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Stats: 1241491 members, 1646911 topics. Date: Friday, 19 September 2014 at 08:52 PM
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 3:25pm On Jan 20, 2007|
However, I didn't quite understand this line in your post:
Perhaps you might want to rephrase the emboldened line, because it sounds to me like you are saying that Jesus created Himself, which i suppose you did not mean.
For those who only see Jesus Christ as a created being or the first of God's creation, I have often asked for an interpretation of Revelation 22:12 - "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." If the One who is coming quickly is the Lord Jesus Christ as seen in Rev. 22:20, what did He mean by referring to Himself as the Alpha and Omega - the same title that the Almighty uses for Himself (Rev. 1:8 )?
The problem is that so many people envisage a "lesser God" when they speak of the Lord Jesus Christ - which is contrary to the testimony of Scripture. The brilliant truth of the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus (John 1:1 & 14) is that, the very same One who is called "the God of the whole earth" (Isa. 54:5) and "the Mighty God" (Isa. 9:6) in the fulness of time came in the flesh for our Redemption. If He was not God, He could not make the claims of deity that we have severally outlined.
Jesus is Lord. He is God manifest in flesh, the Emmanuel revealed as God with us, and the very One who is the God of the whole earth!
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 7:08pm On Jan 20, 2007|
@shahan: The term Almighty conveys the broad meaning of Absolute power (ie, one with such an authority means no one can check his hand, or bring him under the control be it human or otherwise.
In the bible book of Genesis Chapter 17:1 "when Abram got to be ninety -nine years old,then Jehovah (or Yahweh)appeared to Abram and said to him, " I am God Almighty, walk before me and prove yourself faultless.
This same Almighty God said through his prophet Isaiah chapter 43:10 later part of that scriptural text reads "Before me there was no God formed and after me there continued to be none. Verse 43 I-I Observe the repetition i, I-I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior.Under this light the Amighty God can do both greater things and lesser things the way he pleases.
Who is this Jehovah or Yahweh? Could it be Jesus? No Jehovah is the Amighty God of the Jews.To whom there is no rivalry or to compare.
Apostle Paul in speaking of this God to the Romans said in Roman I3: 29 "or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations? Yes ,of people of the nations also. Was Paul reffering to Jesus here?.
The term mighty (relative) conveys limited power, scope of authority ,can be checked when ascribe to an individual or otherwise, we used to hear mighty warrior, miighty ruler etc. Hence when Isaiah uttered the messianic prophecy in Chapter 9:6 the opening statement read, "for there has been a child born to us, and so on and so forth. Do You think Isaiah in his right frame of mind or in any circumstance be reffering to the God of the Jews[b],(Jehovah is name is, the manly person of war, who divided seas, melt mountain like obstacle like wax) as a child?.[/b]
Daniel in continuation uttered a striking messianic prophecy undeniable to this day about the appearance of this expected Messiah (Daniel 9:24-26) Were the Jews expecting their almighty God to appear as their messiah or the anointed one? Far be it
That one is given a name such as Emmanuel(God is with Us) in Ibo Chinonyere,Chinonso,Jesus (Yeheshua, or Joshua which means Jah is Salvation) in ibo ,Chinazo has that made such one God manisfest among his family?.
Hence Jesus Christ being reffered to as a mighty God is lesser in authority to the Almighty God Jehovah his father who divinely proclaimmed "This Is My Son The Beloved, Whom I Have Approved" of Whom Jesus called my father and my God, and also said My father is greater than I am ( John 14:28, John 20:17)
Under this light Jesus is a lesser god, giving accurate meaning to John 1:1 "In (the) beginning the word was, and he word was with God, and the word was a god.Verse 2 "This one was in thebeginning with God" giving full credence to, verse 18 of same chapter which says "No man has seen God at anytime, the only begtten god, who is in the bossom (position) with the father is the one that explained him".
@backslider: the accurate term of, (all creation) is far superior (see John 1:3) to living creatures if your translation is so accurate are we to infer that there re things created that was before Jesus Christ, for we know that that living creatures came last after all other things were created.(see wisdom personified in Jesus (Poroverb 8:22-31) so the firstborn of all creation gives superior meaning.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 7:15pm On Jan 20, 2007|
Attention! any reader of above post, correct quotation is Romans Chapter 3:29, not 13:29
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 7:57pm On Jan 20, 2007|
After reading your exegesis, this is what surprised me:
So, if Jesus is a lesser god, that automatically calls you a worshipper of "two gods" - one a higher "God", and the other a lesser "god"!
