Ngozi123:
If any 'proper' Igbo (I don't even know what that is ) person can understand your native tongue without too much difficulty then you speak Igbo and are thus an Igbo person who speaks a specific Igbo dialect. The main difference between a language and a dialect is whether the people from the area in discussion can understand you or not. The two are very similar so it's understandable if someone gets confused by them. It's all about mutual comprehensibility.

@Probz Is this what you were talking about?

Partly, yeah. Itsekiri people speak a Yoruboid language but no one calls them Yoruba (ditto Igala). I made this thread to see if Ika and Ukwuani people are actually Igbo or just called that because they speak a related language. There's more to ethnic affiliation with one ethnic group or another than similar languages.

I've heard on this thread that Ika and Ukwuani people also share the same traits and aspects of common culture as mainstream Igbos and that's what I was trying to find out because I honestly didn't know what their traditional culture is.

Probz:


Partly, yeah. Itsekiri people speak a Yoruboid language but no one calls them Yoruba (ditto Igala). I made this thread to see if Ika and Ukwuani people are actually Igbo or just called that because they speak a related language. There's more to ethnic affiliation with one ethnic group or another than similar languages.

I've heard on this thread that Ika and Ukwuani people also share the same traits and aspects of common culture as mainstream Igbos and that's what I was trying to find out because I honestly didn't know what their traditional culture is.

What do you mean by traits? Our culture is mostly Edo. Everything about Ika is Edoid. Language is the main thing that separate us from Edo and bound us together with Igbo. But our language structure , pluralization, anglicization and many other features are Edoid.

Cire80:
What do you mean by traits? Our culture is mostly Edo. Everything about Ika is Edoid. Language is the main thing that separate us from Edo and bound us together with Igbo. But our language structure , pluralization, anglicization and many other features are Edoid.

Traits = culture.

That’s exactly where I was going with this thread. I was asking if there’s more to the Ika/Ndokwa-Igbo relationship than similarities in language. I know Anioma’s a political creation that absolves Enuani (Aniocha/Oshimili) and Ika and Ukwuani people but I didn’t know if the latter are ethnically Igbo and see themselves as Igbo or whether they should be regarded to us Igbos as what Itsekiri and Igala people are to the Yoruba(ethnically/culturally disparate with related languages). The thing is, someone like Redbone’s telling me that the basic aspects of ‘common’ Igbo culture are shared in the Ika/Ukwuani axis and you’re saying you’re more Edo in culture so I dunno.

What’s your verdict on my original stance on the issue, that Ndokwa and Ika people are to Igbo what Igala and Itsekiri are to Yoruba but that, very recently, a number of them are assimilating into the neighbouring Igbo culture and becoming more Igbonized for political reasons (the creation of Anioma and them being regarded by lay Nigerians who don’t know the difference between Enuani-Ika/Ndokwa as Delta Igbo)?

And mind if I ask if you’re Edo-Ika or Delta Ika?

Probz:

Traits = culture.

That’s exactly where I was going with this thread. I was asking if there’s more to the Ika/Ndokwa-Igbo relationship than similarities in language. I know Anioma’s a political creation that absolves Enuani (Aniocha/Oshimili) and Ika and Ukwuani people but I didn’t know if the latter are ethnically Igbo and see themselves as Igbo or whether they should be regarded to us Igbos as what Itsekiri and Igala people are to the Yoruba(ethnically/culturally disparate with related languages). The thing is, someone like Redbone’s telling me that the basic aspects of ‘common’ Igbo culture are shared in the Ika/Ukwuani axis and you’re saying you’re more Edo in culture so I dunno.

What’s your verdict on my original stance on the issue, that Ndokwa and Ika people are to Igbo what Igala and Itsekiri are to Yoruba but that, very recently, a number of them are assimilating into the neighbouring Igbo culture and becoming more Igbonized for political reasons (the creation of Anioma and them being regarded by lay Nigerians who don’t know the difference between Enuani-Ika/Ndokwa as Delta Igbo)?

And mind if I ask if you’re Edo-Ika or Delta Ika?

RedboneSmith doesn't actually want to disagree with you but for one thing. That same thing is the reason I said I don't agree with your post completely and that's being too objective. You know this is a subjective discourse and no need being too objective, especially being a non indigenes. I saw Wulfruna post and I agree completely with her.

