@tiatma:

@mavenbox

Two questions to start with please

1) Are you single, married, separated or divorced?

2) What is your stand on divorce (i.e. belief about divorce in regards to God and the Bible)

Ta-ta.

Thanks for getting the thread back on its wheels from a retarded onslaught.

1. I decline to answer this question, and I hope you don't mind (not that there is anything I can do if you do mind), but I get a lot of joy from my privacy.

2.

Mat 19:3 And Pharisees came to Him and put Him to the test by asking, Is it lawful and right to dismiss and repudiate and divorce one's wife for any and every cause?

Mat 19:4 He replied, Have you never read that He Who made them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 19:5 And said, For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be united firmly (joined inseparably) to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? [Gen. 1:27; 2:24.]

Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder (separate).

Mat 19:7 They said to Him, Why then did Moses command [us] to give a certificate of divorce and thus to dismiss and repudiate a wife? [Deut. 24:1-4.]

Mat 19:8 He said to them, Because of the hardness (stubbornness and perversity) of your hearts Moses permitted you to dismiss and repudiate and divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been so [ordained].

Mat 19:9 I say to you: whoever dismisses (repudiates, divorces) his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Therefore, I believe what Jesus said: no one should get divorced. Whoever gets divorced from their spouse has simply committed a sin, and of course, there is forgiveness for sins; but we should never forget that a sin is like a wound inflicted on the body: it will heal (forgiveness) but eventually the scar will remain.

Jesus makes a minor exception in Matt 19:9 => divorce as a result of infidelity. But even with that, the offended party should be able to forgive the other, but if he/she can't handle it (Christ's yoke is never too heavy to bear), then they can divorce.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

What I mean is that Christian divorcees will be forgiven of their sins if they ask for forgiveness, will be blessed by God if they repent (i.e. if either one has not yet re-married), but if they have re-married (thus committing adultery, Matt 19:9) they can ask for forgiveness, be sanctified again by the Holy Spirit; and bear much fruit. But the scars will remain for a while: such scars as family heart-aches due to the children separation (if any) or matters of alimony.

I hope your question is answered, tiatma.

Cheers

mavenbox:


@tiatma:
Thanks for getting the thread back on its wheels from a retarded onslaught.

1. I decline to answer this question, and I hope you don't mind (not that there is anything I can do if you do mind), but I get a lot of joy from my privacy.

2. Therefore, I believe what Jesus said: no one should get divorced. Whoever gets divorced from their spouse has simply committed a sin, and of course, there is forgiveness for sins; but we should never forget that a sin is like a wound inflicted on the body: it will heal (forgiveness) but eventually the scar will remain.

Jesus makes a minor exception in Matt 19:9 => divorce as a result of infidelity. But even with that, the offended party should be able to forgive the other, but if he/she can't handle it (Christ's yoke is never too heavy to bear), then they can divorce.

What I mean is that Christian divorcees will be forgiven of their sins if they ask for forgiveness, will be blessed by God if they repent (i.e. if either one has not yet re-married), but if they have re-married (thus committing adultery, Matt 19:9) they can ask for forgiveness, be sanctified again by the Holy Spirit; and bear much fruit. But the scars will remain for a while: such scars as family heart-aches due to the children separation (if any) or matters of alimony.

I hope your question is answered, tiatma.

Cheers

@mavenbox

Thanks for your responses, I can live with question #1 not answered; it doesnt matter anyway because I mistook you for someone else prior to posting that question

Two more questions please


1) On which grounds is divorce acceptable for the children of light, feel free to provide scriptural references to back up with?

mavenbox:


. . . Jesus makes a minor exception in Matt 19:9 => divorce as a result of infidelity.
But even with that, the offended party should be able to forgive the other . . .

2) Are you sure Jesus made a minor exception to divorce?

2b) If your response is positive, what was the operative word used for the exception, feel free to back up with scriptural reference and Bible version or versions

Ta-ta again

haha. I didnt even know Viaro had already called u out on this shit. It's ok then. Others are aware of your phoneyness. It's just kinda sad how easily u tell lies. 

Can u please provide a website for this Dallas Bible College? They don't seem to come up on google. And the site that i can find for them seems not to be in use. 

mavenbox:

And, yes, I am ignoring you and viaro for a purpose that you (both?) know. If these constant waves of accusation constitute a way of keeping me in conversation, trust me I will soon keep quiet to you on this entire matter.

