Joagbaje is here after all!

He didn't come to Washington with GJ, maybe it was a protocol decision to leave him in Nigeria, I even camped out in front of Blair house and didn't see anyone looking like good 'ol jo

Oga jo, make you take am easy now, A Christian should DO EVERYTHING to avoid SIN, when a Christian sins, he is inviting satan to deal with him and unless he seeks forgiveness and atonement, he is game for satan. "The soul that sin shall die, "

Joagbaje:

You shoould know by now  I dont waste my time  responding to people like you again. maybe someone else will help your ignorance.
2 Tim. 3:7
   Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Anybody out there

Of course, you can't respond because time and again, I have exposed your dubious heresies, like I just did. So you ignore me, hoping I will go away. FYI, I will continue to expose you and your false gnostic gospel as long as God gives me strength. That way God's true sheep will see you for the wolf that you are. Greater than James and John indeed!!!

2 Tim 3:1-13  This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

And of course you wouldn't quote the full verse in 2 Tim, not so? Because it exposes you further. Like Jannes and Jambres, you resist the truth, despite how many times it has been presented to you in this forum. The reason for that is because of your pride, (you believe you possess some form of superior revelation unknown to us lesser mortals). Well understand this:
1. Sola scriptura
2. Sola fide
3. Sola gratia
4. Solus Christos
5. Soli Deo gloria

but then you long wandered from this path, following the lies of the serpent.

^^^Joagbaje, you are not getting off that lightly.
Did you or did you not make the following statement?

Joagbaje:

You get born again only once. If you sin , or make a mistake, it doesnt stop you from being born again . For your information , the only person that can sin is a christian!. What ever evil an unsaved man commits is not a sin. He is the embodiment of sin already! He cant be forgiven, but its only a christian that can sin and recieve forgiveness. No Child of God like to sin , but there is provision for him if he does.

Which I pointed out to you contained three unbiblical statements (actually four)

aletheia:

Joagbaje, you have come again with your twisting of words: Three lies in your statement.
1. Every man sins.
2. Whatever evil an unsaved man commits is sin. Again Rom 3:23
3. He can't be forgiven? Now you are God to declare that a man cannot be forgiven. The implication of this your statement is that the vicarious atonement of Jesus is not enough. Only one sin will not be forgiven.
4. You corrupt the grace of God and turn it into a licence for sin by your statement: "its only a christian that can sin and recieve forgiveness"

And you responded like this:

Joagbaje:

You shoould know by now I dont waste my time responding to people like you again. maybe someone else will help your ignorance.

What are you hiding? Why will you not respond to the issues pointed out above. Or are you trying to feed us sugar-coated poison and tell us it is a greater revelation. Isn't it epignosis, you usually call it?

@ Altheia,

You should understand the difference between sin and sins. There is a different between the nature of sin and the conduct of sin. That was the point joagbaje was communicating that you misunderstood. We  inherited the nature of sin through Adam. So when the bible says "All have sinned" It was making reference to the sin nature through Adam. We were born in sin. We were sinners by birth. There is difference between " All have sinned" and " all are sinning" We sinned in Adam. We are justified  in Christ who was made sin for us.

A sinner or an umbeliever does not need forgiveness, but remmission of sin. remission is total blotting out of the sin nature. If a man that is not saved asks God for forgiveness, he can't get it because the prayer God will hear from a sinner is for his salvation.

It is a Christian that can be forgiven.

@nuella2: When Jesus taught the disciples the pattern of prayer that is now called the "Lord's Prayer", why did he say "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" since only Christians can be forgiven, and there were no Christians at the time?

Explain the above without skating on ice. Thanks.

---

EDIT:

Mat 6:12  And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven (left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have given up resentment against) our debtors. (Amplified)

Also from the KJV

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Mar 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Were they Christians to whom Jesus said these?

Aletheia your posts have been full of insults and all. I dont want anything to get me out of Christian love, I dont want my righteous soul poluted or grieved. I love to discuss with people that are ready to reason scripturally. I had told you this before that i wont respond to you again. I dont have anything to hide.You dont stay on topic but veeer off into personal attacks and all. Even if you dont like my post , it is not reason for abuses.That is the reason i stopped responding to you. I stand for truth.

@Joagbaje: I don't think aletheia insulted you, but at least you know I wouldn't do that. Can you please answer his questions for my sake, or at least answer this one?

InesQor:

@nuella2: When Jesus taught the disciples the pattern of prayer that is now called the "Lord's Prayer", why did he say "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" since only Christians can be forgiven, and there were no Christians at the time?

