Splinz:


Mature and old harvest... immature harvest ni?

---

They claimed that they don't worship Mary but only honor her. And I asked: “Can we also say that those traditionalists bowing down to their own statues are also honoring their god and not worshiping them”? Now, if these people are called “idol worshipers”, then the Catholics are chiefs among them!

You see, Jael is actually the “most blessed of women (Judges 5:24)”, while Mary is “blessed among women”. Here's how the Bible describes her: “Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent”.

According to this passage, Jael is even blessed more than Mary. But then, Catholics don't worship or honor her. Do you by any chance know the reason for this selective honor?

So, the blessedness of Jael dismisses any thought of giving special status to Mary! She was simply one of those blessed among women!

Baba forget those Idol worshippers
I have even been wasting my time arguing with them...

italo:


Long story short. No Bishop or Pope told you he worships Mary. You're just concocting that from your little brain.

Why are you hell bent on forcing a deity on us?

Why dont you let us tell you the God we worship?

U say I get small Brain, my own better.

You are a brainwashed Sycophant and an Idol worshipper.

I keep giving you logical explanations, u keep dodging and blabbing up and down.

You keep making incoherent points and arguments.
So all those prayers (hail holy queen, memorare, holy rosary etc) were created by me, it's not in your yeye doctrine, nd no be your yeye Church leaders/founders write the doctrine

All those statues and sculptures of Mary was bought by me, no be your Reverend Fathers and Bishops dey buy them, put for a their various parishes.

You can only keep deluding yourself.
It would be stupid for me to keep arguing with you.
I'm done replying you... Go fuvk yourself

Proverbs 26:4
New Living Translation
Don't answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are
I don't want to become a fool. So bye bye

Mcowubaba:

Baba forget those Idol worshippers

High ranking idolaters at that. In fact, traditional worshipers are learners.

Mcowubaba:

I have even been wasting my time arguing with them...

Exactly. The more reason why I've been ignoring their mentions.

shadeyinka:

You win on this point...technically

However, the early christians were NOT Roman
Therefore, they cannot be Roman Catholic.

If they were Roman, the Epistles would have been written in Latin and Not Greek.

There I rest my case.

Since you have began reading please continue your study. you don't have to be 'roman' to be catholic, there are greek catholics, syrian catholic....
the term 'roman' catholic was coined by protestants.

Ubenedictus:
Since you have began reading please continue your study. you don't have to be 'roman' to be catholic, there are greek catholics, syrian catholic....
the term 'roman' catholic was coined by protestants.

I hear you.

Interestingly, Protestants don't call themselves that: the term Protestant was coined by the so called Roman Catholics

Good night Bro!

italo:


Stupidity.

One does not have to be Roman to be Catholic.

Read more.

Immaturity in display: can't you discuss intelligently without being offensive?

Mcowubaba:


U say I get small Brain, my own better.

You are a brainwashed Sycophant and an Idol worshipper.

I keep giving you logical explanations, u keep dodging and blabbing up and down.

You keep making incoherent points and arguments.
So all those prayers (hail holy queen, memorare, holy rosary etc) were created by me, it's not in your yeye doctrine, nd no be your yeye Church leaders/founders write the doctrine

All those statues and sculptures of Mary was bought by me, no be your Reverend Fathers and Bishops dey buy them, put for a their various parishes.

You can only keep deluding yourself.
It would be stupid for me to keep arguing with you.
I'm done replying you... Go fuvk yourself

Proverbs 26:4
New Living Translation
Don't answer the foolish arguments of fools, or you will become as foolish as they are
I don't want to become a fool. So bye bye

Yes we pray the Rosary which is JESUS CENTRED...

Incase you don't know hail Mary, was not invented by the Catholic Church.. it is biblical, the Angel Gabriel's greeting to her...
Blessed are you among women was from Elizabeth's greeting when she was filled with the Holy Spirit to Mary Also..

Luke 1:28And the ANGEL being come in, said unto her:
Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee:
blessed art thou among women.