Dear mavenbox,

I'm sorry that my commendation (or anything I said) would have irked you in that manner as to draw me in that quote. It was indeed silly of me to have teased Krayola in your thread (he knows me. . I often tease him between times, regardless the thread where I find him online). That said, I do not change anything about what I said earlier in commending your efforts; I was just wondering what I might have done to have drawn your disapproval in that manner. But to reassure you, there's no 'purpose' behind the scenes up my street to derail your conversation or clog the flow somewhere and somehow. Please forgive any inconveniences I might have caused you; and I shall promptly withdraw from this space.

Many blessings.

haha. oya. In the name of peace and civility, I will follow Viaro's lead and "withdraw from this space". Have fun bamboozling people.

It has appeared that someone on this thread has a severe case of Multiple Personality Disorder.

@tiatma: I am sorry, but I am choosing not to go into details any longer on this thread.

1. As I said before, divorce is a sin (missing the mark of God's standard for marriage). There is no sin acceptable for the children of light, and neither is divorce. See Matthew 19:3-8 (Amplified Bible). But then, all sins are forgivable. So Christian divorcees are not damned or any such thing.

2. Where does Jesus make a minor "exception"?

Mat 19:9 I say to you: whoever dismisses (repudiates, divorces) his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Please note the boldened answer to 2b above.

I refer to it as a minor exception because as Jesus had CLEARLY explained before, no man was to put asunder what God had joined together (Matthew 19:6) and as such, divorce was NEVER really an option. But if the man felt he couldn't live with it, then he had the choice to divorce her (the fact that it mentions a man and an unfaithful wife, I believe, does not exclude the gender reversal as well). As much as this was not God's design, yet it was a minor window of escape because some people may not find it tolerable to live with one that they have found to be unfaithful, maybe even caught in the act.

I'm sorry I have no other verses to back up my beliefs, because it appears Jesus is the only one who talked about divorce in the New testament, and all that we have to go by in the OT was Moses' laws [Deut 24:1-4] which Jesus had to improve upon because of the wickedness of the Jews' hearts (I assume this to mean that maybe they had a habit of repudiating their wives consecutively in order to marry another one lawfully). Mere speculation, you may say, but this is the understanding I have, backing up my beliefs.

I believe as you well know, not everything that is SCRIPTURE for the New Man is found in words in the New Testament; sometimes we get direct revelation from the Spirit of God. What I have said above is what the Holy Spirit explained to me, and it is good enough for me. Best regards,

Hello mavenbox,
Not to bother you,may i ask if you are still interested in responding to the last question i directed to you?

@Alex0026: No, Alex, I didn't see any question! I thought you were stating a summary of your own beliefs about the flood, and I accordingly took them as your own ideal perspectives and opinions, I did (and still do) not want to subject the opinions and beliefs to a debate since that is not the reason I created the thread. Thanks!
-Mavenbox

mavenbox:


It has appeared that someone on this thread has a severe case of Multiple Personality Disorder.

@tiatma: I am sorry, but I am choosing not to go into details any longer on this thread.

1. As I said before, divorce is a sin (missing the mark of God's standard for marriage). There is no sin acceptable for the children of light, and neither is divorce. See Matthew 19:3-8 (Amplified Bible). But then, all sins are forgivable. So Christian divorcees are not damned or any such thing.

2. Where does Jesus make a minor "exception"?
Please note the boldened answer to 2b above.

I refer to it as a minor exception because as Jesus had CLEARLY explained before, no man was to put asunder what God had joined together (Matthew 19:6) and as such, divorce was NEVER really an option. But if the man felt he couldn't live with it, then he had the choice to divorce her (the fact that it mentions a man and an unfaithful wife, I believe, does not exclude the gender reversal as well). As much as this was not God's design, yet it was a minor window of escape because some people may not find it tolerable to live with one that they have found to be unfaithful, maybe even caught in the act.

I'm sorry I have no other verses to back up my beliefs, because it appears Jesus is the only one who talked about divorce in the New testament, and all that we have to go by in the OT was Moses' laws [Deut 24:1-4] which Jesus had to improve upon because of the wickedness of the Jews' hearts (I assume this to mean that maybe they had a habit of repudiating their wives consecutively in order to marry another one lawfully). Mere speculation, you may say, but this is the understanding I have, backing up my beliefs.