For your information, that idea is immediately thrown out the window by one of the verses you had quoted:
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Bottomline: there is no lesser god in the Bible - and any interpretation of seeing Jesus as a "lesser god" is simple idolatry.
I have explained John 1:1 in depth in the other thread: Who Was Jesus Before He Became Man.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 10:08pm On Jan 20, 2007|
@shahan: I[b] DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS,[/b] all and all my worship and prayers, sacred service goes to the almighty God Jehovah(Yahweh) through him (Jesus) as my ransomer,a mediator who complete obidience to his father set a precedence to anyone who want to gain an approved state by God.(Mathew 6:9. Mark 12:29-30,I Timothy 2:5)
Seeing Jesus as a lesser god is scriptural correct, for he knew that he's father prior said through Isaiah the prophet Chapter42:8 " I am Jehovah (Yahweh) and that is my name, and to no one else shall i share my glory, or my praises to graven image.
Or is John chapter 14:28 not in your bible where christ himself said ("My father is greater than I AM" FULL STOP He made it known that he was God's servant sent to do his will here on earth John 3:34 "My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me,and finish it. Full stop.
Jesus before he came to earth as the most perfect man who ever lived, is a spirit being in the heaven far superior than the cherubs and seraphs,he been the first and the beginning of all Gos's creation (Rev 3:14)
Repeatedly in the scriptures Christ Jesus is being reffered severally as the Son of God, a classical example is in Mathew 16:16 where apostle Peter answered and said "You re the christ the son of the living God" Do you shahan disagree to this statement? which even christ said it is a heavenly divine given answer.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 11:03pm On Jan 20, 2007|
It's alright if you do not worship Jesus and see Him as a "lesser god." What that says of a person is simply this: he or she has "two gods", and only chooses one of them. I do not fall into that dilemma, and have never had a problem with who is Jesus Christ. The Bible did not say He is "a god"; rather, in John 1:1 He is called God.
Well, if you read the book of Isaiah again from any translation at all, you will not find the prophet calling the Messiah "a lesser god" so, please don't make the mistake of thinking that you sound scripturally correct.
Was He merely God's servant, and not His Son as well? I think the problem here is that you're driving His servanthood too far as to forget that He is the divine Son as well.
What kind of spirit being was He, according to your summation?
If you follow my posts, there is not a single time I ever remotely tried to deny Jesus as the Son of God. My question to you was simply if you knew what that appellation meant.
8oracle, do you realise what you are saying by referring to Jesus as "a lesser god"?
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 12:13am On Jan 21, 2007|
@shahan, how much you may try to put words into Jesus mouth ascribing almightiness to him, You are straightly denying him as the son of God, Better you knew that the bible say who is the anti-christ? one who denies that Jesus is the christ (rather judge for yourself when you re saying that Jesus was the almighty God the messiah)
His stewardship and servititude to God is plain in the holy scriptures, In hebrew Chapter 12:2 we read "as we look intently at the chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith Jesus, For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake despising shame and has sat down at the right hand of the throne og God.
1 Peter 2:21 "In fact for this (course) you re called, because even christ suffered for you, leaving you a model to follow his steps closely.
Your blind and bedarkened mentality have never ever allow you to see that John 1;1(of your bible) do not tally with verse 18 of same chapter,(Exodus 33:20) and that have stand to be your anthem. Kindly read other bible translations to compare your John 1;1
Jesus is never equal to God in any ramification<[b]He said My Father Is Greater Than I Am)(John 14:28) and the almighty God Jehovah called him divinely proclsimmed[b]" This Is My Son the Beloved Whom I Have Approved"(Mathew 3:17) [/b] is this not a sledge hammer enough?[/b]Jesus still remains a mighty spirit being in heaven,(seconding his father in order of authority) "In turn God is the head of christ" (1Corinthians 11:3) now a crowned king of incoming God's Kingdom that will soon take desicive action on all earth troubles, and wipe them away (Rev 21:4) Psalm 37:9-11, Proverb 2:21-22, 1 Thessalonians 1:6-9)
Am still suprised why you are silent on Moses issue, when in Exodus 7:1 God himself told Moses i have made you God to Pharaoh, Dont you think we should add him to the almightyness of God headship? and formulate a doctrine that will read thus and teach same accordinly, Jehovah Is God,Jesus Is God, Moses Is God, Holy Spirit Is God , they re not four Gods but one. Let Moses have his rightful place.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 12:23am On Jan 21, 2007|
Your difficulty at understanding your own inferences stems form your denying the same thing that you seem to confess.
There is not a single place where I denied Jesus being the Christ or the Son of God. The only question I raised was:
From all your entries you have not categorically addressed the issue. Rather, you've only quoted texts out of contexts and arrived at very slanted meaning of what the Bible teaches. Then you came up with the idea that Jesus Christ is "a lesser god", when in fact there's no Scripture to back that up in any translation of the Bible.
