winner01:

You might need to tell that to your atheist colleagues.

These ones:

https://www.nairaland.com/2670287/famous-scientists-believed-god
https://www.nairaland.com/2499498/quotes-famous-men-bible
https://www.nairaland.com/2975009/christianity-reason-science

Einstein believed in a personal god, he also saw the rationality in reaching for the supernatural.

So we can agree that Einstein did not belief in the Christian God.

Also, there have always been scientists on either side of the divide.

Thomas Eddison, Alan Turing for example were atheists and I am sure there will be more if I care to research . In modern science, I think there are more atheists than believers.

GeneralShepherd:


The biggest contraption in the concept of God is the fallacy of special pleading.

If the the universe actually needs a creator then something/someone /or some people created the creator.

Just declaring that God is the uncreated creator does not make sense without a justification of his eternal characteristics.

The Christian God is eternal because the bible says he is eternal. This assertion is hardly convincing

It is logical , very logical .

Whatever caused the big bang has to be eternal or it would progress into infinite regression . God fits that description . Doesn't a creator cause something to exist ? And doesn't having no beginning preclude infinite regression ? Religion just defines the nature of the creator - an anthropomorphic one in fact.

GeneralShepherd:


So we can agree that Einstein did not belief in the Christian God.

Also, there have always been scientists on either side of the divide.

Thomas Eddison, Alan Turing for example were atheists and I am sure there will be more if I care to research . In modern science, I think there are more atheists than believers.

Alan Turing was formerly a Christian . Most atheist scientists did not abjure their beliefs because of reason or science , its more of life circumstances

KingEbukasBlog:


Alan Turing was formerly a Christian . Most atheist scientists did not abjure their beliefs because of reason or science , its more of life circumstances

If I ask you to substantiate the above claim, I fear you might take offence.

I personally do not think given the prospect of an eternal hell any sane human being will choose to become an atheist just to spite a God he knows exists.

Using myself as an example, I gave up on the idea of God because of obvious illogiclities associated with it. My life is not so flamboyant but I don't live in penury either.

I have been in life threatening situations and have never had a need to call on an imaginary being. I was also an atheist before I left Nigeria for England

GeneralShepherd:


If I ask you to substantiate the above claim, I fear you might take offence.

I personally do not think given the prospect of an eternal hell any sane human being will choose to become an atheist just to spite a God he knows exists.

Using myself as an example, I gave up on the idea of God because of obvious illogiclities associated with it. My life is not so flamboyant but I don't live in penury either.

I have been in life threatening situations and have never had a need to call on an imaginary being. I was also an atheist before I left Nigeria for England

Alan Turing lost faith in God after the death of his first love , he refused to believe a loving God would allow her death, then he embraced materialism. Even Richard Dawkins lost his daughter and became an atheist .

Most Nigerian atheists still ask who created God - this is one of the "rational questions" they couldn't answer and had to renounce or give up their faith in God . What I'm trying to say is that various misconceptions have led to many people abjuring their belief in God .

There are a thousand and one people who have called God in difficult , hopeless , and life-threatening situations and divine intervention came their way - these experiences are impalpable .

GeneralShepherd:


So we can agree that Einstein did not belief in the Christian God.

The point is that he understood that the universe was a handiwork of a designer .

. In modern science, I think there are more atheists than believers.

That's what atheist sites want you believe . They are doing a good job apparently

KingEbukasBlog:


Alan Turing lost faith in God after the death of his first love , he refused to believe a loving God would allow her death, then he embraced materialism. Even Richard Dawkins lost his daughter and became an atheist .

Most Nigerian atheists still ask who created God - this is one of the "rational questions" they couldn't answer and had to renounce or give up their faith in God . What I'm trying to say is that various misconceptions have led to many people abjuring their belief in God .

There are a thousand and one people who have called God in difficult , hopeless , and life-threatening situations and divine intervention came their way - these experiences are impalpable .

Even according to the bible, circumstances in one's life cannot determine the existence of God or not.

