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Why Do Pastors Avoid Using The Names (YAHWEH And YESHUA) / Yahweh And Freewill (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 7:14pm On Apr 28, 2010 |
Romeo4real: I don't think that you can find this kind of grammar on any other section of Nairaland. And some people will argue that religion makes you stupid. Au Contraire!! |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by noetic16(m): 7:29pm On Apr 28, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: I knew u were going to shoot yourself in the foot and reveal inevitable traces of ignorance. 1. The same El whom u address as a cananite and loving God who interacted with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was the same God, who a. banished adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. b. placed a mark/curse on Cain for killing Abel. c. destroyed the world with flood and saved just Noah and his family. d. destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with stones of fire. El was always the same person as Yahweh/Jehovah, with the SAME ontology and personality. The problem is u never took time to study the bible. 2. It pains me to see u address urself as a "pastor" . . . I wonder what u teach your flock. The same relationship El had with Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the same relationship Jesus came to re-establish with believers. If u dont believe in the sacrifice of JC. . . . .how then do u partake in this special relationship? So these stories are not a corruption but rather in perfect harmony with the way the people of that part of the world at that time thought of their deities. This is rather dogmatic and shows a preconceived belief that Yahweh, El, Jehovah and Elohim are different persons. This belief is erroneous as how then do u explain the reconcilable ontology of these names? But then comes an apparently new figure. A terrifying awe inspiring, jealous being. A deity unheard of in Canaan. El was a Canaanite deity. El Elyon was the Ruler of the Gods, the Elohim, in ancient canaanite religion. How this new deity was first encountered, not in canaan, but in Midian. He tells Moses not to approach but to take of his shoes. Already this is quite different from El. El walked through paradise in the evening calling out to Adam. Yahweh is telling man to keep a distance. 1. whats the difference between El who banished adam and Eve because of sin . . . .and the Yahweh who would not tolerate any form of sin? 2. whats the difference between the El who cursed Cain, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the entire earth with flood . . . . .and Yahweh who brought plagues to Egypt for defying Him and asked that all idolatry nations be destroyed? Karen Armstrong suggests that there was conflict with the introduction of Yahweh to the Israelite community, and that the Israelites didn't first accept him because they didn't know him. I find that all highly speculative. I have no opinion on that matter but without a doubt and by Yahweh's own admission the reason why Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not know him was because he used a different name with them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity) Karen has a preconceived agenda and you "pastor" AIO is confusingly ignorant of biblical teachings. What other introduction could Yahweh have given His people . . . , other than[i] I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.[/i] For God's sake these are the patriarchs who the whole of Israel look up to and from whom the 12 tribes are descendants of. Wiki continues: I laugh at your ignorance in ibibio
I think u should post it all now to educate my ignorance . . . , but why would u commission the translation of the bible since u believe it is filled with errors? |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by nuclearboy(m): 9:27pm On Apr 28, 2010 |
@Romeo4real: Are you sure you don't answer the moniker "Viaro" on occasion? Whatever, I'm loving you, bro. Big Time!! DeepSight may end up with only the name the way he's being slapped, kicked, bashed, whipped, assaulted, gang-banged etc all over NL. Seems Yahweh has the last laugh on you guy! His children (plenty of them too) seem to find it so easy to stick ceremonial swords (scabbards and lanyards included) up your behind, SIDEWAYS! You might want to move over to the romance section. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by DeepSight(m): 12:26pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Mr. Romeo4Real (under suspicion) - You stated that the issue is whether a Principal and his messenger are the same person. That whas a ghastly mis-perception. That has never been the issue - just as I pointed out - Deep Sight: I note that rather than address ANY of the issues I pointed out to you: namely the reality of a Principal and an Agent - and my rebuttal of your claim that the discourse centred on "if they were the same person" - you have responded by asserting that I am a fool, amongst other things. Since you have made no response to the points I raised above, I summarily conclude that you agree with them: but are strangely compelled to insult me for offering my perspectives. Smile. Life is beautiful. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by DeepSight(m): 12:33pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
nuclearboy: I will urge you to review issues, and not personalities. For my part I do not have, and will not be persuaded to have, a negative view of you. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 12:55pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