I'm from Delta Ika and I agree with you on the Itsekiri-Yoruba relationship but not Igala-Yoruba relationship. I think the Igala-Yoruba example would make sense some century ago but not in this present age when Ika is getting more and more Igbonized day by day especially the language. We've been able to retain our culture and every other things but in the aspect of language we're failing.

Gibto Proudly anioma proudly Igbo in Facebook and ask Osita
He is an ika man

Probz:

Traits = culture.

That’s exactly where I was going with this thread. I was asking if there’s more to the Ika/Ndokwa-Igbo relationship than similarities in language. I know Anioma’s a political creation that absolves Enuani (Aniocha/Oshimili) and Ika and Ukwuani people but I didn’t know if the latter are ethnically Igbo and see themselves as Igbo or whether they should be regarded to us Igbos as what Itsekiri and Igala people are to the Yoruba(ethnically/culturally disparate with related languages). The thing is, someone like Redbone’s telling me that the basic aspects of ‘common’ Igbo culture are shared in the Ika/Ukwuani axis and you’re saying you’re more Edo in culture so I dunno.

What’s your verdict on my original stance on the issue, that Ndokwa and Ika people are to Igbo what Igala and Itsekiri are to Yoruba but that, very recently, a number of them are assimilating into the neighbouring Igbo culture and becoming more Igbonized for political reasons (the creation of Anioma and them being regarded by lay Nigerians who don’t know the difference between Enuani-Ika/Ndokwa as Delta Igbo)?

And mind if I ask if you’re Edo-Ika or Delta Ika?

You don't seems to be asking rather concluding

Cire80:
RedboneSmith doesn't actually want to disagree with you but for one thing. That same thing is the reason I said I don't agree with your post completely and that's being too objective. You know this is a subjective discourse and no need being too objective, especially being a non indigenes. I saw Wulfruna post and I agree completely with her.

I'm from Delta Ika and I agree with you on the Itsekiri-Yoruba relationship but not Igala-Yoruba relationship. I think the Igala-Yoruba example would make sense some century ago but not in this present age when Ika is getting more and more Igbonized day by day especially the language. We've been able to retain our culture and every other things but in the aspect of language we're failing.

Yup, that’s what I’m saying. I might be coming off as overly objective at the moment but I’m definitely not claiming to have a definite answer. I stated from the off that it’s my understanding that […] and wanted to know if the Ika-Igbo and Ndokwa-Igbo situation is akin to the Itsekiri-Yoruba, Isoko-Edo relation, etc. It was actually a question but it’s obviously been misinterpreted on here.

I know there’s a lot of grey area in between. I can see a lot of Ikas gradually assimilating into Igbo culture and now bearing Ifeanyi and Nkechi as names but that’s a very recent thing. Deculturalization/acculturation does happen and is happening and current Ika territory might be 100% Igbonized in 100 years but it’s gradual and until we’re at that stage I don’t see why certain Igbos have such an issue with individual Ikas regarding themselves as either Igbo or maintaining their distinct identity (Ika). It goes both ways at the current stage we’re at and that’s the point I’ve been trying to make.

ariesbull:











You don't seems to be asking rather concluding

That one be your own wahala. I'm telling you that I'm only asking whichever way you interpret. Whatever conclusions I've derived are based purely on my limited experience and understanding on this topic, that's why I'm asking for someone who knows better to fill me in. I can't claim any authority on this kind of thing when there's people who understand and know a lot better than me.

Cire80:
unfortunately for you, my history and culture all scream Edo. The falsehood is coming from you guys. We in Anioma cherish our history and culture. The day you guys stop your concoctions, senseless postulations, propaganda and fake theorems is the you see more Aniomas being more comfortable around you guys. You guys are very desperate that's the problem.

Trade is just one of the way Anioma became Igbonized. We've treated this but the problem with you guys is that you're very selective.

And I'm not anti Igbo. I'm highly pro Ika/Anioma but that doesn't make me anti Igbo

Lies

Probz:
That one be your own wahala. I'm telling you that I'm only asking whichever way you interpret. Whatever conclusions I've derived are based purely on my limited experience and understanding on this topic, that's why I'm asking for someone who knows better to fill me in. I can't claim any authority on this kind of thing when there's people who understand and know a lot better than me.

