So, why was Grace banned from shopping in several EU countries@donzman? Are you really in favor of Mugabe's continued desire to stay in power, even when he is in his 80's? Let him give the younger generation a chance.

Ndipe:

So, why was Grace banned from shopping in several EU countries@donzman? Are you really in favor of Mugabe's continued desire to stay in power, even when he is in his 80's? Let him give the younger generation a chance.

NO!. . .I do not support Mugabe's dictatorship but the hypocrisy in criticizing events in Zimbabwe is wrong. Nonetheless, be rest assured that the West will ostracize any leader after Mugabe who is willing to continue with the land reforms. That is the truth of the matter!

so because the white people cheated the blacks then Mugabe should do the same so we know that blacks have the power to oppress blacks now?

fantastic reasoning Donzman

This isn't about blacks oppressing blacks, this is about blacks taking back land that was forcefully taken away from them. Thanks for your faulty logic though.

As for the rest of your post, I won't take you serious until you acknowledge that all of those positives ONLY accrued to the white land owners who practiced apartheid lest I forget. You list all those positives and fail to show who exactly they went to. There is no doubt that white Zimbabweans have been enjoying at the expense of the blacks, no need to dig it up again.

Please, read up on Latin American revolutions. What is happening in Zimbabwe isn't any different!!

Donzman don't avoid the issue: was it not the same salary that BLACK civil servants were collecting, which was able to meet their needs and more that can't pay a months rent now? that all of them have to go live in shanties which have now been torn down by govt?

were the White men eating all the cheap food and selling it at 1,700% inflation as is occuring today? was it not cheap and plentiful for all?

was any Zimbabwean dependent on food aid before all this crap happened?

the students in the universities - they were all white too eh?

the people who had jobs and could sustain their families - all white too?

even SA that you're dissing - isnt that where 1million Zimbabweans have run to because of Mugabe to find a better life, where 500,000 jobs are being created annually? or wait the 500,000 are all whites too.

Continue which land reforms? the whites have been chased out, they have left in droves. what land reform is left? he has cornered the best land for his cronies, most of the land lies barren in waste now. what reform is that?

this is not a revolution - a leader doesnt wait in power for 27 years to start a revolution. SA apartheid ended in the mid nineties, why is the 'land reform' only occuring now?

there is no comparison with Latin America, this is a greedy sit tight leader's latest ploy to remain in power, even if he destroys the country while at it

Ok Debosky. . .I see you're the type that will be a tenant as long as the man occupying your home feeds you once in a while. No problem with that!

Kudos to the men who understand that land reforms isn't only for current Zimbabweans but those that are yet to be born. They can wake up and say that is mine, they do not need to look in the distance and see their land being used to produce wheat for EXPORT!

even SA that you're dissing - isnt that where 1million Zimbabweans have run to because of Mugabe to find a better life, where 500,000 jobs are being created annually? or wait the 500,000 are all whites too.

It's like people running to Lagos and leaving their villages. They believe there is something better there when the truth is that they'll end up living in shanties. 50% of South Africans live in poverty of which 99% of those are black, that is what I call an equitable society and one which I'll like to live in!. . .What a pity!

this is not a revolution - a leader doesnt wait in power for 27 years to start a revolution. SA apartheid ended in the mid nineties, why is the 'land reform' only occuring now?

there is no comparison with Latin America, this is a greedy sit tight leader's latest ploy to remain in power, even if he destroys the country while at it

Don't be dumb, he didn't wait for 27 years to start the reforms. Jesus, read up on the whole issue before you start telling me about what you say on BBC. Did you forget the British "willing seller, willing buyer" program?

This is the same situation with Latin America, if the leader isn't called greedy, he is called communist, he is called a dictator, he is called an oppressor, whatever it is.

Where were your kind when the Duvaliers were ruining Haiti with American backing?. . .Probably crouched down somewhere picking up peanuts being dropped.

I do not expect everybody to hold my view, some people are comfortable being second class in their own lands, other are not. Some people are followers, others are made leaders, forcing a born follower to act like a leader is like squeezing stone out of water. Why will Africa progress when we have people who never learn? People who do not understand the way the global system works but feel a need to comment. Do you think you're more intelligent than Mugabe?

It's ok. . .Mugabe should have left the land with the whites, what is justice if people have to suffer to get it?. . .The Israelites should have gone back to Egypt instead of wasting generations in the desert!. . .Why did MLK die for the civil rights movement? Quest for justice is supposed to be an easy path, afterall those fighting to maintain the injustice should understand your plight and give in.