I believe as you well know, not everything that is SCRIPTURE for the New Man is found in words in the New Testament; sometimes we get direct revelation from the Spirit of God. What I have said above is what the Holy Spirit explained to me, and it is good enough for me. Best regards,

@mavenbox

There was a 65 year old female posting in this forum a while back - possibly 2 - 3 months back

Cant remember her user ID, I found her postings and responses without venom intriguing, refreshing etc

I thought you were her and decided to take up her offer (i.e.  Feel Free To Ask Me Questions On My Beliefs About The God Who Revealed The Bible) to ask her questions

The idea was to check her standings and theology to find out how much she has studied to show herself approved unto God

She definitely isnt Nigerian and doesnt write pidgins

I only found out in some of your posts that you're likely Nigerian and occassionally drop pidgins so this is a case of mistaken identity

and definitely one of barking up the wrong tree.

PS

tiatma:


Two more questions please

1) On which grounds is divorce acceptable for the children of light, feel free to provide scriptural references to back up with?

2) Are you sure Jesus made a minor exception to divorce?

2b) If your response is positive, what was the operative word used for the exception, feel free to back up with scriptural reference and Bible version or versions

Simple questions requiring simple answers

1) "On which grounds is divorce acceptable for the children of light" notice I intentionally didnt use christian

>> Question was whether there is a ground for divorce for the children of light or not and not whether it is a sin or not

2) Are you sure Jesus made a minor exception to divorce?

>> A close question requiring a Yes or No - didnt get a Yes or No answer to that

2b) If your response is positive, what was the operative word used for the exception, feel free to back up with scriptural reference and Bible version or versions

>> . . . except for unchastity . . .

Ignore all my questions, they werent intended for you at all, you re-worded them when answering, went off tangent and made or took too many assumptions when responding without an emphatic answer

I have no further questions for you.

I also wont be taking you up on your assertions (i.e. . . . except for unchastity . . . ) or whether that is the original text or term used. I am leaving that for others and posterity to take on if they will or want

Ta-ta for taking time out to respond

If I can manage I will trawl NL to sieve out the poster I mistook for you

Maybe someone that recognises the poster I am referring to can drop her user ID

or the poster can identify herself

^{The Spirit of Truth doesnt contradict the word of God, no matter the revelation.
The Old Testament conceals the New Testament, and the New Testament reveals the Old Testament
They all compliment each other . . .}

Hi mavenbox; and greetings to all,

I thoroughly read your lengthy reply; very constructive but highly cunning. So I had to say, for so I found it. Hope that means nothing bad. Thanks.

First of all, remember my question has a single bearing, i.e. to your professed faith, which is Christianity. Thus what brought Islam into the answer? And, who told you killing an apostate is Islamic? Where is that mentioned in the Qur’an? Well . . . we’ve had that discussion much recently on this board. Here is the link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-338294.0.html

Regarding the mention of apostate in Old Testament; why do you think God revealed the law and laid down the punishment for its violators if truly a Jew can’t be an apostate? Why? I certainly know you can’t expect God to err that obvious or rather make that blunder, huh? There must be wisdom behind revealing the verse, the punishment and the likes regarding apostates. Hence think another way of justifying your unjustifiable stance. Waiting ton read it.

Secondly, Jesus clearly said in New Testament that he hasn’t come to abolish Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:17-18), right? Why nowadays Christians like you choose to follow some of these laws, and discard some? Any way, isn’t there any mention of apostate in the New Testament? Do you mean to tell me only Old Testament contains mention of apostate? Really don’t think . . . although I barely read bible these days. But I can still do some research on that if time permits.

Without much derailment of the OP, I wonder what kind of religion is Christianity, at least the kind practice by nowadays people. You’ll see a Christian committing all sorts of vices, and when you ask him why he is behaving this way, he answers (that) Jesus died for his sins, hence he is free. I wonder: free? My God! But after a minute in the field of wonder I kind of concur with him, for I have never heard of any prescribed punishment for any evil/vice doer, ranging from lying, stealing, adultery, fornication, raping, homosexuality, and so on.

@tiatma:

It has appeared that someone on this thread has a severe case of Multiple Personality Disorder.