noetic16: I did say that El was a Canaanite God and nothing you've said above has refuted that. I DID NOT say that El was a loving God, I said that he interacted with his followers on more familiar terms than Yahweh did. All your points from a to d are totally and utterly irrelevant. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Nobody: 1:01pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Fellow Believers, Gone are the days when we spent time convincing unbelievers, these are perilious times. I think we have more job to do preparing ourselves for the journey ahead than standing by and answering any bystander whose only aim is to slow us down. Light and darkness do not mix and so how does light explain to darkness what he is or darkness explain to light what he is? IT IS NOT POSSIBLE. My point? Its not for every rain that falls that you run to bring out bowls to fetch water. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 1:01pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
The educated thing to do here is to show some documentation demonstrating what you said, or at least produce an argument to support your assertion. But alas, you lack education, don't you? 2. It pains me to see u address urself as a "pastor" . . . I wonder what u teach your flock.Awww . . . pele. Don't let it pain you too much. The same relationship El had with Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the same relationship Jesus came to re-establish with believers. If u dont believe in the sacrifice of JC. . . . .how then do u partake in this special relationship?I thought that relationship that Jesus came to re-establish was the one broken by Adam in the garden of Eden. Perhaps you can teach me more about this part of your 'christianity'. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 1:08pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
I think u should post it all now to educate my ignorance . . . , but why would u commission the translation of the bible since u believe it is filled with errors?I would commission it so that nunceheads like you will not conflate Yahweh, El, and Elohim as you have done here: This is rather dogmatic and shows a preconceived belief that Yahweh, El, Jehovah and Elohim are different persons. This belief is erroneous as how then do u explain the reconcilable ontology of these names? I cannot explain what I cannot see. Please show me the reconcilable ontologies. (Why the need to reconcile if they are the same, even). The Elohim are in fact plural. Were you aware of that? |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by DeepSight(m): 1:13pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Sun Tzu: Ha ha. Why is it that you guys just can't get over the lies and hypocrisy of your genocidal Yahweh? Haba, the Jews created their Yahweh, why don't you create yours - and keep him far from lies and genocide. You can simply co-opt one of the millions of already existing African Deities and substitute him for Yahweh, since Yahweh has become an international embarrassment to you. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by nuclearboy(m): 1:15pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
@DeepSight: The only bad impression I get from you is the DELIBERATE BIAS towards error when Jesus is discussed. Aside that, you will remember the respect I have stated for your mind. However, the language directed towards you in a few posts on this thread amused me and remembering Viaro, it seems almost a gangup. The spirit behind my post then was amusement and not ridicule. But I am affiliated to the "Carpenter" so you may continue the bias against me. I wonder why you didn't find anything against MyJoe who's suddenly "liking" Romeo4real. Oh, I remember - he's not Christian! |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by DeepSight(m): 1:19pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
^^^ Simple - he did not use these rather offensive words (bolded)- nuclearboy: I am always happy to have fresh blood to interact with. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Romeo4real(m): 1:33pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
@Deep Sight - I did not address the points u raised as i have no interest in circular arguments of no intellectual value. I did not mean to insult you. Unfortunately, patience with people who persist in advancing fatally flawed dicussions, despite being shown the error inherent in their argument, is not a particularly strong point of mine. I do apologise if you took anything in my post to you as an insult. It certainly was not meant to be so. Back to your post. I am sure you are quite aware of the timeline of this particular discussion. Maybe i was not absolutely clear in what i wrote, but this was under the assumption that we are both articulate and erudite to a certain degree - so no need to spell out stuff as children. The principal and the Agent are not the same. I never said YOU said they are the same, and i never intended to say they are the same - my previous posts hv been clear on that - but im sure u knew that. Hope that clears it up. What you said, is that the ACTIONS of the Principal, and the Agent are seen as the same - in law. You clarified it further by saying - Yaweh has admitted he tells lies. He sent a lying spirit (I dnt have access to the original quote at the moment, but this shd not be far off). To buttress your point, you further assert that someone who sends an asassin is guilty of the crime of murder, same as the asassin himself - this i refuted, and showed that this is not NECCESSARILY so. On this issue, so far, i think we agree that this is what u are postulating. Consequently, you conclude that Yaweh is also a liar - because he sent a lying spirit. This is what i refute, because its a logical fallacy, and a deductive argument. The premise is true (Yaweh sent a lying spirit), but the conclusion is wrong(Yaweh is a liar). And my response to your analogy using your PA send a letter show why it is an invalid conclusion. If you refuse to see this, then there is no point in advancing any discussion further. I have no issue with u on your beliefs, as i also have mine. Howeveer, the purpose of healthy debate is to stimulate thought, and advance our intellectual viewpoints and knowledge base. Stubborness and dogma shd have no place in that. I do apologise for the txt speak and any errors contained in my post. Also i hv been unable to quote ad verbatim. I am composing this at an airport, on my phone. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Bastage: 1:47pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