Explain the above without skating on ice. Thanks.

---

EDIT:

Mat 6:12  And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven (left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have given up resentment against) our debtors. (Amplified)

Also from the KJV

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Mar 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Were they Christians to whom Jesus said these?

Joagbaje:

Aletheia your posts have been full of insults and all. I dont want anything to get me out of Christian love, I dont want my righteous soul poluted or grieved. I love to discuss with people that are ready to reason scripturally. I had told you this before that i wont respond to you again. I dont have anything to hide.You dont stay on topic but veeer off into personal attacks and all. Even if you dont like my post , it is not reason for abuses.That is the reason i stopped responding to you. I stand for truth.

Could you please show where I insulted you? I am willing to apologize if I did.

InesQor:

@nuella2: When Jesus taught the disciples the pattern of prayer that is now called the "Lord's Prayer", why did he say "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" since only Christians can be forgiven, and there were no Christians at the time?

Explain the above without skating on ice. Thanks.

---

EDIT:

Mat 6:12  And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven (left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have given up resentment against) our debtors. (Amplified)

Also from the KJV

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mar 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Mar 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Were they Christians to whom Jesus said these?

That prayer was it before the death, burial , resurrection and ascention of Jesus christ? When the apostles met unsaved people after Jesus has shed his blood, what was the message? Just be asking of forgiveness or total surrender to the lordship of Jesus christ. So the sinful nature could be blotted away? To live in the river you must first have the nature to live there. The prayer the sinner should do, is total surrender. But God is a merciful God remember.

nuella2:

That prayer was it before the death, burial , resurrection and ascention of Jesus christ? When the apostles met unsaved people after Jesus has shed his blood, what was the message? Just be asking of forgiveness or total surrender to the lordship of Jesus christ. So the sinful nature could be blotted away? To live in the river you must first have the nature to live there. The prayer the sinner should do, is total surrender. But God is a merciful God remember.

Why is nuella2 dribbling now? 

You said ONLY CHRISTIANS CAN BE FORGIVEN. And here I'm showing you where Jesus taught NON-CHRISTIANS to ask for forgiveness. And I asked you to explain the contradiction.

What's all that emesis above?

christianity started after the resurrection of Jesus christ. Before then they were still under the mosaic laws. So pls show me where the bible teaches forgiveness for the unsaved instead of being born again first, the first step.

nuella2:

christianity started after the resurrection of Jesus christ. Before then they were still under the mosaic laws. So pls show me where the bible teaches forgiveness for the unsaved instead of being born again first, the first step.

I already showed you verses above, by JESUS Christ Himself.

Now it's your turn to show me how the people Jesus was talking to and asking to pray for forgiveness, were SAVED people.

ETA: Jesus iterated in Matt 6:14-15 and Mark 11: 25-26 that the Father would forgive those who forgave their fellow humans. THEY WERE NOT YET SAVED, of whom Christ spoke to. So what are you saying? Who is correct here, you or Jesus Christ?

nuclearboy:

I can't help but be impressed by most everyone here. I decidedly feel like Elijah as a time came when I was so miffed at Christianity because I felt we'd totally lost it - I've not been to "church" in years for that reason and preferred informal fellowship. Now I know God has kept His own and you guys prove it.

But what can be done to get people to understand its not just "say something with your mouth" then go back to the life you wanted. Indeed "church" is now worse than society and I know two churches where young men go to because they want easy girls. They just pick from the choir! One amazing character I know behaves and boasts about it like he was commissioned for that very purpose.

Any ideas what can be done? - these "business churches" are really distorting truth and what is happening is worse than "worst". Do we just talk of these things and thats it? ANY IDEAS what we as individuals can do?

And you are commissioned to kill someone with laughter around here.

nuclearboy:
Do we just talk of these things and thats it? ANY IDEAS what we as individuals can do?

I think talking about it here is a big step, cos there are far more people reading and not posting, than there are posting. NL is a huge resource, many will be reached just by this alone. Like someone else said, also just our daily interactions with people will also be significant.

As for other ideas. This summer I'm planning on putting together a short documentary on churches in my city. I intend to interview as many pastors/church workers as will have me, challenge them with the scriptural validity of some of their practices and post it on youtube. Youtube is a HUGE resource we christians don't take advantage of enough. You can reach millions in seconds. Hopefully, it will do some good.

InesQor:

I already showed you verses above, by JESUS Christ Himself.