Luke 1:41b and ELIZABETH was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT 42 AND SHE exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

SO BY YOUR THINKING.. THE ANGEL AND THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH ELIZABETH WHERE WORSHIPPING MARY...

the pray for us part is simply asking for her intercession... Which is definitely not wrong.. because we are too intercede which means "PRAY FOR" each other...

Jesus tells us
mat 5: 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Paul said
1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers,

2 cor 1:11 You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us in answer to many prayers.

Concerning the Rosary and all those prayers you mention... All points to Jesus..
The Rosary mysteries are about Jesus's life.. not to forget the Glory be... the Our Father...
the Hail holy queen ends with show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb JESUS... amongst others...

KNOWING REV FR OR BROTHER OR SISTER DOESN'T MEAN YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CATHOLIC FAITH... I REPEAT.. SHOW ME THE PROOF FROM THE CATECHISM....

Splinz:


Mature and old harvest... immature harvest ni?

---

They claimed that they don't worship Mary but only honor her. And I asked: “Can we also say that those traditionalists bowing down to their own statues are also honoring their god and not worshiping them”? Now, if these people are called “idol worshipers”, then the Catholics are chiefs among them!

You see, Jael is actually the “most blessed of women (Judges 5:24)”, while Mary is “blessed among women”. Here's how the Bible describes her: “Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent”.

According to this passage, Jael is even blessed more than Mary. But then, Catholics don't worship or honor her. Do you by any chance know the reason for this selective honor?

So, the blessedness of Jael dismisses any thought of giving special status to Mary! She was simply one of those blessed among women!

point 1 like italo pointed out... Mary was not in the tent.. Deborah called Jael greatest of the tent women... For killing (crushing this skull of Sisera) with a tent peg.

point 2.. DEBORAH called Jael blessed among women... while THE ANGEL GABRIEL and THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH ELIZABETH called Mary blessed among women.. (Luke 1:28, 1:42)
I believe the Angel and Holy Spirit have more power to proclaim than Deborah

point 3.. Jael didn't give birth to Jesus Christ.. the Saviour of the World.. Mary did.. So by virtue of what each did.. Mary is greater

point 4.. Mary Is according to Elizabeth under the Holy Spirit's influence called "MOTHER OF MY LORD" (Luke 1:43) and she calls herself HANDMAIDEN OF THE LORD (Luke 1:38)
Jael is but a tent woman albeit a great one

point 5: Jael is in the OLD TESTAMENT all of which is fulfilled or perfected in the NEW TESTAMENT of which Mary forms a good part...

Point 6 the prophecy of Gen 3:15 finds it perfect fulfillment in Mary.. As her seed.. JESUS CHRIST crushes the (skull)head of the Devil... using his cross..
which is only partly fulfilled by Jael using tent pegs to crush the Head of sisera...

easymancfc, if you read your Bible, you would know that praying to Mary is unbiblical.

First of all, Mary doesn't even know that you're praying to her, neither is she in Heaven right now, nor does she intercede for anybody!

shadeyinka:


I hear you.

Interestingly, Protestants don't call themselves that: the term Protestant was coined by the so called Roman Catholics

Good night Bro!

Actually they do.. Original protestants do.. like the Lutherans, some Presbyterians and Methodists

DoctorAlien:
easymancfc, if you read your Bible, you would know that praying to Mary is unbiblical.

First of all, Mary doesn't even know that you're praying to her, neither is she in Heaven right now, nor does she intercede for anybody!

Let's live the part about her hearing us first...

DO YOU REALIZE THAT YOU JUST SAID MARY IS NOT IN HEAVEN?? BY WHAT AUTHORITY DO YOU SAY THAT.. DOES THE BIBLE TELL YOU THAT??

I KNOW YOU HATE CATHOLICS BUT DON'T SAY WHAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE BLASPHEMY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SAY WHO IS IN HEAVEN OR HELL MUCH LESS PRONOUNCE JUDGEMENT AGAINST JESUS'S MOTHER...

easymancfc:


Let's live the part about her hearing us first...

