Dear friend Amor4ce:
I hope you do not have misunderstood me.
I do not disqualify his opinion. I could never do that because I have no deep knowledge of historical facts. I would be very rude and very arrogant, in short, a fool, if I pretend to discuss African history with any of you.
I am a practitioner and researcher, and I have the most profound of respect for those who also seek the truth in the dark sea of the past.
I simply meant that in my order of priorities, there are elements that require a higher priority than that of the Yoruba link with Israel.
But that in no way invalidates their position, and if so understood, ask the formal apology to all.
Regardless of success or failure, I have I never intended to offend anyone.
Thanks for accepting me despite be a foreigner.

@Amor4ce, there is nothing wrong with truth seeking or historical research, I was just sounding a note of caution based on my experiences with these types of research and tenuous linkages. I can see you get my point also. Please do continue in your quest, I'll be glad if you can find those links and sufficiently prove them ("sufficient" there is objective but at least it's something) it will add to the body of historical knowledge. So keep at it bro.

Thanks for your responses. I agree we need to be conscious and alert, to avoid repeating mistakes over and over again, and to guard against deception and delusion.

Whether in the diaspora or in Africa we are one family and we have one progenitor.

Eji-Ogbe Ẹsẹ 7

Orule gaji,
Orule taji,
Orule tataata-tuuru-ta,
Afin onilare.

Awoo ile Ọrunmila,
Dia fun Ọrunmila.

O nti I kole-ọrun bọ wa ikole aye
O ni oun lọ ree l’owo
Oun lọ ree k’ọle,
Oun lọ re e l’obirin,
Oun lọ ree bi mọ,
Oun lọ ree j’oye ọba a tun aye ṣe.

Wọn ni ko w’oju-ọna
Awọn ti ki-I jẹ ki ẹni o ṣe nkan nile-aye.

Ọrunmila ni to ba ṣe bii t’oun ni,
O l’oun o l’owo-l’ọw,
O ni oun o kọle-kọle,
O ni oun o l’aya-l’aya
O ni oun o b’imọ-b’imọ
O ni oun o j’oye ọba-ataye-ṣe.

Wọn ni o daa, nijọ wo ni o de?

O l’ọjọ ọta-inu-omi baa p’ewe
O lo di’jọ apadi-igbale baa ṣ’ẹjẹ
O di’jọ ti wọn ba digbara ka t’ete,
O di’jọ ti wọn ba digbara ka wewe
Ọrunmila ni o di’jọ a-tian-tian-rere.

Wọn ni:

Ijọ wo ni ọta-inu-omi a to p’ewe
Ijọ wo ni apadi-igbale a to ṣ’ẹjẹ
Ijọ wo ni wọn a to digbara ka t’ete
Ijọ wo ni wọn a to digba raka wewe
Ijọ emi ni ijọ a-tian-tian-rere?

Ọrunmila ni:

To ba jẹ pe bẹẹ ni
O l’oun o pada s’ode ọrun mọ l’oun wi.

“Solid as the roof
Safe as the roof,
The future is certain and secure as the roof.”
Thus was declared for Ọrunmila through his diviner called Albino
At a time when Ọrunmila set out from heaven earth-ward bound.
He (Ọrunmila) said “He is going to earth
To acquire wealth
To own houses
To have many wives
To have several offspring
To crown all these by establishing order on earth.”

He was advised to tread with circumspection due to the presence on earth of evil forces that prevent people from achieving any good.

Ọrunmila replied that He sees no obstacle
He will surely acquire wealth
He will surely acquire houses
He will surely acquire wives
He will surely acquire offspring
He has the wherewithal to establish order on earth.

He was commended for His righteous mission, and asked “When will You return?

He said He will return when the stone at the riverbed blossoms
When the potsherds lining the streets ooze out blood
When what has to be done has been done
When what has to succeed has succeeded
When time approaches but never arrives.

He was asked:

When will the stone in the riverbed blossom?
When will the potsherds in the streets ooze out blood?
When will what has to be done be done?
When will what has to succeed succeed?
When will time approach but never arrive?