With the love of Jesus Christ, I'll just advise you to read all the references in the OT about the LORD and gather your points from there before making unscriptural statements. When you have done this, then we can come back amicably to share our findings and compare notes to see if there are "two Gods" in the Bible - one who is "a lesser god" and the other one whom you confess as a different Almighty God.
Don't let the humanity of Jesus Christ blind you to His deity. Blessings.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 1:12am On Jan 21, 2007|
The Almighty God Jehovah is the ONLY true God and there is none like him (Deutronomy 4:35) Jesus in John 17:3 prayed and say "This Means Everlasting Life, Their Taking in Knowledge of The True God, and of the one whom you(God) sent forthJesus Christ.
Dont you think that Jesus have summarised it here ,he,s distinctiveness from his father Jehovah who is the only true God? There re NO TWO ALMIGHTY GODS IN THE BIBLE.
One is Almighty The creator of all things both in the heaven and on earth, Jehovah is his name, the manly person of war, who through centuries have brought all smearers and dishoners of his name to lick the dust.HOLY HOLY HOLY JEHOVAH YOU RE FOREVER AND EVER AND TO TIMES INDEFINITE.
One is Mighty co maker with God all created things through him they came to be as a master worker, Jesus Christ is his name, the savior of all mankind through the redemming act of shedding his precious blood on the torture stake for the washing away of our sins. The way of truth to God, and the life, the king of kings lord of lords, sooner than later will war against all opposser of God, both in the heavenly places and upon earth with God,s given power and brought all authorities to nothing forever and ever Amen ,lord come quickly
Are you still differing to give Moses his rightful place as God? God almighty told him "I have made you God to Pharaoh"(Exodus 7vs1) if subscription to some one in the bible as God, has made one God almighty, Bear also in mind that women judges out of their vocation re addressed and called lords in court of law.So they re also like Jesus Christ our Lord? if not in what sense.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 4getme1(m): 2:08am On Jan 21, 2007|
Please don't sweat it, because you're going round in circles and not able to articulate yourself. What you have succeeded in doing is preach two Gods - one as "mighty" while the other is "almighty". This only means you are preaching "two Gods" and that is not Christianity.
Why don't you take time and receive shahan's advice to carefully read the Old Testament about who God is, before you arrive at what the Bible did not teach? Perhaps the following might help you:
1. Who is the LORD?
2. How many LORD are in the Bible?
3. Who is the Mighty God?
4. How many "Mighty God" are there in the Bible?
5. Is "the Mighty God" separate and different from "the Almighty God"?
6. Where did you find "a lesser god" in the Bible?
7. Did Jesus Christ anywhere ask you to call Him "a lesser god"?
Maybe these few questions will help guide you so that you do not continue to make unscriptural statements and say they are correct.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 3:22am On Jan 21, 2007|
Again, I'll ask that you go back and study the OT and ask if there are two Gods in the Bible - "a lesser god" and another "God". May God enrich your study of His holy Word.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 10:02am On Jan 21, 2007|
@shahanYour recanting and admission that Jesus Christ is the Son of almighty God, should be of most interesting to all participants in this thread and subject matter.
When Jesus Christ openly declared that the almighty God Jehovah is greater than he is, What does that made him? Higher or lesser in substance?
Are you also aware that he admitted that, there things he and the angels do not know, except his father. Higher in knowledge or lesser?
These questions are foolish in nature and do not require answers to.
The almighty God is addressed as LORD
Our savior Christ Jesus is addressed as lord and any other being lesser in nature to the almighty God both men and women in court of law, But he Christ is lord of lords, and king of kings.
I believe there is only one True God, "Hear O Isreal Jehovah (Yahweh) our God is One Jehovah" (Deutronomy 6:4) He is the only true God, Jesus called him so (John 17:3) and so they can not be two almighty God.
I believe and preach that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that almighty God is greater than him, so Jesus said (Mathew 16:16, John 14:28)
Also beleive in his sin atoning sacrifice which opens a reconcillation between men and God, and by exercising faith in this ransom,and practice, and mold one's life according to his examples laid down in the bible, by God's underserved mercy one will have an approved state with God.(John 3:16)
By equiting the Almighty God Jehovah with any person or thing one should not fail to learn from Pharoah, Nebuchadnezzar etc, that he the almighty God do not tolerate any equal or rivalry,all his enemies have licked the dust through centuries, a manly person of war,he divides seas and evaporates them,moutains melts like wax in his fury.