Now it's your turn to show me how the people Jesus was talking to and asking to pray for forgiveness, were SAVED people.

Dont you understand those folks were not christians at that time. Jesus has not died then, no man was born again then. Until Jesus died and resurrected no man was born again. So that scripture do not apply to born again person(christian) today. What the unsaved person need to do first is to be born again, thats the highest miracle. That time they were spriritually dead but now any man that believe that Jesus is the son of God is made alive in christ.

Please whoever understands what I am trying to explain to nuella2 and Joagbaje should help me explain it to them. I don't know how to better pass this across.

InesQor:

@Joagbaje: I don't think aletheia insulted you, but at least you know I wouldn't do that. Can you please answer his questions for my sake, or at least answer this one?

I dont want us to derail a thread. But if I should answer you . The lords prayer  was not taught to the Church. It was taught to people who had not been born again nor recieved the holyspirit. We can call their time intertestimental period. The lords prayer contains a formatt of great principles. We can not be reciting it as new creation. In Christ we pray by the holyghost.

John 16:13
   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

There is no place where the Church prayed the so called " lords prayer"  A christian can only offer prayer by the spirit. and not recitation!

Ephes. 6:18
   Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

@JeSoul
A good move. I hope someone who truly believes like you do same in Lagos. People are so indoctrinated it makes you sick - "the blessings attached to tithing", "the blessing of first fruit", "prophet offering". The worst of all is the matter of morality nuclearboy speaks of. Here you have people who think that once they meet their financial obligations to "God", nothing else matters. If you try getting into a discussion with some of them about these issues, your eyes will truly open, because Joagbaje's own is a small thing.

Joagbaje:
The lords prayer contains a formatt of great principles. We can not be reciting it as new creation. In Christ we pray by the holyghost

      are my eyes seeing what they are seeing abi na film trick? 
Jo, we should not be praying the Lord's prayer as christians? are you serious?

EDIT: and going by this line of reasoning, we can also effectively say that everything Jesus taught before His death and ressurection is not for the "new creation".

@Joagbaje: Thanks for your response. But no it won't be a derailment, BECAUSE we are talking about being born again and its attendant meanings. Forgiveness is a vital point which you and I can not ignore.

Let me follow your line of thought, although I disagree that the Lord's prayer is not for the church.

However, you said the Lord's prayer was not taught to the church but to unsaved people in an intertestamental period. So do you agree that Jesus told these UNSAVED non-Christians to ask for forgiveness, and as such at least for those ones, non-Christians have prayed for forgiveness?

@JeSoul: Wonderful idea about youtube, big sis. I like that!

MyJoe:

@JeSoul
A good move. I hope someone who truly believes like you do same in Lagos. People are so indoctrinated it makes you sick - "the blessings attached to tithing", "the blessing of first fruit", "prophet offering". The worst of all is the matter of morality nuclearboy speaks of. Here you have people who think that once they meet their financial obligations to "God", nothing else matters. If you try getting into a discussion with some of them about these issues, your eyes will truly open, because Joagbaje's own is a small thing.

It is your post that is making somebody sick because it does not contribute anything.

^^^ Ok

MyJoe:

@JeSoul
A good move. I hope someone who truly believes like you do same in Lagos. People are so indoctrinated it makes you sick - "the blessings attached to tithing", "the blessing of first fruit", "prophet offering". The worst of all is the matter of morality nuclearboy speaks of. Here you have people who think that once they meet their financial obligations to "God", nothing else matters. If you try getting into a discussion with some of them about these issues, your eyes will truly open, because Joagbaje's own is a small thing.

Thanks Joe - and InesQor. I hope someone does get to it in Lagos too. But when I do get back home, by God's grace it is definitely on my agenda to accomplish. I also know one must be careful. You cannot mess around with these people's source of filthy income and not expect them to fight back, even violently. Nuclearboy's stories have been eye-popping and scary to say the least.

nuella2:

@ Altheia,

You should understand the difference between sin and sins. There is a different between the nature of sin and the conduct of sin. That was the point joagbaje was communicating that you misunderstood. We  inherited the nature of sin through Adam. So when the bible says "All have sinned" It was making reference to the sin nature through Adam. We were born in sin. We were sinners by birth. There is difference between " All have sinned" and " all are sinning" We sinned in Adam. We are justified  in Christ who was made sin for us.

A sinner or an umbeliever does not need forgiveness, but remmission of sin. remission is total blotting out of the sin nature. If a man that is not saved asks God for forgiveness, he can't get it because the prayer God will hear from a sinner is for his salvation.