The one I was referring to, really, really does know him/herself. Now I didn't post that with @tiatma, did I? 

I am not your 65 year old Nairaland friend, but if I meet her here I will let you know, okay?

1. It's a simple question, which I answered by a simple logical answer:
--------

On which grounds is divorce acceptable for the children of light, feel free to provide scriptural references to back up with?

--------

1. As I said before, divorce is a sin (missing the mark of God's standard for marriage). There is no sin acceptable for the children of light, and neither is divorce. See Matthew 19:3-8 (Amplified Bible). But then, all sins are forgivable. So Christian divorcees are not damned or any such thing.

--------Divorce is a sin (see previous posts), and since SIN is not acceptable for the children of light, it should appear that DIVORCE cannot be acceptable to the children of light.

Some ninnyhammers on this thread had managed to exasperate me, so I was weary and I just assumed you would read between the lines.

2.

Are you sure Jesus made a minor exception to divorce?

>> A close question requiring a Yes or No - didnt get a Yes or No answer to that

If you want a cut-and-dried Yes/No canned response, it is YES I am sure.
Of course I am sure, that is why I call it my BELIEF. I assumed that anything you read on this thread will be taken as my entire belief, of which I am sure.

The Spirit of Truth doesnt contradict the word of God, no matter the revelation.
The Old Testament conceals the New Testament, and the New Testament reveals the Old Testament
They all compliment each other . . .

And that's the truth. Best regards!

@muhsin:
I repeated tiatma's words from the post above to respond to what you said about the abolished Mosaic laws and the Christian faith.

And please, can you tell me where you found "APOSTATE" in the OT? I explained logically to you that one cannot be an apostate of the Jewish faith (see posts above), according to Jewish customs and beliefs. It may be hard for an outsider (non-Jew) to understand, though.

You asked for my beliefs, and you got them. If what you want is an argument, no, you won't get it. Cheers!

Peace,

The problem I find with religion especially Christianity is it slippery nature. Someone asked a Question whether there is a ground for divorce, and mavenbox answered that divorce is a sin but then went to give an exception on the grounds of infidelity. So in effect, according to Christianity divorce is allowed on the grounds of infidelity.

What i find about Christianity stand on divorce is its failure in adopting to our present situation. If you were talking about two thousand years ago where marriages were often a family affair between two closely related families, we can understand the disapproval of divorces, but nowadays when you meet a girl at work or on holiday and you can get married even before your parents gets to meet your spouse, you will find that most often than not, grievous mistakes are made in choosing spouses and you cannot wish away divorces, even among Pastors and Bishops. I know of a particular situation where a man married a drug addict and during the short courtship, that fact was hidden from the guy. Now a few months after the marriage, the guy realized he had made a mistake and has to deal with the fact that his wife was a drug addict. He later filed for divorce a year later order to regain his sanity. Are you saying he should suffer for the rest of his life because he made a mistake, because he does not want to sin?.

there is a friend that also told me his uncle married a lady who had Multiple Personality Disorder and he was unaware of it in over one year of courtship, their divorce case is still in court but he hardly sleeps at home anymore.

So the problems of divorce is a very complex problem due to our present complex society in which we live.

In my opinion religious teachings come out of a specific context and cater to specific societal needs. When these teachings are not allowed to evolve with society, and are taken as timeless binding truths, we can run into major problems. That is, in my opinion, a major danger of fundamentalism. That because the author of a certain document puts certain words in the mouth of Jesus, we are all bound to them till the end of time? I find that absolutely ludicrous.

That is right. Society is very dynamic, so religion and even civil laws must keep up with the society. One of the reason i believe Nigeria is not making progress is that our laws are archaic, we are still operating with a lot of Laws and structures left over by the British 50 yrs ago.

I remember a particular case, when i was living in Ijesha. It happened in my wife's church to one of the sisters. The sister in question got married to someone that the pastor proposed, as the Man went to the pastor to help convince the lady to marry him, according to the usual excuse of " God showed me in a dream".  So an elaborate wedding took place after a short courtship (no sex of course). Then came the wedding night and the man was unable to perform his manly duties as Mr long was long dead. The lady in question cried and complained to my wife. Well we have since left the area and i do not know how they resolved their problem.

So how does the church help such a couple? If the Lady asked for a divorce would you blame her as she was not aware of the situation before she got married?

