~Sauron~:

U don't need to overflog this issue. . . .

There is a wide gulf between fans' expectations and Berbatov's end product.

he doesn't do his job well and thus is a failure.

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

@Ruudie
If you paid 30mil for something i doubt you would throw a handkerchief at it never mind a boot! Simply put Fergie's hands are tied

Your analogy on Eduardo is so flawed i would blame it on the alcohol.
1. Eduardo was not worth 30mil
2. He was yet to play in Western Europe never mind the EPL i really don't see where these parallel lines meet

debosky:

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

You are a goat!!!!
I already said people who think Berbatov does not add value to United are muppets.
U can consider yourself one. . . . .

Berbatov is NOT lazy. . . . . .I can argue that till thy kingdom come.

~Sauron~:

You are a goat!!!!
I already said people who think Berbatov does not add value to United are muppets.
U can consider yourself one. . . . .

Berbatov is NOT lazy. . . . . .I can argue that till thy kingdom come.

You can. . . .but as always you don't make sense.

debosky:

You can. . . .but as always you don't make sense.

debosky:

You can. . . .but as always you don't make sense.

But i have provided STATS that made you look like a plonker that you are.

When Tevez was at United, Berbatov made more tackles than him.
Even now that Tevez is in Man City, Berbatov has made more tackles than him.

So i put it to you to prove Berbatov is LAZY or admit you are the biggest PLONKER this forum has seen since Folahann.

MrCrackles:

I wont say yes. . . .Very premature to fully rate Kaka in Madrid colours, at this stage to be honest
The issue here is Berbatov and he is overrated plus he aint worth half the cheddars paid for him. . .
Good pro no disrepect but has been a flop at United. . . At least so far
When did he join?
How many seasons do you need to bed in nicely and rediscover a blistering form pre-United?

depends on ur definition of blistering form. . . . . . note, we didn't particularly buy Berba to come to OT and be saviour or guardian angel for the side. We already had a stable team, no worries or anything, like barren season or relegation threat - liken it to Barca's signing of Ibra, it wasn't warranted by a crisis or rank of a top striker or quality players.

although outsiders might see differently, but i keep insisting that MUFC is satisfied with Berba becuz he's met the minimum requirement of his signing - joining up, blending and contributing positively no matter how little.
Of course, no player, xpecially the big name players, is satisfied to be just on the bandwagon - they all want to explode and prove their worth & i'm sure Berba is as disappointed as many out there that he has not reached the peak of his undeniable potentials but u have to understand that from a MAN UTD perspective, as long as things keep going well, he will not be deemed as a waste even if all he manages is 1 goal a season scored TH12 style - if UTD win a title or two, who would frigging care!

RuuDie:

depends on your definition of blistering form. . . . . . note, we didn't particularly buy Berba to come to OT and be saviour or guardian angel for the side. We already had a stable team, no worries or anything, like barren season or relegation threat - liken it to Barca's signing of Ibra, it wasn't warranted by a crisis or rank of a top striker or quality players.

Ruudie, you are too intelligent. . . . .This is the best post of the day.

United(a serial EPL champion + European Champions League) signed Berbatov and people expect him to win us what again?
A team that scored 99% in the previous season bought a new player. . . . .The only thing he can add to the team is 1% to become 100% but idiots like Debosky expect him to add 20% to make it 119% even though the marks available are 100%.

It beats me.

RuuDie:

depends on your definition of blistering form. . . . . . note, we didn't particularly buy Berba to come to OT and be saviour or guardian angel for the side. We already had a stable team, no worries or anything, like barren season or relegation threat - liken it to Barca's signing of Ibra, it wasn't warranted by a crisis or rank of a top striker or quality players.

