I was pondering this morning about murder , you know , with all the disturbing front page articles on murder and the gruesome pictures shown. I started thinking , how can people be so heartless and lacking in empathy to the extent of not just killing a fellow being but doing so in a manner that is savagely barbaric. These murderers must have mental health issues, anger problems or just plain evil built into their DNA.


Following this thinking, I began to wonder, but what about abortion, is it murder and if yes, is there a difference between a murderer who kills a grown man or woman, and someone who aborts a fetus.

Few things to consider about the Fetus

- The fetus is in a sort of oblivious state of being as it pertains to consciousness
- The fetus is not fully formed as a human being, so perhaps may not yet be a human being
- The fetus may be the result of a rape or unintended consequences ( such as intercourse between two careless people )
- The fetus may possess a deformity that if allowed to fully mature will result in a life of pain.


But there are some similarities between abortion and murder

- They are both premeditated
- They are both done for selfish reasons
- They both have expected and unintended consequences.

Considering this brief narrative, what do you think,

- Is abortion on the same level of evil as murder
- Is there a special case where abortion is permissible
- Is abortion is not murder regardless ?


Lets discuss

SAME NI

frosbel2:
I was pondering this morning about murder , you know , with all the disturbing front page articles on murder and the gruesome pictures shown. I started thinking , how can people be so heartless and lacking in empathy to the extent of not just killing a fellow being but doing so in a manner that is savagely barbaric. These murderers must have mental health issues, anger problems or just plain evil built into their DNA.

Following this thinking, I began to wonder, but what about abortion, is it murder and if yes, is there a difference between a murderer who kills a grown man or woman, and someone who aborts a fetus.

Few things to consider about the Fetus

- The fetus is in a sort of oblivious state of being as it pertains to consciousness
- The fetus is not fully formed as a human being, so perhaps may not yet be a human being
- The fetus may be the result of a rape or unintended consequences ( such as intercourse between two careless people )
- The fetus may possess a deformity that if allowed to fully mature will result in a life of pain.


But there are some similarities between abortion and murder

- They are both premeditated
- They are both done for selfish reasons
- They both have expected and unintended consequences.

Considering this brief narrative, what do you think,

- Is abortion on the same level of evil as murder
- Is there a special case where abortion is permissible
- Is abortion is not murder regardless ?


Lets discuss

cc
LordReed
MuttleyLaff
Originakalokalo
EdifiedHebrew
Asuustrike1
Ihedinobi3
Malvisguy212
Janettee
XxSabrinaxX
MrPresident1
HappyPagan

Let me throw this one too in the mix. The court judge and the hangman or noose man that carries out the judge's death sentence is that murder or not. At the end of the day, each one of us, needs the services of the best representative there is, to defend our corner for us and on our behalf explain the circumstances surrounding each and every thought, deed and actions we carried out

MuttleyLaff:
Let me throw this one too in the mix. The court judge and the hangman or noose man that carries out the judge's death sentence is that murder or not. At the end of the day, each one of us, needs the services of the best representative there is, to defend our corner for us and on our behalf explain the circumstances surrounding each and every thought, deed and actions we carried out

If a court judge sentences a person to death and the noose man carries it out on the basis of the guilt of that convict , it is not murder, it is called JUSTICE !!

Besides what does this have to do with the article ?

Christians and circular arguments.

Jesus said ;
"Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one " - Matthew 5:37

frosbel2:
If a court judge sentences a person to death and the noose man carries it out on the basis of the guilt of that convict , it is not murder, it is called JUSTICE !!

Besides what does this have to do with the article ?

[s]Christians and circular arguments.
Jesus said ;
"Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one " - Matthew 5:37 [/s]

You are at liberty to ignore where it was typed it is added to the mix to make it more exciting.

This is not a question that can be given a binary answer to. It is important to know that, especially in the West, decisions taken to go the route of abortion are invariably informed and usually responsible ones. Also the devil knows how to quote the Bible, especially when busy asking trick and indicting questions.

frosbel2:



Few things to consider about the Fetus

I do not have much interest in your thread having gone over it like a thousand times before. But there are some absurd assertions that caught my attention that i feel should be corrected.

