Pastor Joagbaje is taking too many punches to the head and needs to throw in the towel. Where is tonye-tithe when you need him jo? Between Nuclear boy and Enigma this air + aerial assault on the wofers is bound to yield fruits especially for those who are willing to learn more about how most these guys have sort of created their own form that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

This one may be way better than the upcoming Floyd Mayweather vs Shane Mosley fight oooo!

>> Front row seat with popcorn in hand

Pastor Joagbaje:

Of course I sin and make mistakes and FYI, I do not see them as small mistakes. And I know how it is that I feel when my lusts get the better of my inner desire for God. It is you that claims you are righteous and not a sinner calling God liar when His Word says let God be true and all men liars. You it was that said Moses wasn't born again and so is subject to hellfire and that Robert Liardon is to be believed because he's born-again and thus by inference from your former definition, is sinless, righteous and teaching Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Elisha and the angels of God what righteousness is. I wonder what righteousness can be found in his bung-hole!

But now, you softpedal and change to "OT saints were redeemed by the blood of the LAMB". Which lamb? The one Alfa Sule killed for last Ileya or the one a car ran over in front of RCCG camp on the expressway last saturday? You also change to me sinning - so you do agree we are not righteous? But Jesus was, abi? Yet you say you and Jesus are on the same pedestal! consider the contradiction! Listen to yourself and see why people make fun of Christianity. You are ridiculing God when you make Him on no import but to hang around with running shoes on waiting to "sprint" in obeisance at your command.

Can't you see what you're doing? Moving the goalpost all over, changing belief as you go along and sounding pompous trying to assert an asinine yet comical superiority. Thank God others are reading.

Finally, what is a man of God? Did you ever read that WE ALL are a royal priesthood? Have you forgotten God is no respecter of persons? Who told you (prove it) that I do not have the same anointing before God or even higher than your age-mates who you worship/esteem as high priests (defined by what book aside ROR)? Do you think all of us have no skills, education or nothing else to use to make a living and thus, for fear of going hungry, follow men like us? For what else would make a man, sound in mind and body, follow this rot if not the allure of stolen waters and free cash and the delusion of eating his cake yet having it?

I, and anyone else who is a Christian (in deed as well as in talk) AM a man of God. When Paul rebuked Peter, why doesn;t the Bible tell us that he "mocked" or was "blaspheming"? Rubbish (your fear based doctrine) with the ingredients of nsala soup! Apostle Peter accepted correction without playing Holy! Those who talk "Christism" but bend naked before other men were spoken to by James when he said "Faith without works is dead". My life shows my faith. Their own words announce what you "think" is their faith. But their life reveals their true faith. Shifting goal posts in support of obvious errors for the sake of filthy lucre also shows a faith. In what? You decide using the Bible, Sir!

^^^^ I wonder for Joagbaje oooo!

@ Pasiiitor Joagbaje

OK let us try and spell out even more clearly than before the implications of some of the things you have been saying on this thread (and elsewhere too of course); obviously I have only made a selection to prove a point.

Being born again is an instatanous experience. The moment you confess the lordship of Christ by faith, you recieve the gift of eternal life. being born again is not a progressive experience at all.  The only progressive part is your growth which is the salvation of your soul. We may use the term "souls saved" in generic term but it is not precisely thesame. Man is a Spirit, he has a Soul and he lives in a Body.  The man get "born" or recreated in his spirit the moment he recieves Christ by confessing him as lord. Bu the salvayion of the soul which is growth and maturity is a continous process until Jesus come. The takes place by the agency of the word of God.

The lords prayer  was not taught to the Church. It was taught to people who had not been born again nor recieved the holyspirit. We can call their time intertestimental period. The lords prayer contains a formatt of great principles. We can not be reciting it as new creation. In Christ we pray by the holyghost.

A Sinner is a man under the dominion of sin. When a man gets born again, he ceases to be a sinner. Even if he makes a mistake, he is still a child of God . . . .  there is no mistake that a Christian will make that will make him a sinner. Because he is born into righteousness. Sin is. Nature and not conducts , righteousness is also a nature. A good behaviour will not make the sinner a Christian and a wrong action will not make the Christian a sinner.
Jesus came to give us eternal life. As we recieve this life , the old nature of sin is taken away.

Being born again goes beyond believing in God or in Christ. Being born again is as the word. "born" , birth.
Man is a spirit, he has a soul, he lives in a body.  The old testament folks worship God religiously, but God is not in religion , even though he allowed it and accepted it for the time being. God is a spirit and can only be fellowshiped with with our spirit. . . .

Man became spiritually dead at the fall of Adam. All the men that came before Christ were all dead in their spirit.This is actually the nature of sin. No matter how well they behaved, they were still sinners before God. So Adam o, Moses o, Elijah and all the prophets of old were dead in sin. . . .

To be born again is not just to believe in Jesus or believe in God . .Jesus was the first to be born of God. . . .