Interesting comparison - how many goals has Ibra scored for Barca?  

although outsiders might see differently, but i keep insisting that MUFC is satisfied with Berba becuz he's met the minimum requirement of his signing - joining up, blending and contributing positively no matter how little.
Of course, no player, xpecially the big name players, is satisfied to be just on the bandwagon - they all want to explode and prove their worth & i'm sure Berba is as disappointed as many out there that he has not reached the peak of his undeniable potentials but u have to understand that from a MAN UTD perspective, as long as things keep going well, he will not be deemed as a waste even if all he manages is 1 goal a season scored TH12 style - if UTD win a title or two, who would frigging care!

So as long as Utd keep winning titles, there is no flop at the club and no player is deemed a waste. . . fantastic reasoning. I am highly disappointed in you RuuDie.

RuuDie:

depends on your definition of blistering form. . . . . . note, we didn't particularly buy Berba to come to OT and be saviour or guardian angel for the side.

You knew wat Berba was like at Tottenham but agreed he didnt entirely star in the same role at United. . .
Ya'all Berba "ball's slurpers" {No pun intended} keep saying you didnt buy Berba to do this or that. . .
What did ya buy him for?
What did ya overpaid for?

Sauron,
Still waiting on why Fergie would drop him to the bench for critical,huge games against Chelsea and Arsenal.
Tactical reasons?Still looks like a DUD to me.
Besides, we're not talking about starts here.Total appearances is what we are discussing.
If United play a different way from Spurs,then why was he bought?It would mean he doesn't fit into United's plans since he wouldn't be needed.
Ok,gone are the days when a player's number reflected his position.but we all know he wouldn't be given 9 if he was a defender.

debosky:

Interesting comparison - how many goals has Ibra scored for Barca?  

Ibra is a poacher for Barcelona. . . . . .A straight swap for Samuel Etoo unless you want us to believe it is Thierry Henry or Messi that is their centre forward. Daft analogy yet again.

So as long as Utd keep winning titles, there is no flop at the club and no player is deemed a waste. . . fantastic reasoning. I am highly disappointed in you RuuDie.

Of course. . . . , Winning is the name of the game.
A team cannot win 3 EPL titles with a buncha flops in their ranks.
It is a massive disgrace that Arsenal(a flawless team that packs 20 world class players) have not won a dime in 5 seasons.

Eastbay:

Sauron,
Still waiting on why Fergie would drop him to the bench for critical,huge games against Chelsea and Arsenal.

Berbatov was injured against Chelsea. . . . .Check your facts.
Against Arsenal, the reason was tactical. We played a flat 4-3-3 to match Arsenal's new formation.

Tactical reasons?Still looks like a DUD to me.
Besides, we're not talking about starts here.Total appearances is what we are discussing.

Start is very crucial cos a starting player bar emergency will cop more minutes than a sub.

If United play a different way from Spurs,then why was he bought?It would mean he doesn't fit into United's plans since he wouldn't be needed.
Ok,gone are the days when a player's number reflected his position.but we all know he wouldn't be given 9 if he was a defender.

1) He was bought to improve our ball retention in the final third.

2) Why would he not fit into United's plans. Are Man Utd Tottenham?
What has Berba's contribution for SPURS gotta do with Man Utd? In SPURS, Berbatov and Robbie Keane are the leaders.
When Keane was absent, Berbatov took penalties and freekicks for SPURS.
In Man Utd, Berbatov is not even in the top ten of people to take set pieces. . . .We have Rooney, Giggs, Nani, Carrick and Anderson.
His role/responsibility has changed. . . . .He joined a big team not ARSENAL.

3) Arsenal gave William Gallas 10. . . . . . .Is he a striker?
Was Boulahrouz not wearing 9 for Chelsea at a point? What has number gotta do with it?

~Sauron~:

Ibra is a poacher for Barcelona. . . . . .A straight swap for Samuel Etoo unless you want us to believe it is Thierry Henry or Messi that is their centre forward. Daft analogy yet again.

