MuttleyLaff:
"²Joshua said to all the people, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says:
‘Long ago your ancestors, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates River and worshiped other gods.
³But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the Euphrates and led him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. I gave him Isaac"
- Joshua 24:2-3

Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child?

Before answering the question, let's acknowledge and get a few things into perspective first
1/ Abram, before becoming Abraham, was a worshipper of idols, an idolater, in short.
2/ Child sacrificing to these idols was a common and prevailing practice then and Abram was accustomed to it
3/ Deuteronomy 12:30-31 was formalized 400 years plus after the historic Abraham's near-sacrifice of his son Isaac
4/ It is a well known historical and documentated fact that Abram tithed in line with the prevailing Mesopotamia custom to tithe
Artifacts shows and testifies to heathens practice of tithing. Like few other things, tithing was a status quo, same as child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children with Abraham then.

People then and even to date, are doing detestable things God hates and they really, are things, deserving intense dislikes. They are, things like, people believing that by performing child sacrifices and/or carrying out ritualistic killing of children they are pleasing or appeasing the god(s). Off track, another is, performing ritual sex acts, allegedly to get blessings, where males offer themselves as temple prostitutes to patrons for sacred sexual rituals purpose(s) believing they will receive divine blessing, favour, power etcetera at the end or back of it. Anyway back on track, from the slight diversion, so the reason why God told Abraham to sacrifice his child, funnily and ultimately enough, is to end the disgusting, foolish and senseless child human sacrifice practice.

A new Sheriff is in town, a new Person has come to power, the new Person has come into Abraham's life and is going to make changes. This new authority figure in Abraham's life, is taking charge, laying down the rules and letting Abraham know that the line on child sacrifice(s) is drawn. Sure Abraham was tested, to see, if he will carry out the command but fact is, God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with the practice and so, we have it that, ultimately did not allow the sacrifice to happen and so the experience, presented Abraham with the knowledge, the understanding and the discernment that God is not into the business of child sacrifices nor into ritualistic killing of children, done supposedly by those looking for wealth, riches, fame and power or done to curry divine favour from these wicked and cruel acts

Many wont see the wood for the trees, as "test loyal servant... ask him to do something the god hates" is a red herring. It doesnt have to make sense to mortals, God is more sensible than the most sensible ever lived or living man

He does already know the outcome HenryDion, but does the testee know?

Self-discovery, is finding oneself, its taking the journey within, discovering who you truly are and finding out all the mystries that lies within you. Abraham, from that experience, got to know and learned many lessons that day.

"A wise man, can learn more from a foolish question, than a fool, can learn from a wise answer."
- Bruce Lee
cc CodeTemplar, tintingz,

You would have done well to just claim Abram mistook his other gods for Yahweh!

CodeTemplar:
The man vowed and fulfilled his vow? How is that God's fault?

budaatum:

This is a stupid question! If Abraham sacrificed Isaac without God telling him to do so, wouldn't that be murder?!

thank you my brother. that is how the op sound.

MuttleyLaff:
"²Joshua said to all the people, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says:
‘Long ago your ancestors, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates River and worshiped other gods.
³But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the Euphrates and led him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. I gave him Isaac"
- Joshua 24:2-3

Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child?

Before answering the question, let's acknowledge and get a few things into perspective first
1/ Abram, before becoming Abraham, was a worshipper of idols, an idolater, in short.
2/ Child sacrificing to these idols was a common and prevailing practice then and Abram was accustomed to it
3/ Deuteronomy 12:30-31 was formalized 400 years plus after the historic Abraham's near-sacrifice of his son Isaac
4/ It is a well known historical and documentated fact that Abram tithed in line with the prevailing Mesopotamia custom to tithe
Artifacts shows and testifies to heathens practice of tithing. Like few other things, tithing was a status quo, same as child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children with Abraham then.

People then and even to date, are doing detestable things God hates and they really, are things, deserving intense dislikes. They are, things like, people believing that by performing child sacrifices and/or carrying out ritualistic killing of children they are pleasing or appeasing the god(s). Off track, another is, performing ritual sex acts, allegedly to get blessings, where males offer themselves as temple prostitutes to patrons for sacred sexual rituals purpose(s) believing they will receive divine blessing, favour, power etcetera at the end or back of it. Anyway back on track, from the slight diversion, so the reason why God told Abraham to sacrifice his child, funnily and ultimately enough, is to end the disgusting, foolish and senseless child human sacrifice practice.

A new Sheriff is in town, a new Person has come to power, the new Person has come into Abraham's life and is going to make changes. This new authority figure in Abraham's life, is taking charge, laying down the rules and letting Abraham know that the line on child sacrifice(s) is drawn. Sure Abraham was tested, to see, if he will carry out the command but fact is, God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with the practice and so, we have it that, ultimately did not allow the sacrifice to happen and so the experience, presented Abraham with the knowledge, the understanding and the discernment that God is not into the business of child sacrifices nor into ritualistic killing of children, done supposedly by those looking for wealth, riches, fame and power or done to curry divine favour from these wicked and cruel acts

Many wont see the wood for the trees, as "test loyal servant... ask him to do something the god hates" is a red herring. It doesnt have to make sense to mortals, God is more sensible than the most sensible ever lived or living man

He does already know the outcome HenryDion, but does the testee know?