Why should the West be opposed to land reforms? They understand there is an injustice that need to be corrected. Lest I forget, if another leader tried the land reforms another way, the West would have backed it. Yes indeed, like they backed Jacob Arbenz in Guatemala who attempted a peaceful reform. Yeah, the situation in Zimbabwe has no parallel with what happened in Latin America. Any quest for justice that requires sacrifices to be made should immediately be abandoned. No wonder Nigeria is progressing, we sit back while we're being lashed time and time again, we do not fight so we prosper. Any quest for justice should not be painful for the oppressed, afterall that is why freedom fighters are exalted. They had it so easy, the oppressors caved in immediately and did not attempt to quell any uprising.

Mugabe is bad, land reforms are bad and yes Zimbabweans are supposed to be automatically productive after being labourers on their own lands since God knows when. Agricultural production is an acquired skill, you need experience to begin producing on that scale, with time Zimbabweans will figure it out.

Woe betide Mugabe for unsitting Ian Smith and apartheid Rhodesia. How can someone who has spent his whole life fighting against apartheid and white oppression attempt land reforms when in office?. . .How possible is that? I'm surprised someone who fought the apartheid in Zimbabwe is interested in land reforms, how unlikely!

Next time I see injustice, I'll fold my arms if the oppressors are going to opposed to it. Justice is only worth it when you do not have to fight for it, nature of life!

YEAH NOW I SEE WHERE YOU'RE ALL COMING FROM. . .Nincompoops, future of Nigeria indeed, people who are scared to take on REAL issues!

Donzman your reasoning patter is why Africa is where it is today you totally misunderstand the issues at hand. The bigger picture is a just and prosperous society now and in the future for Zimbabwens.

Lets understand ourselves no one is saying land reforms are wrong, i agree the lands should be taken from the whites but HOW?. Has this reform led to better income distribution, please don't be deceived this structure would lead that nation to greater problems in future. Its similar to the Nigerian case in the 70's and 80's when all the reforms was designed to enrich a few, the distribution of income is so skewed how easy today has it been to wrestle power from the hands of those that control wealth.

It would help you to look at western behaviour as a constant (selfish and interest protection) and concentrate on the other variables how they can be manipulated to bring desired results. So in context you have a constant variable working against your prosperity and independence then you manipulate the others to greater income disparity, macro ecomonic disaster and a draconian society where there is no opposition what you have is Zimbabwe.

You seem to forget that the west didnt encourage China, yes the scenerios where different but those leaders manipulated the variable they could control to their advantage.

Now faced with a different scenerios African leaders cannot deliever truth be told African leaders are lazy intellectually and incompetent. You talk of Agriculture as if it is rocket science, what skills need to be acquired the country can't even produce enough to feed itself and you dare accuse the West is it the West stopping the crops from growing in Zimbabwe, Mugabe has ensured the competent enterpreneurs who may share opposite views are outside the picture. You really don't get this

You remind me of young naive political sciene students back in school, that don't understand issues in details.

Donzman

Now lets not be sentimental in our arguements. I will look at this without all the Political "mubo jumbo", I have lived there so i will address the issues from a first hand experience. Starting with the social issues.

1. Granted that the head of Industries and major owners of farms were white, this didn't stop Blacks employment rising. Unlike what pertains in Nigeria, the Average black Zimbabwean had a good education (University of Zimbabwe was in the top 5 African University rankings) and was guaranteed a good job. Now Donzman, most of the guys are in Europe and SA washing plates and doing menial jobs. Is that Progress!?

2. Like i said, the average Zimbabwean could afford the basics of life, Housing, Clothing and Food. There were enough recreational facilities (mostly situated at Harare, but places like Bulawayo were developed as well) which were affordable to all, Like i alluded to, most whites kept to themselves in areas like Borrowdale and Chisipity, where they had their own facilities and such, but that didn't things affect much, as Blacks could go to where ever they wanted to(and did too Funnily enough apart from the Pubs, most of the facilities in the white occupied areas were being used by blacks folks, most sports bars and restuarants had more black customers than the whites they were meant to cater to), no restrictions. So the accusation of Apartheid is non relevant here.