Being born again is more than moral up bringing and religiousity.He was the first to be born of God.The reason he had to come was to give us the life of God, . . .

The spiritual birth is an instatanous experience and not a process.From Adam to the last prophet, all were under the dominion of satan.

The moment a man recieves Christ , He become recreated in his spirit, he is born ane into God's kingdom .there is Kingdom shift. Instantly . . .

It is a participation in the kingdom life. Until a man recieves this life no matter how good ,or how much he confess sin, he cant function in the kingdom. . . .

A Christian has what all these OT folks never had. In Christ I am greater than they all!! . John was the greatest of all prophets because he had the opportunity to witness the messiah, But A christian is greater than john.

We have become like Christ because of the life now that is now in us and the nature of God. Eternal life is not about living forever but rather, its a quality of life.That is what a Christian is born with. . . .

This is in summary what it means to be born again. The righteousness and justification in Christ is not thesame as OT times. Theirs is measurable , ours is absolute.

Moses and all, They died in faith. But because of their fallen state which the blood of animals couldnt change, only the blood of Jesus could change the spiritual state of a man. They did not however become perfect. We are the ones that will bring perfection to them!

The early apostles belived in Christ but could not recieve the  holyghost until the got  born again. .Right now They only watch us now from the grandstand They are actualy learning from us, "how can God's life be in a man?"

The Patriachs of Old are only watching us from the grandstand. Infact they are learning from us about the life of Christ inside  a man.

Following my last post of quotations above (I've chosen to break the last post into two):


Thus (according to you Pasiitor Joagbaje):

1. When a person confesses Christ by faith he is instantaneously born again.

2. The person is born and recreated in his spirit that moment too.

3. This your "born again recreated/new creation person" is too big and superior to be praying the Lord's prayer!

4. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is no longer a sinner; the old nature of sin is taken away; there is nothing he can do that can make him a sinner

5. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is greater than all the Old Testament folk. He is greater than Adam, Moses, Elijah, John the baptist.

6. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is the one who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

7. The early apostles are actually learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person"!

8. The patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person".


The problem: below are three persons who meet your criteria of "born again new creation/recreated person" and obviously had/have your respect.

A. Roberts Liardon: you brought up his name and we pointed to his admitted homosexual affair and that he was "pastoring" a WoF "church at the time?

B. Ted Haggard: WoF very big even top shot who admitted homosexual affair and drug use

C. Paul Crouch: WoF top-shot and head of TBN who paid $425,000 (presumably from donations by his mugs "partners" to keep an alleged homosexual partner quiet.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" from whom the patriarchs are learning.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

Do you want to think about your WoF theology again. Perhaps WoF theology might just be a whole load of nonsense as we have been telling you?

Joagbaje:
. . .
Robert Liardon may have his short comings, I dont have a first hand information on this, But there is no Sin a christian commits that will make him cease to be a christian. If the man really commit homosexuality, he needs help. No child of God love to live in sin, But his sin did not stop him from being a child of God and , does not stop him from being a vessel of God. Except if he refuse to repent as you said he openly declared for homosexuality which I find hard to believe but if its true, his life must have been invaded by demons,  That does not negate any of  the works he had before. Solomon went into the sin of Idolatory,but we still read his books of proverbs today. We dont glory in a man's fall. Its a kindom of  love. If God is still using a man, if God has not given up in a man , who are we to condemn him.

Pasiitor Joagbaje, one further question (for now) based on your quote above and especially the highlighted.

So this your own "born again new creation/recreated person" can be invaded by demons? Despite the fact that his own spirit has been recreated?

Na waa for him o!

^^ And that is my problem with shifting goal posts etc.

Robert Liardon is born again, spirit filled, kingdom empowered. A fellow heir (infact same) as Jesus Christ, a "god" having dominion over all things especially the financial commitments of his congregation. Sinless (so much so he cannot be UNrighteous).
B U T
tiny meagre "man doing man" horrible demons (which Joagbaje and every other sinless Christian including Lawrence Agaba can cast out) invaded and took over his life (the life of Jesus's mate ) in effect, took over the life of Jesus, seeing as Jesus is same as "WOFers" who have faith! ? I suppose that means if Jesus takes a nap or turns His back, "Legion would pounce into Him.

Your problem is the grand pulpit which has allowed you preach "BShit" unhindered and unchallenged since the "mugus" just sit and are encouraged not to listen but to cheer and dance. Well, this is not a pulpit and here, you deal with "God renewed minds", not "CEC controlled mumus". It would be well you read all, sit down and decide to return to God.

Faith (the true type) is good. We all request for healing, prosperity, joy and do not wish bad health, pain or sorrow BUT God has the final say, not us. Our faith is simple: even in the valley of the shadow of death, we fear no evil, for we know God is with us, taking us to a destination we know not but He does and knowing His Will for us is for good. Whatever we face then, God be praised for good will come out of it.

nuclearboy:

^^ And that is my problem with shifting goal posts etc.