Self-discovery, is finding oneself, its taking the journey within, discovering who you truly are and finding out all the mystries that lies within you. Abraham, from that experience, got to know and learned many lessons that day.

"A wise man, can learn more from a foolish question, than a fool, can learn from a wise answer."
- Bruce Lee
cc CodeTemplar, tintingz,

I had to like this because it is a more sensible response compared to what code templer has been saying.

However I still see some faults... Now, the events looks more like God was testing Abraham's faith, or am I wrong?
But ur explanation is tilting towards the fact that God just wanted to prove to Abraham that child sacrifice is wrong and stop it.

This are two distinct reasons why God would ask Abraham to kill his son pls clarify. As for me, I am concerned with Abraham's intent to kill for God whatever God's reason for the instruction was.

LordReed:
It has and it damn sure doesn't look like this your god has any intelligence beyond what the men that wrote the stories were capable of. We see no sign that anything in the bible was intelligently thought out with an eye to the future contrary to what christians would have us believe.

Trust you to always throw in distractions, go on a tangent and veer off the topic clutching at straws especially when running out of steam

LordReed:
As for its stance on child sacrifice, you said that it was not written prior to its command to Abraham, were you not trying to imply that it gave it the leverage to so order?

Oh, are we back on to the topic now?
Mr LordReed, please give an instance of God ever accepting child sacrifice, accepted burnt human offerring or accepted ritualistic killing of children if you are unable to, then do us and everybody else a favour of remaining forever silent on the " God Told Abraham To Sacrifice His Child" matter

LordReed:
My guy, you know that if the police got a hold of a document outlining how a "god" commanded you to kill someone, you'll be sent to an asylum, if not tried under different laws for like terrorism and threat to life.

Different times, different season LordReed. Seasons come and go LordReed, and that season of "a "god" commanded you to kill someone" has way back long gone.

Dantedasz:
I know religionists develop selective amnesia when confronted with the facts of delusion but this has got to take the cake

I agree with you that religionists do develop selective amnesia when confronted with the facts of delusion but bizarrely enough, this matter here, is about you confirmedly being confused and so publicly displaying your colossal ignorance over Jephthah and his vows.

Dantedasz:
There are two verses in the Bible where Yahweh appears to condone burning human beings as sacrifice to his insatiable lust for killings.

Hiding behind the words "appears to condone" you slander Yahweh with shameless falsehoods and unsubstantiated not to be relied upon claims

Dantedasz:
1. Abraham and his son Isaac. Genesis chapter 22 verse 9.

2. Jephthah and his unnamed daughter. Judges chapter 11.

It is there in your Bible. Read it. There is no wriggling out of this one.

Your intellectual arrogance betrays you and you simply are chasing a wild goose with your ignorance here Dantedasz. If Yahweh really appears to condone burning human beings as sacrifice to his insatiable lust for killings, then there should at least be two dead bodies, so where are the two dead bodies, where are the burnt human beings sacrifice or killing?

Dantedasz:
Let us assume the case of Abraham and Isaac was a test by an OMNISCIENT entity to test it's creations free will, what about the second case?
The omniscient creator stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac by providing an animal to be sacrificed in Isaac's case but this same loving creator fails to do the same in the second case of Jephthah's unnamed daughter?
And you can see how sexist the writers of the Bible were, because in the case of Jephthah's daughter, her name does not need to be provided since she is just a statistic in Yahweh's horror movie of killings and burning of human beings.

Dantedasz:
As for the YouTube video's, you may call them useless or stupid but when you watch them with a critical mind, the simplicity of those videos exposes the hypocrisy of the Bible.

Why are you guys so fond of reading texts wrongly? It is not only bible texts you guys misread, even pieces of texts in my comments too you read incorrectly as well.

Dantedasz please tell me, where and when did I call the YouTube videos useless or stupid? Huh?
Remember what I typed was: "Dantedasz and his worthless YouTube animated video again. The only person the clip has any worth to is nonstampcollector because of the sweet kerching sound when YouTube sends him crispy dollar cheques at the end of the month" What you dont know about nonstampcollector, is that he is at the end of the month, laughs all the way to the bank when he goes to withdraw, and its all down to creating those animated clips, with extremely amusing, killingly funny entertaining satire. The downside is the regular huge gaping holes in his storylines and departure from the original narrative with distortion of fact(s). Dont read me wrong I am more of a nonstampcollector fan more than you think, as I do enjoy visiting his channel, and I do literally laugh out loud whilst watching him deviate from a fact and as he uses artistic licence to entertain.

