https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BaQunfXPpE

Do you agree with that Empiree? You can watch from 20mins of the video and see crazy stuffs, then tell me if you agree with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sg-cKZdDTs

How bout that?

I am not even going to quote you. I guess you need to read your highlighted (bold) post up there. It is clear from that already. Anything else is a waste of time. There is lots of knowledge today but devoids of WISDOM. These are what you kicked against when you first started:



Group dhikr
Loud dhikr
Group dua



It seems you didnt find evidence for them in the beginning was the reason you kicked against them. Now, slowly but surely you backtracked. I provided evidences for group dhikr but you cancelled it out. From your bolded post up there(today), it is clear we can deduce it is gathering of dhikr AFTER salah. But scholars you posted given their explanations what they think it means, is their opinion. Hence, you can not fault opinion of other scholars who insist it is gathering of dhikr. I get the description of what those scholars you posted are saying.

Correct me if I am wrong please


They seemed to be saying there is GATHERING of people in the masjid after salah and making LOUD DHIKR when Ibn Masu'd heard them. Hence, that's agreeing with what i have been saying. However, scholars you posted shied away from saying "gathering" or "group". They only mentioned loud dhikr. So if Ibn Mas'ud(RA) heard bunch of muslims in the mosque making dhikr together, what's that? individual?. It seems to me however from descriptions of scholars you stated meant they making loud dhikr individually and not unison. This is really a twist. You are not really disagreeing with me but you chose to.

You also have kicked against making dua together earlier in your posts but i could also see you dont have problem with it. You keep going back and forth. Now you saw my comment in another thread about making dua together and you kicked against it again. What Else do you want?. How would children learn FOR INSTANCE istighfar, subhanallah, alhamdulilah, Allahu Akbar if not group dhikr?. Be reasonable for a second!. It is after we learned it in group and fluent in it before we say it individually and quietly. Also, i learned sura Yasin off hand by group dhikr and we said in both unison and loud, individually and loud at age 12. But now that im a grown, i dont need to do group dhikr if i dont want to but condemning it which is what you're doing is creating FITNA and kicking against the sunnah.

Now read this,


*** the descriptions given by scholars you posted above about people making dhikr loud (individually i assumed),

*** group dhikr made in unison (loud)

*** individual dhikr (loud or silent)

are all MOSTLY done by the SUFIS. Deny it if you want. I pray at "salafi masjid", i:e people of your same ideology. NOt for once i heard or seen them do the first description favored by your scholars. You are all a joke.

Remember DHIKR is REMEMBRANCE of Allah. Now, if GROUP DHIKR (UNISON) also known as assemblies of dhikr is bid'a, are we performing bid'a when we go to Eld in the morning, we sit and we all SHOUT OUT LOUD in UNISON "Allahu Akbar Allahu Akbar La ilaha ila Allah Allahu Akbar".

Is that DHIKR or NOT?.

Is that assembly or group or not?

Is it bid'a or SUNNAH

Or you want to claim that's exception?

Note, I am ONLY debating GROUP dhikr generally. I am not talking about specific group or individual what they might be doing therein that may be crazy. That's another case.

Ok too much allegations which i won't bother myself with, i have passed my message, whoever wills, he should listen or not, one majoe problen with you is you have a hard understanding, you say what someone else did not, and i believe its deliberate, which is why i won't quote you..


GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS BID'AH KHALAS, EXCEPT IF THAT GATHERING IS FOR DISSEMINATING KNOWLEGDE. THE PROPHET DIDNT DO IT, I WON'T DO IT.

lexiconkabir:





I have told you what i mean by new method, group dhikr is bid'ah.

What is GROUP?

by dictionary, it means: a number of people or things that are located close together or are considered or classed together. It aslo means
BATCH

You said it is bid'a


What are you doing when you go to Eld?. You sit and you all make dhikr before salat eld commences, right?. Is that not group? It is bid'a?.

You said UNISON dhikr is bid'a but on Eld day, we sit and make dhikr in UNISON. It is bid'a right?.

The after we finish salat Eld, we remain seated for Khutba, right?. That, i can say is "group of knowledge". It is both Sunnah. Twist ALL you want. And why only Salafi scholars deviated out of 1.6 billion?. JOKE!


Keep twisting and deceiving yourself. In this post of yours you still back n forth to confuse me but i won't be confused


Group also means BATCH. For instance, mosques that are located in the metropolitan area usually have lots and lots of people. Mosque can not contain all of them. So the first batch (group) sit and make GROUP UNISON DHIKR, the second, the third and fourth like that where i usually pray Eld. They are bld'a?

lexiconkabir:


[size=13pt]GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS BID'AH[/size] KHALAS, EXCEPT IF THAT GATHERING IS FOR DISSEMINATING KNOWLEGDE. THE PROPHET DIDNT DO IT, I WON'T DO IT.

I guess you do your Eld in different form. Dhikr on Eld while sitting is UNISON is BID"A?


This is in GROUP and UNISON. It Is BID"A (INNOVATION)

[size=15pt]"Allahu Akbar (3x) La ilaha Ilallah, wa Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar wa lillahil hamd"[/size]

lexiconkabir:


[size=15pt]GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS BID'AH[/size]

I guess you do your Eld in different form. Dhikr on Eld while sitting is UNISON is BID"A?