You have a problem with comprehension
Oga go to proudly anioma proudly Igbo Facebook page and ask the ika there like osita these questions and stop disturbing us on a faceless forum

ariesbull:



You have a problem with comprehension
Oga go to proudly anioma proudly Igbo Facebook page and ask the ika there like osita these questions and stop disturbing us on a faceless forum

Who asked you to enter thread and disturb yourself? Na by force?

Stoop and leave

That I should leave my own thread?

Nothing man no go see for this Nairaland. Very soon Idoma go become Yoruba. Igala is as related to Igbo as it is to Yoruba or even more. A visit to far Northern Igbo communities will convince any doubting Thomas. Well Igala has existed as a distinct group with distinct language for time immemorial. Itsekiri is affiliated to Yoruba in both language and origin but doesn't exist as a continuum of Yoruba area. They can be likened to Bonny or Opobo Igbo speakers.

Abagworo:
Nothing man no go see for this Nairaland. Very soon Idoma go become Yoruba. Igala is as related to Igbo as it is to Yoruba or even more. A visit to far Northern Igbo communities will convince any doubting Thomas. Well Igala has existed as a distinct group with distinct language for time immemorial. Itsekiri is affiliated to Yoruba in both language and origin but doesn't exist as a continuum of Yoruba area. They can be likened to Bonny or Opobo Igbo speakers.

with this comment, I conclude that you don't know anything about Igala and Yoruba language. Comparing the relationship with Igbo sounds so ignorant. Go and make your research.

Itsekiri / Yoruba relationship can be compared with Ika/Igbo relationship. Opobo /Bonny don't have anything to do with Igbo. Just some Ijoid people getting Igbonized. If Itsekiri can stand alone, I don't see why Ika can't stand alone

Cire80:
with this comment, I conclude that you don't know anything about Igala and Yoruba language. Comparing the relationship with Igbo sounds so ignorant. Go and make your research.

Itsekiri / Yoruba relationship can be compared with Ika/Igbo relationship. Opobo /Bonny don't have anything to do with Igbo. Just some Ijoid people getting Igbonized. If Itsekiri can stand alone, I don't see why Ika can't stand alone

Ika/Igbo is same as Yoruba/Okun relationship.
Yoruba/Itsekiri is same as Igbo/Opobo.

Itsekiri is standing alone just as Opobos are standing alone.
Igala and Yoruba has no mutual inteligibility whatsoever.

That last bit's nonsense, Igboid, and you know it. I'm a full-blooded Anambrarian on both sides but my mum was born in Kogi and says that hearing and speaking the little Igala she did made it much easier for her to pick up Yoruba (in Lagos).

Igala's classed as a Yoruboid language and I've read that it has 60% mutual intelligibility with Yoruba. I'm not denying Itsekiri has greater linguistic affinity with Yoruba (that's reflected even in their names) but you sound pathetic by trying to discredit Igala as a Yoruboid language when we all know it is. What exactly are you trying to prove?

Probz:
That last bit's nonsense, Igboid, and you know it. I'm a full-blooded Anambrarian on both sides but my mum was born in Kogi and says that hearing and speaking the little Igala she did made it much easier for her to pick up Yoruba (in Lagos).

Igala's classed as a Yoruboid language and I've read that it has 60% mutual intelligibility with Yoruba. I'm not denying Itsekiri has greater linguistic affinity with Yoruba (that's reflected even in their names) but you sound pathetic by trying to discredit Igala as a Yoruboid language when we all know it is. What exactly are you trying to prove?

Are you alright at all? Grab the nearest thermometer and check your temperature ASAP.

Igala is not mutually intelligible with Yoruba.
I once met an Abi woman from Igbo-Ekureku in Cross river state, her language is supposed to be Legbo, an Ekoid language, but she told me that it's easy for a Legbo speaker to understand Igbo. She had only stayed a year in Aba, but was speaking Igbo fluently.

You have no point.

Igboid:


Are you alright at all? Grab the nearest thermometer and check your training your temperature ASAP.

Igala is not mutually intelligible with Yoruba.
I once met an Abi woman from Igbo-Ekureku in Cross river state, her language is supposed to be Legbo, an Ekoid language, but she told me that it's easy for a Legbo speaker to understand Igbo. She had only stayed a year in Aba, but was speaking Igbo fluently.

