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Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Rilwayne001: 9:29pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
lexiconkabir: we all need it. However we need to scrutinize whatever we are been taught. Leave the Bible out of this, the Quran has made it clear that the bible is not a book to be followed Still doesn't change the fact that the writers of the hadith were not eye witness just like the writer of the Bible. Yes, All SAHIH AHADITH are revelation, the most healthy book on earth is the Quran, followed by Bukhari, i hope that answers your Question. The fact the Quran is followed by Bukhari makes the Quran more viable than it in all way. And so the Quran says"let those who reject faith reject, Allah (swt) will judge them" and the hadith says"kill all those who reject faith" isn't this outright contradiction? WAllahi i used to think in your line in the past, but i have tried to study more, hence my line of thinking changed. And since you are no longer thinking in that line, would you kill any of your relative should they abandon faith? **3rd time** 3 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Rilwayne001: 9:40pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:Okay. This verse doesnt refers to apostates, or does it? It refers to it, unless you can prove otherwise. Surah Yunus, Verse 99: وَلَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّكَ لَآمَنَ مَن فِي الْأَرْضِ كُلُّهُمْ جَمِيعًا أَفَأَنتَ تُكْرِهُ النَّاسَ حَتَّىٰ يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ And [thus it is:] had thy Sustainer so willed, all those who live on earth would surely have attained to faith, all of them: dost thou, then, think that thou couldst compel people to believe, 1 Like |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 9:45pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Rilwayne001: If it does agrees with Alkitab wa sunnah then we are obliged to follow it, we don't need to put in our own reasoning first in front of what Allah and his messenger commanded, this is the plain truth sire. Still doesn't change the fact that the writers of the hadith were not eye witness just like the writer of the Bible. This is the more reason why you need to study the science of hadith. The fact the Quran is followed by Bukhari makes the Quran more viable than it in all way. And so the Quran says"let those who reject faith reject, Allah (swt) will judge them" and the hadith says"kill all those who reject faith" isn't this outright contradiction? What do you understand by being judged? And since you are no longer thinking in that line, would you kill any of your relative should they abandon faith? **3rd time** Allah Knows best. 2 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 9:51pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Rilwayne001: The verse refers to the pagans of Makkah, who were not yet Muslims Surah Yunus, Verse 99: ThIs again refers to those that haven't believed yet. 4 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Rilwayne001: 9:55pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
lexiconkabir: Okay. What do you understand by being judged? Understand by being judged as how? One thing I know is that, the only judge is Allah (swt). We have no reason to take it upon ourselves.
Which means you are not sure, are you? 2 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Rilwayne001: 9:58pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
lexiconkabir: Okay 1 Like |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Rilwayne001: 10:01pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
@op, Seun The Quran says again: Surah An-Nisa, Verse 137: إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا ثُمَّ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا ثُمَّ ازْدَادُوا كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللَّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلَا لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلًا Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe (again), and (again) disbelieve, and go on increasing in disbelief; Allah will not forgive them, nor guide them on the (Right) Way. ^^^Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and again DISBELIEVE. if a Muslim rejects faith and is then killed for doing so how will he live to again BELIEVE and then DISBELIEVE. The atmosphere of this verse is that of free will and freedom of choice to everyone. If Allah wanted he would have said something about the punishment, if there was any, of those who reject Islam after accepting it. but Allah takes this to be clearly a private matter between them and Allah. What do you have to say? 17 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Empiree: 10:01pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
I am honestly forced to comment on this. I can't wait till end of Ramadan to respond. I decided to go offline because I wanted to avoid back to back talks, vain talks in this Blessed month of Ramadan. Back to topic, I DISAGREE with brother lexiconkabir. Respectively, you are very wrong dear brother. You make my stomach turned. I dont think i need to cite references further as rilwayne001 and others already did that. Brother lexiconkabir, first all, there is no way hadith can abrogate any verse of Quran....NO WAY. Do you agree? This verse STANDS and VALID until end of time. "THERE'S NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION" The problem you have and those scholars you quoted have is wrong methodology. Let's assume the hadith you quoted is valid. Have you ever heard of something called "system of meaning"?, which means you can not take the above hadith or any hadith in isolation. This is lazy man methodology. You and those scholars supposed to put together all the data in reference to the hadith, put them together to form harmonious whole and then derive a meaning. You and the scholars you claimed you support took the hadith in isolation. This is very wrong and dangerous. Now, let me explain the hadith to you if indeed it is true to begin with. The context of the hadith in reference to another hadith that you failed to cite in your #5 is when the prophet(saw) made the statement, it was in the time of war and if the apostate poses a threat to the community. So it is to mean that in that time when every man was a soldier at war and call to defend Muslim populace and then he joins the other side(enemy) and divulges the secrets of Muslim military to the enemy, then he's to be killed. This is clear case of treason. This is also general rule in any given nations today. There is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPULSION in Islam. You and your scholars go against Quran. The thing is, in Islam, there is no separation of Church(Mosque) and State. Therefore, if a Muslim openly renounces Islam and then saying unspeakable things against Islam which may prevent or lead people astray or speak against the state, this is considered treason. It is only then govt will act NOT individual. When such a person in punished in our modern time, non-Muslims do not look at it as treason but as religious repression. They failed proper investigation. As for your statement that Sahih hadith are ALL REVELATIONS, brother, it takes a very simply physics to dispel such mythology of yours. Yes, hadith is revelation also as reported by the prophet(saw) himself. But there is no where Allah guarantees protection of any religious Books or any books except Qur'an. Allah Knows Best 26 Likes 5 Shares |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by udatso: 10:08pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Empiree:Nice 3 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 10:16pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Rilwayne001: A sinner can as well suffer here on earth and the hereafter for his sins.