noetic16: I agree with PastorAIO. Your assertion does not take into account evolutionary factors within religion. The God of Abraham in the OT is of a different personality to that of Moses'. Take it further down the line and he's totally different from the god in the NT. The god evolved and morphed into another as his followers developed and expounded on their religion. There are many, many instances where religion has evolved and the nature of god has changed with them. Judeo/Vhristianity is no different and there is no logical reason why that should not be so. I'd have to also disagree that the god of the early OT and that of later pages is of the same personality and ontology. Although there are some similarites, this would only be natural. But take a look further down the line to the NT and you can see that there is a clear difference - we go from warrior desert god to universal loving god - the two couldn't be further apart in character. Similarites do not point to El/Jehovah being the same god. it's like saying that a banana is the same as an apple because they are both fruits when clearly they are two separate organisms with different attributes. As for using the name as evidence of an identical god? Let's not forget that the Christian god also had many others. And we can't read anything into the names El or Elohim as they predate Judaism and were just general terms for the name "god". I too have read the Karen Armstrong book. Once cannot place ridicule at her doorstep as she is only repeating what many theologians have stated for years - there are many gods in the bible. God is a belief. A theory. Non-believers often point that out yet totally ignore the facts that theories always evolve - even in such dogmatic practices as religion. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by DeepSight(m): 1:53pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
@ Romeo - Well thank you for your response. I believe the lines are clearly demarcated as you have said: 1. We agree that he sent a lying spirit 2. We disagree on whether that makes him a liar. You for your part have stated that that does not make him a liar. To buttress this you stated that if I send my PA to deliver a message, that does not make ME a Messenger. I refute this analogy as being a flawed one: for the simple reason that we have not argued concerning Yahweh's vocation. I state (and I earlier stated already) that what is significant is the content of the message. The content of the message is doubtless mine. This you cannot dispute. Accordingly the content of the false message sent to those prophets belonged to Yahweh. This logically and ineluctably renders him a liar. In this regard note the specific words in 2Ch 18:21 - "[the lord] said - 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.' I hope this reasoing is clear. As a post-script, let me just emphasize one thing again - I have no particular interest in denigrating Yahweh. As you know, I believe in and worship God. I simply do not believe that Yahweh as described in the OT is God. His Ontology is too inconsistent with the purity that I ascribe to God. And it tickles me that people cannot see that. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 2:07pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Psalm 82 verse 1, (The King noetic version): God stands in the council of God and judges God . . . . I say you are God, the Son of God but you will die like a man!! Origin Hebrew: Psalm 82:1 Hebrew Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear) What it actually says is: The Elohim congregate in the council of El and he judges among the Elohim. http://biblos.com/psalms/82-1.htm verse 6: You are elohim, all of you are children of El Elyon Now tell me how in God's name ( ) IS Elohim equal to El Elyon. Isn't it obvious that elohim is plural and refers to many beings. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Bastage: 2:31pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
In that specific passage it is plural. But it should also be remembered that Elohim is also plural intensive with singular meaning. There are instances where it refers to the "one" god and others where it refers to many. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by DeepSight(m): 2:35pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
^^^ Wikipedia - Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity or deity, notably used as a name of God in Judaism. It is apparently related to the Northwest Semitic word ʾēl (אֱל) "god". Within Hebrew, it is morphologically a plural, in use both as a true plural with the meaning "angels, gods, rulers" and as a "plural intensive" with singular meaning, referring to a god or goddess, and especially to the single God of Israel. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Bastage: 2:47pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
That's what I just wrote. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by DeepSight(m): 2:49pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
I know. Just buttressing the point. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 5:17pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