You have no point.

The difference is Legbo isn't classed as an Igboid language whereas Igala is a Yoruboid language. Deny it all you want if that's what makes you feel better but the facts are there. Igala and Itsekiri are Yoruboid.

I know a lot of people like to think of Igala as a bridging point between Igbo and Yoruba but it sounds more Yoruba than Igbo (minus the extreme southern Igala / Anambra/Enugu fringes) and is rightly classed as a Yoruboid language. Some IPOB who's likely never been affiliated with the SW or Igala can't deny that just because you have an Igbo agenda to push.

What’s your verdict on my original stance on the issue, that Ndokwa and Ika people are to Igbo what Igala and Itsekiri are to Yoruba but that, very recently, a number of them are assimilating into the neighbouring Igbo culture and becoming more Igbonized for political reasons (the creation of Anioma and them being regarded by lay Nigerians who don’t know the difference between Enuani-Ika/Ndokwa as Delta Igbo)?


Now this is trash!
Aboh kingdom in present Ndokwa area was one of the first places the colonial masters visited in Igboland. And they recorded in detail the language, culture, traditions and religious beliefs of Aboh people.
And they were unmistakably Igbo in every aspect with no iota of Edo.
Ndokwa had always been Igbo speaking since the dawn of time, they were at no time Igbonized.

You can read up on Ezzeh Obi Ossai of Aboh, his daughter Adaeze, and his son Chukwuma colonial recorded stories here:http://archive.org/stream/narrativeofexped01alle/narrativeofexped01alle_djvu.txt

Probz:


The difference is Legbo isn't classed as an Igboid language whereas Igala is a Yoruboid language. Deny it all you want if that's what makes you feel better but the facts are there. Igala and Itsekiri are Yoruboid.

Could care less whether Igala is classified Yoruboid or Islamoid/Hausa-Fulanoid.
The point I made is that Igala and Yoruba are not mutually intelligible and that pre knowledge of Igala helping someone learn Yoruba faster is as inconsequential as pre knowledge of Legbo helping the Legbo woman I met learning Igbo faster.

Igboid:


Could care less whether Igala is classified Yoruboid or Islamoid/Hausa-Fulanoid.
The point I made is that Igala and Yoruba are not mutually intelligible and that pre knowledge of Igala helping someone learn Yoruba faster is as inconsequential as pre knowledge of Legbo helping the Legbo woman I met learning Igbo faster.

It's not really since one has linguistic affinity with the parent language and the other doesn't. Where's your "proof" that supports Igala not being intelligible with Yoruba?

Probz:


It's not really since one has linguistic affinity with the parent language and the other doesn't. Where's your "proof" that supports Igala not being intelligible with Yoruba?

Where is your proof that they are intelligible other than parading the Yoruboid ish around?

I have Igala colleagues and they don't understand Yoruba.

Igboid:


Where is your proof that they are intelligible other than parading the Yoruboid ish around?

I have Igala colleagues and they don't understand Yoruba.

Couldn't care less about your colleagues. Oid languages aren't classed that way for nothing whether you accept that or not.

Most Igbos can't understand the Izzi-Ezza-Mgbo-Ikwo dialect cluster of Ebonyi or the Wawa of rural Enugu state but that doesn't mean they're not dialects of Igbo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ctUQlfw8Cw

Listen to that and go ahead and try and ignore the obvious Yoruba accent and intonation.

"Igala and Yoruba have important historical and cultural relationships. The languages of the two ethnic groups bear such a close resemblance that researchers such as Forde (1951) and Westermann and Bryan (1952) regarded Igala as a dialect of Yoruba."

"Other comparative works aimed at investigating the language status of Igala (directly and indirectly) are Omamor (1967) and Williamson (1973). In fact, Williamson is the originator of the label ‘Yoruboid’ for the group of languages comprising Yoruba, Isekiri and Igala for the purpose of distinguishing “between Yoruba as a language on the one hand, and Yoruba, Isekiri and Igala as a genetic group on the other”. (Akinkugbe 1976:1) Akinkugbe refers to the proto- language of the group as Proto-Yoruboid in 1976 and Proto-Yoruba-Isekiri-Igala (PYIG) in 1978"

There might be some Nupe, Idoma and definitely some Igbo fused in but overall it's an indisputably Yoruboid language and sounds more Yoruba than anything else.

