@ Oracle8,
What exactly is your stand? Your statements had more than enough errors embedded in it. Do you want me to show you where God even was present in Politics from the bible?

^ . . . Actually, he forgot to take them pills.

The statement above was directed to nigershit and the person quoting him.

mrpataki:

Do you want me to show you where God even was present in Politics from the bible?

1. Yes please
2. And please also show what you are inferring from God being active in politics?

God bless

Suddenly Mathew Chapter 3 vss 16,17 and John Chapter 17vss 1&5,has become a fish bone inserted in the throat of debaters, They re now looking for a crafty means of escape for which satan is its chief mastermind.

Am having myself a swell time.

Do you really have a case, . . . or your swell time translates to the fishbone in your throat? Just wondering about your vagueness.

Let's wonder about everbodies vagueness

Nobody here has a case, with bible quotes or without

@robby


There is no Oga In the Godhead and that is the reason why there will be alot of disappointments when some people get to heaven and they see that the once that served will be blessed.

It is service that Exalts one in heaven and that is why the by says that he had exalted the name of JESUS (even above the father) Because he Jesus came to save the world That is a Great job (service) to do.

The Server is Greater than the Sender In Heaven it is the reverse here. The Angels clamor to serve because it their source of Joy.

so no need to think that because Jesus was sent then it must mean that He was lesser that God The Father.

@shahan

i know it is a nigerian thing to reply questions with questions, thats why i am not surprised at your reply. however, to answer your question, i believe jesus was in heaven before he became a man. the scriptures indicate that to us. jesus himself said before Abraham was, he was. the book of proverbs in referring to jesus said when the earthwas been created he was there as 'his' master worker and what he was fond of were the sons of man. i believe jesus also said that no one has seen the father except the one (son) that descended. so, sir, to answer your question, i believe jesus lived in heaven before he came to earth, in fact, i believe i read once in the bible where jesus is called the first born of all creation. however, do you have another viewpoint to your question shahan? O enlighten us, O wise one!, ill be waiting to hear your explanation on the verses i quoted. (by the way, i hope you are aware that at no point have i taken a side on this matter, i just need further enlightenment)


@m4malik

let me play the nigerian devil's advocate to give you a reply. would you then say the bible contradicts itself? i have quoted from the bible and you have likewise done the same, and is it the same bible that throws so much different school of thoughts in the air? can you blend all those scripture together, both the ones i quoted and the ones you quoted?, (i just did the nigerian thing, reply a question with a question, so can you enlighten us as well)

@nigershit or whatever it is you call it,

there is a saying, great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people and issues! sir, what category would you place yourself, if in a thread of conversation that embodies the sacredness of religious divinity, you have the audacity to use profanity and make reference to obasanjo (no disrespect to the president, although he is no where comparable to Gods). what has fuel scarcity got to do with anything on this tread of conversation, my personal opinion, maybe you should sit back and learn from great minds with educated point of views, (maybe you should read more of what my fellow comrade such as shahan has to write, you might become more enlightened!) don't take it personal, its just an opinion!

damosky:

i know it is a nigerian thing to reply questions with questions, thats why i am not surprised at your reply.

What should have otherwise surprised you? The question only serves as a pointer back to your own question to help you see what you missed.

damosky:

however, to answer your question, i believe jesus was in heaven before he became a man.

Sorry, that was not my question. See again:

shahan:

@damosky,
. . .before Jesus became a Man, who was He?

"Who was He" was the question; not "where was He"!

damosky:

the scriptures indicate that to us. jesus himself said before Abraham was, he was. the book of proverbs in referring to jesus said when the earthwas been created he was there as 'his' master worker and what he was fond of were the sons of man.

In all this, WHO was Jesus before He became Man??

damosky:

i believe jesus also said that no one has seen the father except the one (son) that descended. so, sir, to answer your question, i believe jesus lived in heaven before he came to earth, in fact, i believe i read once in the bible where jesus is called the first born of all creation. however, do you have another viewpoint to your question shahan?

When you answer my question, I'll oblige you. It was a question about WHO [not where] He was!

damosky:

O enlighten us, O wise one!, ill be waiting to hear your explanation on the verses i quoted. (by the way, i hope you are aware that at no point have i taken a side on this matter, i just need further enlightenment)

I'm very aware you're neither here nor there, so no bother. And please, when you answer the question after carefully going through, perhaps you'd be further blessed before you come back.

damosky:

let me play the nigerian devil's advocate to give you a reply. would you then say the bible contradicts itself? i have quoted from the bible and you have likewise done the same, and is it the same bible that throws so much different school of thoughts in the air?