Your re treading where angels fear to dare.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 10:46am On Jan 21, 2007|
Your conclusions are actually baseless and accusative because neither 4get_me nor I have ever denied that Jesus is the Christ or the Son of God. If you think we have said so, then please cut-and-paste or repost any line where we have denied Jesus Christ as the Son of God. You shouldn't jump to conclusions simply because your own presumptions are not articulate enough to hold substance.
I think the questions asked by 4get_me are very timely and were supposed to have helped you calm down and study the O.T. about who is the LORD. Since you hastily dismissed the questions as "foolish in nature and do not require answers to", you have only proven your inconsistencies and inability to provide answers. In this instance, let me repost my answers that earlier dealt with the questions:
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 11:20am On Jan 21, 2007|
@shahan, There you come again.
The almighty God JEHOVAH,(have awesome limitless power and konwledge, and takes no order from any one both in the heavens and upon the earth, no one i repeat no one checks his hands) he should be worshiped.
His Son christ Jesus, though mighty in power, have limted power and authority that stops at the desk of the almighty God, he takes orders and direction from the almighty God, in local parlance The Sovereign LORD,the Almighty God Jehovah, Is and still remains The Chairman/CEO to his son.The almighty God and his Son re one in unity of purpose in administering the affairs in heavens and their matter of their obidient ones here on earth.
In John 5:30, Jesus said " I CANNOT DO ANYTHING THING of my own INITIATIVE, just as i hear, i judge, and they judgment that i render is righteous, BECAUSE i seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me. Does this makes sense to Your likes?
I will keep admonishing you that you re treading on a dangerous road, even angels dare not to.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 12:00pm On Jan 21, 2007|
If you go by the scripture you will see that in him do all things consist and there nothing that was created that was not done by him he is the high Servant or High Priest. I speaking in the Spirit and flesh. He is the creator of all things so he Created himself as Jesus Christ ( MAN) But In spirit he The Son Of God was never created. He came down and was made man as Jesus leaving all the power and authority as The Almighty God That I will forever worship to be become mortal man and that in his death and resurrection we might Have Zoe (life).
You should read the bible very well there is no where in the bible was Jesus refered to as the FIRST OF ALL CREATion. He is referred to as the First born of all creature. I will confirm this in the bible. When Adam and Eve sinned, Jesus (man form) was already Borne In the Seed form and he was before cain and abel but he was not born yet. he is truely the first born of all creature.
If you don't understand the bible please stop reading those tract that you are reading and take the bible yourself and start to learn it gradually in prayer God will show you the bible does not contradict itself.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 12:13pm On Jan 21, 2007|
For emphasis, this is what the O.T. says in identifying 'the Mighty God' as 'Jehovah' Himself!
The same text you quoted to identify God as 'Jehovah' (i.e., 'the LORD') is given below:
In our English Bibles, Genesis 17:1 reads - "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD (i.e., 'Jehovah') appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." (KJV).
Now if "the LORD" (Jehovah) is the Almighty God, He is the very same who said in Exo. 6:3, "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."
Now if you carefully study the Word, you'll see the same God is known as the following:
* The LORD (Jehovah)
* The Mighty God
* The Almighty God
* The Lord
* The Lord of Hosts
"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name."
Perhaps I should ask you this pertinent question: Since you believe that JEHOVAH is the Almighty God, is it recorded anywhere that anyone has seen JEHOVAH?
There cannot be "two Gods" arbitrarily delineated along the lines of beggarly human reasoning, which as in your case has proven to be without a Biblical foundation.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by shahan(f): 12:30pm On Jan 21, 2007|
I see your point, but I do not agree with it. Jesus was never created. He was God and became flesh. He did not creat Himself - that would mean that He did not exist before He created Himself, which does not make any sense at all.
The Scriptures articulate the Incarnation in various ways:
1. He became flesh - John 1:14
2. He was made of David's seed according to the flesh - Rom. 1:3
3. He was made in the likeness of men - Phil. 2:7
4. He took part of flesh and blood - Heb. 2:14
5. He came in the flesh - I John 4:2-3
6. He, as God, was manifest in the flesh - I Tim. 3:16
7. The Father sent Him in the likeness of sinful flesh - Rom. 8:3
You will see clearly that in all these, the Lord Jesus already existed and He couldn't have created Himself in the flesh. He came in the flesh, but not created Himself in the flesh.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 7:37pm On Jan 21, 2007|
We are Both saying The same thing only that you need to understand me slowly. He is from the beginning that is clear. He had appeared in various forms Physically on Earth never as human to be resident.