Onto the precious Land reform issue, Listen Don, The fact that the White farmers took the Land centuries back cannot be argued, but lets get over this self pity stuff, before Mugabe went on his Mad raid, Whites had been farming on these lands and knew what it entailed to get the best from them, They had access to Machinery, and Technology to enable them get results in terms of productivity. They had ready made markets open for their goods, in Africa and Abroad. Zimbabwe was even competing with SA as a strong African Economic power, all this taking into consideration the fact that they were land locked and had to go through SA to ship or get raw materials and goods.

The Macro affects the Micro,  so these gains spread round the nation, Zimbabwe had good roads, Their train system worked, they had quality affordable housing, The street lights worked, the police is one of the best equiped in Africa, Tourism with spots like Victoria falls, and the Matebe Highlands was thriving. Compared to Zambia and SA, the Blacks people had every basic needs met (even there was an immigration problem of South Africans, Zambians and Tanzanians running to Zimbabwe because of the Economic opprtunities being offered). NOW ALL THIS IS GONE!!  

Now like debo asked, Mugabe started his rise to absolute power from independence in 1980, (leave the crap Mbeki was talking about alone, that arguement is for babies ) You mean to say that it took him 20 something years to actually think of land reform programs. Ok let me give you the benefit of the doubt that its not the timing that matters, but Don the issue is, Why do land reforms and,

A, Only share lands to War veterans that supported you, and others that toed the ZANU PF line.

B, Give them to folks that have no idea of what it takes to undertake mechanised farming, have no access to ready made markets and credit to purchase stuff like fertilisers.

C, I have no problem with the "no compensation" policy (let the British boggers compensate their kindred ) but couldn't Mugabe make a system where there were partnerships between the white and Black farmers (most white zimbabweans actually see zimbabwe as their home and would have loved to compromise and stay there, as they were born and bred there; Yes they lived a priviledged lifestyle because of their colour and background, but history should be faulted for that).

Listen despite your arguements put forward, which under normal circumstances could be acknowledged as being forthright, the problem with Zimbabwe is that, their current situation is being brought about by the "power cravings of an Intelligent mad man". Mugabe only uses "Pan africanism" to rally the troops, the War Veterans, and intimidate any person he sees as an opponent, he has always been doing this, so nothing is new. Disguising the Land Reform issues under the Umbrella of "Black empoweremnt" is not only insulting but despicable and shallow.

Who now is being empowered Not the majority who cannot afford a meal of maize and stew (which is the normal staple food of our Southern African brothers) Don is there Bread and Milk in the Market, Do folks have meat or Poultry to eat, is Electricity stable, Is there security of lives and property, AIDS is now rampant with outbreaks of other diseases. Now ask yourself these questions before you go on a crusade of empowerment.

If the empowerment only favours 2% of the population, then what is the point, cause the "long run doesn't lookgood for the average zimbabwean.

The animal called man!!!

DONZ

Now i know when it concerns Zim, the BBC are the last place to look for Pro Mugabe news, but let me reiterate; Every other African leader in the SADC has come out to condemn their colleague over his brutality (except for the coward Mbeki). So the arguement of "Black Empowerment" Mugabe style, is sick and not worthy of recognition. As the only persons being empowered by Mugabe's rule is "MUGABE".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6475851.stm

Leave sentiments aside, the Man is a disgrace and one of the reasons most Africans are ashamed to hold their heads up high. This is blatant tyranny, the likes of Stalin and PolPot, but we all keep quiet as a nation crumbles before our very eyes

loyika:

1. Granted that the head of Industries and major owners of farms were white, this didn't stop Blacks employment rising. Unlike what pertains in Nigeria, the Average black Zimbabwean had a good education (University of Zimbabwe was in the top 5 African University rankings) and was guaranteed a good job. Now Donzman, most of the guys are in Europe and SA washing plates and doing menial jobs. Is that Progress!?

loyika how do you know what obtains in Nigeria? And what proof can you show that University of Zimbabwe was rated 5th in Africa, please what is it rated in the World ratings. A one eyed man can only boast to the blind, lets not be mediocres our Universities are far from what they should be.

I hope you didnt expect to get away with that on a forum with Nigerians,

Given that today,Zimbabwe is a major recipient of food aid from the West,I don't see how what is happening in Zimbabwe constitutes black empowerment especially since Zimbabwe used to be a major agricultural exporter

Their is no "power" in taking food aid from the West nor is there "power" in causing many black Zimbabweans to take up asylum in Western countries.