DO YOU REALIZE THAT YOU JUST SAID MARY IS NOT IN HEAVEN?? BY WHAT AUTHORITY DO YOU SAY THAT.. DOES THE BIBLE TELL YOU THAT??

I KNOW YOU HATE CATHOLICS BUT DON'T SAY WHAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE BLASPHEMY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SAY WHO IS IN HEAVEN OR HELL MUCH LESS PRONOUNCE JUDGEMENT AGAINST JESUS'S MOTHER...

1 Thess. 4:16-17 tells us that Mary will resurrect to meet the LORD when He comes back to this earth. So, she is not in Heaven now, and you're deceiving yourself praying to whom you don't know.

DoctorAlien:


1 Thess. 4:16-17 tells us that Mary will resurrect to meet the LORD when He comes back to this earth. So, she is not in Heaven now, and you're deceiving yourself praying to whom you don't know.

I thess 4:16.. doesn't tell you that... it only says bodies will be resurrected.. this soul of the dead in Christ are in heaven... So 1 thess 4:16 doesn't disprove anything...

Hebrews 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a CLOUD of WITNESSES, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

THESE ARE ALL THE OLD TESTAMENT HEROES IN HEAVEN MENTIONED IN HEBREWS 11.. they are not in the grave

Hebrews 12: 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the ASSEMBLY OF THE FIRST-BORN who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the SPIRITS of JUST MEN made perfect,

THIS NEW JERUSALEM IS NOT THE GRAVE...

Mat 17: 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Eli′jah, talking with him.

Mountain of transfiguration... AND MOSES A DEAD MAN NOT IN THE GRAVE WAITING FOR THE 2ND COMING

I can go on

easymancfc:


I thess 4:16.. doesn't tell you that... it only says bodies will be resurrected.. this soul of the dead in Christ are in heaven... So 1 thess 4:16 doesn't disprove anything...

1 Thess. 4:16 says the "dead in Christ" will rise when Christ returns, not bodies. How can a soul be in Heaven and bodies resurrect when Christ comes back? The soul is not separate from the body.

Paul in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 describes without any limitation the way and means by which we go to be with the Lord. Don’t overlook the word “so” in his statement. It means “in this way.” By that little word Paul precluded every other way of being with the Lord. When he described the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the saints as being the manner and means of being with the Lord, he automatically excluded all other means of doing it. Then he admonishes us to “comfort one another with these words.”

Jesus said, “Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29).

easymancfc, how can the righteous be in Heaven now when Jesus says that those who have done good would resurrect "from their graves" to eternal life?

DoctorAlien:
Paul in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 describes without any limitation the way and means by which we go to be with the Lord. Don’t overlook the word “so” in his statement. It means “in this way.” By that little word Paul precluded every other way of being with the Lord. When he described the coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the saints as being the manner and means of being with the Lord, he automatically excluded all other means of doing it. Then he admonishes us to “comfort one another with these words.”

Resurrection of the body like I have said to you.. doesn't preclude or exclude anything... if you still insist.. then explain...
Hebrews 12:23, Hebrews 12:1 and this
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”

easymancfc:


Resurrection of the body like I have said to you.. doesn't preclude or exclude anything... if you still insist.. then explain...
Hebrews 12:23, Hebrews 12:1 and this
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?”

Gen. 2:7 KJV defines "soul" as a combination of body and breath of life. Therefore SOUL = BODY + BREATH.

Just like GOD said the blood of Abel was crying unto Him out of the ground, the things which these men suffered demand justice.

DoctorAlien:
Jesus said, “Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29).

easymancfc, how can the righteous be in Heaven now when Jesus says that those who have done good would resurrect "from their graves" to eternal life?

Reason 1: this was before the resurrection... so technically.. heaven was not open yet.. secondly you assume that the body and soul need to be together before it can be resurrected....

when a person dies we know the soul is not in the body anymore..