@mavenbox,

Still waiting for your response to my last reply above.

wirinet:

The problem I find with religion especially Christianity is it slippery nature. Someone asked a Question whether there is a ground for divorce, and mavenbox answered that divorce is a sin but then went to give an exception on the grounds of infidelity. So in effect, according to Christianity divorce is allowed on the grounds of infidelity.

What i find about Christianity stand on divorce is its failure in adopting to our present situation. If you were talking about two thousand years ago where marriages were often a family affair between two closely related families, we can understand the disapproval of divorces, but nowadays when you meet a girl at work or on holiday and you can get married even before your parents gets to meet your spouse, you will find that most often than not, grievous mistakes are made in choosing spouses and you cannot wish away divorces, even among Pastors and Bishops. I know of a particular situation where a man married a drug addict and during the short courtship, that fact was hidden from the guy. Now a few months after the marriage, the guy realized he had made a mistake and has to deal with the fact that his wife was a drug addict. He later filed for divorce a year later order to regain his sanity. Are you saying he should suffer for the rest of his life because he made a mistake, because he does not want to sin?.there is a friend that also told me his uncle married a lady who had Multiple Personality Disorder and he was unaware of it in over one year of courtship, their divorce case is still in court but he hardly sleeps at home anymore.So the problems of divorce is a very complex problem due to our present complex society in which we live.

You are allowed to divorce based on sexual unchastity by your spouse. However, if you divoirce for other reasons, you have committed a sin which is forgiveable if you confess it. The forgiveness of sin does not absolve you from God's natural laws (Karma, etc). Hope that helps?

@Abuzola: I doubt that you really have a job as you have claimed! Even your own Muslim brethren have problems with you. You have been banned so many times on Nairaland and you keep coming back with different user IDs.

@Muhsin: but I did answer you, I said

@tiatma:
Quote
The Spirit of Truth doesnt contradict the word of God, no matter the revelation.
The Old Testament conceals the New Testament, and the New Testament reveals the Old Testament
They all compliment each other . . .
And that's the truth. Best regards!

@muhsin:
I repeated tiatma's words from the post above to respond to what you said about the abolished Mosaic laws and the Christian faith.

And please, can you tell me where you found "APOSTATE" in the OT? I explained logically to you that one cannot be an apostate of the Jewish faith (see posts above), according to Jewish customs and beliefs. It may be hard for an outsider (non-Jew) to understand, though.

You asked for my beliefs, and you got them. If what you want is an argument, no, you won't get it. Cheers!

@Marlbron:

You are allowed to divorce based on sexual unchastity by your spouse. However, if you divorce for other reasons, you have committed a sin which is forgiveable if you confess it. The forgiveness of sin does not absolve you from God's natural laws ("Karma", etc). Hope that helps?

Thanks! I love that, Marlbron. You effectively summarized my entire long gist into just three sentences!

@Tiatma/Wirinet:
I was asked what I BELIEVE and I answered. Whether you should believe it, too, is what you need to answer for yourself!

@Wirinet:
You mentioned Drug Abuse, MPD and sexual incompetency. Now, may I point out to you, that these reasons do not excuse one from that defined umbrella of "sin" by nature of divorce for other reasons than sexual unchastity? This is because the man/woman involved in each case you mentioned, I believe, made a mistake by marrying the wrong person (which is a "sin". Never forget that "sin" as a word originated from the ancient days of archery, sin was a word used to describe what happens when an archer shoots the arrow and misses the bulls' eye. So, as long as it was not God's intention for the guy to marry a drug abuser or MPD sufferer, then the guy "sinned" by marrying such a person.

This sin, like gas gangrene, will spread into one of two other sins: either the person lives with it and sins further everyday, or the person divorces the partner (which is also a sin, unless the partner gave him/her further reason for that e.g. adultery). Either way, the person sinned by marrying the wrong person, and the "karma" (permit the word) consequences will follow, leading into either divorce or spiritual, mental/emotional and physical frustration.

Is that fair, then? Judgment is what comes to people, by virtue of their actions. Just like, if I walk in a straight line from this study-desk, after a while, I will hit the wall. It just has to happen, with no man's help. The judgment upon someone who marries the wrong person (rather than consulting God in the first case and getting the right person) will certainly come upon them, and the person will probably enter into more sin.