Policies that reduce a people to paupers surviving on foreign aid cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as the empowerment of the people

The Macro affects the Micro,  so these gains spread round the nation, Zimbabwe had good roads, Their train system worked, they had quality affordable housing, The street lights worked, the police is one of the best equiped in Africa, Tourism with spots like Victoria falls, and the Matebe Highlands was thriving. Compared to Zambia and SA, the Blacks people had every basic needs met (even there was an immigration problem of South Africans, Zambians and Tanzanians running to Zimbabwe because of the Economic opprtunities being offered). NOW ALL THIS IS GONE!! 

I was reasoning with you until you said this.Blacks in Zimbabwe didn't have any basic needs met, they were suffering while the whites were enjoying, I know some Zimbabweans here, thanks for playing though.

Now like debo asked, Mugabe started his rise to absolute power from independence in 1980, (leave the crap Mbeki was talking about alone, that arguement is for babies ) You mean to say that it took him 20 something years to actually think of land reform programs. Ok let me give you the benefit of the doubt that its not the timing that matters, but Don the issue is, Why do land reforms and,

Are you daft?. . .Didn't you hear me say time and time again that he put off the land reforms for the anti-apartheid movement of the mid80's - early 90's to go through. How does that amount to 20 years?

If the empowerment only favours 2% of the population, then what is the point, cause the "long run doesn't lookgood for the average zimbabwean.

I didn't know you were a soothsayer!

Given that today,Zimbabwe is a major recipient of food aid from the West,I don't see how what is happening in Zimbabwe constitutes black empowerment especially since Zimbabwe used to be a major agricultural exporter

These are the things that upset me, people see these things on some Western newspapers and swallow. The white farmers were producing wheat, is wheat a staple for any black African society?. . .Most of the exports were wheat, the farms were streamlined to produce wheat. With time and experience, Zimbabweans will be able to produce whatever they want.

The rest of your arguments sounds like saying it's ok to be a slave in your own land as long as you're better off than the slave next door. Makes no sense to someone like me who doesn't take crap!

@ Rest

Yes Mugabe is a tyrant but so are many leaders who haven't caught half as much heat as he has. Why is Mugabe suffering all of these in the press? Reason is simple, it's because of his land reforms, any honest person will be able to appreciate that much.

was the wheat exported to Europe? NO it went to other African countries as well who consumed it. do you know how much wheat is consumed in Nigeria even though it is not regarded as a 'staple'? go ask flour mills of Nigeria how many tonnes they import!

the Zimbabweans also consumed wheat, and it was not only wheat that was produced. other food crops were produced as well.

the reality on ground is that there were no food shortages before these hasty and unplanned land grabs which decimated the economy. there was no starvation, they were a net food exporter - indicating enough to meet domestic demand, stop playing with words.

were the whites using all the hospitals, universities, roads and other facilities alone? were blacks not benefitting? granted there was a land imbalance, but nowhere close to the catastrophic system breakdown that has occured now, the people may not recover from this stupidly implemented moves for ages

I dont believe the whites should be allowed to dominate (which I said ages ago on this thread if you bothered to read) but that a logical and reasonable plan empowering Zimbabweans to take over the farms and manage properly should have been implemented. BUT since Mugabe's plan was to perpetuate himself in power, not really the concern for the people, his mismanagement has led to this terrible situation now. He is not even interested in doing anything to resuscitate the farms, all he is doing is ensuring there is no opposition to his rule, whether the country suffers or not for that.

you asked whether i was as brilliant as Mugabe, Hitler and Sese Seko were brilliant, but they were still tyrants, intelligence can be used wrongly to manipulate people, which is what is happening in Zimbabwe today

The point you all are failing to appreciate is that no matter the leader, the land reforms would have been scuttled by the West, it's that simple. It happened all over Latin America, I don't expect anything different in Zimbabwe.

I beg to disagree - SA has begun a similar process, it is not being 'scuttled'

Mugabe has driven off the white farmers and Zimbabweans now have the land, how was that 'scuttled' by the West? the dereliction and abrupt collapse of the agricultural system is all Mugabe's doing, the West did not engineer that.

his mismanagement of the process and his greed for power has ruined the country now, don't tell me that this process could not have been better thought out and done properly. Zimbabwe is not the only country that had white dominated farms, they had it in Kenya, Tanzania and other countries. Issues were resolved without the unnecessary pain being inflicted on the Zimbabweans happening now.

Yeah OK!