Allah is the supreme judge, but HE(azza wa jal) also sent down revelations (through ahadith and the Quran) which are called "hududullahi", so we derive judgements from these two weighty things. Which means you are not sure, are you? I don't have the right to kill anyone, what ever the court decides on the matter, then so be it, this was why i said Allah knows best. |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Lagusta(m): 10:44pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
@lexiconkabir It's people like you that make people believe islaam is a radical religion..... You have been hammering on that same Hadith since, bit you didn't even see mine that is also in saheeh al-bukhari.... Even if saheeh buhari is the most authentic source of Hadith, it would still have some weak and fabricated Hadith, remember bukhari is a human being prone to error... The prophet has once said that anyone who drags his lower garment, that portion is in the fire, but there are other Hadith which clearly states that rasuulullah dragged his lower garment, would he now enter the fire?? Subhaanallah!!!!! The Quran clearly stated "no compulsion in religion" this is the word of God here, so why hammering on one Hadith for Allah's sake..... My brother rilwayne also quoted lots of verses, but u still dey hammer on one Hadith, chaaaaii 8 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Alhajipablo(m): 10:47pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
I am beginning to reason with mudir Markaz Agege 3 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Antina(f): 10:51pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
lexiconkabir: I asked you a question but u never replied me, if para venture one of ur siblings stop being a muslim today, will u kill him or her? Why must u leave what Qur'an teaches and prophet and believe u must accept what one "Al-Buhari" reported (when, where, how) all in the name of Sahih hadith which was written after the demise of prophet (S.A.W). |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Antina(f): 10:55pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Alhajipablo: Am telling you, though am not into any Islamic sect, I try to seek knowledge because I want to know it not cos people condemn or accept it. just look at this again |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Antina(f): 10:57pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Lagusta: I tire ooo 1 Like |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 11:04pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Empiree: I see. I dont think i need to cite references further as rilway.ne001 and others already did that. Brother lexiconkab.ir, first all, there is no way hadith can abrogate any verse of Quran....NO WAY. Do you agree? All the verses they brought has been explained to them, that being said, i dont think i made the assertion that hadith can abrogate the Quran, i only made it Clear to them that Allah keeping silent on the worldly punishment for apostasy doesnt contradict the hadith that doesn't. This verse STANDS and VALID until end of time. yes, it will always be in the Quran, but this actually means, no one should be forced to accept islam, this doesn't rrefer to those that have believed then apostatized. What are you guys even saying? So any tom dick and harry can enter and leave the religion of Allah as he or she wills? Now, let me explain the hadith to you if indeed it is true to begin with. The context of the hadith in reference to another hadith that you failed to cite in your #5 is when the prophet(saw) made the statement, it was in the time of war and if the apostate pose a threat to the community. So it is to mean that in that time when every man was a soldier at war and call to defend Muslim populace and then he joins the other side(enemy) and divulges the secrets of Muslim military to the enemy, then he's to be killed. This is clear case of treason. This is also general rule in any given nations today. You have to prove this, by giving me reference to the "other ahadith" There is ABSOLUTELY NO COMPULSION in Islam. You and your scholars go against Quran. Your opinion As for you statement that Sahih hadith are ALL REVELATIONS, brother, it takes a very simply physics to dispel such mythology of yours. Yes, hadith is revelation also as reported by the prophet(saw) himself. But there is no where Allah guarantees protection of any religious Books or any books except Qur'an. Yes no book is as healthy as the Qur'an, but if an hadith has been proven to be authentic, i see no reason why it should not be followed. ALLAHU KNOWS BEST. 2 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Alhajipablo(m): 11:08pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Antina:Yes; I realized that the more I seek knowledge about Islam the more I understand it, I am even reading something about Albuhari and the salafis/Ahlul hadeeth online now which is making a lot of sense. |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 11:13pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Antina: I replied this, i said, i don't have the right to kill any one, whatever the court decides is what will be followed Why must u leave what Qur'an teaches and prophet and believe u must accept what one "Al-Buhari" reported (when, where, how) all in the name of Sahih hadith which was written after the demise of prophet (S.A.W). If i may ask you, where can the teachings of the prophet bw found? |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 11:19pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