The bottom line is that El, Elohim, and Yahweh do not mean the same thing. You can say of Yahweh that 'Yahweh shall be my elohim'. eg in the phrase and he shall be your god and you shall be his people. Yahweh shall be your elohim and you shall be his people |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Bastage: 6:03pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
As I stated earlier, "elohim" and "el" were just generic terms for god/s that predate Judaism. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Nobody: 6:35pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
i give up . . . i only popped up to say - good to see you again bastage! |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 6:54pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Bastage: True, but there is actually a specific Deity called El as well who fathered Hadad(ba'al), Yam, and Mot. davidylan: Now this is unexpected!! I wasn't expecting you to give up so suddenly when you came into this thread huffing and puffing and hurling insults left right and center like an ancient semitic deity. (lest you accuse me of impiety I am not referring to yahweh here but any of a vast number. Take your pick. Let me choose for you - Marduk). You usually have more stamina than this. I was expecting more selective picking and choosing of verses. I was expecting more oxymoronic statements like telling me that my questions are ignorant. Of course it was not that you were offended by ignorance as much as you were hoping that I would feel hurt or insulted by being called ignorant. That didn't work, did it? It usually doesn't because I've long made my peace with the knowledge that I'll remain ignorant of most things in the universe even if I lived 1 thousand years. so abeg allow me to keep making inquiries in blissful ignorance. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Nobody: 7:02pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: considering the number of things on my plate, its no longer expedient for me to respond to the vast amount of misinformation that passes for posts here. Have a good day. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 7:24pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
davidylan: I appreciate that you are busy. But you cannot say that the passage does not mention Yahweh or have the prophets speaking for Yahweh. Please do the prophet speak on Yahweh's behalf or not? Answer. It is okay you can take your time if you are busy. Me too I'm am quite busy these days. I don't mind if you make your contribution once every 2 or 3 days. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by JeSoul(f): 7:34pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Utterly and totally and completely off-topic: So I'm minding my own business behind the scenes, reading the thread, chuckling at all the witty exchanges and I[i] mistakenly[/i] click on David's profile and wow who woulda known David the NL warrior is such a fine fine boi. In light of the above, Pastor AIO I beseech thee to please take am sofly with David. Furthermore, please Pastor feel free to mistakenly upload your picture, so I can be once again stunned lol. All these undercover fine dudes on NL self . . . saw Abuzola's pic a while back and was like lol does not fit the cyber image at all. sorry Mazaje for going off-topic. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by PastorAIO: 8:00pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
JeSoul: Okay o, but I wouldn't like to run into him in a dark alley. Especially not standing like that arms akimbo looking like he is ready to take on the entire hosts of hell. He looks like if he just gave the sky a warning glance all that snow will halt immediately. Well, as regards my own picture, I don't want to stun you in the other direction. Feel free to imagine me in any delightful form that you choose. I promise you it'll be better than the reality. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by nuclearboy(m): 8:08pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
@PastorAIO; Are you numbered in the "hosts of hell"? Sincere question (no pun or whatever intended) - what exactly do you subscribe to (religious belief) and who/what do you pastor? And yes, you were right, this section is the only one where you find this level of "enlightened" diction and reasoning. @Jesoul: First picture we should be looking for is yours |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by JeSoul(f): 8:24pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Pastor AIO:its the warrior in him now Pastor, I doubt he can help it. Well, as regards my own picture, I don't want to stun you in the other direction. Feel free to imagine me in any delightful form that you choose. I promise you it'll be better than the reality.Yeah yeah . . . the stunnerz - both inside and out - always try to deflect the attention from themselves in a noble attempt at modesty. Be conceited for once in your NL life pastor - unleash your inner Narcissus and show us the stunner nuclearboy:I laugh. Some of us have wondered and tried to solicit definitive answers from him on many an occasion. My guess is Pastor himself is still figuring it all out - just like the rest of us. @Jesoul:Lol, it has made an appearance or two in the past. But for today? after you sir . |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by Bastage: 10:03pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
nuclearboy: Did you not know that anyone who disagrees with DD's take on Christianity is numbered thusly? BTW. Hi David. |
Re: Yahweh And His Lying Angels. by noetic16(m): 10:17pm On Apr 29, 2010 |
Pastor AIO: dude in contrast to Eli u claimed that Yahweh was an angry, jealous God not properly introduced to the jews? . . .what other meaning did u connote other than the one pre-stated? . . . .The least u could have done is to admit ur folly |
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