Pastor Bimbo Odukoya (of blessed memory) died in an accident, you and I when exposed to the same level of risk, have an equal probability of negative/positive outcomes.

Christians or any other group of people that subscribe to any of the thousands of God available are nothing special when compared to atheists. Studies on prayers have suggested they are ineffective

KingEbukasBlog:


The point is that he understood that the universe was a handiwork of a designer .



That's what atheist sites want you believe . They are doing a good job apparently

Contrary to what you think, I recently finished an Msc from the UK and I can tell you that very few people in academia subscribe to a God.

Generally, in advanced societies except America atheism is generally surging because people have less need to believe in a God.

Even here in Australia religion is seen as part of culture and not as a medium of expressing faith in a higher being

GeneralShepherd:


So we can agree that Einstein did not belief in the Christian God.

Also, there have always been scientists on either side of the divide.

Thomas Eddison, Alan Turing for example were atheists and I am sure there will be more if I care to research . In modern science, I think there are more atheists than believers.

Not the christian God alone but christianity surely gulps a lot of those great men, most of the intelligent humans were theists.

Thomas eddison and alan turing were not atheists. Thomas Edison believed in a Creator as laws of nature that ruled the world, Alan turing believed in reincarnation.
In mordern science, evolutionists are trying hard to define science as a disbelief in God, science is no longer based on observation and experimentation but a disbelief in God. No transitional fossil whatsoever exists to validate evolution, yet evolutionsts have faith that evolution is true.
If you tell me there is no God, then you must be God who sees and knows everything everywhere. Like KingEbukasBlog said, agnosticism is a more honest position.

KingEbukasBlog:



The Universe is all of time and space and its contents. The Universe includes planets, natural satellites, minor planets, stars, galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, the smallest subatomic particles, and all matter and energy - Wikipedia

I had to recheck to be sure I was not out of line . What am trying to say is , what we call universe is simply a collection of energy , matter , space , planets , stars etc . So if energy which is contained in other constituents is eternal , why do we say the universe has a beginning - we are focusing on other constituents

Let me put it this way.
Energy is a force of nature.
The forces of nature predate the universe and acts on the universe.

That does not seem to me like a blind mindless force.

GeneralShepherd:


Even according to the bible, circumstances in one's life cannot determine the existence of God or not.

Pastor Bimbo Odukoya (of blessed memory) died in an accident, you and I when exposed to the same level of risk, have an equal probability of negative/positive outcomes.

Christians or any other group of people that subscribe to any of the thousands of God available are nothing special when compared to atheists. Studies on prayers have suggested they are ineffective

How did this elude you ? They actually got the intervention they sought after . I can't explain why other Christians lose their lives in those situations . There are other ways God reveals himself

1. Visions/Revelations/Warnings through Dreams - this I have experienced

2. Miracles - I have experienced this

3. The Bible - This I have experienced .

Prayers are very effective . Most sinners cry foul when their prayers are unanswered when the Bible says


Proverbs 28 :9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.

Proverbs 15 : 8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

The only way you can pacify God for your sins is to turn to Him in prayers and ask for forgiveness of sin .

TBH , most atheists here claiming to operate in logic and reason were mere church goers who became recreants when they got bored of going to Church . They took desultory actions , without trying to know God's purpose, and went these fail to produce results , they claim God does not exit .

Did you seek answers when dots failed to connect Those who always seek or are willing to get answers always get results

Matthew 7:7-8

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

The word of God does not lie . I have asked more questions than any of you here , honestly . But I got answers in one way or the other . I feel peace in my heart when the answers come . I say ' Thank You Jesus '

KingEbukasBlog:


How did this elude you ? They actually got the intervention they sought after . I can't explain why other Christians lose their lives in those situations . There are other ways God reveals himself

1. Visions/Revelations/Warnings through Dreams - this I have experienced

2. Miracles - I have experienced this

3. The Bible - This I have experienced .

Prayers are very effective . Most sinners cry foul when their prayers are unanswered when the Bible says


Proverbs 28 :9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.