Ive not been shifting goal post at all . My posts have maintain a consistency. Except if I havent clarified some issues well enough

Robert Liardon is born again, spirit filled, kingdom empowered. A fellow heir (infact same) as Jesus Christ, a "god" having dominion over all things especially the financial commitments of his congregation. Sinless (so much so he cannot be UNrighteous).
B U T tiny meagre "man doing man" horrible demons (which Joagbaje and every other sinless Christian including Lawrence Agaba can cast out) invaded and took over his life (the life of Jesus's mate ) in effect, took over the life of Jesus, seeing as Jesus is same as "WOFers" who have faith! ? I suppose that means if Jesus takes a nap or turns His back, "Legion would pounce into Him. ???

I will appreciate if a new thread is opened for the issues youre raising up. I didint say demons can just jump on a christian. I was responding to Enigma,.Who said that the man openly declared himself Gay. There is difference between falling into sin and living in sin. If A christian will say "Hey, i'm gay" or "I am born a gay " He is definately invaded by demons. No child off God would talk that way.A christian has dominion over demons. But if he engages himself in certain activities and works of flesh , he may have himself opened to devils. There is difference between Demonic oppression , obsession and possesion. A christian can not be possesed of demons in his spirit because Christ dwells in his spirit. but he could have external attack in his thought realm . or his body which he an still deal with by himself or with a little help.

If Robert Liardon has asked God for forgiveness., He is no longer a homosexual, period!. But if he continues and jjustifies his action as normal , then there is a reason for concern.

Your problem is the grand pulpit which has allowed you preach "BShit" unhindered and unchallenged since the "mugus" just sit and are encouraged not to listen but to cheer and dance. Well, this is not a pulpit and here, you deal with "God renewed minds", not "CEC controlled mumus". It would be well you read all, sit down and decide to return to God.

You could call Sons of God "mumus" It only reveals your shallow understanding of truth.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Enigma:

Pasiitor Joagbaje, one further question (for now) based on your quote above and especially the highlighted.

So this your own "born again new creation/recreated person" can be invaded by demons? Despite the fact that his own spirit has been recreated?

Na waa for him o!

Demonic Oppression and Obssesion takes place in the body or in the mind, Demonic posession takes place in the spirit. A christian is recreated in his spirit. Satan cant have posession of his spirit because Christ dwells there.
Demons dont jump on a christian , but the christian can create room for them by sin.

Ephes. 4:27
Neither give place to the devil.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

THIS ROBERT LIARDON THING

1 Cor. 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

I wonder why it is that some of us rejoice at the failures or fall of other christians.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

A Christian may suffer certain attacks, That doesnt make him a sinner. Others ought to help him and not to destroy him. And whatever his fault is has nothing to do with The move of God in his life. There is no sin God cant forgive a christian. If he acknowledge his error and repented, he is forgiven as though he never sinned.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The question is : Did Liardon acknowledge his sin ? Yes Is Liardon still into homosextuality? No . So what business has any body to raise up issues God has forgotten?

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Im also aware from my google that the man went to the extent of taking break from his ministry and submitting himself for counselling.

Here is one of the articles.

Pentecostal dynamo Roberts Liardon preached at his church after three months of counseling following a gay sexual affair with the church's youth pastor. The 36-year-old founder of the Embassy Christian Center in Irvine, California, told his congregation: "I am still working with my counseling." Most letters on the matter, printed in Charisma magazine, are supportive of Liardon. For example, one reader writes: "Roberts has done a great work for the Lord. That is why the warfare against him is so fierce." Another writes: "I have always loved and admired Roberts Liardon, and I still do. , I believe he is making things right with God." Another writes: "We all have areas of the flesh to deal with. It strengthens me to see how Liardon is willing to deal with his problems."
[/qoute]

Enigma:

Following my last post of quotations above (I've chosen to break the last post into two):


Thus (according to you Pasiitor Joagbaje):

1. When a person confesses Christ by faith he is instantaneously born again.

2. The person is born and recreated in his spirit that moment too.

3. This your "born again recreated/new creation person" is too big and superior to be praying the Lord's prayer!

4. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is no longer a sinner; the old nature of sin is taken away; there is nothing he can do that can make him a sinner

5. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is greater than all the Old Testament folk. He is greater than Adam, Moses, Elijah, John the baptist.

6. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is the one who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

7. The early apostles are actually learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person"!

8. The patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person".

You are correct Thats what the bible says , except for your over exegerations.

The problem: below are three persons who meet your criteria of "born again new creation/recreated person" and obviously had/have your respect.

A. Roberts Liardon: you brought up his name and we pointed to his admitted homosexual affair and that he was "pastoring" a WoF "church at the time?

B. Ted Haggard: WoF very big even top shot who admitted homosexual affair and drug use

C. Paul Crouch: WoF top-shot and head of TBN who paid $425,000 (presumably from donations by his mugs "partners" to keep an alleged homosexual partner quiet.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" from whom the patriarchs are learning.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

Do you want to think about your WoF theology again. Perhaps WoF theology might just be a whole load of nonsense as we have been telling you?