- The fetus is in a sort of oblivious state of being as it pertains to consciousness

1. It has been shown that fetus feel pain
2. It has been shown they recoil at discomfort.

Therefore, they are not oblivious to external stimuli not even to the threat of death.

3. Obliviousness is not an argument still to kill a human or we could all agree it is morally permissible to kill a comatose patient because, he is oblivious.

- The fetus is not fully formed as a human being, so perhaps may not yet be a human being

This is basically the most absurd assertion from this thread. There is no such a thing as a fully formed human. A human is a state of being not a stage stop conflating the two.

There is never a time something that isn't human becomes human at some point, anything that isn't human isn't human and cannot be human. A human is always a human but goes through several stages of being human.

Human adult
Human adolescent
Human child
Human baby
Human fetus

These are different stages of being human but in all these stages only one thing is constant, human.

An adult is no more human than an adolescent and thus down the chain.

So please, there is no such thing as a fully formed human, unless you should give us the definition of human on which you base this premise.

- The fetus may be the result of a rape or unintended consequences ( such as intercourse between two careless people )

Cause and effect? It is not the child's fault at any instance.

- The fetus may possess a deformity that if allowed to fully mature will result in a life of pain.

What stops us from killing out every deformed person on earth now whether they are born or not?

^^^

Thanks for your non interest interest.

So :

- Is abortion on the same level of evil as murder
- Is there a special case where abortion is permissible
- Is abortion is not murder regardless ?

I will address the other points when time permits.

frosbel2:
^^^

Thanks for your non interest interest.

So :

- Is abortion on the same level of evil as murder

Yes. The very premise behind our moral abhorrence of murder is the belief in the sacredness of human life.
Premeditated termination of a human life at every stage is just as abhorrable and is exactly the evil of murder.

Human laws are meant to protect the weak, balance the chances of the weak to survive in a society of the strong, it is an irony that we are leaning towards abandoning humans at a stage they are the weakest of us.

The fundamental point of our moral system is broken at this

- Is there a special case where abortion is permissible

Only special cases where killing a human is. Excusable more like it.

-accidental
-self defence. (Meaning the life of the other is in imminent mortal danger)

- Is abortion is not murder regardless ?

it is in the moral sense of the word.

I will address the other points when time permits.

ok

frosbel2:


If a court judge sentences a person to death and the noose man carries it out on the basis of the guilt of that convict , it is not murder, it is called JUSTICE !!

Besides what does this have to do with the article ?

Christians and circular arguments.

Jesus said ;
"Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ Anything more comes from the evil one " - Matthew 5:37

I love very much your comment in the bold text. Makes me think about your arguments against Hell.

frosbel2:
I was pondering this morning about murder , you know , with all the disturbing front page articles on murder and the gruesome pictures shown. I started thinking , how can people be so heartless and lacking in empathy to the extent of not just killing a fellow being but doing so in a manner that is savagely barbaric. These murderers must have mental health issues, anger problems or just plain evil built into their DNA.


Following this thinking, I began to wonder, but what about abortion, is it murder and if yes, is there a difference between a murderer who kills a grown man or woman, and someone who aborts a fetus.

Few things to consider about the Fetus

- The fetus is in a sort of oblivious state of being as it pertains to consciousness
- The fetus is not fully formed as a human being, so perhaps may not yet be a human being
- The fetus may be the result of a rape or unintended consequences ( such as intercourse between two careless people )
- The fetus may possess a deformity that if allowed to fully mature will result in a life of pain.


But there are some similarities between abortion and murder

- They are both premeditated
- They are both done for selfish reasons
- They both have expected and unintended consequences.

Considering this brief narrative, what do you think,

- Is abortion on the same level of evil as murder
- Is there a special case where abortion is permissible
- Is abortion is not murder regardless ?


Lets discuss

To begin, I assume that you invited me because you are interested in hearing the biblical point of view. I have little interest in the political issues involved.

Clearly, abortion is wrong by the Bible's standards. The reason, however, is not quite the same as is commonly thought.

The human person according to the Bible only comes into existence when God creates a human spirit and puts it into the human body that He has formed (Genesis 2:7). So, the fetus is not really alive even at full term. It is only at birth that a human being comes into existence.