Like I pointed out in Mathew 17..MOSES'S SOUL WAS NOT IN HIS BODY IN THE GRAVE... HIS SOUL WAS WITH JESUS ON THE MOUNTAIN...

reason 2: Jesus went to the SOULS IN PRISON TAKE NOTE OF THE SOULS to preach to them when he descended according to your logic of 1 Thessalonians those souls should be with their bodies in the grave .. and am sure he didn't live them there...

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,

DoctorAlien:


Gen. 2:7 KJV defines "soul" as a combination of body and breath of life. Therefore SOUL = BODY + BREATH.

Just like GOD said the blood of Abel was crying unto Him out of the ground, the things which these men suffered demand justice.

that doesn't work...
reason 1: Hebrews 12:23 says spirit of just men also...

Hebrews 12:1 talks about old testament heroes as cloud of witnesses Not waiting in the grave .. Abraham, Abel, Noah, Rahab, Gideon, etc as Mentioned in Hebrews 11... whose resurrection the Bible doesn't tell us about

Reason 2: The Bible talks about people on earth and People in heaven interceding for those on earth directly so following your analogy.. that can't be possible...
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four ELDER'S fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the PRAYERS of the SAINTS;

THE ELDERS ARE DEFINITELY HUMANS IN HEAVEN.. BODY OR SOUL DOESN'T MATTER.. POINT IS.. THEY ARE NOT ON THE GRAVE WAITING... AND THEY ARE OFFERING THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS WHO AM SURE YOU WOULD SAY ARE PEOPLE ON EARTH

easymancfc:


Reason 1: this was before the resurrection... so technically.. heaven was not open yet.. secondly you assume that the body and soul need to be together before it can be resurrected....

Jesus said that the hour was coming when those in the grave will hear His voice, and will come out, some to resurrection of life, and some to resurrection of damnation. How does Jesus saying this before resurrection have any impact on the meaning of His statement?

when a person dies we know the soul is not in the body anymore..

Where does the Bible teach this?

The thread has finally been derailed

Jesus assured the people of His day, “...thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). Again, He said, “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). There is no equivocation here. In simple, direct language Jesus declared that no one would be rewarded until the resurrection takes place at His second coming. This means that none of the righteous dead have gone to heaven so far. All are waiting in their graves for the judgment and the end of the world. Almost the last words of the Bible confirm this fact. “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his works shall be” (Revelation 22:12).

So Mary is not in Heaven now, because the resurrection of the just has not happened.

DoctorAlien:
Jesus said that the hour was coming when those in the grave will hear His voice, and will come out, some to resurrection of life, and some to resurrection of damnation. How does Jesus saying this before resurrection have any impact on the meaning of His statement?

Where does the Bible teach this?

To your first question.. Jesus is the one who gives eternal life or at least he is the way to eternal life... see John 14... and he said to his disciples that he is going to prepare a place for them... see see John 14:2-3... so when he ascended that's when heaven was made open and like 1 Peter 3 says he went to preach to the souls in prison...

don't forget the good thief.. Jesus said... today you will be with me in paradise ... or Stephen who saw heaven opened at his death...

Ubenedictus:
The thread has finally been derailed

Na them derail am.. jumping from one argument to the other when they discover it doesn't hold water

DoctorAlien:
Jesus assured the people of His day, “...thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). Again, He said, “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matthew 16:27). There is no equivocation here. In simple, direct language Jesus declared that no one would be rewarded until the resurrection takes place at His second coming. This means that none of the righteous dead have gone to heaven so far. All are waiting in their graves for the judgment and the end of the world. Almost the last words of the Bible confirm this fact. “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his works shall be” (Revelation 22:12).

So Mary is not in Heaven now, because the resurrection of the just has not happened.

Rev 5:8 directly contradicts your interpretation of this verse because it's says 24 elders are already in heaven offering to God the prayers of the saints

Hebrews 21:1 and 23 Also contradict your interpretation because the spirits of just men made perfect and God's first born are already there

easymancfc:


To your first question.. Jesus is the one who gives eternal life or at least he is the way to eternal life... see John 14... and he said to his disciples that he is going to prepare a place for them... see see John 14:2-3... so when he ascended that's when heaven was made open and like 1 Peter 3 says he went to preach to the souls in prison...

don't forget the good thief.. Jesus said... today you will be with me in paradise ... or Stephen who saw heaven opened at his death...

