proper for any muslims to argue with verses of Quran he cited against isthighatha.

# He falsely attributed his Salafiyah to al-Hafiz ibn Hajar al-Asqalani. That is outrageous.

Yea, i heard that but I am not familiar with al-Hafiz ibn Hajar al-Asqalani. Is he in support of isthighatha?

# He falsely attributed the concept of isthighatha to a "Shia" but the Sheik was NEVER a Shia. I dare him proving it.

Now you talking. That's why i assumed you trashed him cus he wanted to make cheap point by driving shia into the mud.

# He tried to established a part of Tawheed for the Mushriqun (liken Muslims who practice isthighatha to them). Alhamdulillah Asrar affirmed if you believe in a part of Tawheed and not the other, it negates each other. Mushriqun is Mushroqun.

Yea, i tried to figure that out. It does sound confusing to me at first. I think he's determined isthighatha is shirk. But I was surprised at the end when he distinguished isthighatha to mean positive and negative.

# He erroneously or mistakenly or pretend (just to make cheap point) to disregard Hayat Barzakhi and blindly arguing that Asrar "do not believe" in the worldly death of the Prophet. Alhamdulillah, in my view, Asrar rubbished him completely on that.

Yes, Asrar did rubbish that. He tried to impose his view that Asrar and co dont believe in worldly death of the prophet(saw). Asrar explained it clearly at the end that "we believe the prophet is dead and buried in Medina munawara and he is in his grave". He also argued that Rasululah is categorized with shaheed according to the verse of sura Imran.

I can go on and on. Since it is better to watch than posting summary, everyone (viewers) deserves his/her own conclusion. So bros Em.piree stop making wrong assumptions (avoid it even if it is right unless you are 100% certain).

I made assumptions because, unlike the dude that posted the video, you should have left the readers and viewers to voice their opinion. But the way you castigated Ustaz Rahman would suggest that he's automatically incorrect before we even viewed the video. That's what the poster did by saying Asrar won the debate. Winner or losers should be audience opinion.

AlBaqir:


# First, group of Abd al-Rahman violated the contract signed by their Ustaz which they themselves have read. That's thuggery.

I am personally not concerned about worldly "contract" but it is understandable. I heard the debate should have taken place since January but because they could not reach agreement on the contract, that's why it kept postponed. The dude who posted about 5 hours video seems to give "victory" on the basis of "violations of the contract" rather than focusing on the permissibility of isthighatha.

# Second, their shout of "Allahu Akbar" is slogan of assumed victory over their opponent. Word of truth they shouted but evil was their intention.

Is it okay to say you also assumed here? That's what you did actually

# Third, the other group naturally responded to affirm the victory of their sheik with the very slogan of al-isthighatha, "ya Rasulullah".

I can undestand. It's like provocation but i still believe it is just PROPER to shout "Allahu Akbar" than later. Sends wrong message to viewers of tawheed. However, i dont see them violating shahada for shouting 'Ya rasululah'

Both violated the contract and showed immaturity. That is expected anyway. Islamic discussion might sometimes become emotional!

Yup, that's what happened.


Far as i am concerned, I was not taught Isthighatha growing up. Does that mean my grandfather who taught me at-tawheed doesnt know that?. Absolutely not. He was firm on Quran and sunna and he's Sufi ( awon alfa oni lawani gbangba). I forgot the local name they are called (their group). The old time classical name. My point, Isthighatha, I just heard for the first time last Ramadan from Sheik Rabiu and his explanation has absolutely nothing to do with Shirk. The thing however is, it is much better NOT to teach muridi (murid). They go overboard which is what salafis are concerned about. People can easily be misled. We see that clearly this days. They go to the grave and do all type of nonsense. If you warn them they quote hadith where rosululah (saw) said:

" I do not fear shirk for my Ummah after me"

They use this has proof that they arent committing shirk. Was surprised though when Ustaz rahman acknowledged tawasul of the prophet like the saying " Ola anobi wa Muhammad" i:e with glory of the prophet which many salafis consider shirk. Sheik faisal in his 2008 lecture after visiting Ibadan, he said many Nigerian muslims involve in shirk by saying that statement and making tawasul of the prophet.