However, there can be no living human without a body to put the human spirit in. So, obviously, that fetus is still critical to the existence of the human being. So, abortion is not acceptable at all by biblical standards.

As such, only in exceptional cases should it be countenanced at all. Such cases will be worked out by the person in the unique situation. But, obviously, the reason cannot be so frivolous as "I don't want to have a baby right now".

It's my body. If I want to kill off a part or all of it, your opinion does not count.

Abortion can't be likened to murder, because a fetus isn't a developed human being.

Abortion is not on the same level of murder. It is not a crime, because there are valid, justifiable reasons to have one. Said reasons include, but are not limited to:

1. Stillbirth: The baby has died in the womb, and rather than forcing the mother to endure the rest of the pregnancy, with possible serious side effects due to dead tissue, the doctors recommend an abortion or induced labor to get it out.
2. Non-viable: The foetus will not survive outside of the womb, or the chances of living are so minuscule as to be almost impossible. Again, rather than forcing the mother through a pregnancy that will only result in a dead body, an abortion is obtained.
3. Rape/Incest: Already traumatised by severe abuse, the pregnant person has no desire to be further traumatised by carrying and birthing a living reminder of their attacker. Nor do they want to give said abuser a chance to sue for joint custody or family visitation, which happens far more often that most sane people would think.
4. Serious Health Risks/Complications: Pregnancies are not easy. The maternal mortality rate is much lower than it used to be, but ectopic pregnancies, mothers too young to safely bear a child without serious consequences to their health, people with pre-existing medical conditions that could be fatally enhanced by pregnancy, etc. still exist.

I know people who are in the last category. To carry a pregnancy to term, one would have to completely forego life-saving medication. They would most likely not survive long enough for the foetus to reach viability. They can take all the precautions in the world, but abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control. If they became pregnant, they would get an abortion, because not getting one would gain them nothing but a coffin and six feet of dirt.

You can't say that preserving one's life should be considered a crime.

Interesting comments , will respond shortly !

johnydon22:
I do not have much interest in your thread having gone over it like a thousand times before. But there are some absurd assertions that caught my attention that i feel should be corrected.



1. It has been shown that fetus feel pain
2. It has been shown they recoil at discomfort.

Therefore, they are not oblivious to external stimuli not even to the threat of death.

3. Obliviousness is not an argument still to kill a human or we could all agree it is morally permissible to kill a comatose patient because, he is oblivious.

This is basically the most absurd assertion from this thread. There is no such a thing as a fully formed human. A human is a state of being not a stage stop conflating the two.

There is never a time something that isn't human becomes human at some point, anything that isn't human isn't human and cannot be human. A human is always a human but goes through several stages of being human.

Human adult
Human adolescent
Human child
Human baby
Human fetus

These are different stages of being human but in all these stages only one thing is constant, human.

An adult is no more human than an adolescent and thus down the chain.

So please, there is no such thing as a fully formed human, unless you should give us the definition of human on which you base this premise.

Cause and effect? It is not the child's fault at any instance.


What stops us from killing out every deformed person on earth now whether they are born or not?

Can I give you a hug through the phone?
Never came across a pro-life piece as convincing as this before

Ihedinobi3:

To begin, I assume that you invited me because you are interested in hearing the biblical point of view. I have little interest in the political issues involved.

Clearly, abortion is wrong by the Bible's standards. The reason, however, is not quite the same as is commonly thought.

The human person according to the Bible only comes into existence when God creates a human spirit and puts it into the human body that He has formed (Genesis 2:7). So, the fetus is not really alive even at full term. It is only at birth that a human being comes into existence.

However, there can be no living human without a body to put the human spirit in. So, obviously, that fetus is still critical to the existence of the human being. So, abortion is not acceptable at all by biblical standards.

As such, only in exceptional cases should it be countenanced at all. Such cases will be worked out by the person in the unique situation. But, obviously, the reason cannot be so frivolous as "I don't want to have a baby right now".

Aside circumstances were the attempted delivery of the child will pose a threatening to the mother's life (eg ectopic pregnancy),is there any permissible grounds for abortion?....can you kindly give an example

Michellekabod1:

Aside circumstances were the attempted delivery of the child will pose a threatening to the mother's life (eg ectopic pregnancy),is there any permissible grounds for abortion?....can you kindly give an example

As I said, the person in the situation will be the one to make the call. The only thing absolutely clear from the Bible is that abortion is not permissible on frivolous grounds. Beyond that, it's a gray area where every believer has to make the best choice they can with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in keeping with their developing understanding of the Bible.