There are no different schools of thought until you make one, ala 'devil's advocate' as you said. if you carefully read through the Bible and not take a few texts here and there out of context, you school of thought(s) will disappear.

damosky:

can you blend all those scripture together, both the ones i quoted and the ones you quoted?, (i just did the nigerian thing, reply a question with a question, so can you enlighten us as well)

Easy, when you answer the first question (even with another question), then perhaps you'll understand why He was both Son of God and Son of Man.

damosky:

@nigershit or whatever it is you call it,
. . .
what has fuel scarcity got to do with anything on this tread of conversation, my personal opinion, maybe you should sit back and learn from great minds with educated point of views,

Abeg, help me ask the bobo!

damosky:

(maybe you should read more of what my fellow comrade such as shahan has to write, you might become more enlightened!) don't take it personal, its just an opinion!

Anyhow, I don't know it all or even better than anyone of us here. Point is that I throw in my bit as and when appropriate, as well as enjoy the brilliant minds in the arena.

Cheers bro.

HAS ANYONE NOT KNOWN YET, ??
WHAT CHRIST MEANT EVERYTIME HE SAID, "BEHOLD, IT IS I.
THE "I" MEANS HE IS THE LORD OF ALL, WHO FINALLY BECAME MANIFEST TO HIS CREATION, EVEN THE DEVIL WAS UNAWARE,
PRAISE THE LORD, \O/\O/\O/

Very Supernatural

HE SAID, "BEHOLD, IT IS I

What he probably meant was Hi, look it's me Jesus. I am home. Hey people look, It;s me JC, I am back from work.

Or could he have meant something deeper ?

Proverbs Chapter 11 vs 9: "By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin".

Job Chapter 13 vs 16: "Before him (God) no apostate will come in"

"Your Are the Christ the Son of the living God" So says the bible at Mathew 16:16

And how do Prov. 11:9 and Job 13:16 prove or disprove the deity of Jesus Christ?? Or, you have a quarrel with yourself??

I've been reading for a while and all I can say is that:
1. This is a debate that would be difficult to resolve because all the different factions are coming into it from different perspectives. And until you have the same basis, you cannot understand each other.
2. The Christians that have argued for Jesus being God, have done an excellent job.
3. To understand where God the Father was when Jesus died on the cross can only be understood, if you see God as omnipresent, He is not confined by space.
4. To my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, in trying to explain this concept to the others, let us desist from insult or condescending statements. Let's follow the words of Apostle Paul, who exhorted us not to involve ourselves in foolish arguments. After a while, discussions can turn into foolish arguments that could get personal, I beleive that is when we should take a step back

Efen: The almighty God is in heaven waiting for his Son Christ Jesus to return and give the account of his stewardship whih christ did 40 days after his ressurrection Open Your bible and read (Acts of Apostles Chapter 1vs 3) and he did went to his faher into heaven itself to give this account which will warrant his former rightfull place before he can down to the earth (Hebrew 9:24) read "For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands which is a copy of reality, but into heaven itself now to APPEAR before the PERSON of God. Compare aslo hebrews 10vs 12 ypu maybe suprised that apostle Paul reffered him there as a man.

Efen facts about Jesus have to be put aright, apostate proffessed weed like christains have done grave danger to christainity by devil induced teachings and customs, sowing these confusion have gone a long way barring many to come to accurate knowledge of God and His Son. That Jesus is not God The Almighty is not an insult or degrading to him, rather let him be appropiated the title due him.(!1) as the firstborn son of God,and the beginining of God's creation, (2) As God's servant and savior of mankind through his sin atone sacrifices.

@shashan think and meditiate on those scriptures, if you actually know what thinking and meditiation is all about

8oracle:

@shashan think and meditiate on those scriptures, if you actually know what thinking and meditiation is all about

In other words, you have a quarrel with him simply because his points differ from yours? Hmmm!

bari kade, Even Christ Jesus rebuked severly the Pharises and having ears but can not hear and having eyes but can not see or read,(Jews) They re always occupied with desires and intents of their hearts which re inimical to God's.Misleading and been mislead

8oracle:

Efen: The almighty God is in heaven waiting for his Son Christ Jesus to return and give the account of his stewardship whih christ did 40 days after his ressurrection Open Your bible and read (Acts of Apostles Chapter 1vs 3) and he did went to his faher into heaven itself to give this account which will warrant his former rightfull place before he can down to the earth (Hebrew 9:24) read "For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands which is a copy of reality, but into heaven itself now to APPEAR before the PERSON of God. Compare aslo hebrews 10vs 12 ypu maybe suprised that apostle Paul reffered him there as a man.