Why didn't you quote the whole of John 14:3? Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them. He then told them "I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO ME, THAT WHERE I AM, THERE YE MAY BE ALSO." In the light of this, how can anyone claim that Mary is in Heaven? Has Jesus come again?

When Jesus resurrected, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father(John 20:17). How can this statement be true if Jesus went to Heaven with the thief?

DoctorAlien:


Why didn't you quote the whole of John 14:3? Jesus told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them. He then told them "I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO ME, THAT WHERE I AM, THERE YE MAY BE ALSO." In the light of this, how can anyone claim that Mary is in Heaven? Has Jesus come again?

When Jesus resurrected, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father(John 20:17). How can this statement be true if Jesus went to Heaven with the thief?

I don't deny the General resurrection at the end.. but I reconcile all the passages together.. at the end of time our souls will be united with our bodies when Jesus comes... that I believe... but to believe in the Soul sleep when we clearly session activities of Souls of dead people like those mentioned in Hebrews 12:1, or spirits in heaven In Hebrews 12:23 or the 24.elders in rev 5:3 or Moses in math 17 or the martyrs in Rev 6 or the great multitude of rev 7:9

easymancfc:


I don't deny the General resurrection at the end.. but I reconcile all the passages together.. at the end of time our souls will be united with our bodies when Jesus comes... that I believe... but to believe in the Soul sleep when we clearly session activities of Souls of dead people like those mentioned in Hebrews 12:1, or spirits in heaven In Hebrews 12:23 or the 24.elders in rev 5:3 or Moses in math 17 or the martyrs in Rev 6 or the great multitude of rev 7:9

You must find another interpretation for the verses in Revelation, because Jesus said He would COME AGAIN to take His people to Himself, so that they will be where He is, and not that His people go to Him, maybe at death. You have not shown me where the Bible says that a soul leaves the body when a person dies.

DoctorAlien:


You must find another interpretation for the verses in Revelation, because Jesus said He would COME AGAIN to take His people to Himself, so that they will be where He is, and not that His people go to Him, maybe at death. You have not shown me where the Bible says that souls leave the body when a person dies.

So the 24 elders are not his people, the old testament heroes are not his people? the spirits of just men made perfect are not his people?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 THEN THEY WERE EACH GIVEN a WHITE ROBE and told to REST a LITTLE LONGER, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, WHO WERE TO BE KILLED as they themselves had been.

It's pretty clear... their souls are in heaven under God's altar, after their bodies were slain.. and from the capitalized it is also Clear that while their soul was in heaven and they were given white robes.. their counterparts on earth were preparing for their own death.. proving your interpretation wrong also

as to where Soul lives the body ... it is evident in all the passages where peoples souls are seen apart from their bodies.. rev 6 above, Hebrews 12:23, mat 17 .. Paul gave a hint to that Also In

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
"Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say... and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord."

He clearly says we can be 'absent from the body'. Therefore, we are not an inseperable body+breath= 'living soul' which has no existence after life ceases.

Philippians 1:21-24
"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I don't know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."
If Paul knew he would not be conscious again until the second coming, why would he desire to 'depart and be with Christ'? An early death will not hasten the second comming, and how could unconsciousness be 'better' than remaining and completing his work?

op,...sims u av so much hate 2wards catholic church..cox dix nt ur 4st thread abt d church...

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Eccl. 9:10

easymancfc, there is no knowledge in the grave, GOD tells us. Paul himself tells us the manner in which we will be with the Lord(see 1 Thess. 4:16-17). How can that statement "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" make sense if Paul has been with the Lord before His second coming? The problem lies in the version from which you quoted, which twisted what Paul was really saying in Phil. 1:21-24.

Moreover, Christ said that He will come again to take His people to Himself, so that they can be where He is. Christ does not say that His people will go to Him at death. Paul agrees too in 1 Thess. 4:16-17.