[quote author=johnydon22 post=74889122]

1. It has been shown that fetus feel pain

Just looked up some information which suggests that a fetus starts to feel pain at 8 weeks or thereabout. Difficult to say with ultimate precision.

2. It has been shown they recoil at discomfort.

Possibly from 8 weeks

Therefore, they are not oblivious to external stimuli not even to the threat of death.

Possibly from 8 weeks

3. Obliviousness is not an argument still to kill a human or we could all agree it is morally permissible to kill a comatose patient because, he is oblivious.

You are coming from the position that I am pro-abortion , which I am not . Calm down and lets have a constructive discussion.

I had an uncle who was comatose for a week or so after a heart operation, and the consultant told the family there was no hope of recovery. The family listened to the medical findings and prognosis , and decided to remove his tubes. Is that murder ? NO. Not all cases of
comatose should be treated with the same brush, some comatose patients will recover due to proper functioning of bodily organs, others will not. Extending the suffering of a comatose patient for the sake of manufactured morality is selfish and unnecessary. Similarly , a woman may see the birth of a severely deformed child as not worth it , for the avoidance of unnecessary pain and suffering .

This is basically the most absurd assertion from this thread. There is no such a thing as a fully formed human. A human is a state of being not a stage stop conflating the two.

There is never a time something that isn't human becomes human at some point, anything that isn't human isn't human and cannot be human. A human is always a human but goes through several stages of being human.

You know what I mean by fully formed human , right ? Or are you deviously trying to build another straw man. Fully formed is when all the organs have fully developed, sensory organs are fully functional and the baby ready to be birthed. Nobody said the Fetus is not a human fetus or is not of human origin.

[s]Human adult
Human adolescent
Human child
Human baby[/s]
Human fetus - I concur on this point, though on the basis that the fetus is not a fully formed human being , if you get what I mean, i.e organs not fully developed, sensory organs still budding and totally oblivious to its surrounding from a point of perception.

Cause and effect? It is not the child's fault at any instance.

Sorry, we have to digress here, a woman who has raped does not have to keep the fetus of the rapist. What ?? To suggest that the woman raped should or must keep the baby is silly, inconsiderate and arrogant. It is the WOMAN's decision , not yours or mine.

What stops us from killing out every deformed person on earth now whether they are born or not?

Straw man argument. We are talking about deformed in the womb !!

If a woman realises that the fetus is deformed in a way that will make it's existence one of unending stress, pain and sorrow, she should do what she has to do. It's easy to sit on your high horse of morality and make these sort of bland statements when you do not have to wear their shoes. People are hypocrites, they will change their morality to suit their convenience at the drop of a hat if they find themselves in a similar dilemma.

"Good"/"Bad" don't always describe situations/acts appropriately.
Maybe we should also make use of "avoidable/inevitable/safer/advisable" to describe certain things.
I think doctors should know when certain things are inevitable/advisable/safer... and abortion is one of those things.
Health matters can be more complicated than something we can easily describe as right or wrong.

[quote author=XxSabrinaxX post=74894768]Abortion is not on the same level of murder. It is not a crime, because there are valid, justifiable reasons to have one. Said reasons include, but are not limited to:

1. Stillbirth: The baby has died in the womb, and rather than forcing the mother to endure the rest of the pregnancy, with possible serious side effects due to dead tissue, the doctors recommend an abortion or induced labor to get it out.

Yep, this one is a non starter - has to be done ASAP.

2. Non-viable: The foetus will not survive outside of the womb, or the chances of living are so minuscule as to be almost impossible. Again, rather than forcing the mother through a pregnancy that will only result in a dead body, an abortion is obtained.

Again, right on the money

3. Rape/Incest: Already traumatised by severe abuse, the pregnant person has no desire to be further traumatised by carrying and birthing a living reminder of their attacker. Nor do they want to give said abuser a chance to sue for joint custody or family visitation, which happens far more often that most sane people would think.

