some Christians argue that the moral law remains that Jesus abrogated the civil and ceremonial law but never removed the moral law . .
how true is this?

Ferisidowu:
some Christians argue that the moral law remains that Jesus abrogated the civil and ceremonial law but never removed the moral law . .
how true is this?

We talk about time of grace because of death of Jesus on the cross , but Jesus himself says in :

Matthew 5:17-19 KJV
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We don't know more than our God and saviour , that is final.

enilove:


We talk about time of grace because of death of Jesus on the cross , but Jesus himself says in :

Matthew 5:17-19 KJV
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We don't know more than our God and saviour , that is final.

alright but what do you understand by Galatians 2;21

Ferisidowu:
some Christians argue that the moral law remains that Jesus abrogated the civil and ceremonial law but never removed the moral law . .
how true is this?

Which one is moral law?

Deicide:
Which one is moral law?

bro ... the 10 commandments

Ferisidowu:

bro ...
the 10 commandments

Ok since Homosexuality is not under the 10 commandements it means that its moral to indulge in it?

Deicide:
Ok since Homosexuality is not under the 10 commandements it means that its moral to indulge in it?

I don't understand you... pls expatiate no one criticize the other only God knows all

Ferisidowu:
some Christians argue that the moral law remains that Jesus abrogated the civil and ceremonial law but never removed the moral law . .
how true is this?

it depends on wat u mean.. My submission is gonna be below

Deicide:
Ok since Homosexuality is not under the 10 commandements it means that its moral to indulge in it?

would you compare homosexuality with celebrating Christmas.... that's not a good comparison even Satanists know homosexuality is sin.... homosexuality is even addressed in the new testament. ..

that comparison is wrong

Ferisidowu:


alright but what do you understand by Galatians 2;21

Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The above verse does not mean "don't obey the law". It is just saying that obeying the law without accepting the death of Jesus is in vain.

For example.
To get employed in a company you need the required certificate ( grace ) , when you start working in the company you must follow the rules and regulations ( law ) of the company to enjoy the company.

Grace is like that . Let's read these verses below:

Leviticus 18:6-8 KJV
None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their unclothedness: I am the Lord .
[7] The unclothedness of thy father, or the unclothedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her unclothedness.
[8] The unclothedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's unclothedness.

Does grace mean we can now performed those acts above?
No , it is an abomination before God.
But grace will give you time to repent and confess them, to get forgiveness.

Let's read again :

Exodus 21:15-19 KJV
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
[16] And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
[17] And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
[18] And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
[19] If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

From the laws above, those kidnappers are guilty and worthy of death . But grace means they should repent. If they don't , they cannot make heaven , even if they go to church 365 days a year.
Nowadays churches don't kill because of grace, but witches and wizards, demons etc ,which are not under the grace , can carry out Gods judgement upon that person and kill him or her.
If you curse your father and mother , the church will not kill you but principalities and wicked powers have the right to kill the person and they will succeed easily because God's Law says " he that curse his father and mother shall be put to death", unless the person has repented and have been forgiving by his parents and God , that is grace.

That means God's laws must be followed ,but if we commit any of them , we have the grace to ask God to forgive us.

So therefore, the laws must be followed except those that relate to animal blood sacrifices or our blood .

enilove:


Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The above verse does not mean "don't obey the law". It is just saying that obeying the law without accepting the death of Jesus is in vain.

For example.
To get employed in a company you need the required certificate ( grace ) , when you start working in the company you must follow the rules and regulations ( law ) of the company to enjoy the company.

Grace is like that . Let's read these verses below:

Leviticus 18:6-8 KJV
None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their unclothedness: I am the Lord .
[7] The unclothedness of thy father, or the unclothedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her unclothedness.
[8] The unclothedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's unclothedness.

Does grace mean we can now performed those acts above?
No , it is an abomination before God.
But grace will give you time to repent and confess them, to get forgiveness.

Let's read again :

Exodus 21:15-19 KJV
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
[16] And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
[17] And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
[18] And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
[19] If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

From the laws above, those kidnappers are guilty and worthy of death . But grace means they should repent. If they don't , they cannot make heaven , even if they go to church 365 days a year.
Nowadays churches don't kill because of grace, but witches and wizards, demons etc ,which are not under the grace , can carry out Gods judgement upon that person and kill him or her.
If you curse your father and mother , the church will not kill you but principalities and wicked powers have the right to kill the person and they will succeed easily because God's Law says " he that curse his father and mother shall be put to death", unless the person has repented and have been forgiving by his parents and God , that is grace.