I dont what you mean by they having my respect. I cant speak for another man. I dont know them. i.e what they believe.

Galatians 6:5
For every man shall bear his own burden.

You may ask me about me or my pastor and that is if theres is any need of that .
There is no such thing as Wof doctrines. Lets deal with topics according to scritures. Word of faith is the confession of faith through our mouth. whoever doesnt understand that is a baby christian .

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Word of faith simply has to do with power of our spoken words. It is funny how you guys labbel anything you dont understand or agree with as wof doctrine. its funny!

Im not aware of these unfounded allegations against these people and I dont think i need to start searching on them . I am not them. We shouldnt be picking holes in christian lives , You have your own flaws , sin is sin. Malice and unforgiveness are more deadly than fornication and homosexuality. Spiritual sins are deadlier that the physical ones. So lets discuss issues that edify.

@ Enigma

THE FORCE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
The fact that a Christian sin doesnt make him a sinner. it does not change his nature and hasnt lost his salvation. He is still the righteousness of God despite his mistakes.

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Sin of a Christian does not make God deny him as a father, rather God wants to get him out of the mess.The blood of Jesus paid for sin . past ,present and future.

Because the spirit of God is in us, when we do wrong , our conscience condemn us , we repent and move on. That is why a Christian need strong meat. so that he can grow to maturity and recognise his ddominion over sin. The more he grows , the less mistakes he makes. When he realises that he is one spirit with Christ. God Is Love. I am love also. love is the height of all spirituall knowledge. The more i medidtate on it , the more i walk in love. It becomes dificult for me to hate, steal, cheat , criticise and gossip etc. as i fellowship with God. I get more transformed.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is why we go to church , that is reason for devotional daily. we renew our minds . As we behold scriptures , we are changed
.
2 Cor. 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

nuclearboy:

Pastor Joagbaje:

Of course I sin and make mistakes and FYI, I do not see them as small mistakes. And I know how it is that I feel when my lusts get the better of my inner desire for God. It is you that claims you are righteous and not a sinner calling God liar when His Word says let God be true and all men liars. You it was that said Moses wasn't born again and so is subject to hellfire and that Robert Liardon is to be believed because he's born-again and thus by inference from your former definition, is sinless, righteous and teaching Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Elisha and the angels of God what righteousness is. I wonder what righteousness can be found in his bung-hole!

Its either you dont understand me or you deliberately misquote me. I never said Moses was subject to hell fire. It is not fair when we twist post this way. Of course , OT folks were not born again. Jesus was the first man to be born of God and the born again Christians came after him. The OT folks were saved but they didnt have this life of God in them. That was why the holy spirit could dwell in them . They didnt have the union we have in christ . We have the divine nature of God in us which they could not recieve. It is a new thing to them . God kept it secret.Isreal should have receieved it but it came to the gentiles at the rejection of Christ. We are in Christ kingdom now. Its like a political party that is campaingning. Our Kingdom will fully manifest physically, at the millenial reign of christ.

1 Thes. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the[b] dead in Christ shall rise first[/b]:

Why is it that only the dead in christ that will rise first. This is the kingdom of heaven headed by Christ. The rest of the righteous dead have not entered this kingdom yet . even though they are in the Jingdom of God. Their own will take place after our 1,000 years reign physically ont his earth. that is when the rest of the dead will rise.

Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

That is the reason for two judgements. Theres is a judgement seat of Christ and the white throne judgement. The Judgmene seat of Christ is the first one after rapture. It is stricltly for those who are in his kigdom of heaven ( Christians only) where Jesus judge usaccording to our works on this earth. Those of us that have done well will recieve crown of rulership and we will reign with him as administrators and kings in his political government on the earth for 1,000 years

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Ater the 1,000 years or millenial reign Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God, After we have put down all rebellion in the final battle against evil. The kingdom of christ or the kingdom of heaven will be divered into the kingdom of God. This is where the OT folks Joins us.God will reign over all.

The finall resurrection will take place.and the final judgement by God himself will take place.

Rev. 20:11-21:1
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
[21:1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


So you can see , there is distinction between us and OT folks , we dont even have thesame resurrection to start with.There are different orders, according to level of superiority. Christ first , we second , then others in different generations.
1 Cor. 15:21-24
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

@ Pasiitor Joagbaje

You are still playing the same broken record.  Worse than that you are playing tricks with yourself.

Liardon, Haggard and Crouch all meet your criteria of the born again man with the superhuman complex, yet we have shown you that by their activity they are far from this your "superhuman" person that you proclaim with your WoF "born again"; now you turn round and deny them ------ simply so as not to face up to the truth that your "superhuman born again" man complex/idea is a lie and a bankrupt sham.

OK, let me play along with you for a while and leave aside Liardon/Haggard/Crouch even though you have actually esteemed two of the three on this board.