Lagusta: Ya Akhi, we dont base our rulings of Islam due to way non-muslims will feel about it. |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by ademoladeji(m): 11:35pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
In order of Importance... 1. QURAN 2. QURAN 3. QURAN 4. QURAN 5. HADITH 6. The END 3 Likes 3 Shares |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 11:42pm On Jun 22, 2016 |
^^ This doesnt change the fact that rulings are also taken from the authentic sayings of our beloved prophet (S.A.W) |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Antina(f): 3:01am On Jun 23, 2016 |
lexiconkabir: How can u wait for court to decide when "Al-buhari "reported" prophet says u should kill the "apostate" however, he never "reported" to wait for court ruling. Ur question now In hadith (prophet says). All these "reported" cases may be complete or incomplete sometimes, accept the one that correlate with the teachings of Prophet and ignore the ones that does not, I beg. (As this yoruba saying goes: (Oro okere, ti o ba le kan, a din kan). 8 Likes 1 Share |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Antina(f): 3:11am On Jun 23, 2016 |
Empiree: Thank you!! Let them read Qur'an. Qur'an first. 2 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 3:30am On Jun 23, 2016 |
Antina: Do you know thats irrational of you? The judge who has learnt the sharee'ah of Allah perfectly, should be the one to judge and not me, why are you so fixated on this? All your aim is for you to see me say "yes! I will kill him/her", SMH. Ur question now Where did you get the teachings of Muhammad(pbuh), of which you want yo correlate these hadiths with? |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 3:54am On Jun 23, 2016 |
Lagusta: This is an exceptional case brother, the companion in question fought the battle of badr along side our noble prophet, and Allah the most merciful had already declared that "Do what you like, for i have granted you Paradise" to the participants of that battle. |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Antina(f): 4:43am On Jun 23, 2016 |
lexiconkabir: Mr Lexiconkabir, I rest my case here cos further answers may lead to saying something that is not so good and I wouldn't want that. Salaam. |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by eitsei(m): 5:17am On Jun 23, 2016 |
Alhajipablo:I've always reasoned with him but one thing I notice is that all these modern alfas, self acclaimed salafis the way they talk about him sometimes, may Allah help us. When mudir markaz talked about hijab and niqab they changed the whole thing saying what he didn't say and called him lot of things.... What people like lexiconkabir should know is that in a society like Nigeria which is not a totally Islamic state some of these rules cannot stand because if you carry out the ruling of killing someone who turned against the religion what will people of other faiths say? We all know how some people are already damaging the reputation of Islam if not for the words of Allah that will always come to pass that says 'the word of Islam will always be higher', that's why we are still having people embracing Islam..... Please brothers and sisters we need to be careful with the way we do our da'wah o... Let us remember this verse that says "ادعو الى سبيل الربك بالحكمة والموعظة حسنة” Allah says "call people on to the way of your Lord (Islam) with wisdom and good preaching" now tell me how do you expect a non Muslim viewing this thread to accept Islam if we keep talking about killing! Killing!... Islam is peaceful and the most tolerant religion Salaam alaekum. 10 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 5:30am On Jun 23, 2016 |
Antina: You already getting provoked due to simple questions? Anyway its fine, you shouldnt go further if you don't want to, Salam. |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 5:32am On Jun 23, 2016 |
eitsei: Of course i aint saying that this ruling can be applied in Nigeria here(being a country that applies secular laws) however in the sharee'ah of Islam, thats the ruling. 3 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by eitsei(m): 5:35am On Jun 23, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:you should have said that in your posts... Give comprehensive details of society like Nigeria and others that are totally Islamic state 1 Like |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by Nobody: 5:41am On Jun 23, 2016 |
eitsei: The Questioner asked in the holistic sense, not in a particular case, so i have to give a general reply, BTW i noticed that all the people that disagreed with me on this thread did so just for the sake of "what will the non-muslims think" just like you also said, and i ask the question, are you practicing islam for them? 4 Likes |
Re: What's The Proper Punishment For A Muslim Apostate? by eitsei(m): 5:46am On Jun 23, 2016 |
lexiconkabir:lol..you don't give that kind of general reply to a non Muslim next time and no, I'm not practicing islam for them but we should let people see the beauty of Islam in us... Shikena 2 Likes |
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