Anyways, Isthighatha should DEFINITELY be properly coordinated for the safety of the deen. There are people who go overboard. That's why I believe my grandpa didnt teach us. After all, it is not necessary. It is only permissible. It is mustahab.

I think some people are now misrepresenting "isthighatha". I see bunch of videos after this debate titled "can we pray to the prophet after is death?". They placed the title under edited version of this debate. That's very wrong. That's not borne of contention. I dont think Asrar was talking about "praying to the prophet".

I just watched their debate "CONTRACT". That alone took over 2hrs before they reached agreement..LOL

Yea, Ustaz Rahman and his buddies did violate debate's conditions. Just that I am not worried about their worldly "contract or conditions".

And as I said earlier, the title of the debate is also inappropriate.

@ submit, here's the 5+ hours video I was talking about.
# Topic: Istighatha, Tawassul, Shafa'a
# Between: Mainstream Sunni vs Salafi

AlBaqir:
@ submit, here's the 5+ hours video I was talking about.

# Topic: Istighatha, Tawassul, Shafa'a

# Between: Mainstream Sunni vs Salafi

submit, this is the "other thread" Empiree was talking about.

AlBaqir:
^Empiree, your assumptions are too much. If I say the Salafi guy is just blah blah blah, did I meant his accusations of Shi'a? Even Asrar is against Shi'a too. I only wonder how you think sometimes.

# The Salafi Ustaz started is blah blah (to make cheap point) by saying "those on this side (reference to himself and his cult) advocate to call Allah alone, and those on this side (reference to Asrar) say call upon other than Allah".
That is very silly. Asrar made clear definition out of the meaning of Isthighatha and the Salafi guy confirmed isthighatha (as halal) "during the lifetime of the Prophet and on Qiyamat".

# He made fruitless efforts (blah blah blah) to weaken some of the ahadith submitted by Asrar

# He falsely attributed his Salafiyah to al-Hafiz ibn Hajar al-Asqalani. That is outrageous.

# He falsely attributed the concept of isthighatha to a "Shia" but the Sheik was NEVER a Shia. I dare him proving it.

# He tried to established a part of Tawheed for the Mushriqun (liken Muslims who practice isthighatha to them). Alhamdulillah Asrar affirmed if you believe in a part of Tawheed and not the other, it negates each other. Mushriqun is Mushroqun.

# He erroneously or mistakenly or pretend (just to make cheap point) to disregard Hayat Barzakhi and blindly arguing that Asrar "do not believe" in the worldly death of the Prophet. Alhamdulillah, in my view, Asrar rubbished him completely on that.

I can go on and on. Since it is better to watch than posting summary, everyone (viewers) deserves his/her own conclusion. So bros Empiree stop making wrong assumptions (avoid it even if it is right unless you are 100% certain).

Emperee is just being fair here and no sentiment but you albaqir, there is slot of sentiment in your comments. No because abeg

Kaytixy:
Emperee is just being fair here and no sentiment but you albaqir, there is slot of sentiment in your comments. No because abeg

# You only like watering your mouth and be a nuisance in every thread albaqir is. I have told you already to come out of your hidden cocoon and challenge me of my beliefs. Stop being a jerk.


# You better go and check the meaning of "sentiment" in your dico. I have nothing to be sentimental about. Its a 5 hours + debate between SUNNI and SALAFI on ISTIGHATHA. I do not belong to any of their madhhab.

AlBaqir:


[s]
# You only like watering your mouth and be a nuisance in every thread albaqir is. I have told you already to come out of your hidden cocoon and challenge me of my beliefs. Stop being a jerk.


# You better go and check the meaning of "sentiment" in your dico. I have nothing to be sentimental about. Its a 5 hours + debate between SUNNI and SALAFI on ISTIGHATHA. I do not belong to any of their madhhab.

[/s]

And this filthy twelver dhia is who some people expect me to debate.

No tolerance at all!!!
Someone told you a simple truth you resulted to insult.

AlBaqir:


# You only like watering your mouth and be a nuisance in every thread albaqir is. I have told you already to come out of your hidden cocoon and challenge me of my beliefs. Stop being a jerk.