Dantedasz:
Thou shall not kill------What is Yahweh's body count in the Bible?

Who is counting and keeping record?
Mind you, the human sacrifice that God wants, is us, to do die, to self.

Dantedasz:
Here is the passage again since according to MuttleyLaff, Jephthah did not barbecue his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh. It is there in your Bible. What a horror show.
JUDGES CHAPTER 11 VERSES 30-40.

1/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah vow to barbecue his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?
2/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah barbecued his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?

See above two simple questions, Dantedasz, why dont you and your friend LordReed respond to them and let us each and all together forensically, calmly and clinically investigate the verses to see whether or not Jephthah did vow to barbecue his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh and also see if Jephthah did or did not get to barbecuing his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh

LordReed:
When I was a Christian I struggled with this passage because it didn't gel with anything we knew of the god. So in other to make it make sense I was taught that she wasn't given as a burnt offering, she instead became a "nun". Nevermind all the other problems that interpretation throws up, the sanctity of the god was preserved. LMFAO!

Well, just as I earlier told Dantedasz, Jephthah NEVER DID NOT use his daughter as a burnt offering anyway, this is because human burnt offering is an anathema to God and Jephthah knew this and so never did he nurse any plan nor had any intention of offering God a human burnt offering. Besides burnt offering the Israelites practised, always had to do with animals anyways, and never had anything to do with human being sacrifices

Dantedasz:
I have never been able to wrap my head around the horrible story even when I was a kid. Who was he expecting to welcome him home except a human being?
Christian apologists try every dirty trick in the book to explain the incident away.
From saying Jephthah's nameless daughter became a nun, to pointing out Jephthah as a holy man who obeyed God and gave the ultimate sacrifice, to the essence of making a vow to God and keeping it.
All more astounding rubbish!

When Jephthah said: "whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it, as a burnt offering", he wasnt expecting a human being, talkless his daughter, to be the first to come out to meet him. He wasnt expecting his child, he didnt bank on his child first meeting him, so surely never had her in mind when he made that extremely rash vow, obviously done without careful and properly thought consideration of the possible consequences.
The upshot was, he tore his clothes in sorrow and anguish on sighting his daughter, because he knows according to the earlier foolish vow he made, she is now sentenced to a lifetime of celibacy, dedicated to the service of God for life, be unmarried, abstain from having and enjoying sex, hence no kids or hope of grandkids. In effect, she technically is about to become a nun. It's that harrowing enough for Jephthah, as the joy of every father, is to proudly hold the hands of their daughter down the aisle, to had over in marriage to an eligible male, but for Jephthah, this or none of that is going to happen, hence the public "tearing of his clothes" demo and bitter anguish

LordReed:
Truly astounding rubbish.

What is truly astounding rubbish, is the public display of colossal ignorance on this Jephthah matter. This Jephthah controversy has been flogged enough times over and long time laid to rest many years ago, on nairaland, so I wonder why, some are still tearing hairs out and getting hard-ons over it

Dantedasz:
When they are confronted with the absurdity of their ridiculous religious pamphlet called the Bible, they take to their heels and run away only to return surreptitiously to make amendments to their posts. There is one Catholic guy that normally runs away when confronted with superior arguments, only to come back weeks later to amend his posts under the cloak of darkness. I always see the mentions but I just chuckle and ignore him.

I had guys like that too, there is this particular poster, years ago on this same Jephthah matter on Nairaland that did exactly the same "take to heels and run away only to return surreptitiously to make amendments to his posts. Ran away when confronted with superior proposition(s), only to come back later to amend his posts under the cloak of darkness"

This particular and one poster whom I've seen again has visited this thread in the middle of the night, back then will go back to the Jephthah comments he made, and edit them after falling flat on face, when caught slipping not only misunderstanding "gender-specific pronouns" but also found wanting trying to correctly use "third person singular pronouns". The poster tried to pass "it" (i.e. a "gender-neutral pronoun'') for a human being instead of correctly using "him" or "her" (i.e. "gender-specific pronouns'')

LordReed:
Seriously? What a lame arse.

Yes, it's deserving or arousing pity to watch the arrogance of posters delighting in their ignorance of a subject matter they havent the foggiest clue about

budaatum:
You would have done well to just claim Abram mistook his other gods for Yahweh!

Abram had cut ties with his other gods, so you are mistaken to think Abram mistook his other gods for Yahweh
cc CodeTemplar, tintingz, malvisguy212

frank317:
I had to like this because it is a more sensible response compared to what code templer has been saying.

You seemingly and yet, is the only voice of reason in the so far Dantedasz CreepyBlackpool LordReed trio group

frank317:
However I still see some faults... Now, the events looks more like God was testing Abraham's faith, or am I wrong?