Probz:


Couldn't care less about your colleagues. Oid languages aren't classed that way for nothing whether you accept that or not.

Most Igbos can't understand the Izzi-Ezza-Mgbo-Ikwo dialect cluster of Ebonyi or the Wawa of rural Enugu state but that doesn't mean they're not dialects of Igbo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ctUQlfw8Cw

Listen to that and go ahead and try and ignore the obvious Yoruba accent and intonation.

"Igala and Yoruba have important historical and cultural relationships. The languages of the two ethnic groups bear such a close resemblance that researchers such as Forde (1951) and Westermann and Bryan (1952) regarded Igala as a dialect of Yoruba."

"Other comparative works aimed at investigating the language status of Igala (directly and indirectly) are Omamor (1967) and Williamson (1973). In fact, Williamson is the originator of the label ‘Yoruboid’ for the group of languages comprising Yoruba, Isekiri and Igala for the purpose of distinguishing “between Yoruba as a language on the one hand, and Yoruba, Isekiri and Igala as a genetic group on the other”. (Akinkugbe 1976:1) Akinkugbe refers to the proto- language of the group as Proto-Yoruboid in 1976 and Proto-Yoruba-Isekiri-Igala (PYIG) in 1978"

There might be some Nupe, Idoma and definitely some Igbo fused in but overall it's an indisputably Yoruboid language and sounds more Yoruba than anything else.

Ezza-Izzi-Ngbo-Ikwo people understand central Igbo, I am currently sitting with an Ezza friend from Onueke in Ezza North, and best believe that I understand most of things he say on phone when interacting with relatives back home.
Your example is therefore flawed. The point I raised was not if Yorubas understand Igala, it's if Igalas understand Yoruba.
Slice and dice it anyway you like, quote whoever you want to, saying that Igala is Yoruboid is not same thing as Igala being mutually intelligible with Yoruba.

Degema is an Edoid language, yet a Bini person and a Degema person can't understand each other on any level at all. The classification is merely academic and not functional.

People don't seem to know the sifference between Igbo and Igboid or Yoruba and Yoruboid. Anotehr term for Igboid can be Igbo-like but it's not the same thing as Igbo and that is why areas like Ekpeye where the mutual inyelligibility with mainstream Igbo is very low is described as Igboid. Same goes to areas in Anambra and Imo.

Now when you talk of Igbo, i's a bit more tricky and involves so many variables and these variables can be exclusive to one another. Which means that there are no defined metrics used to know who is Igbo, Yoruba or Hausa. If i as an Enugu man say i am not Igbo then i am not Igbo. But that does not mean that i will not be classed academically as Igbo likewise someone from Ika, Ukwuani or Ikwerre except the intellegentsia see a need to make any of the Igbo sub-units are a different group academically.

Afam4eva:
People don't seem to know the sifference between Igbo and Igboid or Yoruba and Yoruboid. Anotehr term for Igboid can be Igbo-like but it's not the same thing as Igbo and that is why areas like Ekpeye where the mutual inyelligibility with mainstream Igbo is very low is described as Igboid. Same goes to areas in Anambra and Imo.

Now when you talk of Igbo, i's a bit more tricky and involves so many variables and these variables can be exclusive to one another. Which means that there are no defined metrics used to know who is Igbo, Yoruba or Hausa. If i as an Enugu man say i am not Igbo then i am not Igbo. But that does not mean that i will not be classed academically as Igbo likewise someone from Ika, Ukwuani or Ikwerre except the intellegentsia see a need to make any of the Igbo sub-units are a different group academically.

Igboid in real sense have only two languages.
1, Igbo
2, Ekpeye.

But these days, if you say you are not Igbo, you can politically be grouped as one of the Igboids.
The difference between Igbo and Igboid, other than Ekpeye, is politics.
If tomorrow, Idemili wishes to no longer be part of Igbo, we can elevate Idemili to one of the languages under Igboid.

By the way, I had been wondering what happened to Ezotik and Bokohalal, two Edo people who were obsessed with Western Igbos and were always on Western Igbo threads preaching Edo messages.

It would appear they had morphed into "Anioma persons" in New monikers, where they now move around all western Igbo threads claiming to be spokespersons for Anioma people.

