Enigma:

Until you deal with Jesus' words about a person has to be born again to be in God's kingdom and that people will sit with Abraham in God's kingdom, nothing you have to say is worth thinking about.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

John 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

i hiss in satanic. . . .!

Image123:

Thank God I got born again before reading this thread.
Jesus! Even St. Peter would not understand some of these 'scholarship'

Form and Definition: Necessities of the Christian Faith

Vital to the life of the Christian is the need to know, understand and articulate the truths they believe. In this Postmodern age in which we live, the growing lawlessness of society has infiltrated the Church, either through Antinomianism or Heterodoxy, seemingly clothed in the garbs of Orthodoxy.

Of a truth, not all that is written in the Bible is doctrine; but in the same fashion, not all that is outside of the Bible is a danger to faith. It is important that modern day believers think critically about their faith and the underlying foundations upon which it is built. The Digital Age in which we live has become one of the darkest hours in Church History (and by extension the World History) with more biblical illiteracy and (resurrected) false doctrine than ever before.

Commonly overlooked is the fact that our worship is a reflection of our beliefs. If we listen to religious music with doctrinally shallow or unbiblical lyrics, it reflects our shallow or unbiblical understanding of God (and reinforces it). One cannot worship what one does not know and one’s worship is only limited by the knowledge of the object of one’s worship. Not just for ourselves - but for the generation ahead of us, Scripture calls us to mature in faith and grow in grace. We can learn such from the memorable rebuke given by the author of the book of Hebrews to his dispirited audience:

“About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil”. – Hebrews 5:11-14

There is no way to escape the fact that Christianity has always had a distinguishable and consistent form and definition. The Church is called the Pillar and Buttress of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and whenever professing Christians take lightly or disregard the form and definition of the historic Christian, faith they are casting aside their birthright as being the salt and light of the earth as well. It is imperative that we do not move the ancient landmarks set by our forefathers (Proverbs 22:28), but that we look back at them so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past and continue to avoid the pitfalls that they eluded by God’s grace.

Tradition, Liturgy and Religion have been words frowned upon by many modern Protestants, however Tradition, Liturgy and Religion have all been clearly defined words used by the saints that have gone before us. The Bible does not condemn all forms of tradition; however our traditions should not overthrow the authority of Scripture but should be firmly rooted in what the Bible clearly teaches and point us back to Scripture. Innovation and spontaneity are not biblical yardsticks for godliness or evidences of true spirituality. Furthermore it is beneficial for us to examine how past tradition has benefited the saints that have gone before us and why we should or should not abandon it.

In the attempt to seem separate from the varying belief systems in the world, many professing Christians have claimed that Christianity is not a religion, however by proper definition it is.; however if religion can be defined as a strong belief in a deity and a defined institution in which one expresses devotion to that deity, then Christianity can be accurately defined as a religion. Biblical Christianity operates by a system, a divine order by which its inherent nature consists. Oh how sad it is when a church operates on a theologically shallow statements of faith! They leave the door wide open for all kinds of imaginable errors!

Some argue that Christianity is about relationship, one with the triune God of the Scriptures. However, any relationship that is vertical in nature, with special reference to a deity makes it more than just a relationship. In attempts to escape the banner of “religion” or “tradition” often times people make traditions of their untraditional approaches to spirituality and religions of their non-religious activities.

Without such order, Christianity would have no form or definition. Regardless of the popular opinion that “God moves in spite of” – we cannot elude the fact that God has a distinguishable personality, particular preferences and clear means by which he operates. It is naive for us to think that God is only concerned about the transmission of His message and not the people who proclaim or hear the message. We cannot use God’s sovereignty and providence to allow us to be lax or negligent in our approach to matters of faith. It has been said:

“The type of religion which rejoices in the pious sound of traditional phrases, regardless of their meanings, or shrinks from “controversial” matters, will never stand amid the shocks of life. In the sphere of religion, as in other spheres, the things about which men are agreed are apt to be the things that are least worth holding; the really important things are the things about which men will fight”. - (J. Gresham Machen, Christianity & Liberalism, 1923)