Again, what was Berba bought for? Was he bought as a striker or a midfielder and what do strikers do?

debosky:

Again, what was Berba bought for? Was he bought as a striker or a midfielder and what do strikers do?

He was bought as a false 9. . . .A second striker. . . . .A supporting striker.
Rooney was promoted to a centre-forward as soon as Louis Saha left for Everton.

Berbatov plays far too deep to be a poacher like Ibrahimovic.
In Fergie's words. . . . "I want Rooney to play with his face to goal rather than his back to goal.
You need one player more advanced and then the other can move around him."

A false 9? 

I think you mean he was a universal deception a la Saha.

Berba was bought to score goals - simple. The only reason he is being allowed to play 'second striker' is that Fergie has seen that the dude's effectiveness at the top has become abysmal - all he is now good for is to roam about aimlessly and score the occasional goal or make the periodic flick.

debosky:

A false 9? 
I think you mean he was a universal deception a la Saha. 

Saha is better than Eduardo and Van Persie.
False 9 = A supporting striker.

Berba was bought to score goals - simple. The only reason he is being allowed to play 'second striker' is that Fergie has seen that the dude's effectiveness at the top has become abysmal - all he is now good for is to roam about aimlessly and score the occasional goal or make the periodic flick.

He has never played as a centre forward for Man Utd.
Fergie wanted a new Eric Cantona. . . . . . .He knew what he wanted in Berbatov and he paid top dollar for him.
Unless you have proof to show us that Cantona was used as a centre-forward, you have shown another form of idiocy yet again.

How is this so difficult to grasp?

Berbatov in Spurs. . . . .Poacher
Berbatov in Bulgaria. . . Poacher
Berbatov in Man Utd. . . 2nd striker.

~Sauron~:

He has never played as a centre forward for Man Utd.
Fergie wanted a new Eric Cantona. . . . . . .He knew what he wanted in Berbatov and he paid top dollar for him.
Unless you have proof to show us that Cantona was used as a centre-forward, you have shown another form of idiocy yet again.

Provide a quote saying he was bought to be the new Cantona. . . it is simply a figment of your imagination.

debosky:

Provide a quote saying he was bought to be the new Cantona. . . it is simply a figment of your imagination.

My thoughts exactamundo!

MrCrackles:

You knew wat Berba was like at Tottenham but agreed he didnt entirely star in the same role at United. . .
Ya'all Berba "ball's slurpers" {No pun intended} keep saying you didnt buy Berba to do this or that. . .
What did ya buy him for?
What did ya overpayed for?

note that spurs is not UTD. . . . Forlan was here and couldn't put a foot right but off to spain he went and you know the rest.


Read the entire post and get the message. . . . . its not a comparison between Berba & Ibra or Barca, UTD. Its more of why me personally & a majority of UTD fans will not agree with the opinion that Berba's buy is a waste.
Same way, gunners wouldn't rile Adebayor or Bendtner if the going was very good.

For example, when Diaby scored an own goal against UTD many of y'all wanted his head on a plate. . . . all of a sudden, he's now the golden boy!

If UTD was facing hard times or in a crisis, you'll hear all these criticisms from the very fans that support. But right now, even if Berba doesn't score again till his career ends, nobody is yarning anything!

debosky:

Provide a quote saying he was bought to be the new Cantona. . . it is simply a figment of your imagination.

There you have it, MUPPET!!!
This comment was made a day before Berbatov's first LEAGUE appearance for Man Utd against Liverpool at Anfield.

Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson has happily compared Dimitar Berbatov to legend Eric Cantona.

Ahead of today's clash at Liverpool, Ferguson said: "I've been pleased with [Dimitar] Berbatov's form this season, he's responded well to playing all the time. He reminds me of Eric Cantona, the way he takes his time when other players would hurry.

"And like Eric, although he can do the flicks and first time passes very well, he knows when a short, simple pass is the best option. I always used to say Eric was the best ever passer of the simple pass."