This is in GROUP and UNISON. It Is BID"A (INNOVATION) [size=20pt]?[/size]

"Allahu Akbar (3x) La ilaha Ilallah, wa Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar wa lillahil hamd"


This is UNIVERSALLY accepted SUNNAH. If it's VALID and SUNNATIC on the two Eids, it is SUNNAH EVERYDAY, ANYTIME and EVERYWHERE. This rubbishes "he said, she said" "ahadith" you have presented as "proofs"


Oh I see. I guess GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON is sunnah ONLY twice (2x) a year.


You gonna have to present your evidence for that.

On that i will give you what shaykh ibn baz said in reply to a shaylh in saudi who ruled it permissible, i am quoting shaykh ibn baz word for word before you accuse me of twisting unjustly.


Al-Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baz (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

[b]Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, and peace and blessings be upon Prophet Muhammad and all his family and Companions.

I have studied what was published by the respected Shaykh, Ahmad ibn Muhammad Jamal (may Allah help him to do that which pleases Him) in one of the local newspapers, in which he says that he finds odd the ban on takbeer in unison in the mosque before the ‘Eid prayer because it is regarded as an innovation which must be stopped. In his article, al-Shaykh Ahmad tries to prove that takbeer in unison is not an innovation and that it is not permissible to ban it, and his opinion is supported by some writers. Because of the fear that this matter may cause confusion for those who do not know the truth, we have to explain that the basic principle with regard to the takbeer on the night before ‘Eid and before the ‘Eid prayer of ‘Eid al-Fitr after Ramadan, and during the first ten days of Dhu’l-Hijjah, and on the days of al-tashreeq, is that it is prescribed at these great times and that it has a great deal of virtue, because Allah says concerning the takbeer on ‘Eid al-Fitr (interpretation of the meaning):

“(He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allah [i.e. to say Takbeer (Allahu Akbar: Allah is the Most Great)] for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him.”

[al-Baqarah 2:185]

And He says about the first ten days of Dhu’l-Hijjah and the days of al-tashreeq (interpretation of the meaning):

“That they may witness things that are of benefit to them (i.e. reward of Hajj in the Hereafter, and also some worldly gain from trade), and mention the Name of Allah on appointed days (i.e. 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th day of Dhul‑Hijjah), over the beast of cattle that He has provided for them (for sacrifice).”

[al-Hajj 22:28]

“And remember Allah during the appointed Days.”

[al-Baqarah 2:203]

What is included in the dhikr that is prescribed on these known days is both takbeer in general and specific takbeer, as is indicated by the Sunnah and the actions of the early Muslims (the salaf). The description of the takbeer that is prescribed is that each Muslim should say takbeer by himself on his own, raising his voice enough so that the people can hear him and follow his example and be reminded by it. As for the innovated takbeer in unison, that is when a group of people -- two or more -- raise their voices in saying takbeer together, so they start together and end together in unison and in a certain manner.

There is no basis for doing this and there is no evidence to support it, so it is an innovation in the manner of takbeer for which Allah has not sent down any authority. So the one who denounces takbeer done in this manner is in the right, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever introduces something into this matter of ours that is not part of it will have it rejected” (narrated by Muslim), i.e., it is rejected and is not prescribed. And he (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Beware of newly invented matters, for every newly invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is a going astray.” The takbeer in unison is a newly invented matter, so it is an innovation. If what the people do is contrary to shariah then it must be stopped and denounced, because the acts of worship are tawqeefi (i.e., limited to what is mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah) and nothing is prescribed therein except what is indicated by the Quran and Sunnah. As for people's views and opinions, they cannot be taken as proof if they go against the shar’i evidence. Similarly, acts of worship cannot be proven on the basis of al-masalih al-mursalah (i.e., that which serves the interests of the Muslim community). Acts of worship can only be proven with a text from the Quran or Sunnah, or definitive scholarly consensus.

What is prescribed is for each Muslim to say takbeer in the manner prescribed and proven according to the shar’i evidence, which is to say takbeer individually.

Takbeer in unison was denounced and banned by al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraheem, the mufti of Saudi Arabia (may Allah have mercy on him), and he issued a fatwa (verdict) concerning that. I have issued more than one fatwa stating that it is not allowed, and a fatwa stating that it is not allowed was also issued by the scholars of the Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas.

Al-Shaykh Hammood ibn ‘Abd-Allah al-Tuwaijri (may Allah have mercy on him) wrote an important essay denouncing and banning it, which has been printed and is in circulation. In this essay he quotes sufficient evidence to show that takbeer in unison is not allowed, praise be to Allah. As for what our brother al-Shaykh Ahmad quoted about the actions of ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) and the people in Mina, this does not prove anything, because what he (may Allah be pleased with him) and the people did in Mina does not come under the heading of takbeer in unison; rather it comes under the heading of takbeer that is prescribed, because he (may Allah be pleased with him) raised his voice in takbeer in accordance with the Sunnah and so as to remind the people of it, so they said takbeer, each one on his own. This does not mean that they and ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) agreed to raise their voices in takbeer in unison from beginning to end, as those who say takbeer in unison do nowadays. Thus everything that is narrated from the righteous early generations (may Allah have mercy on them) about the takbeer was all done in the prescribed manner. Anyone who claims something other than that has to produce evidence. Similarly, the call to prayer for the ‘Eid prayer, Taraweeh, qiyam (night prayer) or Witr is all innovation for which there is no basis. It is proven in the saheeh hadeeths (authentic narrations) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that he used to offer the ‘Eid prayer with no adhan (call to prayer) or iqamah (final call to prayer), and as far as we know, none of the scholars said that there is a call with other words. The one who claims that has to establish proof. The basic principle is that there is no call to prayer in these cases. So it is not permissible for anyone to prescribe an act of worship, whether it involves words or actions, except with evidence from the Holy Quran or the saheeh Sunnah or scholarly consensus -- as stated above -- because of the general meaning of the shar’i evidence which forbade innovation and warned against it, such as the verse in which Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Or have they partners with Allah (false gods) who have instituted for them a religion which Allah has not ordained?”