This, as it were, is an opportunistic moment frank317, it is a situation, akin to the proverbial killing of more than two birds with one stone, and you are right that God was testing Abraham's faith, but as a matter of fact frank317, it actually was Abraham's obedience that is being tested here. In truth, it is no different to when in the garden, Adam's obedience too, to God's word was tested. Would Abraham comply or would he not comply, was the moment of truth and self discovery, soon to be found out

frank317:
But ur explanation is tilting towards the fact that God just wanted to prove to Abraham that child sacrifice is wrong and stop it.

I am sorry and apologise, if that is how you interpreted what I typed. I never intended to give nor gave the impression that "God just wanted to prove to Abraham that child sacrifice is wrong and stop it" C'mon now frank317, you surely must be familiar with the the colloquial: "Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward", so it was with Abraham that after the test, he learned the lesson that God is not into the business of child sacrifices nor into ritualistic killing of children, done supposedly by those looking for wealth, riches, fame and power or done to curry divine favour from these wicked and cruel acts

Again I repeat, sure Abraham was tested, to see, if he will carry out the command but fact is, God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with the child sacrifice practice and so, we have it that, ultimately did not allow Abraham sacrifice Isaac and so the experience, presented Abraham with the knowledge, the understanding and the discernment that God doesnt accept child sacrifices and nor is God into ritualistic killing of children.

frank317:
This are two distinct reasons why God would ask Abraham to kill his son pls clarify. As for me, I am concerned with Abraham's intent to kill for God whatever God's reason for the instruction was.

Look at it this way frank317, knowing Abraham's cultural background and his antecedents that one can take advantage of, what would you say would be the ultimate way to test a man, that though already has a promised child, is actually now sterile, infertile and/or impotent?

Also frank317, remember the given reason in the bible, for Abraham's intent to kill for God was that, Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, from after going through the command, God was able to bring him back to life again. Also frank317, besides all those, at times, unpopular decision(s) necessarily are made when making a point to advance a change in the status quo or a behaviour
cc CodeTemplar, tintingz, malvisguy212

MuttleyLaff:
Trust you to always throw in distractions, go on a tangent and veer off the topic clutching at straws especially when running out of steam

That is your MO so stop projecting it unto me. I answered your question on whether it came to my mind that the god had considered it.

Oh, are we back on to the topic now?
Mr LordReed, please give an instance of God ever accepting child sacrifice, accepted burnt human offerring or accepted ritualistic killing of children if you are unable to, then do us and everybody else a favour of remaining forever silent on the " God Told Abraham To Sacrifice His Child" matter

Dude that was your augment, why the Bleep do you keep projecting your stuff unto me? I won't remain silent, go sue me to court.

Different times, different season LordReed. Seasons come and go LordReed, and that season of "a "god" commanded you to kill someone" has way back long gone.

So to the god the all knowing being, that knows all the seasons, it was acceptable? Your god is subject to the seasons? LMFAO!

frank317:


I had to like this because it is a more sensible response compared to what code templer has been saying.

However I still see some faults... Now, the events looks more like God was testing Abraham's faith, or am I wrong?
But ur explanation is tilting towards the fact that God just wanted to prove to Abraham that child sacrifice is wrong and stop it.

This are two distinct reasons why God would ask Abraham to kill his son pls clarify. As for me, I am concerned with Abraham's intent to kill for God whatever God's reason for the instruction was.

This is exactly my point, the god actually expected that Abraham in his heart will accede to kill his son, this from a god that HATES child sacrifice? What a farce.

LordReed:
That is your MO so stop projecting it unto me.

Skeptically raising my eyebrow at this remark

LordReed:
I answered your question on whether it came to my mind that the god had considered it.

It was a rhetorical question. Now kindly oblige giving the two verses in the bible I asked you and Dantedasz so we can knuckle down and get to business

LordReed:
Dude that was your augment, why the Bleep do you keep projecting your stuff unto me? I won't remain silent, go sue me to court.

My solicitor will like hanging you by overdeveloped balls after tearing you to shreds, with all these your inducement and entrapment shenanigans, and especially even if I sue you to court, so you really dont want me to sue you

LordReed:
So to the god the all knowing being, that knows all the seasons, it was acceptable? Your god is subject to the seasons? LMFAO!

If you understand it that way, its fine by me

MuttleyLaff:

It was a rhetorical question. Now kindly oblige giving the two verses in the bible I asked you and Dantedasz so we can knuckle down and get to business

My solicitor will like hanging you by overdeveloped balls after tearing you to shreds, with all these your inducement and entrapment shenanigans, and especially even if I sue you to court, so you really dont want me to sue you

Please I am begging you sue me to court.

Dantedasz already posted the verses why are you asking for them again?

[quote author=MuttleyLaff post=75283456



It was a rhetorical question. Now kindly oblige giving the two verses in the bible I asked you and Dantedasz so we can knuckle down and get to business

[/quote]



How many times do you want to keep going round in circles?
I have provided the verses from your pamphlet/manual twice already.
Here they are for the last time.

