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Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 7:14pm On Dec 19, 2017 |
ken4christ, you're write ups are cool, but I still believe the word "preserve" in this context is wrong. No doubt that good works are of high importance in christianity but as to the preservation or keeping of salvation, works cannot preserve what grace gives. Even the works themselves are by-products of grace (Titus 2:11-12). God Himself has the sole responsibility of preserving what He gives "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless...." (Jude:24). "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Peter 1:5). Works in itself are more like signs for men and not for God (Matt 5:16). God has called us unto good works to the glory of His name (1Peter 2:12), not unto the preservation of our salvation. He will keep me and preserve me and I will live my life according as He pleases in appreciation. 1 Like |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 12:07am On Dec 20, 2017 |
plainbibletruth: I read you post from top to bottom as I always to when I respond to people on nairaland. you said and I quote salvation is a package with so many things in it... Redemption, regeneration, justification, propitiation, imputation, forgiveness, etc I read it and immediately noticed you mentioned redemption, propitiation, both are works Christ did on the cross, in redemption he bought us back by paying the price of our sins, propitiation is a sacrificial term denoting how Jesus satisfied the demands of Justice by offering to his father a worthy sacrifice... those has nothing to do with works done in grace so they don't relate to the thread... you mentioned regeneration, forgiveness, imputation they all are related to as fall under justification.... what you didn't mention in the most telling, you neither mentioned sanctification nor glorification... in fact you skipped the parts of salvation that dealt with works done in grace and only mentioned the topics that relate exclusively to the works of Jesus and justification... that is why I feel justified in saying you consider salvation mainly in terms of justification. so let me ask you, do you consider salvation to include our judgement or not? do you consider salvation as a one time only event? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Goshen360(m): 12:52am On Dec 20, 2017 |
joshnes: This is gospel as simple as ABC and I've been preaching the same thing. Some folks here are just out to say whatever they like to say. Thank you! |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ken4Christ: 8:57am On Dec 20, 2017 |
joshnes: I understand your submission. Perhaps, the word preserve is took strong to express my point. But most Christians are so complacent in their service to God. For instance, you see someone who claims to be born again and even tongue speaking not doing anything in the house of God after several years of conversion. Such person stands the risk of losing his salvation. He can be likened to a wicked and lazy servant Jesus spoke about in his parable of the talent. Even Apostle Paul warned that those who habitually miss Church services will suffer more severe punishment than similar offenders under the older covenant - Hebrews 10:25-31. Remember the letters Jesus wrote to the Churches in Asia minor. His emphasis was on works. I can say in summary that we are saved by grace but we will be judged by our works. So many will be rewarded more than others. Quite a few others will be completely disqualified. The issue of right living will of course also come in. 1 Like |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:38am On Dec 20, 2017 |
Goshen360:I hope you are aware that the fact that you teach same doesn't make it true. if you think some folks are saying what they like then man up and rebut/refute them |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 11:10am On Dec 20, 2017 |
joshnes: God calls us to good works not just to give glory to himself but also that through it he may attain unto so great a salvation (glory), that we were promise. John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him don't be deceived by any that you are not under wrath if you live in disobedience. he who believes must be careful to obey. in fact good works is a reason for which we were created. Ephesians 2:8-10 it will be the basis for eternal life or wrath. Romans 2:6-10 ESV He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. lastly you are correct that God himself preserves our salvation and the Bible tells us how he does it, he multiply his grace in us so that we may not be wanting in good works. Philippians 2:13 ESV For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. 2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed; |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 11:38am On Dec 20, 2017 |
ken4christ thanks for your last quote. Works as you said determine reward, not salvation. Hence some christians will be rewarded more than others. Once you accept Christ, you're saved, works will not increase or reduce your salvation. If works could save or preserve salvation then it will be useless preaching to a dying man, because, he will not have the chance to work. Salvation is an inheritance not a reward. You don't work for an inheritance you are born (again) into it, but you will have to work for a reward. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 11:55am On Dec 20, 2017 |