Proverbs 15 : 8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

The only way you can pacify God for your sins is to turn to Him in prayers and ask for forgiveness of sin .

TBH , most atheists here claiming to operate in logic and reason were mere church goers who became recreants when they got bored of going to Church . They took desultory actions , without trying to know God's purpose, and went these fail to produce results , they claim God does not exit .

Did you seek answers when dots failed to connect Those who always seek or are willing to get answers always get results

Matthew 7:7-8



The word of God does not lie . I have asked more questions than any of you here , honestly . But I got answers in one way or the other . I feel peace in my heart when the answers come . I say ' Thank You Jesus '

No matter how you look at it belief in God relies on subjective evidence that relies on personal accounts.

Like I said, everybody deserves to believe in what they choose to believe in as for me, I see no logical evidence for the Christian God nor any God for that matter including Allah, Idemmili, Sango, Shiva, Amadioha etc

The argument for intelligent designs has gaping holes in it especially when you wonder why God has to create a billion planets just to place man in one of them.

Isn't that an obvious waste of materials and energy?

GeneralShepherd:


No matter how you look at it belief in God relies on subjective evidence that relies on personal accounts.

Like I said, everybody deserves to believe in what they choose to believe in as for me, I see no logical evidence for the Christian God nor any God for that matter including Allah, Idemmili, Sango, Shiva, Amadioha etc

The argument for intelligent designs has gaping holes in it especially when you wonder why God has to create a billion planets just to place man in one of them.

Isn't that an obvious waste of materials and energy?

Your arguments are specious , no offence . That's why its rational . A conscious creator who has a mind - elicits thoughts and purpose of action right ? God can offer an explanation to the question but can void give you an answer ? No . You do realise that its not yet clear if extraterrestrial life exists , so this is more of a conjecture .

How can everything exist on its own accord Like how do you guys do it . Sit down and try to explain through assumptions how the laws of nature created themselves and ordered everything to fall in place . As if that was not enough , this whole madness came to earth and created intelligent life that can think , be conscious , have the dexterity to create , to decide , to remember . My God ! I am fascinated by this atheism . Its so irrational .

Its funnier when they study the present to tell a story of the past - that's faith ! ! ! Assumptions !!!!

winner01:

Let me put it this way.
Energy is a force of nature.
The forces of nature predate the universe and acts on the universe.

That does not seem to me like a blind mindless force.

Oh . Thanks bro

KingEbukasBlog:


Your arguments are specious , no offence . That's why its rational . A conscious creator who has a mind - elicits thoughts and purpose of action right ? God can offer an explanation to the question but can void give you an answer ? No . You do realise that its not yet clear if extraterrestrial life exists , so this is more of a conjecture .

How can everything exist on its own accord Like how do you guys do it . Sit down and try to explain through assumptions how the laws of nature created themselves and ordered everything to fall in place . As if that was not enough , this whole madness came to earth and created intelligent life that can think , be conscious , have the dexterity to create , to decide , to remember . My God ! I am fascinated by this atheism . Its so irrational .

Its funnier when they study the present to tell a story of the past - that's faith ! ! ! Assumptions !!!!

I am also flabagasted as to how a God can exist without a creator. It beats my imagination such a great God exists without cause.

I am truly fascinated at the leap of faith in Christianity. Everything a christian cannot explain is attributed to a God - a God of the gaps

KingEbukasBlog:


Your arguments are specious , no offence . That's why its rational . A conscious creator who has a mind - elicits thoughts and purpose of action right ? God can offer an explanation to the question but can void give you an answer ? No . You do realise that its not yet clear if extraterrestrial life exists , so this is more of a conjecture .

How can everything exist on its own accord Like how do you guys do it . Sit down and try to explain through assumptions how the laws of nature created themselves and ordered everything to fall in place . As if that was not enough , this whole madness came to earth and created intelligent life that can think , be conscious , have the dexterity to create , to decide , to remember . My God ! I am fascinated by this atheism . Its so irrational .

Its funnier when they study the present to tell a story of the past - that's faith ! ! ! Assumptions !!!!