Christians of today must be mindful not to misrepresent Christianity as a subjective, self-serving, existential journey into epistemological oblivion. There is order, structure and from to the tenets of the Christian faith. Attitudes that cast shadows of doubt upon or made light of the objective tenets of the Christian faith were rejected by the saints of the past; observe the following quote from the 6th article of the second section (of Negative Theses) on Free Will in the Epitome of the Formula of Concord:

"Also, we reject and condemn the error of the Enthusiasts, who imagine that God without means, without the hearing of God's Word, also without the use of the holy Sacraments, draws men to Himself, and enlightens, justifies, and saves them. (Enthusiasts we call those who expect the heavenly illumination of the Spirit [celestial revelations] without the preaching of God's Word.)”

Even today, there are many who go to Church, concerts or special conventions and expect a “move of God” without sound biblical preaching or teaching. In fact, a “move of God” in many churches today is defined by a seemingly hyper-spiritual, emotional ordeal with high-energy music, in which they expect to see people to be rolling on the floor, shivering, talking in “tongues”, engaged in holy laughter, ecstatic dance, spontaneous prophecy and all the other unbiblical phenomena associated with the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement. The Church should not practice or preach things that are not biblically defined, anti-intellectual and detract from the sober-mindedness believers must possess to operate in a godly fashion.

We must use Christian doctrine in accordance with the purpose in which it was created – to be adhered to, for our edification and benefit; to reprove us and instruct us in the ways of righteousness; to tell us more about the creator of the universe is. As the scripture tells us in Psalm 11:3 “…if the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?” - truly indeed what can we do if we do away with the foundations of our faith and the history in which it is so deeply intertwined?

When a glass is broken, it no longer holds the volume of liquid it was intended to and it becomes a danger due to its change in form. It would be careless to put oneself at the risk of physical harm by drinking from a severely broken glass. Even if the glass has been cracked, it would only be matter of time before it eventually falls apart. In the same fashion, deconstructing, arbitrarily fragmenting and breaking the unity of the precious doctrines of the Christian faith is also a grave danger to those to take away and add to the holy faith once delivered unto the saints for all time. Just as a glass is delicate and defined, so we must handle eternal truths with great care.

Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. – Proverbs 30:5-6

Ok sir. . .let's continue on our discussion.

InesQor:

@aletheia: Thanks for that diagram sir, and the explanation. THAT is exactly what I have been trying to explain to Joagbaje.
@Ogaga4luv: Don't be a pest, bro. We are having a discussion here.

The Holy Spirit: Old Testament and Today by R. C. Sproul

What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?

The role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was not principally different from the role of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament. While there are some differences, there's an essential unity between the two Testaments.

The Holy Spirit was active in many ways in Old Testament times. First and foremost was the Trinity's part of the work of
creation. In the act of creation itself, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit were all involved. The Spirit brooded over the
water and brought order and structure out of the yet unordered universe that we find in the opening chapters of Genesis.
People were regenerated in the Old Testament just as they are regenerated in the New Testament, and the one cannot
be regenerated except through the influence of God the Holy Spirit. David needed the regeneration power of God just as
much as the apostle Paul needed it in the New Testament.

We also know that the Spirit was very active charismatically; that is, by gifting certain people in the Old Testament and
equipping them for specific tasks. For example, the king of Israel was anointed with oil, symbolizing his being anointed by
the Holy Spirit to be empowered to carry out his vocation in a godly way. The same was true of priests. The prophets of
Israel, who were agents of revelation, were inspired by God the Holy Spirit and equipped to be the messengers of God to
the people and to give us sacred Scripture in the same basic manner that the apostles in the New Testament were so
endowed and superintended by the Holy Spirit. So we see that the Spirit was active -- regenerating, sanctifying,
preserving, interceding for -- doing all of those things in the Old Testament that he does in the New Testament.