Or what would you say about a teenager, a rich handsome guy, who sinned against his father by running away with the father's money, and then he got mixed up with drug abusers and cougars (female sexual predators) and then got HIV/AIDS? Agreed, he comes back home and is forgiven, the drug abuse is weaned off him and he is able to stay clean. What about the HIV/AIDS? It has no cure yet, but it can be managed. It is the judgment for the initial sin (mistake) of leaving home in the first case. If he never left home, he probably won't have fallen into the hands of cougars. true, he may still have gotten HIV/AIDS from a casual girlfriend, but it may not occur so certainly as it occurs in the wilds. This is just a similar case to that of someone who gets mixed up with the wrong person and has to divorce them later. It is a sin built upon the foundation of another sin.

[size=14pt]Remember, "sin" as I have indicated, refers to a mistake. With respect to God, it is a mistake that could have been avoided by receiving God's counsel and following it through.[/size]

Mavenbox,

Kudos for sharing your beliefs and running away from arguing with people of other faith. I still see some stalking you on this thread!

I will like you to address reincarnation. What you understand about it and what christ said about it.

@mavenbox,

You asked for my beliefs, and you got them. If what you want is an argument, no, you won't get it. Cheers!

OK. You just don't wanna answer me. I understand. Cheerio!

@marlbron: I believe reincarnation is not preached as true, with regards to the Bible.

In looking at the Bible, one gets the clear picture that humans die only once, and that their disembodied spirits go to a “realm of the dead” to wait for the final judgment. The idea of reincarnation does not derive from nor can it be sustained by, the Bible.

The only argument that people find, for reincarnation in the Old testament, is found in Job.

'He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.' Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men, To bring back his soul from the pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life. (Job 33:28-30)

However, it's not true because it was spoken by Elihu, who was in error about the nature of God's judgment of Job. Never forget that they lived in the Eastern parts of the world, and other religions preaching reincarnation were in abundance.

The strongest argument against reincarnation in the New testament is

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

This is because Jesus Christ was offered ONCE. So, man dies ONCE as well, because the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was substitutionary. If reincarnation occurs in an endless (or numerable count) loop, then the sacrifice of Christ would make no meaning / be of no effect, because the aim of reincarnation is to have another chance at getting things right.

OLD TESTAMENT REFUTATIONS OF REINCARNATION

"When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, So he who goes down to Sheol does not come up." He will not return again to his house, Nor will his place know him anymore. (Job 7:9-10)

While still growing and uncut, they wither more quickly than grass. Such is the destiny of all who forget God; so perishes the hope of the godless. (Job 8:12-13)

Before I go-- and I shall not return-- To the land of darkness and deep shadow; (Job 10:21)

But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. (Job 14:10-12)

"For when a few years are past, I shall go the way of no return. (Job 16:22)

NEW TESTAMENT REFUTATIONS OF REINCARNATION
Jesus, in His teachings, indicated that people would have only one chance to obtain eternal life, otherwise suffer eternal punishment:

    If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. (Matthew 18:8 )

    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

    "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:46)

    "Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." (Matthew 12:45)

    " Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first." (Luke 11:26)

Other NT verses about death and reincarnation

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Hebrews 6:1-2)
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)

I hope my points are clear (I have heard that my posts are getting harder to comprehend). Cheers!

@Mavenbox

1. Did any OT prophets preach Trinity?

I dont need to tell about my knowledge in Bible and Christianity as a whole. I asked you a question and expected you to tell me verses where prophets before Jesus preached that. I also read prop[hecies linked to some that were not meant to be. I wouldnt want to go into that but please give me veses where those before Jesus preached that. When we are through, we will go into your response to my second question where you quoted Isaiah but forgot to read the read from the biginning that it was not for whom you thought. I perused but read you hiding behind Genesis without proper knowledge.

So please let me have the verses and we move one.

Please, no lenghty stories but facts with verses to support same

@babs787:

As I already explained to you, there was progressive revelation knowledge. The OT people could not have known about the term "trinity" but they definitely interacted with the Trinity e.g. Abraham and Sarai were visited by three "men" who turned out to be "like angels" but in their communication they delivered God's promises to him, and I ALREADY gave other examples in earlier posts above. Sorry I am quite busy now. Maybe i will come back and update this post. Cheers.