GENESIS CHAPTER 22 VERSE 9.
JUDGES CHAPTER 11 VERSES 30-40.

Now let's see you develop selective amnesia.

Dantedasz:
How many times do you want to keep going round in circles?
I have provided the verses from your pamphlet/manual twice already.
Here they are for the last time.

GENESIS CHAPTER 22 VERSE 9.
JUDGES CHAPTER 11 VERSES 30-40.

Now let's see you develop selective amnesia. grin

1/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah vow to barbecue his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?
2/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah barbecued his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?

Dantedas and LordReed stop dilly dallying about and start to kindly oblige giving the exact two verses in the bible I asked you and Dantedasz off so we can knuckle down and get to business, not this burying in a haystack of tissues of lies ploy. You guys know you haven't any legs to stand on so probably won't have the balls to provide the verses but instead push forward a swamp of verses

MuttleyLaff:
1/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah vow to barbecue his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?
2/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah barbecued his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?

Dantedas and LordReed stop dilly dallying about and start to kindly oblige giving the exact two verses in the bible I asked you and Dantedasz off so we can knuckle down and get to business, not this burying in a haystack of tissues of lies ploy. You guys know you haven't any legs to stand on so probably won't have the balls to provide the verses but instead push forward a swamp of verses

Dude work with what you've been given and stop bothering my mentions with this. The verses are there what else are you looking for?

Reed on a mission.

MuttleyLaff:
1/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah vow to barbecue his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?
2/ When, where and which exact bible verse did Jephthah barbecued his daughter as an offering to please Yahweh?

Dantedas and LordReed stop dilly dallying about and start to kindly oblige giving the exact two verses in the bible I asked you and Dantedasz off so we can knuckle down and get to business, not this burying in a haystack of tissues of lies ploy. You guys know you haven't any legs to stand on so probably won't have the balls to provide the verses but instead push forward a swamp of verses

LordReed:
Dude work with what you've been given and stop bothering my mentions with this. The verses are there what else are you looking for?

Dantedasz:

Give just a bible verse. He doesn’t need the swamp of verses you are trying to hide in. Is giving a bible verse something you both find difficult to do? You both are afraid you'll be taken to the cleaners, if you should dare present the requested single verse.

QuentinDay:


Give just a bible verse. He doesn’t need the swamp of verses you are trying to hide in. Is giving a bible verse something you both find difficult to do? You both are afraid you'll be taken to the cleaners, if you should dare present the requested single verse.

Are you dense? Dantedasz has quoted the relevant scriptures repeatedly so if he can't work with that thats his cup of tea and I assume yours since you decided to put your mouth in the matter.

MuttleyLaff:
You seemingly and yet, is the only voice of reason in the so far Dantedasz CreepyBlackpool LordReed trio group

This, as it were, is an opportunistic moment frank317, it is a situation, akin to the proverbial killing of more than two birds with one stone, and you are right that God was testing Abraham's faith, but as a matter of fact frank317, it actually was Abraham's obedience that is being tested here. In truth, it is no different to when in the garden, Adam's obedience too, to God's word was tested. Would Abraham comply or would he not comply, was the moment of truth and self discovery, soon to be found out

This here messes up ur first post in the first page but I trust u will not see it.
God testing Abraham with the killing of his son is the issue here and not the act of testing (which can also be argued as unnecessary for God).
The question is if God tests u with the killing of ur son will u still consider him a good God? Will u attempt to kill ur son for God?
Ask urself, was God satisfied that Abraham was willing to kill his son (for him)? This is something God hates, how could he be satisfied someone is willing to do it for him?

I am sorry and apologise, if that is how you interpreted what I typed. I never intended to give nor gave the impression that "God just wanted to prove to Abraham that child sacrifice is wrong and stop it" C'mon now frank317, you surely must be familiar with the the colloquial: "Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward", so it was with Abraham that after the test, he learned the lesson that God is not into the business of child sacrifices nor into ritualistic killing of children, done supposedly by those looking for wealth, riches, fame and power or done to curry divine favour from these wicked and cruel acts. ]

Again I repeat, sure Abraham was tested, to see, if he will carry out the command but fact is, God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with the child sacrifice practice and so, we have it that, ultimately did not allow Abraham sacrifice Isaac and so the experience, presented Abraham with the knowledge, the understanding and the discernment that God doesnt accept child sacrifices and nor is God into ritualistic killing of children.

And I tell u bringing in test into the equation messes up the 'teaching him by experience' angle.
I will say its okay if God wanted to just prove to him that ritualistic killing is unacceptable, but the fact that he also wanted to test Abraham to see of he will obey him by killing his son for him is wrong in my opinion. Abraham actually intend to kill his son for him, god should have condemned him for such intent and tell him not to be obedient in such instances.

Look at it this way frank317, knowing Abraham's cultural background and his antecedents that one can take advantage of, what would you say would be the ultimate way to test a man, that though already has a promised child, is actually now sterile, infertile and/or impotent?