In addition, we are assuming this God you described exists, no proof whatsoever of his existence has been presented thus far.

The argument for Intelligent design is not enough as the share number of planets and the imperfections on earth's design negates this assumption

GeneralShepherd:


I am also flabagasted as to how a God can exist without a creator. It beats my imagination such a great God exists without cause.

I am truly fascinated at the leap of faith in Christianity. Everything a christian cannot explain is attributed to a God - a God of the gaps

Another specious argument .

1. The universe , as far as we can see , has a cause . God's existence precludes infinite regression . Atheist scientists stole the idea of an eternal God to describe the universe , they tried to avoid the irresistible need for a creator . Why go through so much pain just to disprove God's existence - its getting no more about the non existence of God , its more like anti-theism . Not knowing that an eternal universe best fits the cause to believe in God . .

2. Acknowledging the fact that a creator made the universe is not ignorance= God of the gaps

KingEbukasBlog:


Another specious argument .

1. The universe , as far as we can see , has a cause . God's existence precludes infinite regression . Atheist scientists stole the idea of an eternal God to describe the universe , they tried to avoid the irresistible need for a creator . Why go through so much pain just to disprove God's existence - its getting no more about the non existence of God , its more like anti-theism . Not knowing that an eternal universe best fits the cause to believe in God . .

2. Acknowledging the fact that a creator made the universe is not ignorance= God of the gaps

God's existence precludes infinite regression because? He is God? Please care to demonstrate how atheist scientists stole the idea of an eternal God?

What is the irresistible need for a creator? The same creator that created 7 planets in the solar system, just to place his children in one? Or the creator that created millions of galaxies for no apparent reason?

Or is it a creator that created an obviously far from perfect earth with all the obvious design flaws in it?

Even if the Universe was created (which I disagree with) what if it was a group assignment like the ancient Greeks believe. Various creators like in modern projects. Afterall, the house creationists love to use in their analogy for a created universe was not built by a single human but by a group of humans.

Why not a group of creators?

GeneralShepherd:


God's existence precludes infinite regression because? He is God? Please care to demonstrate how atheist scientists stole the idea of an eternal God?

Yeah . Durrh ! We are talking of an entity who is in existence , he is not a concept . An eternal creator has always been , this knowledge has been indited down and passed down to generations . The notion of an eternal universe began in the 21st century , 2 years ago to be precise . The Big Bang was proposed in 1927 . Why are you being disingenuous ?

What is the irresistible need for a creator? The same creator that created 7 planets in the solar system, just to place his children in one? Or the creator that created millions of galaxies for no apparent reason?

The universe has a cause and the cause of the universe is its creator . Did you ask God and he told you that he created the planets and galaxies for no apparent reason . That's why the creator has a mind , his actions mean there is a purpose . But void cant reply you . And I also told you that there could be extraterrestrial life he created and allowed to function in distant planets . Resorting to conjectures is being illogical .

Or is it a creator that created an obviously far from perfect earth with all the obvious design flaws in it?[\quote]

And the bible lets us know that a universe or earth will come and the present one will pass away . This universe and earth were designed for temporal use . Open your bible for once and stop these cavils .

[quote]Even if the Universe was created (which I disagree with) what if it was a group assignment like the ancient Greeks believe. Various creators like in modern projects. Afterall, the house creationists love to use in their analogy for a created universe was not built by a single human but by a group of humans.

Why not a group of creators?

Like winner01 said , the question we should be asking is who is the true creator ?

You really do have a penchant for specious arguments .

KingEbukasBlog:


Yeah . Durrh ! We are talking of an entity who is in existence , he is not a concept . An eternal creator has always been , this knowledge has been indited down and passed down to generations . The notion of an eternal universe began in the 21st century , 2 years ago to be precise . The Big Bang was proposed in 1927 . Why are you being disingenuous ?