@ Buliti

First i know what pertains in Nigeria as it concerns "Employment" because i am a Nigerian, and i can see what my fellow nigerians are going through all in the name of finding a job, case in point; The Infamous Intercontinental Bank test in lagos, The Guinnes Test around the country, and so many other examples of the pity state of our graduates who might go 3-5 years with out any reasonable employment.

Secondly please here are the rankings of African Universities;

http://www.webometrics.info/top100_continent.asp?cont=africa

Notice how Nigerian Universities are not in the top 10, Like i said before, University of Zimbabwe was among the Top 5 African Universities, Now its gone out of the Top 10. If you chose to believe otherwise, then i can't say much to you.

@ Donzman

You know some Zimbabweans, Well i won't argue with you, But at least i "LIVED" there for 2 and a half years, and most of my closest friends are Zimbabweans. Now the point is that even in western countries like The United Kingdom, USA, and so on, there are still a majority of the Population that are poor. Even Jesus said "the poor you have with you always", so what is your point. Donzman in Nigeria are the Expats living a poor life. Like i said, Knowing some folks and living there are 2 different things.

Granted that they are indegines of the area, and i was only a visitor, but DON if you go to Ajegunle and ask someone if he is happy with Nogeria, do you expect a positive answer!? Now go to someone that works and lives on the Island, or that lives in Maitama in Abuja and ask that same question, i bet you 9 times out of 10 that the answer you would get would be different. Same as asking a black person who lives in Brixton what he feels of England, compared to asking a Black person that lives in St John's Wood North London the same question!? Listen if you accuse me of generalising, i would say that "knowing a few Zimbabweans does not constitute knowing Zimbabwe!?"

Don i had a first hand experience of living there, 1 year in Harare and 1 and a half years at Bulawayo. Even if you think i am biased, ask yourself this;

What would i have to gain This is not in my nature, but i would have you know that i have the priviledge of knowing and having met Mr Mugabe on quite a number of occasions, I have been priviledge to have had audiences with him, where he would have chats with i and some friends, giving us insights and allowing us ask him questions on a variety of issues.  Thats is why i could allude to the fact that he was so bloody intelligent, it hurt, (i consider him to be one of the most Intelligent world leaders around) and the Man has a crazy sense of humour, it was unbelievable

Now Donz if i said that "Blacks had the basics they needed pre the Land Re distribution program", would that not necessary mean a plus for Mugabe as the ruler, Then if you said "Whites had all the riches and majority of blacks lived in poverty" wouldn't that constitute a Minus for the same Man, as he was the ruler for 20 years plus. As you can see any arguement could be used to put forward one point or the other.

Basic fact is, that Mugabe was forced into his Land reform program in its present state. The "War Veterans" had asked for this policy to be implemented a long time ago, but the same Mugabe felt this was "Economic sucide" and labelled them as being "stupid and clueless". Tensions were eased, through bribes or intimidation. What he had in mind were Partnerships, and a gradual Distribution of Land to Black folks that had some capital, and who goverment felt could actually contribute to developing these lands. Majority of the Land was to be owned by government and then leased out in plots to folks.

Some areas were being prepared for sole black ownership, especially in the area of Tobacco production, where Many Black zimbabweans had already started to make serious headways. Now most whites farmers were not too happy with the proposals, due to the sticky issue of "Compensation". For this i have already said, i agree with Mugabe's stance, that the British should compensate their own. Now instead of following the path of negotiation, they felt that Britain could put pressure and intimidate Zimbabwe, This peeved off the Old man, who was also losing a grip on the political situation, as the second VP had died, and the Heir apparent who was being groomed to take over from Robert M, mysteriously had a car accident on his way home, coming from the Airport and died.

There were rumblings in Parliament, and Mugabe had the opportunity to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. seeing as he might not get reforms to the constitution he wanted passed, He informed his beloved counterpart acroos the border of his decision, and seeing no resistance, pushed forward a harsher policy of land re-distribution, than was earlier planned. The War veterans had a field day, Pillaging and causing problems, that the government had to step in to calm the situation before it got out of hand.

I won't bore you with discussing the rest, as we all have an idea of the rest of the story, But let me say this, "You don't bite your nose to spite your face". Acting as if the "land re distribution" policy as was implemented is what you had in mind in the first place is nothing more than a disgrace. Donz a majority of African leaders know the truth about this, and most are speaking up. I repeat, Mbeki isn't speaking up, not because of SA's plan also for land Redistribution, which will be implemented in a gradual phase manner (as was the intial plan of the Zimbabwe goverment), but because his relationship with Mugabe goes deep. Mandela won't speak, because he knows Mugabe will insult him over his Marriage to Graca Machel, Samora Machel's wife, and will also say he is a "Coconut", and has been softened by his time on Robben Island.