It does not matter what his cultural background was? U cannot use something wrong to test someone and get satisfaction that he actually wanted to do such wrong for u.
I hate stealing, if I adopt a kid who comes from the background of robbery... I wouldn't test his obedience by asking him to go and steal. I will teach him robbery is wrong and if I test by asking him to steal, I will be sad that he can actually rob for me.

Also frank317, remember the given reason in the bible, for Abraham's intent to kill for God was that, Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, from after going through the command, God was able to bring him back to life again. Also frank317, besides all those, at times, unpopular decision(s) necessarily are made when making a point to advance a change in the status quo or a behaviour

Just how do not u see that this reason is wrong in all sense?
How many people had God brought back to life in that era? Did the bible record that? How did Abraham get this idea?
If God brings Isaac back eventually wouldn't that still make Abraham a murderer? How will his son feel eventually knowing his father killed him? How did he even view his father after the event? I am already seeing Abraham as a murderer.
Again, why will God be satisfied with abraham knowing that the man was willing to kill(something he hates) for him?

MuttleyLaff:

Abram had cut ties with his other gods, so you are mistaken to think Abram mistook his other gods for Yahweh.

Then Yahweh would be an ass for playing stupid games with Abraham, or childishly insecure and needing constant reassurance and couldn't have been omniknowitall either since it wouldn't have had to test Abraham to know what Abraham would have done!

There's nothing to say Abraham was not still in learning stage however, learning to distinguish the voice of Yahweh from his earlier gods.

frank317:
This here messes up ur first post in the first page but I trust u will not see it.

frank317, this is criminally insane, how you walk with these huge big balls of yours. No wonder, it's down to only you and me to face each other, the others have developed shriveled scrotums.

All you'll need to have simply done is to ask me to clarify, instead of carelessly brushing aside me saying "... you are right that God was testing Abraham's faith, but as a matter of fact frank317, it actually was Abraham's obedience that is being tested here... "

You would agree and accept that biblically speaking, faith and obedience are intertwined. One tends to obey because one has good and strong faith

frank317:
God testing Abraham with the killing of his son is the issue here and not the act of testing (which can also be argued as unnecessary for God).

Did the killing happen? Was the killing allowed to happen?. I rest my case then

frank317:
The question is if God tests u will the killing of ur son will u still consider him a good God? Will u attempt to kill ur son for God?

That is exactly the point frank317, dont you get it that, God testing me with the killing of my son, just is never going to happen?

frank317, God will test you with things you are familiar to. frank317, I know this is hard and difficult for you to stomach, and I noticed how you waved away my earlier "... knowing Abraham's cultural background and his antecedents that one can take advantage of, what would you say would be the ultimate way to test a man, that though already has a promised child, is actually now sterile, infertile and/or impotent" comment with a poor counter defence. You overlooked a telling point when you tried to retaliate with "It does not matter what his cultural background was? U cannot use something wrong to test some and get satisfaction that he actually wanted to do such wrong for u.
I hate stealing, if I adopt a kid who comes from the background of robbery... I wouldn't test his obedience by asking him to go and steal. I will teach him robbery is wrong and if I test by asking him to steal, I will be sad that he can actually rob for me."

Do you remember how Isaac came about? Do you remember the circumstances before and up until his birth?

frank317:
Ask urself, was God satisfied that Abraham was will to kill his son (for him)? This is something God hates, how could he be satisfied someone is willing to do it for him?

frank317, lets make this once and for all clear please, that God never is into the business of child sacrifices nor into ritualistic killing of children. God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with child sacrifice practices, so this isnt, as you love to believe, a matter God being satisfied that someone is willing to do something God hates. No, it isnt about that, you are not seeing the wood for the trees, if that is what you keep seeing frank317. The underlining element that need to be put in italic is obedience, that is what God was pleased with, that you are willing to comply and carry out the command.

The actual killing will never happen, as you accept and agree with, that God hates the killing

frank317:
And I tell u brining in test into the equation messes up the 'teaching him by experience angle".
I will say its okay if God wanted to just prove to him that ritualistic killing is unacceptable, but the fact that he also wanted to test Abraham to see of he will obey him by killing his sob for him is wrong weather in my opinion. Abraham actually intend to kill his son for him, god should have condemned him for such intent and tell him to be obedient in such instances.

This matter is really getting at you because there are so many fat finger typos and misspells all of a sudden, starting to crop up in your comment. I am having to reread your comments now numerous times over, just to get a grasp of what you are trying to message out

They understood each other, they knew neither of them will wish evil on each other. If God told Abraham to sling his head into an open mouth alligator, Abraham will do it without batting an eyelid. That's the mettle of the man frnk317, and unfortunately I am no Abraham

frank317:
It does not matter what his cultural background was? U cannot use something wrong to test some and get satisfaction that he actually wanted to do such wrong for u.
I hate stealing, if I adopt a kid who comes from the background of robbery... I wouldn't test his obedience by asking him to go and steal. I will teach him robbery is wrong and if I test by asking him to steal, I will be sad that he can actually rob for me.