[b]What's the difference? In the Old Testament book of Numbers, when Moses was complaining because the burden of
leading all the people had become so weighty it was about to crush him, he pled for relief from God. God told him to
gather seventy of the elders of Israel in order to take from the Spirit that was upon Moses and distribute it to the seventy
so they could help him lead the people of Israel. That's exactly what the text said happened. God then gave this
charismatic empowering, this special gift, to seventy other people, not just Moses, so that they could all participate in
ministry. That was not regeneration or sanctification, it was an empowering for ministry given only to select individuals.
Moses' prayer was, 'Oh, that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!' (Num.
11:29). What Moses prayed for became a prophecy in the pen of the prophet Joel, who said that in the latter days that's
exactly what would happen. And on the day of Pentecost it did happen. The apostle Peter said that it was about this that
Joel was writing, that now the Spirit to empower the church for ministry is given to everybody, not just to the leaders.[/b]

In Galatians 5, Paul makes the statement: 'Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.' It sounds
so simple, but what does it actually mean?

Whenever you see spirit and flesh set side by side in a passage ('the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak' or 'the spirit wars
against the flesh,' as Paul says here), we're talking about, not the warfare between the physical body of man and his internal,
mental, or spiritual inclinations, but rather the conflict that every Christian experiences between his old nature -- his fallen nature,
which is corrupt and is filled with desires that are not pleasing to God - and the new nature within him that has been brought to pass
by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

Now, life becomes complicated once we are renewed by the Holy Spirit (when we become a Christian); now we have two
principles at war within ourselves: the old inclinations and the new inclinations. The old inclination is against God, and the
new inclination is to obey God and to do that which is pleasing to him. In this Galatians passage, Paul discussed the
ongoing battle that all Christians experience. He admonishes us at one point and says, 'Follow the new principle, follow
the new spirit, not the old pattern that was characteristic of your original state of fallenness.' He's not saying that your
physical body is at war with your soul, but that your natural inclinations are at war with the transformation toward which
the Holy Spirit is constantly moving you as a child of God. And that does involve a decision and an act of the will.

What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?

The role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was not principally different from the role of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament. While there are some differences, there's an essential unity between the two Testaments.

InesQor:

@Joagbaje & nuella2:
Let me try to shed some more light on the Essence of the person of Christ as I have come to understand it.

From the very beginning to the end, Christ the Son of God, in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead, has been, is, and will be present and remains the ONLY way to the Father. But even in the physical, Christ has always been there, and in many more revelations than as a man. He was the lamb slain from before the world's foundations.

In the OT, Christ was typified from the instance of the initial covering of the unclothedness of Adam and Eve, to Abel's pure sacrifice, to the ark of Noah's baptism, to the promise that Abraham received, etc etc into aspects of the law like the passover and atonement, the Rock of water, the Manna of heaven, the Serpent that was hung for healing, etc etc.

According to God's promise to avenge Eve (since satan got man down, a man had to conquer him in return), the last typification of Christ on earth was as a man, the man Jesus Christ. This man-clothed God referred to himself using these various typifications that earlier represented him in the Old Testament. But for that they sought to kill him. They never sought to abolish the passover for instance, or discredit Noah's ark, or say the manna was just a myth! This is the stubbornness of human hearts, because they saw him like them in the flesh. They never once realized Christ had always been there. Abraham rejoiced to see his day, before Abraham was, Christ is.

The very same faith with which Noah built an ark is the same faith with which one confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. Their reward of being "Born Again" is equal. Their salvation is equal. None is superior to the other.

For the same reason, I believe there may be people today who never heard of the man Jesus but are "Born again", i.e. Born from Above because God communicated Christ to them the same way he communicated Christ to Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David and other OT saints.

I believe it is wrong to claim a monopoly on the Christ for us just because we know him in the flesh. There arelthose who knew him in essence before His revelation in the flesh, and their faith was imputed unto them as righteousness. Just like yours was imputed too, when you got born again by faith in Christ become flesh.
Faith in Christ is what makes one born again.