Let us take your own "god" Oyakhilome. Is Oyakhilome as your "born again recreated/new creation person"

1. greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o?

2. a person who will bring perfection to Moses and all?

3. a person the early apostles are actually learning from?

4. a person the patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from?

Enigma,
I didint write the bible , Read it for yourself. and stop asking funny question

Hebrews 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that[b] they without us should not be made perfect[/b].

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding[b] he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.[/b]

Read my recent posts again carefully . Dont be in a rush to write. Dont make me feel im wasting my time.

Joagbaje:

Clicked reply only to see this your recent post. Did you ever consider that those alluded to by Jesus as being in the kingdom of heaven might "be already there" and that we AND John the Baptist will join them at the same time - after judgement? Your penchant for assuming you are right is disturbing

Back to my post:

I'm searching for a way to not sound scornful or judgemental for I susupect thats what you see. However, I'm only finding it ridiculous that someone with your diction and communication skills can believe this "travesty" of reason. It makes me believe you have a vested interest  which usually translate to "that is where your wealth is stored up".

You say you cannot speak for any other man. Then you say we could ask about your pastor! Is he not a man? And when did you become God to know his motives and mind?

You say Liardon is no longer homosexual "IF" he has asked God for forgiveness. Please does this apply to him continuing in the "kingdom of homosexuality"? BTW, did you ever consider that for all we know, he may have been involved with this all the while he wrote "God's Generals". Do you believe in the end justifying the means at any cost?

Don't make this "emotional" - I have no kerchiefs! you can check Proverbs for the definition of "fool"or see it expounded well at https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-434436.160.html#msg5966873. In contrast to those definitions, I called majority of your "audiences" MUMUS. That (and I know you know) translates to gullible, naive, trusting NOT FOOLS. Pastor, is lying a virtue?

Did you re-consider before stating openly that Christians are re-created in their spirits and demonic possession etc is in the body or mind? Do you realise that means Robert Liardon's Spirit is for Heaven whist body etc is condemned? Why stop sin then, Pastor, since all of that is physical and it is only the spirit that matters? I told you, this is not the pulpit. And now we see why Ikeja love-peddlers enjoy CE. No conviction of sin, just dancing, merriment and rejoicing in sinfulness.

I never attacked Robert Liardon. Sad story and I pray he's truly found God again - but have you considered the level of deceit before he was found out? If he wasn't found out, you'd be hammering it at us that he is a "god". I just want you to realise the same can apply to Oyakilome tomorrow. He's just a man! Its you guys that say "No, we are clean and gods". Thats why that was thrown before you!

And here you say again that sin doesn;t make a Christian a sinner! What then makes him a sinner? Was the Bible lying when it said "Let God be true and every man a Liar"? Abi liars are righteous? What are you doing, sir? Can't you see this is delusion trying to make yourself what you are not?

Finally, the "dead in Christ shall rise first". True, it says so! But let me ask you sir, was it Moses' dead body and Elijah's dead body that appeared at the transfiguration? Are they dead or in Glory NOW? Categorical sweeping declarations are what we know what we call "WOFers" for. Most are misleading is the problem and they affect God's children.

Do you know what you're doing? exactly what the RCC did when it restricted access to the Bible for centuries and rather, preferred to issue its own canons and doctrines. You are interpreting God's Word. There is danger in that for the Word says "the scripture is not for any PRIVATE interpretation".

BTW, I apologise for infering you said Moses was slated for Hellfire. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of " ". Thats why I basically helped you finish what you started but now have come to see as a travesty!

@ Joagbaje

I'm sorry that it is difficult to say the following without seeming to insult you. Anyway, in your case your comprehension is poor and you are, personally, easily led into error by the deceivers because of this.

Joagbaje:

Enigma,
I didint write the bible , Read it for yourself. and stop asking funny question

Hebrews 11:39-40
    And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that[b] they without us should not be made perfect[/b].

Let me set you a small scenario: you want to have a party in Yenagoa because it's your 50th birthday; your son is in America and he says he will show up on the day; in your mind you earnestly desire to have him there; in a way if he does not show up your joy is not "perfect" --- unless and until he shows up.

Now if you have sense you will go back and read Hebrews 11 carefully instead of making a fool of yourself (demonstrating poor comprehension repeatedly) and showing how you are easily fooled by very fleshly motivated people like Oyaks etc 

Joagbaje:

Matthew 11:11
    Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding[b] he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.[/b]

Read my recent posts again carefully . Dont be in a rush to write. Dont make me feel im wasting my time. 

Indeed, if we were thinking of you alone, we are wasting our time responding to you. However, it is important that we combat the doctrine of erroneous and false teachers like you. This your nonsense about John the baptist, I already explained to you (I think on page 1 of this thread); but your prideful and arrogant flesh keeps your eyes and mind blind, your heart hardened and you refuse to seek out the truth.