Mavenbox,

Nice to hear your views, but with ALL due respects, they appear to me to be inaccurate and in conflict with the teachings of God (Jesus).

Here are my rebuttals:


1) Understand that man is made up of Spirit, blood and water. The physical building can collapse, but the inhabitant moves to another house in another plane. A snail can shed his shell for a one, huh? The spirit component of man is the only part that cannot be seen, but it is real. It gives life. Note that when Christ woke Lazarus from the dead, it was Lazurus's spirit that returned and he rose from the dead.

2) After, each existence, the spirit gives account and faces judgement by God. Whether good or bad, it can be returned to earth, through birth to live another existence, during which it will face the judgement. Take for instance, a Man X , kills two people at a point in his life. Later in life, he falls sick and dies. God's natural law does not give him the right to take a life, so at death, spirit X faces judgement. On reicarnation, he could be a pastor with a large congregation.living a very righteous life. Perhaps married with a good family, with a name- Y. One night, two armed gang attack Y and he is killed. His relation cry their heart out, but the guy is gone. THe armed robbers, unwittingly carries out God's assignment. Mr. Y's death confirms the saying you quoted from the bible: , after death, judgement , Elijah murdered some 30(?) worshippers of Baal in the guise of fighting for God. On his return as John, his head was cut off.

You and I know of a nice man, very pure, and lowly called Jesus, who was judged unjustly and subsequently murdered for "equating" himself with God. God subsequently promised to promote him and give him a name that is above all names Phil 2: 6-9. In Rev 19, we are told he became the king of kings and lord of lords. He got his own judgement. Now the judgement can also be instantaenous while on earth, God determines these things not man. That explains why God has his own elects.


3) Mathew 8:11,

How would Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be in the Kingdom of God? By incarnation!

Mathew 12:42

How will the queen of the South that came to hear Solomon out be in the kingdom? reincarnation!!


4) 1 Cor 15: 35 

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Ressurrection means separation of the spirit from the body by death. The body is made up of water, blood and spirit. It is the spirit that gives life, so it is only the spirit that can ressurrect. After ressurection, the spirit can come back via birth to the world for a fresh assignment as directed by God.

5) I Cor15: 45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam was the first incarnation of Christ, after his death, the spirit reincarnated as the spirit of the son - as a quickening spirit



6) John 8:56.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Which day was Christ referring to? Of course you know that Abraham saw Melchisedesec and paid obesiance to him in joy. He recognized his priesthood, which is in all ways similar to christ's priesthood. Was that not an incarnation of God? Jesus says so, not me



7) Mathew 11: 13.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear let him hear.

Note that Christ knew the doctrine was not easy for them to comprehend and said ïf you will "receive it", know that John was the Elijah that was to come. Of course John did not understand that he was Elijah. It took God to reveal the truth, which is not always accepted or received.


Mark 9:13.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Again Christ, after the transfiguration comfirms that the expected Elija was already coime and the people maltreated him. Why? Because they did not understand. The question is this, will God stop or pause his program because of our ignorance? Again, reincarnation is confirmed by the creator.



9) John 12: 23-24 .

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit

Christ was speaking metaphorically that He needed to die, so he can ressurrect in a better role. That death was necessary for him to re-incarnate into the world as a King. How many Christians were there during his days? How many are do we now? The increase is astronomical. God's abracadabra na wao! Note Hebrew 1:6,, And again when he bringeth his fist begotten into the world, Note also that in his previous incarnation at the arraingment he told his disciple that he could possibly ask his Father to give him angels to free him. from Hebrew, we are told that in his re-incarnation, he will not need to ask, as all angels have been ordered to worship and obey him



10) Mathew 19: 28.

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note the word regeneration. It means in another incarnation or a reincarnation, his disciples will be glorified. Everything Christ talked about was always about the next coming. Israel refers to the whole world.

@Marlbron: Nice to see your views above, but I disagree with all of them.

@mavenbox

As I already explained to you, there was progressive revelation knowledge. The OT people could not have known about the term "trinity" but they definitely interacted with the Trinity e.g. Abraham and Sarai were visited by three "men" who turned out to be "like angels" but in their communication they delivered God's promises to him, and I ALREADY gave other examples in earlier posts above. Sorry I am quite busy now. Maybe i will come back and update this post. Cheers.