He responded:

If you find it difficult to understand,
He said He will not return anymore to heaven.

Can you provide more insight on Yoruba/Ifa's concept of Afterlife or Heaven?

Not yet

Kilode?!:
Can you provide more insight on Yoruba/Ifa's concept of Afterlife or Heaven?

amor4ce: Not yet

LOL! What do you mean not yet? Are you saying that you're not ready to die yet?

For Yoruba this world is the Marketplace and Heaven is Home.

So after going to the market in the morning everybody returns home when evening comes.

Heaven is the world of Possibility. The world of Potentiality.

The role of humans is to bring the things in heaven down to earth. Earth is the world of Actuality.

We therefore bring events from Potential into Actual. Everything that can ever happen therefore exists in Heaven. Whether it will Actually happen on earth depends on if Man can successful transfer it from Heaven to earth.

Even man, when he dies, is transferred back to heaven the world of potentials/potencies/Power.

[i][/i]

Pastor AIO:



LOL! What do you mean not yet? Are you saying that you're not ready to die yet?

I have a lot to learn. Besides, there was a time in my life that, when it was morning I wished it was night and when it was night I wished it was morning. Then, a transition began to look tempting.

A Yoruba individual ought not to be afraid of death: we know that Ela has power over life and death; that He has the power to resurrect one from the dead; that He, with Life in Him, resurrected from the dead; that He is Oyigiyigi ota omi or Everlasting Rock or Rock of Ages; that a popular refrain among His followers is "Awa di oyigiyigi, a ki o ku wa" or we become eternal and die no more. Ela brings the kingdom of God here on earth.

At the time of judgement, people will account to Eleri Ipin for the use of their individual ipin - my understanding.

Itapa Festival as described by German emeritus professor of African history Dierk Lange:

2004a "[urlhttp://dierklange.com/pdf/fulltexts/Dying_and_rising_god.pdf]The Dying and rising god in the New Year festival of Ife[/url]", in. D. Lange, Ancient Kingdoms of West Africa: African-Centred and Canaanite-Israelite Perspectives, Dettelbach, 343-375


http://dierklange.com/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=111&page=view&catid=3&PageNo=1&key=0&hit=1

Pastor AIO:

Hi Odutola, yes o, Dinlogun is an african system.  It is the divination system of the Orisha cults.  Orisha is different from Ifa.  Ifa incorporates Orisha, but then Ifa incorporates everything.  There is even christianity and islam in Ifa. 

Pekutu yeke pekutu yeke
awo Jesu lo difa fun Jesu
Nijo ti ntorun bo wale aye

Pekutu yeke pekutu yeke
The Awo of Jesus divined for Jesus
on the day that he was from heaven coming down to the world

This verse is from Owanrin Ogbe. 

A lot of people are not really aware of the differences.  In fact each orisha has a cult all of it's own.  Obatala devotees have their temples and their priesthoods, Sango devotees have their temples and their priesthoods, etc etc.  Priestesses are called Iyaolorisha, and priests are called babaolorisha. 

In Ifa too, the priests are called Babalawo and Iyalawo.  The two religions each have their own divination systems.  Ifa has Ifa and the Orisha have the Dinlogun.  There are so many divination systems in yorubaland.  Ranging from simple casting of lots, to a system called Ibo to the Ifa with all it's intricacies.  Ifa and dinlogun both share their basis on the number 16 (hence the name erindinlogun).    However the divination tools are different.  Ifa uses Opele and Ikin.  Orisha priest use cowries shells which they throw and then count the number of shells facing up. 

The various Odu have the same name but they are arranged differently.

I am at the moment going through the Ifa order which starts at Eji Ogbe then Oyeku, then Iwori, Odi, Irosun, Owonrin, Obara (we're on Obara at the moment), Okanran, Ogunda, Osa, Ika, Eturupon, Otura, Irete, Ose and finally Ofun.

The Orisha order is as follows.