The problem here is the stance of Britain on the matter. Mugabe loathes Mr Blair and see the British as being Hypocrites (He hates Britain as well for their liberal nature, especially as it concerns issues like Homosexuality).

Now you mentioned other Tyrants, Well Pinochet did not die a happy man, Milosovic died in jail, Charles Taylor is in custody, Saddam Hussien was hanged (leave the intrigues of iraq, i am only trying to state a point), Mobutu, died a lousy death and so on. Listen we all know that many evil people are still around getting the support of western leaders, but Donz, when did "Two wrongs make a right!"

On your need to bring up the Latin American and Chinese examples, i will say that their situations were/are quite different than what pertains here. (I could go on about the Chinese For example, when Bob Mugabe, started his "look to the east" policy, little did he know that the Chinese had a "One Africa" agenda, which was not just solely going to favour Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe was just part of the general a[b]"take over Africa's development plans"[/b] that the Chinese had in mind. Like you keep saying, "are we now going to replace one Slave master with another" as the Chinese will only replace the White folks as the Leaders of industries and elite in society. I am reminded of that old adage "Nothing like a free lunch". Thats why i said the immediate future does not look bright, cause Mugabe is now aware that the special relationship he thought he might get from Asia, isn't "that special!?" afterall.

Now on your statement insulting me, well i chose to leave that alone, i specifically chose to not get into a "technical arguement" here, with all the Political, and Economic "mumbo jumbo", trying to explain things from first hand experiences and through associaton, i do not claim to know it all as it concerns Ziombabwe, as i am a Nigerian and not Zimbabwean in anyway (however not even 50% of zimbabweans can tell you the true situation, they can only talk of their own circumstance as they live it, and that would be different from person to person). I am a Political Science graduate, Even did Political Studies among my A Levels and O Levels courses. So i really have nothing to prove interms of being too technical (funnily enough, i actually find discussing politics boring, been doing it for 20 years of my life on earth, so get no joy in doing it on a forum).

I am not using this as a means to say, i know more than anyone, that would be very stupid of me, but if you read my first post, i said i saw the topic, and having been priviledged to have lived in Zim, and having the opportunities of Meeting and knowing  folks that normally are out of the sights of the average Zimbabwean, and getting access to places and people that lets just say, are "out of bounds to the average folks", i felt a need to give my views.

I repeat, "I HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN", I know the Man, so for me to be critical means, i am disappointed , I wanted to give some personal insights on the Man, but chose against it, as it would amount to betraying the trust of family and friends that through association, afforded me the opportunities and priviledges i enjoyed during my 2 and a half years sojourn in ZIMBABWE.

I am only giving my honest views of how i saw the Zimbabwe matter, and i leave it at that.

@ loyika please i want to believe you are educated, you provide a ranking based on "web content" is this a joke, i took the quote below from their website and put the appropriate link by it.

"The ranking started in 2004 and is based on a combined indicator that takes into account both the volume of the Web contents and the visibility and impact of this web publications according to the number of external inlinks (sitations) they received" http://www.webometrics.info/index.html

IN my opinion this rankings do not give a true representation of the current situations in the universities, the criteria we should be looking at include funding of research, student/lecturer ratio, infrastructure-learning tools, library conditions (accessibility to current journals), quality of teaching staff, entry requirements, employability of graduates and so on the list is endless it depends on the rating agency and not based on some "web content", pls try and get the Times Higeher Education Supplement or any other such ratings then we can talk.

My position which you chose to ignore is what is their position in the world, we are celebrating mediocrity, theres no african univesity in the worlds top 100 so please lets keep mute.

Since you are Nigerian you should understand the Nigerian pecularity of many Universities chunning out millions of graduates each year that the economy cannot absorb. As i stated earlier its all about inconpetent leadership that cannot design policies that guarantee growth. You might choose to exalt a nation that has one University producing 2,000 graduates to a nation that has 100 universities but truth be told its the inconpetency of the leadership that cannot harness the strenths in any environment to provide meaningful development.

I agree with you on the unemployment but please you are quoting one extreme you havent spoken of the other well organised tests and their results. People get good jobs everyday in Nigeria, however while we look at it in percentage terms we realise the economy is not growing at the pace it should. So please drop that arguement its for another thread.