Yeah tell me about it, you and opaks Oyaks are greater than John the baptist ----- the very one who baptised the Lord Jesus Christ. Go and read my explanation of the context of saying the least in the kingdom of God (which you are not yet in in the proper sense and only until then) is greater than John as a man.

But of course you and opaks Oyaks are also greater than Moses and Elijah who were at the transfiguration (as I keep repeating); in fact I've just seen nuclearboy's post on the point and yes ----- indeed I guess you and opaks already have your glorified bodies and will arrange for us to see you recreate events similar to the transfiguration soon. Bunch of unrepentant flesh-motivated (in fact unspiritual) heretics, the lot of you.

^^^ I can only imagine pastor Joagbaje now fuming " no he didn't"

Great job Enigma, people should really look hard at the "wofers" and what they're capable of turning Christianity into.

nuclearboy:

Joagbaje:

Clicked reply only to see this your recent post. Did you ever consider that those alluded to by Jesus as being in the kingdom of heaven might "be already there" and that we AND John the Baptist will join them at the same time - after judgement? Your penchant for assuming you are right is disturbing

I dont know if i fully got your points clear. But about the kingdom of heaven, This is one of the reason i didnt want to go into it because few occasions the have been interchangably used but if compared with body of truth , you will understand there is difference.

Back to my post:
I'm searching for a way to not sound scornful or judgemental for I susupect thats what you see. However, I'm only finding it ridiculous that someone with your diction and communication skills can believe this "travesty" of reason. It makes me believe you have a vested interest  which usually translate to "that is where your wealth is stored up".

You say you cannot speak for any other man. Then you say we could ask about your pastor! Is he not a man? And when did you become God to know his motives and mind?

This is Simple , I know what truth pastor Chris teaches, So doctrinal wise , i may be able to explain or clarify some things of course I may not know his motives except the ones he explains in his teachings.

You say Liardon is no longer homosexual "IF" he has asked God for forgiveness. Please does this apply to him continuing in the "kingdom of homosexuality"? BTW, did you ever consider that for all we know, he may have been involved with this all the while he wrote "God's Generals". Do you believe in the end justifying the means at any cost?

I dont know what you mean by "continuing in the kingdom of homosexuality" Does anything like that exist?

Did you re-consider before stating openly that Christians are re-created in their spirits and demonic possession etc is in the body or mind? Do you realise that means Robert Liardon's Spirit is for Heaven whist body etc is condemned? Why stop sin then, Pastor, since all of that is physical and it is only the spirit that matters? I told you, this is not the pulpit. And now we see why Ikeja love-peddlers enjoy CE. No conviction of sin, just dancing, merriment and rejoicing in sinfulness.

You easily jump into conclussion sometimes. What you wrote did not show you understood my post at all. Who says all is physical. I said as a man matures , he grows out of these sins and mistake. stop twisting my post. please read the 3 more times without your biases. Because youare beginning to fill up what i didnt say. I even said certain sins are more deadly than homosexuality. So why are you giving the impression im encouraging people to sin.

I never attacked Robert Liardon. Sad story and I pray he's truly found God again - but have you considered the level of deceit before he was found out? If he wasn't found out, you'd be hammering it at us that he is a "god". I just want you to realise the same can apply to Oyakilome tomorrow. He's just a man! Its you guys that say "No, we are clean and gods". Thats why that was thrown before you!

Either Robert sinned or not , he is still a Child of God. Are you a child of God? havent you sinned? So why are you on the case of another.

And here you say again that sin doesn;t make a Christian a sinner! What then makes him a sinner? Was the Bible lying when it said "Let God be true and every man a Liar"? Abi liars are righteous? What are you doing, sir? Can't you see this is delusion trying to make yourself what you are not?

It is not a man's wrong doing that made him a sinner. But Adam's. Thesame way, It is not a man's good works that get him saved or justified but Christ (2nd Adam)

Finally, the "dead in Christ shall rise first". True, it says so! But let me ask you sir, was it Moses' dead body and Elijah's dead body that appeared at the transfiguration? Are they dead or in Glory NOW? Categorical sweeping declarations are what we know what we call "WOFers" for. Most are misleading is the problem and they affect God's children.

Do you know what you're doing? exactly what the RCC did when it restricted access to the Bible for centuries and rather, preferred to issue its own canons and doctrines. You are interpreting God's Word. There is danger in that for the Word says "the scripture is not for any PRIVATE interpretation".

Elijah was caught up bodily to heaven but for Moses, Their had been series of debate by bible scholars if he died,or was caught up to heaven like Elijah, Some also alleged that it was his spirit satan came for and not his body and that he was taken to heaven . Well whatever the case we no that there is mystery about Moses death. I dont have details on this maybe i will further study.

BTW, I apologise for infering you said Moses was slated for Hellfire. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of " ". Thats why I basically helped you finish what you started but now have come to see as a travesty!

My advise is , Just discuss topic and avoid insults.

