udatso:

I think your comparison is flawed. If a parents disciplines a child, it's for correction purpose. But is it Thesame when a non believer will be in hellfire for ever? How will he learn from his mistake?

udatso:
For the record, malvisguy212 has been ignoring my questions. You have the time to quote cloudgoddess. Just incase you didn't see the mention, I will repost them here again



Malvisguy212
Considering the fact that in your reply you didn't address the coloured, should I assume you agree with me on this?

malvisguy212:
let me ask you, is it wrong for me to preach against sin and it consequence ? Does it mean, I don't love you just because I preach against sin and the punishment ?

You don't know what you are saying here,

that is why this atheist are in support with you,

so God should not cast anyone to hell ?

If Allah is merciful, why will he cast sinner to hell ? He is not merciful, the simple answer to this is, He is merciful that is why he is finding a way for you to escape the punishment of hell. If I did not known you, I would've ask , are you an atheist ?

malvisguy212:
you give your own interpretation which is wrong, the verse did not say, man cannot separate us from God, the verse say say SUFFERING and PAIN cannot separate us from God love.

malvisguy212:
you give your own interpretation which is wrong, the verse did not say, man cannot separate us from God, the verse say say SUFFERING and PAIN cannot separate us from God love.

udatso:


Of course He should. But of course, those who are cast to hell are not loved by God as a result of their actions and inactions.

Scholar8200:
So, a law such as,"dont stay out late at night" given because the father knows the dangers that the child might be exposed to is a sign of a conditional love?

Scholar8200:

I dont think so. Rather it is a sign of love. If the child disobeys and gets attacked, will you count that a punishment from the father?

Scholar8200:

Rather I see it as an expression of love that realizes that there are more than just you too in the whole universe and not all loves the child just as the father does! Besides the father's unconditional love calls for the rebuke. The father does not rebuke the son so that the latter would change and become lovable; he rebukes because he loves the son so much and would not bear to watch him destroy himself!

You rebuke your brother because you love him, crystal clear!

Not that you rebuke your brother so that he can become lovable when he changes. This is clear enough.

malvisguy212:
has atheism block your sense of reasoning ? I wept for you, so after the father has commanded the son NOT to go out at night, the son disobey and got attack by robbers, you will blame the father ? Are you guys insane ? Smh

udatso:

Please be careful with your utterances. Where did I state the bold?
My interpretations where gotten from
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/8-38.htm
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/romans-8-39.html


You can check it out for yourself. John gills, Barnes, Mathew Henry and many other commentators translated it the way I did which is summarised as the bonding factor for the love of God is in Christ, once this bond is established, nothing else can break it. Be it angels, humans, other beings. ........




So how am I wrong in the way your scholars translated it

malvisguy212:
Very good, The bible God is different from the quranic allah. The bible say it not the will of God that ANY Should perish, but ALL should come to REPENTANCE. Going to hell does not mean God does not Love you,He love you that's why he provide way for you to chose. If you chose to go against God will, so it God fault ? God did not love you ? Well, that's not my god, the God I serve is different from the one you serve.

Allah is merciful to those who accept the truth, what about the unbelievers living among us ? Did Allah love them ?

udatso:
Here's another condition in the for the Bible God Love in the old testament
Deuteronomy 7:12-13

IF you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them (condition statement) then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, (execution statement) as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you.

malvisguy212:
it is the subject and not the object, let me give you an example, look at how terrorist are killing christians, isis and boko haram. is that Paul spells out the
kinds of things that cannot separate us from the love of Christ, and they are the sort of things that happened t Everyday: "Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?" The reason Paul chose to mention so many terrible things is to make sure we knew he was not saying: Well, there are some things so horrible that they really could separate us from the love of Christ. No. Nothing can separate us from Christ’s love.