The universe has a cause and the cause of the universe is its creator . Did you ask God and he told you that he created the planets and galaxies for no apparent reason . That's why the creator has a mind , his actions mean there is a purpose . But void cant reply you . And I also told you that there could be extraterrestrial life he created and allowed to function in distant planets . Resorting to conjectures is being illogical .

I have been civil with you in all our conversations on NL, I implore you to maintain that civility. Resorting to remarks like durrh! and labelling every argument specious will surely shutdown any meaningful discourse.

Atheists have been in existence before the 21St century, atheism is not a new concept. So your argument seems to be disingenuous.

Why will an intelligent design that is all knowing create a system with flaws and with no plan for design upgrades? Even human designers that are not perfect regularly update their designs to reduce flaws.

What is the need for earthquakes in a perfectly created world?

The universe and everything in it is in a constant chaotic state and this seriously questions the inteligent design argument

GeneralShepherd:


I have been civil with you in all our conversations on NL, I implore you to maintain that civility. Resorting to remarks like durrh! and labelling every argument specious will surely shutdown any meaningful discourse.

Atheists have been in existence before the 21St century, atheism is not a new concept. So your argument seems to be disingenuous.

Why will an intelligent design that is all knowing create a system with flaws and with no plan for design upgrades? Even human designers that are not perfect regularly update their designs to reduce flaws.

What is the need for earthquakes in a perfectly created world?

The universe and everything in it is in a constant chaotic state and this seriously questions the inteligent design argument

This universe and earth are for temporal use , they are good but not perfect . The upgrade is coming when he comes again . A new earth and heaven will emerge . A bodily transformation will be witnessed by the saints . A new everything , flawless , perfect . Bro , You keep asking the same questions over and over again . I haff tire oo

The argument was about an eternal universe not how long the atheists have been . The idea of an eternal universe came just 2 years ago . While God-Believers had been with the knowledge of an eternal God for thousands of years . Atheist scientists stole the idea apparently .


The atheists at that time just believed everything started on its own will not eternal . Sorry if you were uncomfortable with my approach , I apologize .

KingEbukasBlog:


This universe and earth are for temporal use , it is good but not perfect . The upgrade is coming when he comes again . A new earth and heaven will emerge . A bodily transformation will be witnessed by the saints . A new everything , flawless , perfect . Bro , You keep asking the same questions over and over again . I haff tire oo

The argument was about an eternal universe not how long the atheists have been . The idea of an eternal universe came just 2 years ago . While God-Believer's had been with the knowledge of an eternal God for thousands of years . It's a stolen idea apparently .


The atheists just believed everything starts on its own will not eternal . Sorry if you were uncomfortable with my approach , I apologize .

Apologies accepted. I want to avoid being tedious and repeating the same questions.

I disagree with you that the idea of an eternal universe is a recent idea, if anything in recent years scientists believe that there is a strong evidence that the universe has a beginning.

The pertinent question is why is the idea of a creator / creators be the only possible explanation to our existence. In my opinion, it is man's own idea of answering every unknown with 'God did it'.

My answer and that of many atheists is that we do not know but the idea of a God is implausible. The concept and nature of God, cannot be subjected to scrutiny as well because of the inherent ambiguity attached to it

GeneralShepherd:


Apologies accepted. I want to avoid being tedious and repeating the same questions.

Thanks

I disagree with you that the idea of an eternal universe is a recent idea, if anything in recent years scientists believe that there is a strong evidence that the universe has a beginning.

The universe has always been known to have a beginning , that's why there were different cosmological models that assume how it began . The Big Bang is a prevailing model .Be honest , when did you start hearing about an eternal inverse ?

The pertinent question is why is the idea of a creator / creators be the only possible explanation to our existence. In my opinion, it is man's own idea of answering every unknown with 'God did it'.

I don't know how my iPad was produced , it's intricate workings but Apple did it . Now is it my idea of answering the unknown or did I state a fact? Let's assume that God is a concept , which is logical , an eternal conscious creator whose mind begot the universe and has a purpose of its creation or nothing bringing forth everything ? Humans , our intelligence , consciousness , cognition , emotions all came forth from random , chaotic , chance-dependent events ?