It is a Christian that can be forgiven.

Hmmm word games: So you imply that remission is not forgiveness. What do you make of this then:

Remission: noun
1 : the cancellation of a debt or charge
2 : the reduction of a prison sentence as a reward for good behaviour
3 : forgiveness of sins

I think the problem here is a redefining the traditional meaning of words in order to make them say what they want them to say. This is one of the factors contributing to the perversion of the true gospel of Jesus.

What you are actually saying by this statement: "A sinner or an umbeliever (sic) does not need forgiveness, but remmission (sic) of sin." when you consider the meaning of the word remission is:
A sinner or an unbeliever does not need forgiveness, but forgiveness of sin. Compare these two verses:

Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (KJV)

Mat 26:28  for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (ESV)

What do you see?

You cannot separate the sin nature from acts of sins, as you attempt to do (shades of gnosticism there). Sin nature--->Sins.

You also said: "If a man that is not saved asks God for forgiveness, he can't get it because the prayer God will hear from a sinner is for his salvation."
Three questions for you, the publican in Luke 18:13,
1. Was he saved?
2. Did he ask God for forgiveness?
3. Did God hear him?
You have a misconception of what salvation is? Isn't salvation the forgiveness of our sins and restoration of our broken relationship with God?
1.

Act 5:30-31  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

2.

Act 13:38-39  Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

3.

Act 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

InesQor:

@Joagbaje: Thanks for your response. But no it won't be a derailment, BECAUSE we are talking about being born again and its attendant meanings. Forgiveness is a vital point which you and I can not ignore.

Let me follow your line of thought, although I disagree that the Lord's prayer is not for the church.

However, you said the Lord's prayer was not taught to the church but to unsaved people in an intertestamental period. So do you agree that Jesus told these UNSAVED non-Christians to ask for forgiveness, and as such at least for those ones, non-Christians have prayed for forgiveness?

@JeSoul: Wonderful idea about youtube, big sis. I like that!

It was a legitimate prayer under their dispensation. The standard of righteousness was different from  the Church age. there was forgiveness and atonement under judaism. But no remission. Jeus has brought remmission. a man has to embrace remmision first before he can be qualified for forgiveness.

BTW that definition of remission is from the Concise Oxford American Dictionary and Thesaurus. I didn't make it up.

On the originating thread, I expressed a wish that this thread would be left alone by moslems and atheists. Is it not telling that a part of me is beginning to wish that the WoFers would also leave it alone? Anyway, I have put that part under subjection and now hope and pray that some of the WoFers might at least start to rethink their errors!

^^ Enigma I think it is good the WOFers are here. It is more profitable to lay out the scriptures and we all go over them from both angles and then the audience can make up their own minds for themselves.

Agreed, Jesoul.

Joagbaje:

. . .The standard of righteousness was different from  the Church age. there was forgiveness and atonement under judaism. But no remission. Jeus has brought remmission. a man has to embrace remmision first before he can be qualified for forgiveness.

You see what I mean about the sort of red flags Joagbaje keeps waving. Does he even pass what he writes through the filter of scriptures. Okay O.
From the Old Testament

Hab 2:4  "Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Psa 32:1  Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

From the New Testament

Rom 1:16-17  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

What is the difference between old and new testament saints?

Wofers are like smudges on the windshield of true Christianity and should be stopped before they lead way too many astray.

", be wise as serpents and gentle as doves, "

The "name it and claim it" p*i*m*ps forget Tim.6:3-8, one has to be very CAREFUL with these bunch.

WOFers' are not really smudges! They are more like thick black paint over a vehicle windscreen with the words - "minimum speed 100MPH. Just trust in pastor chris" - on the opaque interior of the glass. Can you imagine a supposed pastor misapplying the Bible and deliberately changing the meaning of God's Word. We used to say Muslims derailed threads with distraction - this is mastery at its peak and they have nothing on him! I'm greater than John. Only me has forgiveness. Others cannot be forgiven. You're insulting me by correcting me. So why didn't Peter say same when Paul corrected him? And no wonder your pastors are having children from all over their congregations. Soon too, banks will ask if you are CE so they know if they are safe employing you

Rubbish! I wish I could put a box of christmas bangers inside your nostrils and set them off.

And yes, Jesoul, EVERYTHING JESUS SAID BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION IS OFF NO IMPORT TODAY because there is better revelation knowledge now! . Shey the Bible said "Jesus wept" abi? Today, He would outright faint