RuuDie:

Same way, gunners wouldn't rile Adebayor or Bendtner if the going was very good.

For example, when Diaby scored an own goal against UTD many of y'all wanted his head on a plate. . . . all of a sudden, he's now the golden boy!

Have you been on the Arsenal thread recently? Even after three consecutive clean sheets, people are still castigating Almunia so this isn't about when the going is good. No one is satisfied with Eduardo at Arsenal even after two consecutive 3-0 wins so what are you on about?

I don't buy this 'going is good' argument - a player performing below expectations will be criticised, simple.

RuuDie:

note that spurs is not UTD. . . . Forlan was here and couldn't put a foot right but off to spain he went and you know the rest.


Read the entire post and get the message. . . . . its not a comparison between Berba & Ibra or Barca, UTD. Its more of why me personally & a majority of UTD fans will not agree with the opinion that Berba's buy is a waste.
Same way, gunners wouldn't rile Adebayor or Bendtner if the going was very good.

For example, when Diaby scored an own goal against UTD many of y'all wanted his head on a plate. . . . all of a sudden, he's now the golden boy!

If UTD was facing hard times or in a crisis, you'll hear all these criticisms from the very fans that support. But right now, even if Berba doesn't score again till his career ends, nobody is yarning anything!

Speak for yourself and the micro-fraction of UTD supporters who are cool with the acquisition of Berba as well as his progress. . . .
If Berba turn in a well grafted shift consistently, i will be cool with it. . .
If ya didnt overpay for the Bulgarian Molotov, i will be cool with it. . . .
Until then i wont be cool. . .

TRIO BOOST FOR MAN UTD

Sir Alex Ferguson delivered some more festive cheer on Tuesday with the news that several Reds are back, or close to returning, from injury.

Following Rafael's comeback against Hull, Gary Neville is the latest to bolster United's defence and could feature on Wednesday against Wigan.

Paul Scholes missed the win over the Tigers after suffering a kick on the hip in training, but is fit for the visit of Roberto Martinez's side, as is Anderson. Nani is the only injured forward.

Sir Alex also confirmed at his pre-match press conference that Jonny Evans and Rio Ferdinand will be back in action soon, with John O'Shea due to return a little later.

Meanwhile, Edwin van der Sar is has been told to stay in the Netherlands with his wife, who is in hospital.

More to follow from Carrington. . . . .

Suddenly everything is looking bright again. . . . .

Rio, O'Shea, Neville all back?
It's looking like another Man Utd title yet again.

FFS, where is Owen Hargreaves??

Saroun,I'll take you up on this
Against

~Sauron~:

How is this so difficult to grasp?

Berbatov in Spurs. . . . .Poacher
Berbatov in Bulgaria. . . Poacher
Berbatov in Man Utd. . . 2nd striker.

Why isn't Fergie confident enough to make him your "poacher",especially since in the Bulgaria & spurs case,he seems to be delivering properly?
I bet my life he (Fergie) is scared to try it.The results would be only a DISASTER.

Eastbay:

Saroun,I'll take you up on this
Why isn't Fergie confident enough to make him your "poacher",especially since in the Bulgaria & spurs case,he seems to be delivering properly?
I bet my life he  (Fergie) is scared to try it.The results would be only a DISASTER.

Fergie was looking at where United needed improvement and he realised we gave the ball away too easily in the final third.
He bought Berbatov. A striker with a cool head, a player who does not hurry when others do.
In Man Utd, the supporting striker role is what fits Berbatov the most because you cannot ALWAYS rely on Rooney to play intelligent passes.