shall be able to separate us the love of God, which is in Christ
Jesus our Lord:
by "the love of God", is not meant the saints' love to God; for though this is sometimes called the love of God, it is from him, as the author of it, and to him, as the object of it, and may be said to be in Christ, or by him, and can never be lost; yet the apostle would not have expressed such a strong confidence and full persuasion about this, and would rather have said, had this been his meaning, that nothing shall be able to separate our love from God, or God from our love, and not us from the love of God; besides, he is speaking of that love by which we are more than conquerors, and manifestly intends the love with which God loves his people, particularly the love of God the Father: and this is "in Christ Jesus our Lord"; he has expressed it in and through Christ, in choosing and blessing them in him, and in sending him to die for them; and it still continues in him, and is in him as their Lord, head, husband, and Redeemer; and is a reason why nothing can separate them from it: which is to be understood, not of the effects of love, and the application of it, which may be suspended for a time; nor of the manifestation and sense of it, which believers may be without for a while; nor of any sort of separation from God, for saints themselves may be separated from him, with respect to intimate sensible communion and fellowship; but the sense of this passage is, that they can never be separated from the love of God, so as that that union which is made by it between God and them can ever be dissolved, or they cease to have any share or interest in his love. This the apostle was persuaded could never be.

malvisguy212:
it is the subject and not the object, let me give you an example, look at how terrorist are killing christians, isis and boko haram. is that Paul spells out the
kinds of things that cannot separate us from the love of Christ, and they are the sort of things that happened t Everyday: "Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?" The reason Paul chose to mention so many terrible things is to make sure we knew he was not saying: Well, there are some things so horrible that they really could separate us from the love of Christ. No. Nothing can separate us from Christ’s love.

Nor any other creature — Above or beneath, in heaven, earth, or hell: nothing beneath the Almighty. In this general clause the apostle includes whatever else could be named, as having any influence to separate believers from the love of God, exercised toward them through Christ: shall be able — Either by force, Romans 8:35, or by any legal claim, Romans 8:33, &c., to separate us from the love of God in Christ — Which will surely save, protect, and deliver us, who believe, and persevere so to do, i

udatso:

I think your comparison is flawed. If a parent disciplines a child, it's for correction purpose. But is it Thesame when a non believer will be in hellfire for ever? How will he learn from his mistake?

udatso:
Here's another condition in the for the Bible God Love in the old testament
Deuteronomy 7:12-13

IF you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them (condition statement) then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, (execution statement) as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land-your grain, new wine and oil-the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you.

udatso:

From the link I gave you, here's another interpretation

The summary : the love is available for those who believe ........
My dear malvisguy212, that's what we call condition.
Mind you these interpretations aren't mine oo. Before you accuse me of misinterpretation. They are from your scholars.

Scholar8200:


But the person chose hell when he chose to reject God inspite of all attempts to discourage that choice?!

A father does all he can to make sure his kids get educated but they choose to play truants and eventually become criminals/murderers and land in court, turns out their father was also the judge and he sentences them to death (the consequence of their actions as prescribed by the law), would you still blame the father for not loving them?

DID THE FATHER HATE THE SON WHEN HE MADE HIM BEAR THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE SIN OF THE WORLD?NO!

YES, HE WITHDREW HIS PRESENCE BUT DID HE WITHDRAW HIS LOVE? NO!

46 that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 27:46b

Scholar8200:
So, a law such as,"dont stay out late at night" given because the father knows the dangers that the child might be exposed to is a sign of a conditional love? I dont think so. Rather it is a sign of love. If the child disobeys and gets attacked, will you count that a punishment from the father?
Rather I see it as an expression of love that realizes that there are more than just you too in the whole universe and not all loves the child just as the father does! Besides the father's unconditional love calls for the rebuke. The father does not rebuke the son so that the latter would change and become lovable; he rebukes because he loves the son so much and would not bear to watch him destroy himself!

You rebuke your brother because you love him, crystal clear!

Not that you rebuke your brother so that he can become lovable when he changes. This is clear enough.

Now you may say God made the laws in this case but would you assume that love = lawlessness/nihilistic indulgence? Or that Love is meant to make us escape the consequence of our choices to be unconditional?

Scholar8200:
Speaking of covenant. But let's see this:

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 7:7,8

This was said before they even entered the land of promise. At this time were they faithful and obedient people? NO. See the condition of their hearts:

for I know their imagination which they go about, [size=14pt]even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.[/size]

And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.