Okanran - 1
Eji Oko (another name for Oyeku) - 2
Ogunda -3
Irosun - 4
Ose-5
Obara -6
Odi - 7
Eji Ogbe -8
Osa - 9
Ofun -10
Owanrin -11
Ejila (another name for Iwori) - 12

The Orisha system is very much a numerological system and bears a lot of resemblance to the numerology in other cultures.  The numbers of the odu are very important. 
There are four more numbers 13 to 16 simply called etala, erinla, arundilogun, and erindinlogun.  They represent the odus ika, eturupon, otua, and irete.  Orisha priests do not read these odu.  The issue is often referred to an ifa priest if these come up. 

From now on I'll try to bring in some verses from Orisha lore as well as Ifa as I continue through the Odu.  I'll stick to the Ifa order though. 

This raises serious questions! Jesus/Jesu has never been the name of the Redeemer but seems to be of the Biblical beast. Whoever added such a verse to the Ifa liturgy needs to be checked out.

amor4ce:

This raises serious questions! Jesus/Jesu has never been the name of the Redeemer but seems to be of the Biblical beast. Whoever added such a verse to the Ifa liturgy needs to be checked out.

I have been trying to research this process of how Ifa corpus evolves. Who has the authority to add to it and when he does how does it catch on?

Whatever the name of 'the redeemer' Jesu is a fact of nigerian life and that is what Ifa is dealing with. Facts!! There is also the mention of guns in Ifa which were only introduced to Africa in the 16th century. I have even heard Odu being recited about how Telephones came to earth.
Ifa is so dynamic and evolving and that is what is so beautiful about it. it is not a set in stone thing like the Muslims that have a Koran that is written in Fusat Arabic that no moslem that I've ever met understands. Even those that can speak arabic still cannot read the Koran and understand it because Fusat is 7th century arabic. It is almost a different language entirely.

Pastor AIO:

I have been trying to research this process of how Ifa corpus evolves. Who has the authority to add to it and when he does how does it catch on?

Whatever the name of 'the redeemer' Jesu is a fact of nigerian life and that is what Ifa is dealing with. Facts!! There is also the mention of guns in Ifa which were only introduced to Africa in the 16th century. I have even heard Odu being recited about how Telephones came to earth.
Ifa is so dynamic and evolving and that is what is so beautiful about it. it is not a set in stone thing like the Muslims that have a Koran that is written in Fusat Arabic that no moslem that I've ever met understands. Even those that can speak arabic still cannot read the Koran and understand it because Fusat is 7th century arabic. It is almost a different language entirely.

yes even christianity is so stagnant and filled with lies. can you imagine all this while they were telling us that the world is flat, that the Sun revolves around the Earth and that we are descended from two jewish sinners and not apes!

Pastor AIO:

I have been trying to research this process of how Ifa corpus evolves. Who has the authority to add to it and when he does how does it catch on?

Whatever the name of 'the redeemer' Jesu is a fact of nigerian life and that is what Ifa is dealing with. Facts!! There is also the mention of guns in Ifa which were only introduced to Africa in the 16th century. I have even heard Odu being recited about how Telephones came to earth.
Ifa is so dynamic and evolving and that is what is so beautiful about it. it is not a set in stone thing like the Muslims that have a Koran that is written in Fusat Arabic that no moslem that I've ever met understands. Even those that can speak arabic still cannot read the Koran and understand it because Fusat is 7th century arabic. It is almost a different language entirely.

Yeshua is His name and there seems to be a Yoruba cognate/equivalent (hint: remove the first and last letters).

I've been wondering how it is that Ifa priests don't mention the name of God Most High but refer to HIM with titles/epithets like Olorun, Olodumare, Eleda etc.