I have above, responded to this comment but will add that, you are using a wrong and invalid scenario. Why would you tell him to go and steal someone else's property?. Is the property his or yours? Like I said earlier, you arent seeing the forest because of the trees, that is why you guys throw up all these funnies

frank317:
Just how do u see that this reason is wrong in all sense?
How many people had God brought back to life in that era? Did the bible record that? How did Abraham get this idea?

Abraham must have known some wacky and crazy things about God we dont know, dont you think frank317

frank317:
If God brings Isaac back eventually wouldn't that still make Abraham a murderer?

I like that word, IF and that's exactly what IF is, it never happened, it hasnt happened, but just to placate you and not to be accused to prevaricating, I will answer your question. Capital NO, it does not make Abraham a murderer

frank317:
How will his son feel eventually knowing his father killed him? How did he even view his father after the event? I am already seeing Abraham as a murderer.

The son will wear the scar proudly and show it off to his playmates, probably charge them money to listen to the story

frank317:
Again, why will God be satisfied with abraham knowing that the man was will to kill (something he hates)/for him?

God is not averse to killing. I dont know how or where you got that idea from frank317 that to kill is something God hates

budaatum:
Then Yahweh would be an ass for playing stupid games with Abraham, or childishly insecure and needing constant reassurance and couldn't have been omniknowitall either since it wouldn't have had to test Abraham to know what Abraham would have done!

budaatum, it has nothing to do with being "...childishly insecure and needing constant reassurance..." , it all was for the benefit and cause of Abraham. Afterall, Yahweh knows it all, but does Abraham know himself all, talkless know it all like Yahweh does?

budaatum:
There's nothing to say Abraham was not still in learning stage however, learning to distinguish the voice of Yahweh from his earlier gods.

Abraham since leaving Ur, had no problems, distinguishing the voice of Yahweh from his earlier abandoned gods.

MuttleyLaff:
budaatum, it has nothing to do with being "...childishly insecure and needing constant reassurance..." , it all was for the benefit and cause of Abraham. Afterall, Yahweh knows it all, but does Abraham know himself all, talkless know it all like Yahweh does?

Abraham since leaving Ur, had no problems, distinguishing the voice of Yahweh from his earlier abandoned gods.

Sorry muttley, but it seems you cannot get away from what you've been told to think. There's no reason to tell Abraham to go and kill his son if you don't really want him to. And there's no reason to test if he would if you already knew he would if you told him to.

budaatum:
Sorry muttley, but it seems you cannot get away from what you've been told to think. There's no reason to tell Abraham to go and kill his son if you don't really want him to. And there's no reason to test if he would if you already knew he would if you told him to.

I am sorry budaatum, what exactly, for the sake of this discussion, do you think Abraham was tested on?

If I were to test you budaatum, the test will have to involve something you cherish, something you hold dearly, it will have to be with something they'll will have to kill you first and the prise your clinging on to fingers, off before they'll take the thing off you. You know thats how the cookie crumbles now.

MuttleyLaff:
I am sorry budaatum, what exactly, for the sake of this discussion, do you think Abraham was tested on?

If I were to test you budaatum, the test will have to involve something you cherish, something you hold dearly, it will have to be with something they'll will have to kill you first and the prise your clinging on to fingers, off before they'll take the thing off you. You know thats how the cookie crumbles now.

So, if it wasn't a test, what exactly was it?

Did Abraham not cherish Isaac?

budaatum:
So, if it wasn't a test, what exactly was it?

Of course it was test budaatum, but what was Abraham tested on, what would be a best test subject to test, validate and verify Abraham with?

What do you cherish budaatum, what is the name of that thing that's so precious to you and dear to your soppy heart, huh? C'mon spill it, don't go all shy on me now.

budaatum:
Did Abraham not cherish Isaac?

Ahha! So the question is:
Would Abraham not comply because Abraham cherishs Isaac, who incidentally, is the promised child, whom a now well advanced in years Abraham, miraculously had, when Abraham was sterile, infertile and impotent?

MuttleyLaff:
Of course it was test budaatum, but what was Abraham tested on, what would be a best test subject to test, validate and verify Abraham with?

What do you cherish budaatum, what is the name of that thing that's so precious to you and dear to your soppy heart, huh? C'mon spill it, don't go all shy on me now.

Ahha! So the question is:
Would Abraham not comply because Abraham cherishs Isaac, who incidentally, is the promised child, whom a now well advanced in years Abraham, miraculously had, when Abraham was sterile, infertile and impotent?

So it was a test? How stupidly patronising of Yahweh! It definitely isn't a knowitall as some like to believe.

budaatum:

So it was a test? How stupidly patronising of Yahweh! It definitely isn't a knowitall as some like to believe.