I tire for all these journalists for nairaland o. Please can you guys keep your posts short. My eyes are hurting me o. Haba!        

No mind me jare. . .

loyika your arguement on Zimbabwe can be compared to Donzmans arguement, its all about personal perception and not facts. You even go as far as talking of Mandela/wife/Mugabe, Tony Blair, homosexuality bla bla and all. Whilst i agree that we should look at issues in its totality, you are bringing in "old women tales" into this arguement we cannot ascertain the veracity of those claims so please lets try and stick to facts.

You state that Mugabe is very intelligent more like crafty you mean compareable to our won IBB. An intelligent man is guided by his intelligence which Mugabe is currently not guided by. The issues are clear you are bringing too many angles to it, Land reforms and the antedant impact on the Zimbabwe economy.

The originator of the thread was off the opinion that Mugabe was celebrating when there was no reason to, the issue is that he should be ashamed, then Donzman is of the opinion that he should celebrate as he is taking difficult decisions the west are opposed to so its the west fault (see how your arguements are similar), blaming other people for the problem to Donzman its the west, to you its the war veterans in Zimbabwe, when would we as Africans learn.

I summarise by saying that Mugabe engaged on a reform (incompetency) he didnt understand for selfish reason (irrespective of Mbeki, Mandela etc), the result of such a reform has been catastrophic, it was not based on the interest of the country and as such the results would not be in the interest of the country. It has nothing to do with Pan-Africanism it was an insult to economics and all the principles. It was "fundamentally irresponsiple to engage on it the way he did.

@ Razor pls tell them,

But you know that politics is plenty talk, issues cant be brief like romance, thats also complicated but can be summarised in few words. Am not implyin anythin before you let out the venon.

Mugabe's own welfare/hold on power takes precedence over the welfare of his people. i think he should just resign in the interest of his country.

Buluti

There is nothing as "True Facts in politics", The only people that think they know the facts are those that are involved, I can tell you a lot of stuff aboout Nigeria, but you would say they were also perceptions. I mentioned Mandela and Mbeki, because i was trying to let Donz know that Mbeki, and Mandela's silence over the issue, is not only restricted to SA wanting to impolement their own policy. I posted a BBC link showing other SADC leaders complaining on what is happening. Everyone has been surprised about the "Loud silence" coming from SA over the issue.

After all the same Mandela, got into a word of words with Abacha, over his plans to stay in power.

I didn't blame the War veterans, i said that Mugabe used them as cannon fodder, and a means to an end. As they are the Foot soilders used to intimidate oppposition from folks in Zimbabwe. (Donz can ask his Zimbabwean pals about them, it is a well know fact ).

I didn't mean to imply that he was intelligent in his policies, i meant that he was a very intelligent man. Buluti, intelligent people do stupid things, Bill Gates has done some stupid things in his life with Microsoft, Was it not Intelligent folks that created the Atomic Bomb Was it not intelligent men that used it on Japan Is Condi Rice not intelligent, but still choses to associate herself with GW Bush Intelligence does not mean doing the right thing, Most of the well known serial killers, are Bloody intelligent folks. Many Nigerian 419 guys are Second class level graduates. So i leave that point.

Buluti, please read my post again, DO YOU SEE ME PRAISE MUGABE'S POLICY I was only trying to give an insight into some of the indices that forced his hand, as there is no smoke without fire (only in Home videos do you see this ) The decision to take my words are left to your own decision, i am not trying to convince anyone here, i Know the life i have lived and people i have met, folks that know me personally are who matter, this is a forum, where we all express our views. I am not here to hold brief for anyone. I have lived in the so called place, so i can have an opinion (being considered right or wrong, is not within my control), the same way i can have an opinion on Nigeria, Ghana, Namibia, United kingdom, USA and so on. Buluti, even as a Nigerian, no one can ever claim to know everything that goes on, Even Obasanjo, doesn't have 50% knowledge of what is going on in the Presidency. (case in point PDTF )

Read my first post to see my opinion on Mugabe, i chose to talk personally, only in discussion with Donz, that we should not necessary compare the situation in Latin America with Africa. If this was an issue on Iraq, i will have less to say, as for one; i haven't been there, and can only talk about what i have watched and read in newspapers and TV.