If you have done that, I would not be requesting for same again. Go through your posts yourself and bring out verses where OT prophets preached that. I just need verses please and when you are able to, I would then explain all you posted as explanations.

For quick reference, this is the link you thought you explained and answered my questions, you may go through and bring the verses out for me
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-352961.32.html

Marlbron:

Mavenbox,

Nice to hear your views, but with ALL due respects, they appear to me to be inaccurate and in conflict with the teachings of God (Jesus).

Here are my rebuttals:


1) Understand that man is made up of Spirit, blood and water. The physical building can collapse, but the inhabitant moves to another house in another plane. A snail can shed his shell for a one, huh? The spirit component of man is the only part that cannot be seen, but it is real. It gives life. Note that when Christ woke Lazarus from the dead, it was Lazurus's spirit that returned and he rose from the dead.

2) After, each existence, the spirit gives account and faces judgement by God. Whether good or bad, it can be returned to earth, through birth to live another existence, during which it will face the judgement. Take for instance, a Man X , kills two people at a point in his life. Later in life, he falls sick and dies. God's natural law does not give him the right to take a life, so at death, spirit X faces judgement. On reicarnation, he could be a pastor with a large congregation.living a very righteous life. Perhaps married with a good family, with a name- Y. One night, two armed gang attack Y and he is killed. His relation cry their heart out, but the guy is gone. THe armed robbers, unwittingly carries out God's assignment. Mr. Y's death confirms the saying you quoted from the bible: , after death, judgement , Elijah murdered some 30(?) worshippers of Baal in the guise of fighting for God. On his return as John, his head was cut off.

You and I know of a nice man, very pure, and lowly called Jesus, who was judged unjustly and subsequently murdered for "equating" himself with God. God subsequently promised to promote him and give him a name that is above all names Phil 2: 6-9. In Rev 19, we are told he became the king of kings and lord of lords. He got his own judgement. Now the judgement can also be instantaenous while on earth, God determines these things not man. That explains why God has his own elects.


3) Mathew 8:11,

How would Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be in the Kingdom of God? By incarnation!

Mathew 12:42

How will the queen of the South that came to hear Solomon out be in the kingdom? reincarnation!!


4) 1 Cor 15: 35 

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Ressurrection means separation of the spirit from the body by death. The body is made up of water, blood and spirit. It is the spirit that gives life, so it is only the spirit that can ressurrect. After ressurection, the spirit can come back via birth to the world for a fresh assignment as directed by God.

5) I Cor15: 45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam was the first incarnation of Christ, after his death, the spirit reincarnated as the spirit of the son - as a quickening spirit



6) John 8:56.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Which day was Christ referring to? Of course you know that Abraham saw Melchisedesec and paid obesiance to him in joy. He recognized his priesthood, which is in all ways similar to christ's priesthood. Was that not an incarnation of God? Jesus says so, not me



7) Mathew 11: 13.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear let him hear.

Note that Christ knew the doctrine was not easy for them to comprehend and said ïf you will "receive it", know that John was the Elijah that was to come. Of course John did not understand that he was Elijah. It took God to reveal the truth, which is not always accepted or received.


Mark 9:13.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Again Christ, after the transfiguration comfirms that the expected Elija was already coime and the people maltreated him. Why? Because they did not understand. The question is this, will God stop or pause his program because of our ignorance? Again, reincarnation is confirmed by the creator.



9) John 12: 23-24 .

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit

Christ was speaking metaphorically that He needed to die, so he can ressurrect in a better role. That death was necessary for him to re-incarnate into the world as a King. How many Christians were there during his days? How many are do we now? The increase is astronomical. God's abracadabra na wao! Note Hebrew 1:6,, And again when he bringeth his fist begotten into the world, Note also that in his previous incarnation at the arraingment he told his disciple that he could possibly ask his Father to give him angels to free him. from Hebrew, we are told that in his re-incarnation, he will not need to ask, as all angels have been ordered to worship and obey him



10) Mathew 19: 28.

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Note the word regeneration. It means in another incarnation or a reincarnation, his disciples will be glorified. Everything Christ talked about was always about the next coming. Israel refers to the whole world.

Christian Reincarnation. Interesting.

Why do christians denounce the teachings in the old testament. Were they not inspired by the same God?