That means God's laws must be followed ,but if we commit any of them , we have the grace to ask God to forgive us.

So therefore, the laws must be followed except those that relate to animal blood sacrifices or our blood .

No one says grace means we shouldn't obey the law.... Anyone who says that is an heretic . .
We both agree that the law is good not one sincere Christian say so

What we are discussing in line with the topic is if the 10 commandment can stand against Christian I e if a Christian or THE Christian should not have obeyed the law completely through ignorance .... Would he be justified by God seeing ignorance is no excuse ....


Pls friend let not forget the topic or scope of this discussion...

Ferisidowu:


No one says grace means we shouldn't obey the law.... Anyone who says that is an heretic . .
We both agree that the law is good not one sincere Christian say so

What we are discussing in line with the topic is if the 10 commandment can stand against Christian I e if a Christian or THE Christian should not have obeyed the law completely through ignorance .... Would he be justified by God seeing ignorance is no excuse ....


Pls friend let not forget the topic or scope of this discussion...

That is exactly what I posted above.
Ten commandments are not the only laws .Like the law of not cursing your parents, anyone who does it may not be killed by the church unlike in the old testament, but will not make heaven if he did not ask for forgiveness from God and his parents .

Just take time and read what I posted above.

enilove:


That is exactly what I posted above.
Ten commandments are not the only laws .Like the law of not cursing your parents, anyone who does it may not be killed by the church unlike in the old testament, but will not make heaven if he did not ask for forgiveness from God and his parents .

Just take time and read what I posted above.

hmmm then what makes Christianity different from Judaism .... if I have to keep the law perfectly is Christ needed?

Ferisidowu:


hmmm then what makes Christianity different from Judaism .... if I have to keep the law perfectly is Christ needed?

What makes Christianity diff from Judaism is acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. The Jews are still expecting the Messiah who will lead them aright .

So the diff is confessing Jesus Christ as the Lord and saviour . There is therefore no more sacrifice of burnt offering and so on.
No more :

Exodus 20:24-25 KJV
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
[25] And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

Laws regarding Circumcision and menstruation like the below are not necessary . Laws like below:
Leviticus 15:19-22 KJV
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
[20] And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.
[21] And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
22] And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

enilove:


What makes Christianity diff from Judaism is acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. The Jews are still expecting the Messiah who will lead them aright .

So the diff is confessing Jesus Christ as the Lord and saviour . There is therefore no more sacrifice of burnt offering and so on.
No more :

Exodus 20:24-25 KJV
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
[25] And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

Laws regarding Circumcision and menstruation like the below are not necessary . Laws like below:
Leviticus 15:19-22 KJV
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
[20] And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.
[21] And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
22] And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.

I understand you, but of a fact I was born a gentile, I had no business with the whole laws of moses, as a gentile the only law I understood was the law of conscience and I had moral excellence ,, why then do I need Christ

Jesus is a Messiah how??
are the Jews sacrifice still accepted to God?

if I have to keep the law perfectly then how is Christ a Messiah?

Ferisidowu:


I understand you, but of a fact I was born a gentile, I had no business with the whole laws of moses, as a gentile the only law I understood was the law of conscience and I had moral excellence ,, why then do I need Christ

Jesus is a Messiah how??
are the Jews sacrifice still accepted to God?

if I have to keep the law perfectly then how is Christ a Messiah?

Life of a man is in the blood of a man not in the blood of an animal.

All the sacrifices of blood atonement performed by the Jews cannot save them.

As a gentile , you need Jesus Christ no matter your conscience , more so , your conscience can deceive you if it is ignorant of some facts. That is why God said " my people are perished for lack of knowledge".
How will your conscience tell you that your grand father was a murderer ? You father , if he is not a christian , will inherit that sin of his father , you will also inherit that sin .But your conscience will be clear that you have not committed murder.
As you inherit physical properties of your parents so you will inherit their spiritual properties , whether good or bad.
But with confession of Jesus as your lord and saviour :

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Jesus is a Messiah. A messiah is someone expected to save mankind from their bad situations.