[al-Shoora 42:21]

This evidence also includes the two hadeeths mentioned above, such as that in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever introduces anything into this matter of ours that is not part of it will have it rejected.” Saheeh – agreed upon.

And he (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said in the Jumu’ah khutbah (Friday sermon): “To proceed. The best of speech is the Book of Allah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The worst of matters are those which are newly invented and every innovation is a going astray.” Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh. And there are many similar hadeeths and reports.

And it is Allah Whom we ask to guide us and al-Shaykh Ahmad and all our brothers to the proper understanding of His religion and help us to remain steadfast in adhering to it, and to make us all callers to guidance and supporters of the truth, and to protect us and all the Muslims from everything that is contrary to His laws, for He is Most Generous. May Allah send peace and blessings upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and Companions.[/b]

Majmoo’ Fatawa Ibn Baz, 13/20-23

Source: https://islamqa.info/en/127851

Ma salaam.

^^^^^



You did not disappoint me at. I was expect just this.

Here is the thing, it is bcus you glued yourself with Shuyuk of Saudi ONLY it the reason you feel anything that goes against their ideology is bid'ah. it is ABSOLUTELY his OPINION to restrict UNISON DHIKR to the two(2) Eids. I am not here to fault Sheik Bin Baz (ra). It is his understanding but other great Shuyuk understood this in their way backed by Qur'an and Sunnah as he did. You have to understand that Islam is bigger than him. He is not the only qualified Sheik in any subjects. His contemporaries were many; of them is Sheik Adam ilory(ra) who understood more more more and more.

Now, you may say i tried to downplay your sheik. Fact is, your post is "my sheik said". The same thing you people accused some Sufis of. It is all a joke anytime anyday.

I repeat, you slowly came to realisation of group dhikr after you kicked against it. You also kicked against UNISON dhikr but now that i brought the two Eids up, that sent you shivering. My point is, you do not have the right to call people who do GROUP DHIKR in UNISON bid'a. It is clear as daylight now that you do not have CLEAR evidence to reject this practice. It is as clear as the sun that GROUP- UNISON DHIKR is evident just by citing the two Eids. If those Shuyuk you love dont agree with it base on their mechanical and theoretical approach, doesn't make it bid'a. Besides, it is his opinion not the word of the prophet(SAW). He has no clear dalil against it

There is no "Qola Allah Qola rosul" in your post above other than as usual general statement that "matter of innovation will be rejected" which is not even properly understood in its CONTEXT.


And you said earlier that i accused your post that you copied which was the word of Sheik bin baz. Quiet frankly, i did not know but i did know it is from that arena. But you have said the same of mine that I "misguide" people. Yet, you didn't know where i got mine from either. I later made it clear that it is from Alhu Sunna wajama but you could care less. This makes me think, why do you think KNOWLEDGE OF ISLAM IS RESTRICTED TO SAUDI?. This is rather dogmatism if you have to keep rejecting millions of others Shuyuk from other parts of the world..

NEVER did islam gives them preference over others. So from what I can deduce from your post so far, GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS BID'AH to you because Sheik bin Baz said so.


But for me, GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS SUNNAH because we have dalil. If it is Sunnatic on the days of Eid, it is Sunnah anytime, anyday, anywhere. If I were you, i wont talk about this anymore

The shaykh gave a challenge, bring evidence for unison dhikr before eid prayers the exact way it is done today, he was not even the only one that saidsaid its bid'ah, you keep saying majority majority majority, are you doing the religion of majority or the religion of Allaah?

And on group dhikr not only ibn baz said so, but i gave the opinion of Umar, ibn Abass, ibn masood, and all ruled it bid'ah.

Jama'ah does not necessarily mean, a bunch of people, only one person can be a jam'ah according to sharee'ah, so if it is only 1 person that is upon the pristine Islam, then that person can be referred to as ummah, i didn't make this up, see the Quran;

Inna ibrahima kaana ummatan qaanitan lillaahi hanifa....

"Verily, Ibrahim was an Ummah (or a nation), obedient to Allaah, Hanif (i.e. to worship none but Allaah...."

Islam is not the religion of majority...get that straight.

^^

Actually you did not respond to my post up there regarding explanations given by scholars you posted in your BOLD post. I asked if my understanding of the descriptions by those scholars was correct?.

Let me rephrase it.

It is about Ibn Masu'd(RA) when he heard loud dhikr gathering in the masjid after salat. The scholar you posted confirmed it is dhikr but shied from saying it is "group" of dhikr. What I understood from their statements is everyone in the masjid made loud dhikr INDIVIDUALLY, correct?

Yes, or is it not possible? And it was specifically after fardh salaah.

Besides, it seems you don't understand my post that you claimed you "refuted" about ibn Masu'd. You said i didnt say anything about it. Maybe you go back to the previous page and re-read. My post confirmed they were making group dhikr but Ibn Mau'd only "kicked against" something which was not specified that they were doing in the dhikr. They just keep talking about "method" or "technique" not recommended by the prophet(SAW) in the dhikr. And i quoted classical scholars on it but you brushed it aside actually.