The very same faith with which Noah built an ark is the same faith with which one confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. Their reward of being "Born Again" is equal. Their salvation is equal. None is superior to the other.
For the same reason, I believe there may be people today who never heard of the man Jesus but are "Born again", i.e. Born from Above because God communicated Christ to them the same way he communicated Christ to Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David and other OT saints
There are those who knew him in essence before His revelation in the flesh, and their faith was imputed unto them as righteousness. Just like yours was imputed too, when you got born again by faith in Christ become flesh.
Faith in Christ is what makes one born again,

aletheia:

I am not sure the other side will agree with you (Joagbaje seems to have gone silent).

What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?

The role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was not principally different from the role of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament. While there are some differences, there's an essential unity between the two Testaments.

Enigma:

Until you deal with Jesus' words about a person has to be born again to be in God's kingdom and that people will sit with Abraham in God's kingdom, nothing you have to say is worth thinking about.

Joagbaje:

Enigma,

I didnt get to see the post earlier. Abraham and the father's of faith are in the kingdom . I will respond in a moment

Joagbaje:

Because of the nature of sin in man's spirit, They could not contain the holyghost is their dead spirit. The holyghost could only come on them, but not dwelling in their spirits like ours.

The second aspect of the Spirit’s work in the Old Testament is indwelling, or filling. Here is where the major difference between the Spirit’s roles in the Old and New Testaments is apparent. The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20). When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. The Apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:13-14). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit “coming upon” the various Judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. What we can discern from this is that the Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. We also see that the indwelling was a sign of God’s favor upon that individual (in the case of David) and that if God’s favor left an individual, the Spirit would depart (e.g., Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14). Finally, the Spirit “coming upon” an individual doesn’t always indicate that person’s spiritual condition (e.g., Saul, Samson, and many of the Judges). So while in the New Testament the Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Spirit indwelled certain Old Testament individuals for a specific task, irrespective of their spiritual condition. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

mabell:

@Enigma
the above only supports what joagbaje said.
the people under the old testament could not have the indwelling of the spirit because their spirits were dead since they were not born again
being born again is the regeneration of the holy ghost in the inner man that is the spirit man

mabell:

. . .
@Enigma

the above only supports what joagbaje said.
the people under the old testament could not have the indwelling of the spirit because their spirits were dead since they were not born again
being born again is the regeneration of the holy ghost in the inner man that is the spirit man

And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:

3And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him

11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

13That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?

14As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

mabell:

. . .
@Enigma

the above only supports what joagbaje said.
the people under the old testament could not have the indwelling of the spirit because their spirits were dead since they were not born again
being born again is the regeneration of the holy ghost in the inner man that is the spirit man

Enigma:


In addition to my first reply above: we have made clear that Old Testament saints were born again.

In fact the challenge still remains for Joagbaje (and you or any of his supporters):

How can Abraham be in or enter the kingdom of God, if he was not born again, when Jesus said except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God?

InesQor:

@Joagbaje:
I beg to disagree, sir.

Being born of the Spirit means being Spirit-controlled even in the face of "normal human behaviour". See john 3:7-8 where Jesus compares it to the blowing wind. It is a walk of faith and reliance on God.

The only person in the Bible besides Jesus who spoke of being born again, is Peter in 1 Peter 1:23, and he clearly says that its the incorruptible word of God that makes one born again. Noah received this word of God by faith and it transformed his experience, as much as Saul of Tarsus did. Thus both are as born again as each other.

The only difference in aspect is that the Spirit filled OT saints selectively, while for NT saints there is no partial selectivity across persons, times and purposes. They still have one thing in common though, the Spirit will not move against your faith in God and reliance on His Word.

. None are better than the other, although the former ones worked with much less to obtain the very much same life.

The Seal is the Holy Spirit, the seal was available by proxy to the OT saints via IOUs issued while waiting for the King, Christ, to be born on earth. They looked forward as we look backwards but as Peter said, its the very same word of God that makes us Born Again.

Joagbaje:

Enigma.
Concerning your question, I have pondered to know the best approach to it to avoid escalating controversy,  I had said earlier that the the Kindom has 2 parts , The now, and  the world to come.

There is a difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven.

John 3:3
   Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[color=#990000]Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. [/color]

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

. . .  when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God . . .