The Jews sacrifices are not accepted to God since after death of Jesus on the cross.

You can keep the law perfectly but it cannot undo all the sins of your ancestors , especially that of Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 5:14-15 KJV
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

enilove:



Life of a man is in the blood of a man not in the blood of an animal.

All the sacrifices of blood atonement performed by the Jews cannot save them.

As a gentile , you need Jesus Christ no matter your conscience , more so , your conscience can deceive you if it is ignorant of some facts. That is why God said " my people are perished for lack of knowledge".
How will your conscience tell you that your grand father was a murderer ? You father , if he is not a christian , will inherit that sin of his father , you will also inherit that sin .But your conscience will be clear that you have not committed murder.
As you inherit physical properties of your parents so you will inherit their spiritual properties , whether good or bad.
But with confession of Jesus as your lord and saviour :

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Jesus is a Messiah. A messiah is someone expected to save mankind from their bad situations.

The Jews sacrifices are not accepted to God since after death of Jesus on the cross.

You can keep the law perfectly but it cannot undo all the sins of your ancestors , especially that of Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 5:14-15 KJV
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

thanks a lot
are you a jw!?

also are we saved by faith or works??

enilove:



Life of a man is in the blood of a man not in the blood of an animal.

All the sacrifices of blood atonement performed by the Jews cannot save them.

As a gentile , you need Jesus Christ no matter your conscience , more so , your conscience can deceive you if it is ignorant of some facts. That is why God said " my people are perished for lack of knowledge".
How will your conscience tell you that your grand father was a murderer ? You father , if he is not a christian , will inherit that sin of his father , you will also inherit that sin .But your conscience will be clear that you have not committed murder.
As you inherit physical properties of your parents so you will inherit their spiritual properties , whether good or bad.
But with confession of Jesus as your lord and saviour :

2 Corinthians 5:17-18 KJV
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Jesus is a Messiah. A messiah is someone expected to save mankind from their bad situations.

The Jews sacrifices are not accepted to God since after death of Jesus on the cross.

You can keep the law perfectly but it cannot undo all the sins of your ancestors , especially that of Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Romans 5:14-15 KJV
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

can we really keep the whole law perfectly? do you know the whole law includes the ceremonial laws

Ferisidowu:

thanks a lot
are you a jw!?

also are we saved by faith or works??

I am a Christian. I attend MFM and , at times if time is against me ,I attend Deeper Life.

We are saved by faith in the grace Jesus' death made available for us.

Ferisidowu:


can we really keep the whole law perfectly? do you know the whole law includes the ceremonial laws

Give me example of ceremonial laws

enilove:


I am a Christian. I attend MFM and , at times if time is against me ,I attend Deeper Life.

We are saved by faith in the grace Jesus' death made available for us.

thanks a lot God bless

enilove:


Give me example of ceremonial laws

circumcision , washing after mensuration , not eating certain meats , offering of lamb for sacrifice not eating with gentiles

the fact is that ceremonial civil and 10 commandments sum up to give you the LAW

Ferisidowu:

circumcision , washing after mensuration , not eating certain meats , offering of lamb for sacrifice not eating with gentiles

the fact is that ceremonial civil and 10 commandments sum up to give you the LAW

I have commented on this before that those ones are no longer necessary.

Part of the works of the Holy Spirit is to lead us to all truth. He would reveal those part of the laws to be kept and those not necessary.

enilove:


I have commented on this before that those ones are no longer necessary.

Part of the works of the Holy Spirit is to lead us to all truth. He would reveal those part of the laws to be kept and those not necessary.

but then the Bible says cursed is everyone who doesn't continue in the law .... so the holy spirit can't tell me to obey the law because its necessary to my salvation ...

I'm not saying we aren't to obey the law ...I'm saying even if I obey it perfectly (if it were possible) ... God won't justify me for that ...
if God will justify me for that ... Christ is dead in vain

Jesus never came to abolish d law but to fulfill it. Wen God asked Moses to build the tabernacle, he told him everything he was doing was gonna be symbolic of how it is done in heaven. God doesn't change and heaven hasn't. Jesus sacrifice was a transition from salvation via keeping the law to justification by faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ.. The Levitical priesthood was transferred from John the Baptist (who was the son of an High priest) to Jesus who is now our Highpriest and has made us kings and priest. This time around we are keeping the laws of God both ceremonial or moral by faith in Jesus. If a man is truly a follower of Christ, keeping the moral law would be natural and not a struggle

Ferisidowu:


but then the Bible says cursed is everyone who doesn't continue in the law .... so the holy spirit can't tell me to obey the law because its necessary to my salvation ...