Ikegwuru.

Igboid:


Igboid in real sense have only two languages.
1, Igbo
2, Ekpeye.

But these days, if you say you are not Igbo, you can politically be grouped as one of the Igboids.
The difference between Igbo and Igboid, other than Ekpeye, is politics.
If tomorrow, Idemili wishes to no longer be part of Igbo, we can elevate Idemili to one of the languages under Igboid.

Simple. Only Ekpeye is distinct in same Igbo family and that's why Igbos cannot understand it beyond few phrases. The rest of Igbo family are virtually same with variations.

Igboid:


Igboid in real sense have only two languages.
1, Igbo
2, Ekpeye.

But these days, if you say you are not Igbo, you can politically be grouped as one of the Igboids.
The difference between Igbo and Igboid, other than Ekpeye, is politics.
If tomorrow, Idemili wishes to no longer be part of Igbo, we can elevate Idemili to one of the languages under Igboid.

Abagworo:


Simple. Only Ekpeye is distinct in same Igbo family and that's why Igbos cannot understand it beyond few phrases. The rest of Igbo family are virtually same with variations.

Why would you even say that? Can you in all honesty tell me why Ekpeye is not Igbo but Ika is? I think you're going to say mutual intelligibility. What about Ezza and Izzi? And don't you think intelligibility of Igbo dialects came about because there's now something we refer to as central Igbo which almost everyone has an idea of? I woder how pre 19th century Igboland was like.

Afam4eva:




Why would you even say that? Can you in all honesty tell me why Ekpeye is not Igbo but Ika is? I think you're going to say mutual intelligibility. What about Ezza and Izzi? And don't you think intelligibility of Igbo dialects came about because there's now something we refer to as central Igbo which almost everyone has an idea of? I woder how pre 19th century Igboland was like.

Lexical similarity between Ekpeye and every other Igbo dialect is very low.

Izzi is still 81% similar to Owerri and 80% similar to Orlu. Ekpeye is only 62% similar to Owerri, and 68% similar to Orlu.

Ika is 77% similar to Owerri and 78% similar to Orlu.

These calculations were made by the linguist Kay Williamson (working with her student Chinyere Aniche.)

There is no dialect that has more than 60-something percent lexical similarity with Ekpeye. But the other dialects/languages in the Igbo continuum have over 70% lexical similarity with each other.

In linguistic circles, languages that have over 70% lexical similarity (some authors prefer to use 80% as benchmark) are more likely to be regarded as dialects of each other, and those with lexical similarity lower than 70% are likely to be different languages (even though they may still be related).

Using this method, most linguists regard Ekpeye as a different language though still within the Igboid family. I must say that, having seen an Ekpeye dictionary, the language is certainly far far far less intelligible to Igbo speakers than Izzi and Ezza.

RedboneSmith:


Lexical similarity between Ekpeye and every other Igbo dialect is very low.

Izzi is still 81% similar to Owerri and 80% similar to Orlu. Ekpeye is only 62% similar to Owerri, and 68% similar to Orlu.

Ika is 77% similar to Owerri and 78% similar to Orlu.

These calculations were made by the linguist Kay Williamson (working with her student Chinyere Aniche.)

There is no dialect that has more than 60-something percent lexical similarity with Ekpeye. But the other dialects/languages in the Igbo continuum have over 70% lexical similarity with each other.

In linguistic circles, languages that have over 70% lexical similarity (some authors prefer to use 80% as benchmark) are more likely to be regarded as dialects of each other, and those with lexical similarity lower than 70% are likely to be different languages (even though they may still be related).

Using this method, most linguists regard Ekpeye as a different language though still within the Igboid family. I must say that, having seen an Ekpeye dictionary, the language is certainly far far far less intelligible to Igbo speakers than Izzi and Ezza.

I don't believe in the Ika 77% to Igbo because it's just an estimation. How exactly is anyone able to arrive at an accurate percentage? Just like every other academic research work, the findings are never accurate. Another researcher will come out with a different result tomorrow and which one will you take as accurate? But going by your analogy, so if we decide to use the 80% benchmark, Ika is a language of it's own? Don't forget Ika has two words for most words and they are mostly Edoid and Igboid. The Edoid words are more ancient and fastly going extinct. But that doesn't mean they're no longer Ika words.