I am not arguing with amnyone , I am not Zimbabwean, i am Nigerian, so apart from having some Zimbabwean family and friends, i should have nothing to gain from being bothered about what goes on there. Like i said, i saw the topic, and got into it, as i had a little insight into the issue. (if i knew where you were i could also give you all my Economist and New African Mags on the whole debacle, Both take different stands like the forum, with the Economist taking our stand, and New African taking Donzman stand. I have sent letters to both publications expressing my views on this issue as well. Anyway if you can try and get them, if you are interested they sell back dated issues, Believe me all the mags will give you quite a read.)

loyika I quite understand your view, in parts i agree with you and appreciate that you have details of things others might not based on your personal experience and insight. But i maintain that facts remain even in politics but since its human behoaviour capturing these facts accurately tend to be a difficult exercise in contrast is "old women tales" which people make up.

My personal opinion on Mugabe as many African leaders is simple its all about incompetence, they really don't know what to do even if they want to and lest i forget selfishness.

Your arguement on intelligence suggest intelligence is a wrong virtue, what you are looking at is the rightness of the actions of intelligent people, thats has to do with morals and personal ethics not intelligence. My arguement is that intelligence should lead to competence. The list of people you gave are competent even the 419 guy is competent in that he can deceive his prey.

Mugabe is in-competent in that he has failed to deliver a prosperous Zimbabwe through his land reforms programme. Somehow we are saying the same thing i am just choosing a simple analysis.

Now on to the Universities stuff, once again you misunderstand me, I was not praising University of Zimbabwe among World Universities as Harvard or MIIT, What i said was that University of Zimbabwe was among the top 5 Universities in Africa, as at the time i was there. Zimbabwe only had 1 Public University, and 1 newly created (when i was there) Private University, called the African University in Mutare. Now a country that had only one University to pump money into, would necessary produce a better University, than a country that has some many Universities and schools under its mandate.

Listen as for University rankings, well what i can say is that, I eventually finished my studies at the University in nigeria, now anytime i travel out and tell folks where i finished from, they are tripped, believing that it must be an African high class University. Once I even helped out as a resource person in one of these British Education Fairs held in Nigeria, and there was a ranking of Nigerian Universities that was provided and each British University Rep would use these rankings provided (by whom i don't know as it wasn't strictly based on NUC's criteria) to ask students where they graduated from, then they would look at the position of your University on that ranking and determine if your Uni was ranked high enough for them to even bother talking to you. I still have my docs on the Ranking, and i can tell you my University was ranked in a quite high (my opinion) place than where i felt it ought to be. I mean I went to the DAMN University

So you see, Most folks know that African Universities are not in the Top 10, whether Times Higher Education or Guardian Education UK rankings, but they use these other Web rankings as a way to gauge the positions of those African Universities (who doesn't know that SA Universities are seen/percieved as the highest ranked in Africa) Most Nigerians i know now go to Ghana for their Masters and PHDs, because they feel University of Ghana is rated higher outside our shores than any Nigerian University you can think of (personally for MBA i would feel LBS was higher but that is a different issue).

Will not talk about the employment stuff as it really has nothing to do with the topic, i will only ask you to read my statement on it, once again i was only alluding to the fact that Zimbabwe's employment rates were quite reasonable and ok, trying to remove the myth that the Average zimbabwean was unemployed and living below the poverty line, i used Nigeria, in comparism, because i have seen what unemployment have done to graduates (granted Nigeria is bigger than Zim in terms of size and population) like every country in the World, Zim has their own problems, Do you know the level of umemployment in countries like Germany and USA, yet folks still go there and find jobs. Anyway topic for another thread.

Hope you understand me, i ain't arguing with anyone like i said, i saw the topic and contributed as i felt i had an insight. My opinions can be rejected, makes no difference to me, I KNOW WHAT I SAW, and how i felt people lived.

Loyika darling, I am begging you now. . .

Razorr

Dear this is "Politics" section, Not "Romance", like Buluti told you, "its full of talk!! talk!!" So if you are in Rome, do like the Romans, or go to "Pari" and behave like the Parisians

I still love you sha. . .

loyika but you can still try ,

Again the ranking used by the British firms would be based on certain criterias which i doubt web content would be part of, if i am to choose a rating to follow since everyone claims their universities are the best i have to choose a rating agency that uses relevant criterias.

My point again University of Zimbabwe might be good in your opinion but the ranking you provided cannot be used to substantiate that opinion.

Razorr

Dear i didn't insult you, i would never do that , ARE YOU MUGABE