I'm not saying we aren't to obey the law ...I'm saying even if I obey it perfectly (if it were possible) ... God won't justify me for that ...
if God will justify me for that ... Christ is dead in vain

I have answered this before.

enilove:


I have answered this before.

sorry I didn't see it just summarize it for me .. that's all and we call it a day

Ferisidowu:

sorry I didn't see it just summarize it for me .. that's all and we call it a day

We must keep all the laws except those relating to shedding of animal blood and ceremonial laws and believe in the grace of death of Jesus on the cross.

enilove:


We must keep all the laws except those relating to shedding of animal blood and ceremonial laws and believe in the grace of death of Jesus on the cross.

although am not satisfied or better still I don't understand .... should we leave this issue?

Ferisidowu:
although am not satisfied or better still I don't understand .... should we leave this issue?

What is your believe or opinion?

enilove:


What is your believe or opinion?

my believe is that *1 keeping the law doesn't justify me ..... am sure you agree to this ...

and if the law doesn't justify me, it's altogether useless for my salvation ...

if you claim that we are justified by God in grace through the blood of Jesus by faith and also say that I may not get to heaven (be justified) if I break one of the laws then you contradict yourself it becomes obvious that grace is no more grace and works is no more works rom 11;6

works is keeping the commandments its either I am justified by it or am justified by faith in Christ
it can't be both ...

you can't preach Jesus and the law ... that's why Paul rebuked the Galatians .... the law is meant for you to see your weaknesses and run to Jesus ....

works is not of faith .....

there are many sins we commit ignorantly e.g doing things that wrong our friends without us knowing it, condemning someone which ,James talks about , evil thoughts , using Christian liberty anyhow ... not bringing disciples , swearing in the court of law, little doubts , not obeying the word completely etc ....

Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."..

the law only gives me knowledge of sin

also
the law is not of faith either you live by the law ...
or you live by faith
gal 3:10-13

also

◄ 1 Timothy 1:9

New International Version
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

then it becomes obvious that for humans to have the law they themselves are wicked, vile , sinners

so is the law made for perfect men
as long as you keep looking at the law the more you affirm that the law is good , the more you testify that you are bad vile and wicked ...

but we knowing that we are wicked dropped the law and look unto Jesus... seeing that the law can't help us more than to condemn us ...

why should I hold unto what makes me a sinner , have you forgotten that where there is no law there is no transgression...??

Ferisidowu:

my believe is that *1 keeping the law doesn't justify me ..... am sure you agree to this ...

and if the law doesn't justify me, it's altogether useless for my salvation ...

if you claim that we are justified by God in grace through the blood of Jesus by faith and also say that I may not get to heaven (be justified) if I break one of the laws then you contradict yourself it becomes obvious that grace is no more grace and works is no more works rom 11;6

works is keeping the commandments its either I am justified by it or am justified by faith in Christ
it can't be both ...

you can't preach Jesus and the law ... that's why Paul rebuked the Galatians .... the law is meant for you to see your weaknesses and run to Jesus ....

works is not of faith .....

there are many sins we commit ignorantly e.g doing things that wrong our friends without us knowing it, condemning someone which ,James talks about , evil thoughts , using Christian liberty anyhow ... not bringing disciples , swearing in the court of law, little doubts , not obeying the word completely etc ....

Rom. 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED in his
sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."..

the law only gives me knowledge of sin

also
the law is not of faith either you live by the law ...
or you live by faith
gal 3:10-13

also

◄ 1 Timothy 1:9

New International Version
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

then it becomes obvious that for humans to have the law they themselves are wicked, vile , sinners

so is the law made for perfect men
as long as you keep looking at the law the more you affirm that the law is good , the more you testify that you are bad vile and wicked ...

but we knowing that we are wicked dropped the law and look unto Jesus... seeing that the law can't help us more than to condemn us ...

why should I hold unto what makes me a sinner , have you forgotten that where there is no law there is no transgression...??

How can you drop the law and look unto Jesus ?