I am sorry ubenedictus but you're wrong. Firstly, works will not make you attain salvation, belief in Jesus gives salvation. Eternal life is not a reward, but an inheritance. You don't work for an inheritance, you're born into it, in this case born again into it. Works determine reward not salvation. If works makes you attain salvation, then it will be useless for anyone to accept Christ on a death bed. Secondly, I never supported disobedience, if you read what you quoted well I said works are highly important for a christian, highly important. Works are an offshoot of your faith, you can't say you're saved and revel in disobedience. Jesus Himself went about doing good but, works will not enhance or reduce your salvation, definitely influence your reward. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ken4Christ: 5:40pm On Dec 20, 2017 |
joshnes: But on account of completely worthless works, some believers will miss heaven altogether. Don't you believe this? The warning of Apostle Paula in Hebrews 10:25-31 is one witness to that fact. The letter of Jesus to the Laodicean Church is another witness. 1 Like |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ken4Christ: 5:45pm On Dec 20, 2017 |
Ubenedictus: There Are those who also will fall away from the faith. Grace becomes effective when We do the right things. What about those who completely withdraw through commitment to God. The Bible says they do so to their own destructions - Hebrews 10:38-39. 1 Like |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 12:31am On Dec 21, 2017 |
Ken4Christ:Amen |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 1:18am On Dec 21, 2017 |
joshnes: Firstly I never claimed works make people attain salvation. especially when you seem to talk of salvation mainly as justification. In fact what I believe is different. I believe, man is saved by Grace through faith apart from works, that is justification. I also believe that man is saved so that he may perform the good work for which God foreordained him to walk in just as the apostle Paul teach. I also agree with scriptures as it says who who does righteous deeds is righteous and that falls under sanctification. then finally I believe as scripture teaches that will grant eternal life to those who do righteous deeds and damn those who live in sin Romans 2:6-10 ESV He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. as such eternal life in heaven is both inheritance and reward. Romans 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. note the Conditional If Colossians 3:23-24 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. the Bible calls it REWARD OF INHERITANCE, the inheritance is a reward. work do impart you salvation, one who is saved but doesn't work has refused to fulfill the very reason for which God created him infact such a persons faith will not save him. . |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 1:18am On Dec 21, 2017 |
joshnes:salvation is both inheritance and reward Colossians 3:23-24 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 7:44am On Dec 21, 2017 |
Ubenedictus:"reward of the inheritance", that is reward of the salvation. There are rewards attached to your works if you're saved. If salvation is a reward, then it can't be an inheritance, you either work for it or not. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 8:50am On Dec 21, 2017 |
ubenedictus, this is clearer, but the description in Rom 2:9-10, can't be of christians, that description is for unbelievers. I believe we are SAVED for good works. There are things we need to do as christians to maintain our new nature and all these things are found in God. All. Victory above sin is given by God, even though we have our parts to play. The works we are referring to we do them by God (Phil 2:12-13). No doubt that works are important, but they are only important for the salvation of the soul and not the spirit. A dying man who surrenders to Christ will go to heaven without any works, why? Because, his spirit is saved, there is no need for works to do that. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 11:00am On Dec 25, 2017 |
Ubenedictus:bro its even on Wikipedia that he didn't start pls Google it ....... am sincere .... |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 11:04am On Dec 25, 2017 |
joshnes: lolz man is a spirit lolz KENNETH HAGIN AT IT AGAIN |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 1:26pm On Jan 01, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:give me a name na |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 1:36pm On Jan 01, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:. names were not written , it's not a issue priority if you believe me or not, basically my questions are 1) do you believe the five points of Calvinism 2) how are you justified, by Faith or works? 3) can you be justified by both? 4) the gentiles living contemporary to Abraham , how would they be declared righteous? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 10:42pm On Jan 02, 2018 |
Ferisidowu: all you have to do is show me anyone who taught Calvinism before Calvin... that's all. 1. No, I do not accept doctrines of men invented 1500 years after the death of the apostles and then read into scripture. in fact that is my definition for heresy. 2.3. no one is initially justified by both, we are justified by Grace according to God's mercy through the merits of Christ, and it is applied to us through Faith usually in baptism WITHOUT works done by human strength. that is how Christians have taught it for 2000 years. 4. to all who had faith in the one true God it was reckoned as righteousness. to those who didn't have that much faith Paul teaches Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. and To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self- seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 11:20am On Jan 03, 2018 |
Ubenedictus Lolz anyways I'd like you to show me the doctrines and the things wrong with it I'm very sure none of his doctrines are heretic .