An interesting discussion about (Esu (Yoruba), Shu (Egyptian) and Yeshua (Hebrew)) very much related to this blog entry can be read at
http://destee.com/index.php?threads/differences-in-kemetic-theology.31493/page-14
Here’s a glimpse as submitted by imhotep06:

In your associations above, you first need to make an inventory of the primary characteristics of the “deities” and their function in PARTICULAR stories before doing comparisons. There is no long narrative like is done in the Bible with Jesus with African mythology. There are fragmented stories and some having to do with something totally different and do not make for a cohesive picture. When we understand this, then you’ll be able to see how Esu (Yoruba), Shu (Egyptian) and Yeshua (Hebrew) are all the same deity. We can match them functionally and linguistically and that is the key (the linguistics).

What connects them all is that each one of them are the personification of the “bridge” between heaven and earth. Shu “separates” Geb from Nut. The only way to get to Nut (and further Nu/Nun) is through Shu (air). This is on a geological level.

Yeshua, the sacrifice, is the divine messenger who carries the prayers of men to God. He is the “bridge” between heaven and earth. “No one can go to the father except through me.”

Now, Esu in the Yoruba we know is the divine messenger who brings all the sacrifices and prayers to God and the Orisha. But we also know that Esu also represents the nervous system of the body. The nerves “communicate” with all the parts of the body (Orisha) and you can’t get to the brain (Obatala/White-Grey matter/God) unless you go through Esu (the nervous system).

So now we see this same function in the Egyptian geologically/astronomically in the Hebrew ritually. And what we find ritually among the Hebrews is also ritually assigned in Ifa but also plays a biological role in this system. What othe functions each system assigns to the “deity” is extra. What combines them all is their function as the crossroads, the bridge or channel between man and God. This is an introduction into Philosophical Cognancy.

I did not I think about Judaism, but is a reality that there are similarities between the various deities of the African cults.
First: read the thread you indicated, I do not understand the relationship with Oya Babaluaié in Section 3. I understand they are quite different deities, until their origin is different.
The origin of Omolu (obáluaié, Somponnó) as well as that of Nana Mburukú is not Yoruba.

I do not see the name of Matamba exposed in worship Congo, divinity on which a parallel could be drawn Orisa Oya.

Anyway: we clear? Clearly understand that when we speak of worship Yoruba Orisa are talking about, and when we do worship Angola-Congo Nkisse talking about?.
The concept of Orisa is totally different from Nkisse

[url=http://sta.uwi.edu/newspics/2009/Esu%20Elegbara3.pdf]Esu Elegbara: A Source of an Alter/Native Theory of African Literature and Criticism[/url] (Funso Aiyejina)

UNDERSTANDING ASE AND ITS RELATION TO ESU AMONG THE YORÙBÁ AND ASE.T IN ANCIENT EGYPT (Asar Imhotep)


Esu: The Revenge Of Bishop Ajayi Crowther (Remi Oyeyemi)

This 4+years old thread resurrected! GOD.
I've been up most night reading the early pages.
@Pastor AIO, Eku ojo lai lai o. Krayola nko o?

Mowire: This 4+years old thread resurrected! GOD.
I've been up most night reading the early pages.
@Pastor AIO, Eku ojo lai lai o. Krayola nko o?

Greetings Mowire, It's been up to 3 days, and one day added. I hope you have gained some erudition and some spiritual maturity in the time that has ensued.

Krayola has abandoned us. I haven't heard from him in about 2 years.

Anyway, Blessings!!

Pastor AIO: For Yoruba this world is the Marketplace and Heaven is Home.

So after going to the market in the morning everybody returns home when evening comes.

Heaven is the world of Possibility. The world of Potentiality.

The role of humans is to bring the things in heaven down to earth. Earth is the world of Actuality.

We therefore bring events from Potential into Actual. Everything that can ever happen therefore exists in Heaven. Whether it will Actually happen on earth depends on if Man can successful transfer it from Heaven to earth.

Even man, when he dies, is transferred back to heaven the world of potentials/potencies/Power.

Dear friends:
Dear friend Pastor AIO:
As usual, your exposures are excellent.
I understand that in the Yoruba concept, Orun (heaven)* and Aiye (living world) were joined. In those days, men and Orissa shared space. It is very correct view that Aiye is a market, a transitory place.
Exist also the concept that everything that exists in Aiye has its double in Orun.
The latter view may merit further development.