The ONLY problem with loud group dhikr that both cons and pros agreed upon is that it disturbs those who might come late for salat. All scholars agreed to this. Just wondering they they did not mention this about "group of knowledge"?. They both talk loud.

lexiconkabir:
Yes, or is it not possible? And it was specifically after fardh salaah.

Case is close brother. How many Salafis now do this?. Is that not group in the masjid?. Quiet frankly, there is nothing else to talk about. I am glad you said 'Yes'. That's like in the church where everyone shouts

"Ni Oruko Jeeeeeesu" etc.


Do you shout "La ilaha ila Allah" with others but individually in this day and age now?. I dont see salafis do that.. The people close to doing that are the Sufis. So, i repeat, it is ALL a joke and a twist. If you agree it is dhikr they do in the masjid and rarely we see any of you do that today, that means you have abandoned the SUNNAH. The people close to that are the SUfis. Hence, you have no right to say UNISON group dhikr is bid'a.

If UNISON GROUP DHIKR is SUNNAH on Eids, it is SUNNAH forever. That's the dalil.

The narrators that was faulted was Amr which by the way ibn ma'in named him as trustworthy, even if we are to agree that Amr is not to be trusted, how bout Qais that narrated the same hadith with little variation? Is he also weak? Did you bother downloading the book i gave you? It was clearly written there "bi isnaadu sahih" dont worry I'll give you screenshot if you are scared to download the book.

Pardon me if the screenshots are not welk arranged, I'm using a phone to type.

lexiconkabir:
Yes, or is it not possible? And [size=15pt]it was specifically after fardh salaah[/size].

I pray at masjid with ideology like yours. I NEVER ever seen them do this. Once Imam says "salaam alaikum", everyone stands up and leave. But Sufis encourage to sit down and make dhikr. Again, who are those people close to what Saidina Ibn Masu'd heard them(sahaba) doing the masjid?.

You have said earlier that there was no record of sahaba doing group dhikr. Now I am glad you confirmed they did.

Stop twisting from now on. Many other scholars have accused those scholars you have been quoting as twisting "UNISON GROUP DHIKR". That's why i accused you of same

Empiree:


Case is close brother. How many Salafis now do this?. Is that not group in the masjid?. Quiet frankly, there is nothing else to talk about. I am glad you said 'Yes'. That's like in the church where everyone shouts

"Ni Oruko Jeeeeeesu" etc.


Do you shout "La ilaha ila Allah" with others but individually in this day and age now?. I dont see salafis do that.. The people close to doing that are the Sufis. So, i repeat, it is ALL a joke and a twist. If you agree it is dhikr they do in the masjid and rarely we see any of you do that today, that means you have abandoned the SUNNAH. The people close to that are the SUfis. Hence, you have no right to say UNISON group dhikr is bid'a.

Being permissible does not mean it must be done since dhikr can be done both loudly or silently, but if you do it loudly after fardh salaah, then no sin on you, simple.....

If UNISON GROUP DHIKR is SUNNAH on Eids, it is SUNNAH forever. That's the dalil.

You are yet to give us proof for UNISON GROUP DHIKR ON EIDS LIKE ITS BEEN DONE TODAY.

lexiconkabir:
The narrators that was faulted was Amr which by the way ibn ma'in named him as trustworthy, even if we are to agree that Amr is not to be trusted, how bout Qais that narrated the same hadith with little variation? Is he also weak? Did you bother downloading the book i gave you? It was clearly written there "bi isnaadu sahih" dont worry I'll give you screenshot if you are scared to download the book.

Pardon me if the screenshots are not welk arranged, I'm using a phone to type.

Good. This is what i was saying yesterday that if you drag it, i wiould bring forward how scholars have faulted their narrations. I will now do that as times permits since you brought it up. I think they are 4 or 5 narrators.

See me soon, In Sha Allah

Empiree:
I pray at masjid with ideology like yours. I NEVER ever seen them do this. Once Imam says "salaam alaikum", everyone stands up and leave. But Sufis encourage to sit down and make dhikr. Again, who are those people close to what Saidina Ibn Masu'd heard them(sahaba) doing the masjid?.

You have said earlier that there was no record of sahaba doing group dhikr. Now I am glad you confirmed they did.

Stop twisting from now on. Many other scholars have accused those scholars you have been quoting as twisting "UNISON GROUP DHIKR". That's why i accused you of same

Nowhere did i confirmed that the sahabas did GROUP DHIKR(UNISON) STOP SAYING WHAT I DID NOT SAY! I dont know about the masjid you pray, you dont know if they do dhikr individually as the move since the sunnah permits dhikr while walking, so do no sat what you not sure of.

lexiconkabir:


Being permissible does not mean it must be done since dhikr can be done both loudly or silently, but if you do it loudly after fardh salaah, then no sin on you, simple.....

Anytime i vornered you, u end up agreeing with me. You funny. Slowly but surely you compromised especially when yu said 'YES' it is dhikr they do in the masjid but yiu only shied away to say it is group. Joke JOke Joke!!!!!

You are yet to give us proof for UNISON GROUP DHIKR ON EIDS LIKE ITS BEEN DONE TODAY.

Pardon me, i dont understand u here. I dont know of any UNISON group dhikr other than the way it is done every Eid. Are people gathered on Eid not a group?. Them shouting Allahu Akbar together many times is not UNISON?