Are you for real? So tell me where is Christ at the moment?
Am highly interested in this new theory of yours.

@8oracle,

Okay, I'm back. I sought to engage in dialogue with you as every reasonable person should, but your latest entries have been somewhat jocular - and that's good for the laughs.

Anyhow, no worries about your polarised emphases on the Humanity of Jesus Christ. What I would like you to do is give us your own interpretation of the following texts:

John 1:1 - the Word was God
Who is the Word in that text?
What did the verse say He actually is?

Isaiah 9:6 - "and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
Who is called "The mighty God" in this verse?
What does that say about Jesus Christ?

Rev. 22:12-13
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according
as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and
the last."
Who was speaking in that verse?
What did He call Himself?

Nevermind the 'apostate' and all else you thought of me: can't hate you for that, bro.

However, with much love and patience, my style is to reason with people and get the gist of what brought us here in the first place. And I trust you'd tackle those verses as best you can. Much blessing.

datz all i can do but shed tears for he that doesnt know jesus as lord. Does guiness book of records not tell you that the mosty important thing and most popular thing in the world is CHRISTIANITY? Which was gotton from the word "jesus christ". he is the God of heaven and earth and the ruler of the universe, just say alittle prayer and ask him to come into your heart and you will have a personal experince if he is GOd or not. dont forget that in asking yuo dont need to doubt, just believe; thats the only way to get to know if he's God or not. experience is the best teacher.

@shahan


who was He?, He was a spirit creature who resided in heaven. Correct me if i am wrong and kindly render further explanation on all the scriptures since quoted in this dialogue. by the way, i am curious as to where you get your understnding from.

@damosky,

Thanks for yours, and here's a link where I'll be posting some outlines to some of these questions.

Who Was Jesus Before He Became A Man?

To answer your question succinctly here: He was God before He became Man. The reasons why He was not a created angel are given on the page to the link above. More questions welcome.

Bless.

@mrpataki,pls grab some schooling even if the night one just like me, This will enable you read between the lines, "Jesus Is Now In Heaven Sitting Majestically at the right hand side of God",Maybe you didnt see a quoted scripture like Hebrew 10:12. Even late faithfull Stephen was given the rare privilege to see that, thru vision (Acts7 vss 55,56)

@ shahan: Prophet Isaiah knew what he was talking about, and who he was reffering to, their expected messiah. Though a humle prophet he was ,he had no theological, or unversity education, knew the clear difference between "The Almighty God" Genesis 17vs1(Absolute) and the messiah "The mighty God" (Relative).

A little research (by reading other bible rendering of same verse) will go a long way to clear the fuzzy nature of your king James bible and others along same translation line written under the prying and bearing eyes of political authorities like King James and King Henry V111, William Tyndale contested the inconsistent nature vss 1 has with vs 18 of same chapter,(One cannot be with someone and be the same person) am not fully a student of history, but its on record that,that cost him his life and evidence of his burning on the stake ( a church door scorched by the heat of the fire) still stands in England today.

Maybe someday when you have cash to spare, take a visit to Hebraic Mesieum in Tel Aviv,original text of this bible still remain. You will be given all the asistance to make all research thereof, even ancient manuscript written during same time, like Josephus,Pling the Younger etc can help clear you this fuzzy nature of Jesus that many have failed to grasp.

8oracle:

@ shahan: Prophet Isaiah knew what he was talking about, and who he was reffering to, their expected messiah. Though a humle prophet he was ,he had no theological, or unversity education, knew the clear difference between "The Almighty God" Genesis 17vs1(Absolute) and the messiah "The mighty God" (Relative).

If there is a difference between "The Almighty God" as absolute and "The mighty God" as relative, doesn't that suppose that you're worshipping two Gods and therefore defeating your own argument? You can't go round this issue with such reasoning; but let me help you.

There are several other scriptures that declare God both as "Almight" and as "Mighty". These are not two separate "Gods" but the very same One. If you state that the mighty God refers to the Messiah (and therefore, Jesus), are you willing to apply the same rule to the other scriptures where the term appear? Let me break it down:

According to you, the mighty God refers to the Messiah (i.e., Jesus); therefore, do the following refer to the same Messiah?? Here:

Deut. 7:21
"Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible."

Jer. 32:18
"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name."

Hab. 1:12
"Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction."

Psa. 50:1
"The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof."

Now, you see, 8oracle that if you equate the mighty God to the Messiah, then infact the Messiah indeed was the very same One whom the Jews worshipped as The LORD (i.e., Jehovah). Are you now convinced that Jesus is the mighty God and the very same Jehovah of the O.T.?