If you play Berbatov as a poacher, the passes from Rooney won't get to him and he will starve!!!

debosky:

Have you been on the Arsenal thread recently? Even after three consecutive clean sheets, people are still castigating Almunia so this isn't about when the going is good. No one is satisfied with Eduardo at Arsenal even after two consecutive 3-0 wins so what are you on about?
I don't buy this 'going is good' argument - a player performing below expectations will be criticised, simple.

your expectation might not match that of the club an its fans. . . . .  granted Berba can play far better than he does currently; everybody & i'm sure, even he knows this and would want nothing more than to change it but truth be told, he's not as awful as y'all wanna sound him to be. . . . furthermore, UTD at this stage, would take whatever he has to offer wholeheartedly & hope for an improvement becuz in all honesty they can afford it; a luxury not so many clubs have with their big-money buys.

BTW,
You know very well that the Cantona reference was a stretch.
Cantona was aggressive,result-oriented,and scored the occassional crucial goal.
None of which Berbasoft has been able to do.
Are you supposed to retain the ball in the final third?
I thought you were supposed to be more incisive there.I thought the midfield is where retention counts.
I still don't see why a supposed striker (whetehr true or false)would have anything to do with ball retention.

~Sauron~:

Fergie was looking at where United needed improvement and he realised we gave the ball away too easily in the final third.
He bought Berbatov. A striker with a cool head, a player who does not hurry when others do.
In Man Utd, the supporting striker role is what fits Berbatov the most because you cannot ALWAYS rely on Rooney to play intelligent passes.

If you play Berbatov as a poacher, the passes from Rooney won't get to him and he will starve!!!

I think the first part of your statement isn't entirely true.
We had an awesome attack 2007/8,pre-Berbatov.I don't see where the giving away of the ball happened.
I think Berba was brought in to take the scoring load of CR7 and give another scoring option.Because if anything happened to him back then,we didn't have much else of a scoring threat in Rooney and Tevez.
That's the way I see it.Any other explanation doesn't convince me.

Eastbay:

BTW,
You know very well that the Cantona reference was a stretch.
Cantona was aggressive,result-oriented,and scored the occassional crucial goal.
None of which Berbasoft has been able to do.
Are you supposed to retain the ball in the final third?

Another perceptive deduction. Will a languid and often sulking Berba ever be the driving force and heart of this Utd side like Cantona was? Not in a billion light years.

He doesn't have the bottle, neither does he have the personality to be that type of player.

I thought you were supposed to be more incisive there.I thought the midfield is where retention counts.
I still don't see why a supposed striker (whetehr true or false)would have anything to do with ball retention.

No - Berba holds on to the ball in the final third so he can pass to Rooney to score - ask again how many of the goals by Rooney this season have come from this move.

We had an awesome attack 2007/8,pre-Berbatov.I don't see where the giving away of the ball happened.
I think Berba was brought in to take the scoring load of CR7 and give another scoring option.Because if anything happened to him back then,we didn't have much else of a scoring threat in Rooney and Tevez.
That's the way I see it.Any other explanation doesn't convince me.

Precisely - Ronaldo was scoring like hell and was bound to leave in a season or two. . . .hence the need for a proven, premiership calibre goal scorer - enter Berbatov with two seasons of 20+ goal hauls.

Having an ability to pass like Cantona doesn't now mean this is his PRIMARY role - he is in the side to score goals period. If not, then Utd only have Rooney to score goals.

Eastbay:

BTW,
You know very well that the Cantona reference was a stretch.
Cantona was aggressive,result-oriented,and scored the occassional crucial goal.
None of which Berbasoft has been able to do.

Cantona was aggressive? U make me laugh!!!
He was aggressive with players and fans who say rubbish about him.
There was nothing aggressive in the brand of footie he plays.

How crucial was the goal Berbatov scored against Bolton last season in Reebok stadium?
What about the lone strikes against Boro and Sunderland at OT last season?
These goals kept us above Liverpool in the league. . . . . Berbatov has scored more crucial goals.

Are you supposed to retain the ball in the final third?

Yes!!!
Retaining it will keep the opposition from having the ball.
It is no secret that United conceded fewer goals last season and the ball retention meant less stress for our defence.
With Berbatov on the pitch, our defence don't come under pressure.