Twist again. I dey gbadun you

lexiconkabir:


Nowhere did i confirmed that the sahabas did GROUP DHIKR(UNISON) STOP SAYING WHAT I DID NOT SAY! I dont know about the masjid you pray, you dont know if they do dhikr individually as the move since the sunnah permits dhikr while walking, so do no sat what you not sure of.

question is, where you pray, do they make loud dhikr INDIVIDUALLY like SAHABA did where you pray?

Empiree:
Good. This is what i was saying yesterday that if you drag it, i wiould bring forward how scholars have faulted their narrations. I will now do that as times permits since you brought it up. I think they are 4 or 5 narrators.

See me soon, In Sha Allah

I'm sure you didnt even read what's on the screenshot.... See believe whatever you want, the books this suppose scholars quote, I'm sure you dont have the books, you didnt verify if it is in the book or not, because its a surprise these supposed scholars quote ibn hanbal to be in support of group dhikr where i infact gave a well known narration that ibn hanbal kicked against group dhikr, that should tell you something, I'm guessing you copying from islam.org a hanafi webpage run by deobandis.

Allaah musta'an, my statements are clear, but you twist what i say and claim i am now agreeing with you, like i said earlier, anyone reading objectively will know my position from the beginning till now has not and will never change insha Alaah.

Ma salaam, I'm really done with this for real, this is the deen of Allaah, a'udhubillaah i cant play with the religion of Allaah, but you seem to take this as some sort of joke when infact it is not, I REPEAT WE ARE NOT PLAYING WITH THE DEEN OF ALLAAH, WE SAY IT AS IT IS, NO TWISTING, NO HIDING.

salaam.

lexiconkabir:
The narrators that was faulted was [size=14pt]Amr[/size] which by the way ibn ma'in named him as trustworthy, even if we are to agree that Amr is not to be trusted, how bout Qais that narrated the same hadith with little variation? Is he also weak? Did you bother downloading the book i gave you? It was clearly written there "bi isnaadu sahih" dont worry I'll give you screenshot if you are scared to download the book.

Pardon me if the screenshots are not welk arranged, I'm using a phone to type.

Well, regarding the narrator's about the hadith you quote which is located in Sunan of Imam Darimi, "Amr" was the fourth narrator which means, he was the last to hear the hadith. His name is somehow confused with someone else called "Amar". They seemed to realise later he was the same person.

Below is Alhu Sunnah's analysis {this is just a brief}.


We hear this narration so often to try and discourage people to gather together to do congregational dhikr together. But we also find this is the only narration which goes against loud dhikr. However it is weak and unreliable. It has a chain of narration back to Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) as the science of narration and hadith works.



Imam Darimi writes it, narrating from:


1. Hakim ibn Mubarak who is the 1st narrator.

2. He says I heard it from Umar bin Yahya – 2nd person in this narration.

3. He says I heard it from my father Yahya – 3rd person in this narration.

4. He says I heard it from Amar bin Salima – 4th person in this narration.


So essentially there are 4 narrators of this narration!


1) Hakim ibn Mubarak


Allamah Dhahabi in his book Nizamul Ihtedal writes, Hakim ul Mubarak used to steal the hadiths.


What it means to steal hadith, is somebody who basically when narrating a hadith omits the person they heard it from but state they heard it from the person prior to that. For example instead of “I heard from Person X who heard from Person Y”, they will say “I heard from Person Y” and omit out Person X. By doing this, the person is stealing the merit of the narration because they wanted there own name in the narration, add credit to it and to show there name was early in the chain of narration.

So in summary, Haakim-ibn-Mubarak who is the first narrator in this Darimi narration (and is also the teacher of Imam Darimi) is known to be a stealer of hadith therefore his reliability and credibility has been brought into question by Allamah Dhahabi.


Permit me to skip 2nd and 3rd narrators as they're not relevant now. Let's jump to the fourth, Amr.



4) Amar (Amr) bin Salima


The fourth narrator who claims to have seen this event of Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him), his name is Amar bin Salima. The problem with him is that historically there has been a confusion about who Amar bin Salima is due to there being two person with the same name. One is Amr bin Salima al-Hamadani al Kufi. The other is Amr bin Salma Bin Kharad al Jurni. So there was confusion as to which Amar witnessed the event.

Imam Ibn Abi Hatim says that although historically there has been confusion, but both these Amar are in fact the one person and he is also a weak and unreliable narrator. (Imam Ibn Abi Hatim is an absolute authority of analysing the Chain of Narrations.)


I shall continue investigation on the narrator(s) you quoted if time permits or i may choose to ignore. That depends on if you keep saying GROUP Dhikr (congregational) is bid'a. It should clear to you already especially with evidence of Ibn Masu'd hearing gathering of people making dhikr after obligatory salat. That should open your eyes.

It is not about joking with religion of Allah. Please stop saying that. By 'joke' meant YOU. I provided evidences and even quoted your own evidence. So this is not about joking with religion. My question stands, since you agreed they were making group dhikr in the masjid when Ibn Mas'd heard,


This is what you said

lexiconkabir:
Yes, or is it not possible? And it was specifically after fardh salaah.

then, I asked you this question and it should have been cleared to you already.

Empiree:
question is, [size=13pt]where you pray[/size], do they make loud dhikr INDIVIDUALLY like SAHABA did?

You did not answer that. I again asked you who are those close to what sahaba did {in this day and age}, aren't they the Sufis?. You did not answer. You deem it bid'a.


Now, I am done here FOR GOOD.


We have long derailed this thread and let's run back to Jabata.