Further, let's establish the fact that "the mighty God" is the very same "Almighty God" in the Scriptures. Notice in the verses above that the mighty God is called the LORD? Jer. 32:18 identifies the mighty God as "the LORD of hosts"; while Psa. 50:1 refers to the mighty God as "even the LORD". So, if the mighty God is the Messiah, then the same Messiah is the LORD of hosts. And what the mighty God is called, is the same that the Almighty was called in the O.T. - the LORD!! See the following:

Gen. 17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."

Exo. 6:3
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

The point I am trying to make here is that there is only one God; and the mighty God is the very same as the Almighty God (or, God Almighty). To infer that they are different and separate is not sustained in God's Word, otherwise such a person would be worshipping "two Gods"!

8oracle:

A little research (by reading other bible rendering of same verse) will go a long way to clear the fuzzy nature of your king James bible and others along same translation line written under the prying and bearing eyes of political authorities like King James and King Henry V111, William Tyndale contested the inconsistent nature vss 1 has with vs 18 of same chapter,(One cannot be with someone and be the same person) am not fully a student of history, but its on record that,that cost him his life and evidence of his burning on the stake ( a church door scorched by the heat of the fire) still stands in England today.

Sad history, no doubt. However, William Tyndale was not basing his argument on what the Bible texts declared, but on his personal assumptions. When he argued that "one cannot be with someone and be the same person," he was rather closing his eyes against the testimony of God's Word. Let me illustrate the point:

Zec. 12:10
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

This is one classic example of how God speaks of the work He would accomplish by Himself. Notice the construct of the divine afflatus - first, God speaks of Himself in a first person singular pronoun (me); then He speaks of Himself as of someone else in the second person singular pronoun (him). The outline is this:

(a) ". . .they shall look upon me whom they have pierced

(b) ". . .they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,

Do you see the example here presented in what William Tyndale coulnd't understand? Here God Himself was speaking as our Redeemer: the One who comes by Himself as our perfect Sacrifice. When He says "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced," of course, that reminds us of the Messiah, Jesus. But then again, He refers to Himself in (b) above as "him" - indicating that He is the very same One.

I submit therefore that Tyndale, praised for his courage against the tide of religious corruption in his day, yet was unable to see this point and as such denied it on the premise of his weakness about John 1:1 & 18.

8oracle:

Maybe someday when you have cash to spare, take a visit to Hebraic Mesieum in Tel Aviv,original text of this bible still remain. You will be given all the asistance to make all research thereof, even ancient manuscript written during same time, like Josephus,Pling the Younger etc can help clear you this fuzzy nature of Jesus that many have failed to grasp.

I assure you indeed that there's nothing fuzzy about the understanding of the deity of Jesus. Men will go any length seeking some remote document to deny what they cannot accept in the Bible - I'm not one of them. But even then, the Bible still has the clear text to assure us that Jesus Christ was known as God by the apostles and early Christians.

If you could access the writings of the early Church Fathers, please understand that they actually believed in the deity of Jesus Christ - and these documents are as well dated closer to the first century just about the time of the apostles. Sample the following:

Ignatius of Antioch,To the Ephesians,7(A.D. 110):
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin "

Tatian the Syrian,Oration Against the Greeks,21(c.A.D.175)
"We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man." [compare John 1:14 & I Tim. 3:16].

St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, (c. A.D.105-115?)
"I extol Jesus Christ, the God who has granted you such wisdom."

There are volumes of such attestation that Jesus Christ was believed to be God come in flesh. And I do hope that these have helped your understanding. More questions welcome.

Cheers.

@ backslider,
If you know the song "holy, holy, holy, " you would understand what i am saying

yes jesus is God. Amen thank you lord

@venusmaze: if actually your location is in canterbury uk,The evidence of William Tyndale burning which scorched a church door within your neighbourhood is still there, Or you might be a relation of one canterbury bishop who denied the ressurection of Jesus christ calling it a magical trickery.

But am afraid somehow you re somewhere in okrika water side diseased by the constant mad ranting of jobless pastors whose early morning wake up call quote you" yes jesus is God, amen thank you lord"

@8oracle,

There's really no need for your rantings - you only help to promote your weakness.

What we're all interested in here on this thread is to proffer proof from God's Word why Jesus cannot be God. Several people here have gone deep enough to do that, and if they didn't quite hit the point in your own perspective, the brilliant thing to do is come up with Scriptures that negate those points. What do you have to say about the concrete and well articulated outlines by shahan?

@shahan,

Oga sir, many thanks for adding to my understanding on the subject. More blessings.

u just said my mind m4mamlik