Oh really, and you can condemn Calvinism ... Yet you claim we are justified by Grace according to God's mercy through the merits of Christ .. Now I ask you, is Grace the same as works? Do all know this Grace, does the Grace move them to believe Jesus.. Are all changed by this Grace? 4. to all who had faith in the one true God it was reckoned as righteousness. to those who didn't have that much faith Paul teaches Lolz no wonder you condemn Calvinism, how can the people contemporary to Abraham have faith in the true God which they never knew, were they not idolaters Even Abraham was an idolater before God called him, did God call all the people in Abraham's father's house? Did God commune with people like he did with Abraham? Could God not send Abraham to go about preaching the gospel to others? Did God do that? So you think God can be resisted like those ARMINIANS OF ARMINIANISM. MAYBE YOU EVEN ARMINIAN? Indeed, when Gentiles, And what does this change, people contemporary to Abraham that were not given the Grace will never be justified, even if they have the law in their hearts ... The only means to justification is Christ Jesus and Lolz now justification is by works, ryt, and also I understand this your point to mean that Christ isn't the ONLY WAY. Since those contemporary to Abraham can be justified by their works, then 1) it's useless that God called Abraham. 2) and also that Christ had not been crucified since the foundation of the world Can there be eternal life without Jesus? This verse you quoted is out of justification context We are saved only by Christ not works......... Although some people contemporary to Abraham were good yet that doesn't justify them, it's a prove that The law is written in their hearts... |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 3:07pm On Jan 03, 2018 |
joshnes: my dear the description in RM 2:9 relates to the standard of God in judgement both for Jews, Christian and gentile it tally with Matthew 15. you will enter heaven or be barred on the basis of works... that is a Gospel truth. we are saved For good works which God foreordained for us to walk in so that on the last day when we are asked we will present works done in Christ for scripture is clear the basis for heaven or hell is works. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 9:30pm On Jan 03, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:OK, lemme ask you again, what will happen to someone that gives his life to Christ just before he dies? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 9:42pm On Jan 03, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:oga what are you saying? Human works is never need for salvation nether is good works needed. Do you know the meaning of a gift? If you contributed something to get the gift is it a gift again? @ bold where is that written? If people will be barred from heaven on the basis of works then nobody will enter heaven not even Abraham. 1 Like |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 12:48am On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ferisidowu: my dear I asked a question you have not answered. please show Christians who taught Calvinism before Calvin and I'll gladly address these points. I hate a one sided discussion. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:17am On Jan 04, 2018 |
solite3:the m basis for justification is grace through faith in Christ merits. the basis for judgement is works, not faith, that is the basis every one will be judged. God saves us by faith unto good works and will judge us on those works Matthew 25 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. John 5:28-29 , Jesus says, “… for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.” Matthew 16:27 , Jesus says, “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.” 2 Cor. 5:10 , “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” Galatians 6:7-8 , “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.” |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:51am On Jan 04, 2018 |
joshnes:he goes to heaven! all his sins are wiped clean, he possess righteousness of Christ and is a friend of God and a son of God. he has no evil works, he possess the good works of Christ. God only damns the evil, his evil has been wiped clean, he will enter heaven on Christ's righteousness. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by joshnes(m): 8:25am On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:but a christian can't enter heaven on Christ righteousness alone? He/she must add his own righteousness? What is the difference (if any) in heaven between the man that accepted Jesus on his death bed and the one who worked out his salvation with fear and trembling? |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 12:16pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ubenedictus: alright I Don't know their names, let's even assume that Calvin was an heretic... answer the questions |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Ubenedictus(m): 6:16pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ferisidowu: OK, happily. |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 6:18pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
Ubenedictus:I'm waiting for your answers |
Re: Saved By Grace But Preserved By Works. by Nobody: 6:20pm On Jan 04, 2018 |
joshnes: if I get your point, you are contradicting yourself.. now tell me, the one that accepted Jesus on his death bed, how did he enter? how did he work out his salvation? |
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