Ephes. 4:26
   Be ye angry, and sin not:  

Joagbaje:

Either Robert sinned or not , he is still a Child of God. Are you a child of God? havent you sinned? So why are you on the case of another.

"See your life outside"    You see yourself and your chicanery.

OK if he is a child of God; that means he is born-again right; so he only has to ask for forgiveness and he is unlike those not born again who are "dead in their sin" and cannot get forgiveness, right? (all these according to your WoF theology)

OK as Roberts Liardon is a born-again man who can get forgiveness because he is born again, is he, like you and opaks Oyaks,

1. greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o?

2. a person who will bring perfection to Moses and all?

3. a person the early apostles are actually learning from?

4. a person the patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from?

@Joagbaje

I often ignore quite a lot of nonsense in your posts because dealing with all of them will probably take an eternity. But just for an example I want to pick a very recent one.

Joagbaje:

Why is it that only the dead in christ that will rise first.  This is the kingdom of heaven headed by Christ. The rest of the righteous dead have not entered this kingdom yet . even though they are in the Jingdom of God. Their own will take place after our 1,000 years reign physically ont his earth. that is when the rest of the dead will rise. . . .

Ater the 1,000 years or millenial reign Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God, After we have put down all rebellion in the final battle against evil. The kingdom of christ or the kingdom of heaven will be divered into the kingdom of God. This is where the OT folks Joins us.God will reign over all. . . .

The finall resurrection will take place.and the final judgement by God himself will take place. . . .

So you can see , there is distinction between us and OT folks , we dont even have thesame resurrection to start with.There are different orders, according to level of superiority. Christ first , we second , then others in different generations.

How about the OT folk in the passage below then? You want to square your theology with that?

Matthew 27
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Edited

OK if he is a child of God; that means he is born-again right; so he only has to ask for forgiveness and he is unlike those not born again who are "dead in their sin" and cannot get forgiveness, right? (all these according to your WoF theology)

OK as Roberts Liardon is a born-again man who can get forgiveness because he is born again, is he, like you and opaks Oyaks,

Now thats a quote from one of Enigma's post.
Mr. Enigma its Amazing how that you'r all fluent in analytically enumerating the supposed "mistake" of people like Richard Liardon, Paul Crouch etc, but perhaps you haven't read the words of Romans 14:4 "Who are you that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standsth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for GOD IS ABLE TO MAKE HIM STAND".

The christian in view of making a "mistake" cannot be summoned up and tagged to be a sinner, infact thats a grievious insult becos its a discredit to the reality of the God nature in him by the Holy Spirit. l think the problem with alot of people (amonst whom l presume mr. Enigma and a host of his supporters are chief ) don't yet understand the very nature of the heart of Father God.

Nobody said that the christian is not liable to make a mistake, little wonder why the apostle paul said in Eph 4:11 that we have been given APOSTLE;, PROPHETS; EVANGELISTS; PASTORS AND TEACHERS FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.

1 john 2:1 "My little children, these things write l unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

mr. enigma shall we begin to count your "sins", well don't be sorry it won't be necessary am not that unprofitable business

@ newmi

OK, I have already "accepted" (or at least I am "agreeing" now) that Liardon, Haggard and Crouch are not sinners.

My question is a much simpler one (and I hope with this post it will be yet simple enough for you and your fellow CEC members/WoFers to understand).

Are Liardon, Roberts, Crouch (who are not sinners because they are "born again" and forgiven) greater than Elijah, Moses, Abraham and John the baptist?

Additionally, are Moses, Elijah etc learning from Liardon, Haggard and Crouch?

Additionally, are Moses, Elijah etc made perfect by Liardon, Haggard and Crouch?

Again, remember that I have "agreed" with you that Liardon, Haggard and Crouch are not sinners.

Are the questions simple enough for you (and other CEC members WoFers) now?

phil 3:13
i count not myself to have aprehended,but this one thing i do,forgetting those thing wich are behind and reaching out to those things which are before.

sin is a nature,the same with rigtheousness, being born again is istantanious no matter what any one thinks,when a man is born again he has new nature,just like dogs dont talk but bark,so does a christain not comit sin.because he has a differnt nature.so what happens when he does something outside his nature,all he need is as the father for forgiveness thats all,jesus christ had paid for the the past present and future sin of everyone all a man needs is to key into it,by acceptihing jesus into his life.what ever it is,is in the past,right now what matters is pressing on to those things which are ahead.
more over being born again only starts a life partern there is more after a man is born again,more responsibilitie an plenty to enjoy
hebrews 11:1-40
this place talked about how great men had tremendious result through faith.but in the 39 and 40th verse,it talks about how having obtained such good report through fait did not receive the promise that has been given to us,and also without us they should not not be made perfect.a born again christ christain isthe perfect all this great men of god seek.