For all Ronaldo's industry, he gave the ball away more than hurting the opposition.
Something Fergie criticised him for even though he scored 42 goals.
In football, retention is the most important thing. When your opponents don't have the ball, they cannot hurt you.

I thought you were supposed to be more incisive there.I thought the midfield is where retention counts.
I still don't see why a supposed striker (whetehr true or false)would have anything to do with ball retention.

Berbatov does have something to do with retention.
U cannot hurry him to play a pass when the whole area is crowded a la Rooney and Tevez(especially).
Tevez gets lost when put under pressure thus giving the ball away and hurting his own team. Berbatov corrected that.
It is no coincidence we kept 14 clean sheets after Berbatov's arrival and our AWAY form in Europe has improved massively.

I think the first part of your statement isn't entirely true.
We had an awesome attack 2007/8,pre-Berbatov.I don't see where the giving away of the ball happened.

Awesome attack, YES.
What about goals conceded via counter attacks from our opponents.
Arsenal pegged us back TWICE at the Emirates because our ATTACK were generous with giving the ball away NEEDLESSLY.

I think Berba was brought in to take the scoring load of CR7 and give another scoring option.Because if anything happened to him back then,we didn't have much else of a scoring threat in Rooney and Tevez.
That's the way I see it.Any other explanation doesn't convince me.

The way you see it is different from the way Sir Alex sees it.
He wanted a replica of Cantona. Cantona did not share the load of goal scoring with our strikers back in the days.
I keep telling anti-Berba groups that until you sort yourselves out and realise what you want from Berba is different to what Fergie wants, your heartbroken moments shall persist.

whilst not making any excuses for berba, but there is a myriad of cogent reasons why someone who scores 20+ here can come and score less elsewhere. . . . its a dynamic system and there's so many different factors & variables are in play.



Eastbay,
if u don't keep the ball in any part of the field, then how will u score. . . .  ball retention here simply implies keeping possession and holding off the opposition till support arrives when necessary - u saw how zamora did that against us so effectively.
Now, don't get me wrong. . . i'm not saying that's all Berba should be or is doing but it is an integral part of UTD's attacking play!

debosky:

Another perceptive deduction. Will a languid and often sulking Berba ever be the driving force and heart of this Utd side like Cantona was? Not in a billion light years.

Cantona was never the driving force. Shut up you know nada about Man Utd.
Roy Keane, Mark Hughes, Steve Bruce were the driving force.

He doesn't have the bottle, neither does he have the personality to be that type of player.
No - Berba holds on to the ball in the final third so he can pass to Rooney to score - ask again how many of the goals by Rooney this season have come from this move.

He doesn't have to be Rooney.
Berbatov holds the ball and plays an intelligent pass to anyone in the box to score.
The kind of quality he gives, he does not get em from his team-mates. That is the difference.

Precisely - Ronaldo was scoring like hell and was bound to leave in a season or two. . . .hence the need for a proven, premiership calibre goal scorer - enter Berbatov with two seasons of 20+ goal hauls.

For a selfish Portugese player who attempts 200 shots per season, it is very normal for him to score like hell.
If you factor his freekicks, penalties, etc. He should be scoring more.
Adebayor's conversion rate was miles better than Ronaldo's in the season CR7 scored 42 goals.

Having an ability to pass like Cantona doesn't now mean this is his PRIMARY role - he is in the side to score goals period. If not, then Utd only have Rooney to score goals.

Having the ability to pass like Cantona is his primary role. The goals is the bonus.
Fergie has given Rooney the role of stepping into Ronaldo's shoes. He did not give Berbatov that responsibility.

RuuDie:

whilst not making any excuses for berba, but there is a myriad of cogent reasons why someone who scores 20+ here can come and score less elsewhere. . . . its a dynamic system and there's so many different factors & variables are in play.

Pretending to be igorant, in Berba's case what are the factors and variables