Someone just sent me a voice clip of Jabata's deputy. I am yet to listen to it. It is 20 minutes long.

since you agreed they were making group dhikr in the masjid when Ibn Mas'd heard

I said I'm done with this does not mean i wont clarify a lie against me, i never agreed they did group dhikr!! I said they did dhikr loudly INDIVIDUALLY. Stop Lying against me.

Dhikr of Allah is the most excellent act of Allah's servants and is stressed over a hundred times in the Holy Qur'an. It is the most praiseworthy work to earn Allah's pleasure, the most effective weapon to overcome the enemy, and the most deserving of deeds in reward.

It is the flag of Islam, the polish of hearts, the essence of the science of faith, the immunization against hypocrisy, the head of worship, and the key of all success.[size=15pt]There are no restrictions on the modality, frequency, or timing of dhikr whatsoever. The restrictions on modality pertain to certain specific obligatory acts which are not the issue here, such as Salat.[/size]

The Shari'a is clear and everyone knows what they have to do. [size=17pt]Indeed, the Prophet said that the People of Paradise will only regret one thing: not having made enough dhikr in the world![/size] Are not those who are making up reasons to discourage others from making dhikr afraid of Allah in this tremendous matter?


People should not allow anybody to come with copus ideology telling them congregational du'a or group dhikr is bid'a in any form. Allah and His messenger did not place restriction on this beautiful practice. Without dhikr, we are done like dinner. Do dhikr as much as you want, in group with your family, in gathering with friends, and even with enemies. There are no restrictions in making dhikr group or not. Even some among them are condeming dhikr on the go. But they are yet to come out from their hijab to say that. It is only a matter of time. before they condemn that as well. This is how they start.

Forget about conspiracy surrounding BH. The moment muslims return to dhikr Allah, which is ONLY visibly possible in gathering or group or assemblies, I bear Allah witness, Boko boys will be history.

Return To Allah's Path People. Group dhikr is NOT NOT NOT innovation. Such statement is foreign and outlandish amongst the best of Ulama worldwide. The ideology only emerged from a SPECIFIC region of the world


Imam Qurtubi said, "Gatherings of dhikr are the gatherings for knowledge......"

I said I'm done with this does not mean i wont clarify a lie against me, i never agreed they did group dhikr!! I said they did dhikr loudly INDIVIDUALLY. Stop Lying against me.

It always makes me smile whenever I read a refutation like this. It seems to me that the one making refutation like this did not ponder well on his/her proves but took his/her evidences blindly from its source(s) because some who he/she considered authority(s) said so. Individual making loud Dhikr; one person will do his/her own and wait for the next person to makes his/her own and thus, if they were about ten or twenty, they make in turn waiting on each other in turns Or one will says his/her own individually (either in parallel or simultaneously), if yes, take it or leave, it will becomes unison deliberately or indeliberately.
This kind of refutation makes no sense to a liberal mind that has not been coded or programmed and that is the truth.

Empiree:
Dhikr of Allah is the most excellent act of Allah's servants and is stressed over a hundred times in the Holy Qur'an. It is the most praiseworthy work to earn Allah's pleasure, the most effective weapon to overcome the enemy, and the most deserving of deeds in reward.

It is the flag of Islam, the polish of hearts, the essence of the science of faith, the immunization against hypocrisy, the head of worship, and the key of all success.[size=15pt]There are no restrictions on the modality, frequency, or timing of dhikr whatsoever. The restrictions on modality pertain to certain specific obligatory acts which are not the issue here, such as Salat.[/size]

The Shari'a is clear and everyone knows what they have to do. [size=17pt]Indeed, the Prophet said that the People of Paradise will only regret one thing: not having made enough dhikr in the world![/size] Are not those who are making up reasons to discourage others from making dhikr afraid of Allah in this tremendous matter?





People should not allow anybody to come with copus ideology telling them congregational du'a or group dhikr is bid'a in any form. Allah and His messenger did not place restriction on this beautiful practice. Without dhikr, we are done like dinner. Do dhikr as much as you want, in group with your family, in gathering with friends, and even with enemies. There are no restrictions in making dhikr group or not. Even some among them are condeming dhikr on the go. But they are yet to come out from their hijab to say that. It is only a matter of time. before they condemn that as well. This is how they start.

Forget about conspiracy surrounding BH. The moment muslims return to dhikr Allah, which is ONLY visibly possible in gathering or group or assemblies, I bear Allah witness, Boko boys will be history.

Return To Allah's Path People. Group dhikr is NOT NOT NOT innovation. Such statement is foreign and outlandish amongst the best of Ulama worldwide. The ideology only emerged from a SPECIFIC region of the world


Imam Qurtubi said, "Gatherings of dhikr are the gatherings for knowledge......"