* In realities, translate Orun as "heaven" in the sense of the term Catholic or Muslim is not correct.

Great Topic and discussion, enjoying it.

A compeletly new documentary on Ifá and other African spiritual belief systems from the perspective of Africans in Africa and the Diaspora.

Viwe this trailer!!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LqxMegWSqI

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What does the È sound in Èṣú mean/stand for?

What is the meaning of Iye?

What is the meaning of Iye Aṣẹ Iye?

amor4ce: What does the È sound in Èṣú mean/stand for?

Dear friend:
I do not speak Yoruba, my support is based on having heard the word many times.
Eshu is accentuated in the last letter (u), and as far as I know, means "sphere", besides referring to the deity communicator (Aiye-Orun) of that name.
The pronunciation would be "Eshú"

amor4ce: What is the meaning of Iye?

What is the meaning of Iye Aṣẹ Iye?

Dear friend.
I go back to clarify that I do not speak Yoruba, but try to help.
Iye: it could be price, cost, value.
Asé: It could be translated as vital energy
I hope some Yoruba brother corrected me.

A relative did say it has to do with existence - "I exist" or "I am". I think some others tried to translate Iye Aṣẹ Iye as "I am that I am" or "I am who I am".


Ptolemeus, your posts on Nairaland are interesting to read and refreshing.

amor4ce: A relative did say it has to do with existence - "I exist" or "I am". I think some others tried to translate Iye Aṣẹ Iye as "I am that I am" or "I am who I am".


Ptolemeus, your posts on Nairaland are interesting to read and refreshing.

Thank you very much, dear friend!
Believe me it is difficult to translate everything! But I love to share, and meet nice people like you.

I insist that I do not understand Yoruba, but depending on the grammatical accent, we have:
Iye = number, price. cost
Iye = Memory, mind
Iye = life, living
The word "asé", it is difficult to translate, I personally associate it as vital energy, blessing ...
You may then have something like "I live, blessing, alive!, Or" being alive is a blessing "or something similar.
The Yoruba language is very descriptive and (I would say even poetic).
We should also address whether any of those words is a contraction, very typical of the Yoruba.
Please, if there is a Yoruba brother in the thread, give us help.
It is a daring me to try and translate Yoruba ...
But the spirit of the forum is to help each other right?
Thank you for your noble attitude and kindness
A hug!

^^^
IYE also means mother.

Ptolomeus:
Iye = number, price. cost
Iye = Memory, mind
Iye = life, living
The word "asé", it is difficult to translate, I personally associate it as vital energy, blessing ...
You may then have something like "I live, blessing, alive!, Or" being alive is a blessing "or something similar.

Is the IYE in Yemoja "mother" or "life, living"?
Is it possible that the "Y" in Yoruba refers to IYE?

Somehow, I have had difficulty in learning the Yoruba language, my mother tongue.

Ashe Cultural Arts Center
http://www.ashecac.org/main/

amor4ce:

Is the IYE in Yemoja "mother" or "life, living"?
Is it possible that the "Y" in Yoruba refers to IYE?

Somehow, I have had difficulty in learning the Yoruba language, my mother tongue.

Dear friend.
I insist that I do not speak Yoruba, I just I have some ideas, and my only intention is to help.
As far as I know, the word "mother" stands for "Iya"
We entoonces, Iemojá referred to the term "odo iyá" which means "mother whose children are fish."
"Iya mi" = my mother
"Iya mi Osoronga" = Mother of birds
"Iyá Oloode" = Honorary Title (Osun), mother of the market.
Anyway, I insist that the brothers who speak Yoruba have the last word.
The Yoruba language is complex. It has different dialects contractions that make it difficult to perform the analysis of words (eg cloth Orisa Orisanla = Orisa of the cloth white; Iamsa (Iansa) = Iyá Mesan, mother of nine children, etc..) And has a structure very descriptive, almost poetic.
Again I ask for help from the Yoruba brothers.