Here is a funny one : everything made humans and knew he needs to be nourished and provided fruits to do so . By mistake , not intended

My answer and that of many atheists is that we do not know but the idea of a God is implausible. The concept and nature of God, cannot be subjected to scrutiny as well because of the inherent ambiguity attached to it

Yeah and the idea of no purpose of life , or nothingness bringing forth everything seems plausible , unambiguous , rational and has transcended scrutiny . Atheists have more faith than theists apparently .

KingEbukasBlog:


Thanks



The universe has always been known to have a beginning , that's why there were different cosmological models that assume how it began . The Big Bang is a prevailing model .Be honest , when did you start hearing about an eternal inverse ?



I don't know how my iPad was produced , it's intricate workings but Apple did it . Now is it my idea of answering the unknown or did I state a fact? Let's assume that God is a concept , which is logical , an eternal conscious creator whose mind begot the universe and has a purpose of its creation or nothing bringing forth everything ? Humans , our intelligence , consciousness , cognition , emotions all came forth from random , chaotic , chance-dependent events ?

Here is a funny one : everything made humans and knew he needs to be nourished and provided fruits to do so . By mistake , not intended



Yeah and the idea of no purpose of life , or nothingness bringing forth everything seems plausible , unambiguous , rational and has transcended scrutiny . Atheists have more faith than theists apparently .

When you examine the Ipad few things tell you immediately that it is created

1. It has the unmistakable apple logo which is imprinted on every device made by Apple. The earth lacks that branding.

2. The purpose of its design as a communication device cannot be mistaken, same cannot be of the alleged creator's creations.

3. If there are doubters as to if it were created, Apple has a physical address in the USA where all doubts will be dispelled. Same cannot be said of the creator /creators of the universe.

If you take into account the Billions of known planets and the number of years that has elapsed since the beginning of the earth. It is very plausible random events brought about the existence of it all. When you consider the fact that the chaos in the universe rages it on to this day, it is possible.

No matter what we say or think, the origin of the life, the universe or the earth is unknown.

I apologise for lack of cohesion in my responses. I am replying from a mobile phone in a moving train

GeneralShepherd:


When you examine the Ipad few things tell you immediately that it is created

1. It has the unmistakable apple logo which is imprinted on every device made by Apple. The earth lacks that branding.

2. The purpose of its design as a communication device cannot be mistaken, same cannot be of the alleged creator's creations.

3. If there are doubters as to if it were created, Apple has a physical address in the USA where all doubts will be dispelled. Same cannot be said of the creator /creators of the universe.

If you take into account the Billions of known planets and the number of years that has elapsed since the beginning of the earth. It is very plausible random events brought about the existence of it all. When you consider the fact that the chaos in the universe rages it on to this day, it is possible.

No matter what we say or think, the origin of the life, the universe or the earth is unknown.

I apologise for lack of cohesion in my responses. I am replying from a mobile phone in a moving train

What kind of events are involved that can cause planets , stars , sun , galaxies to emerge . I wish KoloOyinbo was still active , he would have laughed at these .

GeneralShepherd:

If you take into account the Billions of known planets and the number of years that has elapsed since the beginning of the earth. It is very plausible random events brought about the existence of it all. When you consider the fact that the chaos in the universe rages it on to this day, it is possible.

How do you know there are billions of known planets

KingEbukasBlog:



How do you know there are billions of known planets

Telescopes... And years of observations by astronomers

KingEbukasBlog:


What kind of events are involved that can cause planets , stars , sun , galaxies to emerge . I wish KoloOyinbo was still active , he would have laughed at these .

Like I said no one knows

GeneralShepherd:


Telescopes... And years of observations by astronomers

So you are certain they are right ?

GeneralShepherd:


Like I said no one knows

You don't know bro . Speak for yourself

KingEbukasBlog:


So you are certain they are right ?

Are you suggesting they are not?

KingEbukasBlog:


You don't know bro . Speak for yourself

Asides from what the bible said that God did it, you do not know either