Deuteronomy 31:21b,16

Yet HE loved them still and commanded a song to be written that will serve as both a warning and a remembrance.

udatso:

Why don't we also look at the verse 9-12
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.





My point here isn'twhether He later lived them, but the fact that there was a condition for them to be loved. That's the obvious truth we can't run away from

udatso:

Now you are bringing a totally different example here. We were talking about this your post below.




In this example above, we talked about rebuking for correction so that the son or brother would be loveable again. But in this your recent example it's not about rebuking him to be loves again but to be rebuked forever. Hellfire.

Let's face reality here. This isnt nollywood. In most cases(if not all) , if a dad is the judge of a family member's case, the Judge would be disqualified and the Case handed to another judge due to the fact that emotions and compromise are in play here. Even if the judge is allowed to precide over the case, if it comes to capital punishment for the son, I doubt a father would do such. He would rather withdraw and have another judge make such decisions.

Which is Why I am trying to make you understand that the moment you call such unconditional, anything is possible. God is love as expressed in the Bible, but that doesnt mean that's All He is. God equally hates. He has said it in the Bible in so many verses ....here are some of them

Scholar8200:
And what condition did they fulfill here before the highlighted was said:
7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you,
Deuteronomy 7:7,8a

Hear God:

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.


4[b] I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love[/b]: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.
Hosea 11:1-4

The use of a child there is to illustrate the nature of love: a father does not love his kids because of some conditions they fulfill!

Scholar8200:
God does not rebuke that you may become lovable. He rebukes because He loves. Now, is hell fire a place of rebuke? or a place one gets to as a result of the choices made on earth?

That is as far as man is concerned. Man may withdraw/compromise judgement due to emotion etc but not with God. For example, David was a man after God's heart, but did God spare him from the consequence of his adultery and murder? Of Solomon, it was written:
and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him.(2 Samuel 12:24b), but was he spared when he descended to idolatry?

Indeed, God is angry with the wicked everyday (Psalm 7:11), but that does not negate the fact that He, in love, withholds deserved judgement with the expectation that they will repent

The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people’s conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

and also

11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 33:11

Now see love exuding therefrom! The Lord hates the wicked in the same way a parent will be very grieved and upset towards a child he/she loves but is bent on going the path of self-destruction! How do i know this? If it is a case of animosity or malice, then God would simply wipe them out sans chance or room/hope for repentance.

udatso:

No matter how we talk about this, we will always arrive at the conditions. It's mosaic covenant was made with them. And they broke the covenant as we can see in
II Kings 17:7-8

For so it was that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, . . . and they had feared other gods, and had walked in the statutes of the nations whom the LORD had cast out from before the children of Israel.


And the Lord was very angry with them and below was what happened next
2 Kings 17:18-20

18 Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the Lord their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.

20 And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.



So you see, after they disobeyed God, the love covenant was gone.

Could you please give me a reference showing how God loved them after they disobeyed Him?

Scholar8200:


Love covenant?Gone? Where did you get these from?

14 Also all the chiefs of the priests and the people trespassed greatly in accord with [size=13pt]all the abominations of the heathen, and they polluted the house of the Lord which He had hallowed in Jerusalem.[/size]
15 And the Lord, the God of their fathers, sent to them persistently by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place.
2 Chronicles 36:14,15

It is the Love of God that, in spite of how hopelessly far down they had gone, withheld judgement but rather sent messengers to warn them that they may repent!

Scholar8200:
^^The Bible is God's message neither to angels nor devils but man. Hence, I cannot answer that question.

udatso:

The reason you can't answer it is because of your current stand of unconditional love of God. Because you know that there are serious implications in either YES OR NO reply

udatso:

I am referring to the mosaic covenant.
It was an obey my Laws amd I will love you kind of convenant.

This issue of covenant actually brings out something new.
The word, "covenant," is briyth (ber-eeth), in Hebrew, defined as, "a compact," an agreement between parties.

It carries legal authority whereby both parties are constrained (obligated) by conditions within the covenant. It is always conditional on each of the parties fulfilling his/her part of the covenant/compact.

A covenant is always conditional. No? If it is conditional then God doesn't love unconditionally.