# You better go and check the meaning of "sentiment" in your dico. I have nothing to be sentimental about. Its a 5 hours + debate between SUNNI and SALAFI on ISTIGHATHA. I do not belong to any of their madhhab.

but you guilty of what abdurahman was against. Your people worship graves and even built it inside the masjid of which you can't deny so what are you saying. I won't come out to argue with you when you can't even match yourself with other sunnatic brothers why should I join them. Demzy15 is OK for you I don't need to join him and the other brothers.how I wish I can meet you one on one and prove to you that you are lost and watch you look at me defenseless. I will let you know that all that thing you are calling knowledge is rubbish.

Kaytixy:
but you guilty of what abdurahman was against. Your people worship graves and even built it inside the masjid of which you can't deny so what are you saying. I won't come out to argue with you when you can't even match yourself with other sunnatic brothers why should I join them. Demzy15 is OK for you I don't need to join him and the other brothers.how I wish I can meet you one on one and prove to you that you are lost and watch you look at me defenseless. I will let you know that all that thing you are calling knowledge is rubbish.

# Holy Quran gives the best illustration of fanatic like you thus:

"...they have hearts with which they do not understand,
and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they
have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle,
nay, they are in worse errors..." {Q.7:179}

Kaytixy:
but you guilty of what abdurahman was against. Your people worship graves and even built it inside the masjid of which you can't deny so what are you saying. I won't come out to argue with you when you can't even match yourself with other sunnatic brothers why should I join them. Demzy15 is OK for you I don't need to join him and the other brothers.how I wish I can meet you one on one and prove to you that you are lost and watch you look at me defenseless. I will let you know that all that thing you are calling knowledge is rubbish.

@underline, just like we have revealed to you:

# how sahabah were "worshipping" the grave of Nabi

# how your Imam shafi'i, used to "worship" the grave of Imam Abu Hanifah

# And you cannot deny the fact that grave of Nabi is in his mosque.

# Qur'an even mention in sura kahf those who built mosque around the ashab al-kahf.

* Obviously, nothing can change the mind of fanatic like you. And you could see how helpless your other fanatical brothers are. Sea of evidences are before them, in their own very threads, they continue evading and evading.

# Really its a waste of time and energy to dialogue with people like you. It's really a waste of time.

submit:
Which other thread o

This one

AlBaqir:


# You only like watering your mouth and be a nuisance in every thread albaqir is. I have told you already to come out of your hidden cocoon and challenge me of my beliefs. Stop being a jerk.


# You better go and check the meaning of "sentiment" in your dico. I have nothing to be sentimental about. Its a 5 hours + debate between SUNNI and SALAFI on ISTIGHATHA. I do not belong to any of their madhhab.

Al-baqir please let us know what u believe

guru1234:


Al-baqir please let us know what u believe

# As in? That seems not specific to me. On this thread, its about Tawassul, Shafa'a and Istighatha. So, is it on that?

AlBaqir:


# Holy Quran gives the best illustration of fanatic like you thus:

"...they have hearts with which they do not understand,
and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they
have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle,
nay, they are in worse errors..." {Q.7:179}

wallahi I'm laughing at you right now. This verse you just quoted should be against you wallahi. Look at someone who goes about insulting the sahabas, worship graves, believe in cutting themselves apart all in the name of celebrating abi remembering Husein (ra),accept prostitution in their aqida all in the name of mutah marriage etc is quoting verse for me. I pity for you wallahi. I have nothing other than to keep praying that Allah SWA guides you to the right part because you are lost wallahi. Dis guy too funny abeg. Kai! He dey even quote verse Haba kam balahi.

AlBaqir:


# As in? That seems not specific to me. On this thread, its about Tawassul, Shafa'a and Istighatha. So, is it on that?

a Jew, Christian and even babalawo are better than albaqir wallahi why, because a Jew or Christian does not have the knowledge of Al Islam and even babalawo doesn't but you albaqir claim to know but yet magic na una work and idol worshipping. I pity for you

AlBaqir:


# As in? That seems not specific to me. On this thread, its about Tawassul, Shafa'a and Istighatha. So, is it on that?

Yes sticking to the topic, what is your believe on the above

guru1234:

Yes sticking to the topic, what is your believe on the above

# Here's my debate with Newna.s. Lots have been said there already:
www.nairaland.com/3950793/seeking-closeness-lord

# Then here's my thread before the above:
www.nairaland.com/1995895/best-form-tawassul-intercession-using
# In a nutshell, the best, noble and humble form of worship is via Tawassul.