The woman's decision here, we should respect that, though some moral saints think it is their duty to dictate what people do with their bodies. It's easy to make judgements when you may never have to experience what it is like to be violated and live with the trauma and consequences.

4. Serious Health Risks/Complications: Pregnancies are not easy. The maternal mortality rate is much lower than it used to be, but ectopic pregnancies, mothers too young to safely bear a child without serious consequences to their health, people with pre-existing medical conditions that could be fatally enhanced by pregnancy, etc. still exist

Yep

I know people who are in the last category. To carry a pregnancy to term, one would have to completely forego life-saving medication. They would most likely not survive long enough for the foetus to reach viability. They can take all the precautions in the world, but abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control. If they became pregnant, they would get an abortion, because not getting one would gain them nothing but a coffin and six feet of dirt.

Concur



As always for a young lady, you make well informed inferences in a manner that is both articulate and succinct, and based on sound reasoning.

[quote author=frosbel2 post=74898661][/quote]
Thank you

Ihedinobi3:

To begin, I assume that you invited me because you are interested in hearing the biblical point of view. I have little interest in the political issues involved.

Yes I am. FYI - I am not anti - Bible , more like anti- some parts of the Bible, lol.

Clearly, abortion is wrong by the Bible's standards. The reason, however, is not quite the same as is commonly thought.

Wrong in all cases irrespective of the circumstances ?

The human person according to the Bible only comes into existence when God creates a human spirit and puts it into the human body that He has formed (Genesis 2:7). So, the fetus is not really alive even at full term. It is only at birth that a human being comes into existence

I disagree. At full term and some time prior, the baby is fully developed , has achieved a certain level of 'self awareness' and is in existence. Does not need a so called non-existent human spirit to exist.

We are just self aware 'flesh' with a higher level of intelligence that ordinary animals.

Isaiah 40:6
A voice says, "Cry out!" And I asked, "What should I cry out?" "All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field.

However, there can be no living human without a body to put the human spirit in. So, obviously, that fetus is still critical to the existence of the human being. So, abortion is not acceptable at all by biblical standards.

I think you might be misconstruing consciousness to the imparting of a human spirit at birth , which in my opinion is not true or supported by your bible.

As such, only in exceptional cases should it be countenanced at all. Such cases will be worked out by the person in the unique situation. But, obviously, the reason cannot be so frivolous as "I don't want to have a baby right now".

Okay for the sake of clarify, I am not pro-abortion except under certain circumstances. You know there are extremists who do not think that abortion should be permitted under any circumstance.

HellVictorinho:
"Good"/"Bad" don't always describe situations/acts appropriately.
Maybe we should also make use of "avoidable/inevitable/safer/advisable" to describe certain things.
I think doctors should know when certain things are inevitable/advisable/safer... and abortion is one of those things.
Health matters can be more complicated than something we can easily describe as right or wrong.

Well said Pal !!

MuttleyLaff:
You are at liberty to ignore where it was typed it is added to the mix to make it more exciting.

This is not a question that can be given a binary answer to. It is important to know that, especially in the West, decisions taken to go the route of abortion are invariably informed and usually responsible ones. Also the devil knows how to quote the Bible, especially when busy asking trick and indicting questions.

Others answered the questions posed , you are busy labelling me with the devil tag

smh

frosbel2:


Yes I am. FYI - I am not anti - Bible , more like anti- some parts of the Bible, lol.



Wrong in all cases irrespective of the circumstances ?



I disagree. At full term and some time prior, the bay is fully developed , has achieved a certain level of 'self awareness' and is in existence. Does not need a so called non-existent human spirit to exist.

We are just self aware 'flesh' with a higher level of intelligence that ordinary animals.

Isaiah 40:6
A voice says, "Cry out!" And I asked, "What should I cry out?" "All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field.



I think you might be misconstruing consciousness to the imparting of a human spirit at birth , which is in my opinion is not true or supported by your bible.



Okay for the sake of clarify, I am not pro-abortion except under certain circumstances. You know there are extremists who do not think that abortion should be permitted under any circumstance.