Baarakallahu feek wa ana bika. I came across it somewhere that Dhikrllah is a lethal weapon against enemy of the Deen. Because we left remembrance of Allah this constituted some of the reasons why Infidels are now gaining upper hands on the Ummah. Mind you, on the Ummah and not the Deen. Allah (SWT) Is surely protecting His Deen, even, if the enemies/disbelievers like it or not it will surely be victorious. The Deen is not the same as the Ummah, hence the Ummah must work it out on their own LEGITIMATELY through prescription(s); DHIKRLLAH, especially, in congregation as this is usually weakening the enemies and frustrate their scheme against us when they see us in uniformity. Unfortunately, the ENEMIES within; Ahlul-Fitna - Wahhabi and their likes or off-shoots, and paid puppets self-acclaimed scholars, are warring against this lofty spiritual magnanimous weapon just to coerce their blind folded ideology on the ummah. Subuhanallah!!!
May Allah safeguards us from this fitna emanated from Najdi.

highque:



Baarakallahu feek wa ana bika. I came across it somewhere that Dhikrllah is a lethal weapon against enemy of the Deen. Because we left remembrance of Allah this constituted some of the reasons why Infidels are now gaining upper hands on the Ummah. Mind you, on the Ummah and not the Deen. Allah (SWT) Is surely protecting His Deen, even, if the enemies/disbelievers like it or not it will surely be victorious. The Deen is not the same as the Ummah, hence the Ummah must work it out on their own LEGITIMATELY through prescription(s); DHIKRLLAH, especially, in congregation as this is usually weakening the enemies and frustrate their scheme against us when they see us in uniformity. Unfortunately, the ENEMIES within; Ahlul-Fitna - Wahhabi and their likes or off-shoots, and paid puppets self-acclaimed scholars, are warring against this lofty spiritual magnanimous weapon just to coerce their blind folded ideology on the ummah. Subuhanallah!!!
May Allah safeguards us from this fitna emanated from Najdi.

Well said. Well articulated. Jazakallah Khayran

And the brother you quoted above has had his account deactivated a while back. His new moniker is abdelkabir

This thread.. hummm

If i understand this article well Alee jabata believes only what prophet preaches and not believed in shaab? My believe is that shaaba will not preach any thing contrary to what our beloved prophet presches. May Allah guide us right. [q uote]This article is aimed at exposing a fellow called Muhammad Ali jabata a takfiri who calls people to misguidance, his false teachings is now a thing of concern for students of knowledge in the south western part of Nigeria, and I feel the need to warn people about him, HE IS AMONG THE KHAWAARIJ OF OUR TIME, his students and followers are spreading his misguidance through a website which i wont give the name so some people wont be tempted to click on it, just Hold on tight to that name MUHAMMAD ALEE JABATA, if you see his name on a website, DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY AUDIO FROM THAT WEBSITE, EVEN IF IT IS ANOTHER PERSON, AS FAR AS IT IS THAT WEBSITE, THEIR IDEOLOGIES ARE ALL THE SAME, BECAUSE THE PREACHERS IN THAT WEBSITE ARE ALL HIS FOLLOWERS, BEWARE! Now here is a brief history of this Man, culled from:

http://www.simplysalafiyyah.com/A-Peek-at-False-Manhaj-of-Muhammad-Awwal-Jabata.html

Some ten years ago in South-West Nigeria, there arrived a fellow from Egypt en route Lagos and finally landed in a city known for some Islamic presence albeit Soofiyyah, Ilorin. This was a time when there was a resurgence of Sunnah-Salafiyyah in the region. Many youths were very enthusiastic to learn what was new in the Sunnah, and without much ado, would put it into action. This was also a time when many Sunnah-loving youths were freeing themselves from the blindness of hizbiyyah [blameworthy partisanship] that was being promoted by many Sunnah-seeming organizations. There were scholars of Sunnah at the time but they were very handful, or not very prominent, perhaps because the challenge was not really there.

Then the youths began to hear some conundrums from the fellow that arrived from Egypt. Things that were not what the youths were yearning for. Though some of the youths, especially those not really on the knowledge path, as usual, fell for the bait. Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaanee [may Allâh show mercy on him], the writer of the popular Bulooghul-Maraam and the best commentary on Saheeh Bukhaari, was a Kâfir because he was an unrepentant Ash’aree (a person that makes some twistings in some of the Attributes of Allaah). Abu Haneefah [may Allâh show mercy on him] was no Imaam at all, in fact he was an ignoramus that rarely said what was correct whether in jurisprudential matters or ‘Aqeedah; he was a Mur’ji’ [a person that removes actions from belief] so he must be removed from the Four Imaams! Al-Imaam an-Nawawee [may Allâh show mercy on him] was also a Kâfir because he was as guilty as Ibn Hajar [may Allâh show mercy on him]. Al-Imaam As-Suyootee was indeed a Sufi whose comments and scholarly works amounted to nothing. If you eat with your spoon and fork you have come up with an innovation in the Deen and your abode is the hell, do not count on any excuse because there is no excuse in the matters that have to do with Aqeedah! If you have a newborn, and you invite people to it to dine with you, then you are as well as a kaafir. If your wife or daughter or mother does not cover her face then she is a sinner and her sin is nothing but a Kufr act, therefore she will enter the hellfire, no question. All the fathers are unbelievers if they do not hear what we say, hence when we pretentiously ask for the hands of their daughters in marriage and they fail to grant it we shall go ahead and marry them, there is no need for a Sharee’ah Qaadi to permit it, the Qudaat themselves are people of bid’ah and the people bid’ah, as far as we are concerned are Kuffaar, not even the minor Kufr! Kufr is Kufr just as bid’ah is bid’ah all which lands its doer in the hell as a major sin.

By Allâh, we have some youths that imbibe(d) the above false and far-from-the-correct-manhaj teachings, and of course, put them into ferocious actions declaring whomever comes with different stances even if they are more correct as kuffaar mubtadi’oon. May Allâh save the Muslims.

Nobody brought the thoughts we have mentioned to South-West Nigeria other than the fellow that came from Egypt via Lagos. His name is Muhammad Awwal Alee Jabata [may Allâh guide him and us to what is correct]. He is indeed a scourge for the Muslims in the South-West Nigeria.