He came to The Earth as Jesus Christ (MOST HIGH GOD IN HUMAN FLESH LIVED FOR 33 YEARS). JESUS CHRIST IS THE EMBODIMENT OF MAN AND THE GODHEAD RECONCILED IN THE FLESH, NOW THAT WAS CREATED BY GOD HIMSELF THE WORD OF GOD HIMSELF BEFORE HE BECAME FLESH JESUS.
NOW THIS NAME HAS BEEN EXALTED ABOVE EVERY OTHER NAME BECAUSE OF THE GREAT WORK THAT HE HAS DONE TO MAN AND THE GODHEAD RECONCILING THEM BOTH.
EVERY FLESH WAS CREATED BUT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SEED THAT GIVES BIRTH TO RECONCILATION AND THAT IS WHY HE SEEMED DEBASED AND PEOPLE COULD NOT ACCEPT HIM AS THE MESSIAH. IF HE CAME IN ALL HIS POWER HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STAND THE SIN OF MEN.
YOU KNOW THAT THE MESSIAH IS GOD HIMSELF THE JEWS KNOW THIS. SO HE BECAME FLESH MEANS HE MADE HIMSELF FLESH (SACPEGOAT) BUT THE WORD OF GOD SON OF GOD ( THAT THE KING OF PERSIA SAW IN THE FURNACE WHEN THE THREE HEBREW WAS THROWN IN) WAS NOT MADE.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by U1(m): 8:22pm On Jan 21, 2007|
Hey fellow!Believe it or not Jesus is God.How? I need you to read Isaiah 9:6-7.If you are still not convinced let me know.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by barikade: 8:36pm On Jan 21, 2007|
In regards to your teaching that Jesus Christ created Himself, can you please give some Scripture references to back it up as shahan did in hers. Personally, I don't think that He created Himself: that sounds really surprising, and it is not the same thing as Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 10:17pm On Jan 21, 2007|
Let Jah arise! the almighty, the LORD of heavenly armies,for scornful ones and those who deride you and your almightyness have arisen, abash and reduce them to nothingness. You re Jah, the manly person of war, Who can stand in your fury? Arise! Arise! Arise!, destroy the blinded hearts to see the light.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by barikade: 10:24pm On Jan 21, 2007|
Haba, 8oracle!! All that prayer just to prove that Jesus is "a lesser god"?
All we want is your verse where Jesus is called "a lesser god!" At least, we know that the "almightyness" will arise to defend you if you can find the verse that teaches what you teach. Until then, hold the prayer for now, lest it comes back to you.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 8oracle(m): 12:16am On Jan 22, 2007|
@bari kade: Did you read in John Chapter 14:28 where Jesus categorically stated and said" My father (the almighty God) is greater than I AM" What does that prove? or does such a verse do not exist in your bible?
Or havent read this? In John 5:30, Jesus said " I CANNOT DO ANYTHING THING of my own INITIATIVE, just as i hear, i judge, and they judgment that i render is righteous, BECAUSE i seek not my own will, but the will of him (God) that sent me. Does this makes sense to You?
Another, havent you read where he said that there things he and the angels do not know, except his father? Do You?
The almighty denotes having, awesome, limitless powers, and knowledge, do those three statements by christ said by him showed he has limitless power and knowledge? and being answerable to no one?
|Re: Is Jesus God? by barikade: 12:47am On Jan 22, 2007|
In all the texts you quoted, none of them called Jesus a "lesser god". You haven't proven that point yet.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 10:06am On Jan 22, 2007|
Col: 1 v
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16[b]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,[/b] whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
I think I have answered your question
The word Created all things Remember ( and God said let there be light)
|Re: Is Jesus God? by barikade: 10:18am On Jan 22, 2007|
Created all things - except Himself.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by Backslider(m): 10:41am On Jan 22, 2007|
The Son Of GOD, The Word was not created But was Made Flesh In Jesus. The EMBODIMENT OF GOD AND MAN.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 4getme1(m): 10:45am On Jan 22, 2007|
Amen. I believe the Bible says what it means and means what it says: Jesus the Logos is GOD! John 1:1.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by kobe(m): 11:39am On Jan 22, 2007|
its times like these I wonder:
Do we all speak of this same God? my Father? the only.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by 4getme1(m): 12:06pm On Jan 22, 2007|
We don't know everything about Him now, and we can know more by learning.
|Re: Is Jesus God? by kobe(m): 12:27pm On Jan 22, 2007|
Okay, I understand you now.
I prithee my Father, Elohi, that we do not transgress in our endeavours to unravel your mystery(even though we can't).
|Re: Is Jesus God? by jaybaby(f): 3:47pm On Jan 23, 2007|
Satan in human form
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