As a doctor, you dare not quote Bibles.
When we talk about abortion, we must not forget that TWO people are greatly involved..
If you are concerned with the baby that you haven't seen as regards its form and condition, you should also consider the carrier of the baby whose condition should be obvious.
If you can determine the conditions of the TWO people involved, LOGIC should do the rest medically.
Morals are morals.
They are not solutions.
They are behaviors that people describe as morally upright for different reasons.
But 'morally upright' is not the same as 'medically advisable'.

budaatum:
It's my body. If I want to kill off a part or all of it, your opinion does not count.

You are female then, aren't you? I wondered what was going on when MuttleyLaff insisted that you're a man.

Ihedinobi3:

As I said, the person in the situation will be the one to make the call. The only thing absolutely clear from the Bible is that abortion is not permissible on frivolous grounds. Beyond that, it's a gray area where every believer has to make the best choice they can with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in keeping with their developing understanding of the Bible.

Surprisingly and to my utter astonishment, I agree with you here especially as per the bolded

Still , it is the woman's call to make though it may not be permissible , and it is also her lot to live with the consequences.

frosbel2:
Others answered the questions posed, you are busy labelling me with the devil tag
smh

Others replies prove my response to be right, that the question(s) cannot be given a binary answer to. Also that it is important to know that, especially in the West, decisions taken to go the route of abortion are invariably informed and usually responsible ones.

If the cap fits, wear it, when I typed the devil knows how to quote the Bible, especially when busy asking trick and indicting questions. You are at liberty to selectively read what you want to read and/or ignore remarks that don't fit your agenda. You know what, your demons don't sleep under your bed, they sleep inside your head.

MuttleyLaff:
The replies prove to be right, my response, that question that cannot be given a binary answer to. Also that it is important to know that, especially in the West, decisions taken to go the route of abortion are invariably informed and usually responsible ones.

If the cap fits, wear it, when I typed the devil knows how to quote the Bible, especially when busy asking trick and indicting questions. You are at liberty to selectively read what you want to read and/or ignore remarks that don't fit your agenda. You know what, your demons don't sleep under your bed, they sleep inside your head.

Oh common - tell me you are more mature than the nonsense you just wrote up there ( bolded )

frosbel2:


Yes I am. FYI - I am not anti - Bible , more like anti- some parts of the Bible, lol.

No difference here.

frosbel2:
Wrong in all cases irrespective of the circumstances ?

The end of my post answered this question.

frosbel2:
I disagree. At full term and some time prior, the baby is fully developed , has achieved a certain level of 'self awareness' and is in existence. Does not need a so called non-existent human spirit to exist.

We are just self aware 'flesh' with a higher level of intelligence that ordinary animals.

Isaiah 40:6
A voice says, "Cry out!" And I asked, "What should I cry out?" "All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field.

I am not at all interested in your correction of the Bible. You asked a question and I answered you. You are welcome to believe it or disbelieve it. The rewards and consequences are all yours.

As for the passage in Isaiah, of course we are flesh. Doesn't mean we are not spirits too. As a matter of fact, the body without the spirit is dead. If you know how to explain self-aware flesh without a spirit, carry on. There are human bodies in morgues around the world which wonder at such a term.

frosbel2:
I think you might be misconstruing consciousness to the imparting of a human spirit at birth , which in my opinion is not true or supported by your bible.

Like I said, I don't consider you intelligent of knowing enough to correct the Bible, so don't waste your energy.

As I said, Genesis 2:7 says what it says. It is not an opinion of any kind.

frosbel2:
Okay for the sake of clarify, I am not pro-abortion except under certain circumstances. You know there are extremists who do not think that abortion should be permitted under any circumstance.

Doesn't matter a whit to me what you are.

Ihedinobi3:
You are female then, aren't you? I wondered what was going on when MuttleyLaff insisted that you're a man.

You'll soon get adequately used to budaatum, especially for example, when he awakes his anima and talks of his feminine side when making a point

frosbel2:


Oh common - tell me you are more mature than the nonsense you just wrote up there ( bolded )

I knew you'll be selective again in your reading my remark about "Others' replies, prove my response to be right, that the question(s) cannot be given a binary answer to. Also that it is important to know that, especially in the West, decisions taken to go the route of abortion are invariably informed and usually responsible ones." and rather choose to come up with the above

Oh please tell me, you dont have your demons. Ask budaatum, he'll tell you everyone has demons