As we said, he had his higher schooling in Egypt. He studied nothing but the course many scholars of Sunnah, past and present, had warned us about, Falsafa [Philosophy] in a university which nobody goes and remains safe in ‘Aqeedah and Manhaj except whomever is shown mercy by Allâh, al-Azhar University, Cairo. Jabata was doing his Master’s degrees when he was sent away from the school for anti-government activities; he was eventually jailed. One of his former first-class students, whom Allâh the Bountiful Lord has saved from him, Abdul-Fattaah Balloo, told us that when they were students under him, Jabata used to boast of being sent out of the Azhari University because of what he claimed were bold steps in saying the ‘truth’ against the government!

One very sad thing, and which has informed this important but short message, is that Jabata goes on today declaring Muslims especially the callers to Sunnah as Kuffaar because of one alleged Bid’ah or the other, in fact, he has openly declared sinners among the Muslims as Kuffaar. For instance, he said whoever eats mutton, chicken, egg, etc, from animals not well-kept have eaten scavengers therefore such a person is a sinner and is guilty of kufr that will land him in the hell fire. His tapes where he says such things are very widely spread.

It was no surprise when he declared a caller to Sunnah [we do not praise anybody above Allâh] in Ibadan as a Kâfir for allegedly permitting bowing to other than Allâh. That allegation remains a big lie.

We would have even kept quiet from writing about him if not very recently when some foot-soldiers of his came out massively online to sell the products of their fateen teacher to the non-suspecting Muslim public at the time when the love for Sunnah and Salafiyyah seems to be soaring very rapidly, all praise to Allâh.

Jabata has made himself an authority in the whole of South West Nigeria. Praise to Allâh who used some scholars and students of the Sunnah in Lagos and Ilorin to cut his wings, that was about seven years ago. Those scholars refuted him so ferociously that he went underground for years. Alhamdulillah, many youths abandoned him and we even thought he had repented from his evil statements. But today Jabata has resurfaced and found a new haven in the old city of Ibadan, the capital of the old western region of Nigeria and the arguably the largest city in Africa, and there are many ignoramuses blindly following him saying ‘he has daleel with him’. Many of these his ignoramus followers do not know how to spell their names in Arabic let alone knowing the matters of Bid’ah, Kufr and Eemaan properly. May Allâh guide all of us and them.

Among the teachings of Alee Jabata are the following:

1. That Allâh only sent the Messenger of Allâh (salaLlaahu alahyi wa sallam) to us therefore there is no need for scholarly explanations in the matters of the Deen this is why he has come up with various theories he had no one as his Imaam. AbdulFattaah Ballo told us that he was there in the class when Jabata began the Da’wah of spoon and fork is bid’ah that would lead to kufr, he said they were reading a Qaradawi book that day when he came across the issue while trying to refute the former. He said he was also present in the Waleemah of the second wife of Jabata where spoons were freely used. In fact, he said, when it seemed the gathering had run out of spoons, Jabata himself had to search for spoons to share between his guests. But just some months after, he said the use of spoon and fork is a bid’ah act that makes one a total Kâfir! That is what he and his followers say there is no exaggeration.

So Jabata believes in no scholar save his unknown teachers. Abdul-Fattaah said, truly Jabata used to quote Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim but he would quote them when they said whatever suited his whims. He believes in himself and himself alone upon the claim that he is following the Daleel! So he is a mujtahid!

2. Similar to the point above is that Jabata does not believe in the legitimacy of the statements of the Sahabah as being useful in the Sharî’ah. He said whether a Sahabi said a thing or not is not what matters, what matters is whatever the Messenger of Allâh (salaLlaahu alahyi wa sallam) said. This therefore qualifies him to look at the issues of Islam the way he feels like since the person of the Messenger of Allâh (salaLlaahu alahyi wa sallam) alone is to be followed! It is not far that this thought of his takes him away from the manhaj of the Salaf even if he and his loyalists make a thousand claims.

Those are the Usool of Jabata known to him and his unknown teachers among whom is the deviant, Mahmood al-Haddaadee, also and Egyptiian, who championed the cause, among other deviant ones, that all the books of Ibn Hajar al-Asqalanee should be burnt because he was a Kâfir! Interestingly Jabata says he is not a follower of Haddaadee. He would sometime want to burst into crying whenever he is attributed to Haddaadee. AbdulFattaah Ballo told us that Jabata once said that Haddaadee himself was a Kâfir to him! We say that it is not new for a bunch of Takfeeris ending up calling one another Kuffaar. One of the scholars has said that if you gather ten Takfeeris in a room, they will end up calling one another kuffaar. There are many other things Jabata would deny whenever he is cornered.

Whether Jabata and his followers like it or not, he is a Haddaadee and a Takfeeri [a person who unjustly declares Muslims as unbelievers because of one sins or the other that sometimes include bid’ah] thus his words are not to be taken. His speeches are to be avoided. Warnings have to go on against him and his followers, until the Deen become Allah’s alone.

Lastly, we think it would not be proper if we fail to bring the concise description made by one of the Shuyookh of Sunnah in South West Nigeria, Ash-Shaykh Najeem Sulayman [may Allâh lengthen his life on goodness], about the person and manhaj of Alee Jabata. The Shaykh said:

'He is bold on falsehood. His tongue is (always) drawn out. His speeches are unmarketable, rejected even false. He never smelt Da'wah Salafiyyah let alone tasting it. Allaah's aid is sought.'[/quote]