@ enigma
hebrews 11:39-40
specificaly said that both sarah noah moses name that,that having obtained a good report,throught faith received not the promise,verse 40 says that GOD HAVING PROVIDE A BEETER THING FOR US,that htey without us SHOULD NOT be made perfect.sefeniiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
and if you are born again enigma they will be learning from you too

Biox:

@ enigma
hebrews 11:39-40
specificaly said that both sarah noah moses name that,that having obtained a good report,throught faith received not the promise,verse 40 says that GOD HAVING PROVIDE A BEETER THING FOR US,that htey without us SHOULD NOT be made perfect.sefeniiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
and if you are born again enigma they will be learning from you too

If you want to answer my questions, please answer them; they are only two posts or so above!

Biox:

@ enigma
hebrews 11:39-40
specificaly said that both sarah noah moses name that,that having obtained a good report,throught faith received not the promise,

Hang on ... but what was the 'promise'?

1 john2:2
and he is the propitiation for our sins,and not of ours only,but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 j0hn 5:9-12
this is what so many men of old long for,they talk about they wished for it but didnt expirience it.but now its manifest to us,for them its is a mistery but for usits a reality.( little wonder the bible says christ in you,the hope of glory)like i said there is more to life after a man is born again

Biox:

1 john2:2
and he is the propitiation for our sins,and not of ours only,but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 j0hn 5:9-12
this is what so many men of old long for,they talk about they wished for it but didnt expirience it.but now its manifest to us,for them its is a mistery but for usits a reality.( little wonder the bible says christ in you,the hope of glory)like i said there is more to life after a man is born again

^^
Should I take those verses as your answer to the question: "what was the 'promise'?" in Hebrews 11:39-40? There is a reason I'm asking this, please indulge me. Thanks.

viaro:

^^
Should I take those verses as your answer to the question: "what was the 'promise'?" in Hebrews 11:39-40? There is a reason I'm asking this, please indulge me. Thanks.

Alright, let me share some of the reasons why I was asking that question.

We find the interesting verse - "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39) - and in quoting that verse, some believe therefore that Christians are somewhat superhuman beings who are supposed to be 'teaching' the OT saints.

However, for me, it is important that people who quote Heb. 11:39 for such ideas need first to identify what is meant by "the promise" in that verse - especially when in that same chapter (Hebrews 11), we learn that some of the OT saints actually received promises. Check the following -

1. "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son," (verse 17)

2. "Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions," (verse 33).

So, because these two verses are certain of the fact that some of the OT saints actually received or obtained "promises", it would be important to identify the particular "promise" that they did NOT receive as in verse 13 and 39.

There - those are some of the reasons why I asked that question of you earlier. I will appreciate your reply. Thanks again.

@ enigma
the answer to your questions,i dont have up hand info about hargard and liardon right now,but if this folks are born again then yes elijah is learning from them and is made perfect by them

@viaro
no that wasnt my answer, this is my answer the promise is the promise of his son,the death burial and resurection,and the life after.
those promisies youmensioned are not the promisies i am talking of.so many other promiesies were to the men of old.but not the kind that came through the coming of jesus

@viaro
did you read verse 13 and 39, i think you should

Enigma:

@ newmi

OK, I have already "accepted" (or at least I am "agreeing" now) that Liardon, Haggard and Crouch are not sinners.

My question is a much simpler one (and I hope with this post it will be yet simple enough for you and your fellow CEC members/WoFers to understand).

Are Liardon, Roberts, Crouch (who are not sinners because they are "born again" and forgiven) greater than Elijah, Moses, Abraham and John the baptist?

Additionally, are Moses, Elijah etc learning from Liardon, Haggard and Crouch?

Additionally, are Moses, Elijah etc made perfect by Liardon, Haggard and Crouch?

Again, remember that I have "agreed" with you that Liardon, Haggard and Crouch are not sinners.

Are the questions simple enough for you (and other CEC members WoFers) now?

Now am immensely humbled that you'r gracious enough to find a place of concord with all that l said at least its better than just aguing coz l strongly believe like me you as well as the rest of the members of this forum are not in anyway so less busy that they don't know what better ways to invest their time (which is a gift of trust) other than to lavishly expend it on fruitless attempts and efforts to convince others which most times ends in mild insults and ugly aguements. tanx

Firstly, the individuals whose names you have higlighted above are individuals who in their own rights are "working out their own salvation, with all fear and trembling, " and for the most part, salvation is personal. But l think what you should rather bring in view is the "New Creation". The New creation was God's secret plan such that Holy men of God and prophets some of which youn have listed above spoke about as they where moved by God's Spirit (2 peter 1:21- For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost)

the questin of the new creation being superior to all the prophets of the O.T. is not to any discredit or ignorminy to them rather its a plus credited to them as a crowning glory for all their effort and labour. Now Hebrews 11 will be of ultermost interest for the most fact becoz it highlights with pride to all of us in the body of Christ the successful "faith-walk" of those on whose shoulders we are built (", we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets and Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, ", now Heb 11:39-40 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith[i], received not the promise:[/i] God having provided some[i] BETTER THINGS FOR US, that they without us should not be made perfect[/i]

tanx