It was a test, and for the benefit and cause of Abraham. Afterall, Yahweh knows it all, but does Abraham know himself all, talkless know it all, like Yahweh does.

How much do you know about yourself budaatum? Do you know everything and all that needs to be known about yourself?

MuttleyLaff:
It was a test, and for the benefit and cause of Abraham. Afterall, Yahweh knows it all, but does Abraham know himself all, talkless know it all, like Yahweh does.

How much do you know about yourself budaatum?

That's a stupid question muttley, but the answer all the same is, more than anyone else knows about buda!

MuttleyLaff:
frank317, this is criminally insane, how you walk with these huge big balls of yours. No wonder, it's down to only you and me to face each other, the others have developed shriveled scrotums.

All you'll need to have simply done is to ask me to clarify, instead of carelessly brushing aside me saying "... you are right that God was testing Abraham's faith, but as a matter of fact frank317, it actually was Abraham's obedience that is being tested here... "

You would agree and accept that biblically speaking, faith and obedience are intertwined. One tends to obey because one has good and strong faith

What's this? U needn't repeat urself like I didn't understand ur post. U should have told me u didn't understand my response. I repeat, this same response messed up what I thought of ur first post (I actually liked it)
Faith and obedience being intertwined is not the issue but that u accepted that God was testing Abraham with an act he deemed wrong

Did the killing happen? Was the killing allowed to happen?. I rest my case then

U have no case to rest. Nobody ever argued that abraham killed his son. The argument is that God is satisfied with the fact that Abraham intended to actually kill his son for him. Argue that and stop playing smart.

That is exactly the point frank317, dont you get it that, God testing me with the killing of my son, just is never going to happen?

frank317, God will test you with things you are familiar to. frank317, I know this is hard and difficult for you to stomach, and I noticed how you waved away my earlier "... knowing Abraham's cultural background and his antecedents that one can take advantage of, what would you say would be the ultimate way to test a man, that though already has a promised child, is actually now sterile, infertile and/or impotent" comment with a poor counter defence. You overlooked a telling point when you tried to retaliate with "It does not matter what his cultural background was? U cannot use something wrong to test some and get satisfaction that he actually wanted to do such wrong for u.
I hate stealing, if I adopt a kid who comes from the background of robbery... I wouldn't test his obedience by asking him to go and steal. I will teach him robbery is wrong and if I test by asking him to steal, I will be sad that he can actually rob for me."

I repeat, things u are familiar with is not the issue here. Also, Abraham's cultural background is not the issue here.. The issue is that God is testing man to find out if he is obedient enough to carry out a bad deed for him.
Ur evasion tactics will not work

Do you remember how Isaac came about? Do you remember the circumstances before and up until his birth? [quote]
What ever circumstances surrounded Isaac's birth does not warrant God to test Abraham by asking him to kill his son. The fact that Abraham obeyed such instruction should make God sad.

[quote]
frank317, lets make this once and for all clear please, that God never is into the business of child sacrifices nor into ritualistic killing of children. God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with child sacrifice practices, so this isnt, as you love to believe, a matter God being satisfied that someone is willing to do something God hates. No, it isnt about that, you are not seeing the wood for the trees, if that is what you keep seeing frank317. The underlining element that need to be put in italic is obedience, that is what God was pleased with, that you are willing to comply and carry out the command.

The actual killing will never happen, as you accept and agree with, that God hates the killing

Hear urself please... Was God satisfied that abraham obeyed his instruction to kill his son? u better answer.

And stop repeating that the killing never happened, that's weak.

his matter is really getting at you because there are so many fat finger typos and misspells all of a sudden, starting to crop up in your comment. I am having to reread your comments now numerous times over, just to get a grasp of what you are trying to message out

OK... But this is irrelevant.

They understood each other, they knew neither of them will wish evil on each other. If God told Abraham to sling his head into an open mouth alligator, Abraham will do it without batting an eyelid. That's the mettle of the man frnk317, and unfortunately I am no Abraham

If they understood themselves, then they should have kept it between them. I am not Abraham and God asking him to do bad things to show obedience is wrong. Asking a child I love who comes from a robbery back ground to go and rob as a test for his obedience is wrong on my part.
Stop talking like u don't get my point.

I have above, responded to this comment but will add that, you are using a wrong and invalid scenario. Why would you tell him to go and steal someone else's property?. Is the property his or yours? Like I said earlier, you arent seeing the forest because of the trees, that is why you guys throw up all these funnies

U didn't actually respond to it, u just quoted it and repeated the same response that made me give the example. Its now u are responding with this funny example. How about if I test the boy to go steal my own property? Will it be right for the boy to even attempt to steal them?

Abraham must have known some wacky and crazy things about God we dont know, dont you think frank317

MuttleyLaff must have known some wacky and crazy things about Abraham i don't know, don't u think?

I like that word, IF and that's exactly what IF is, it never happened, it hasnt happened, but just to placate you and not to be accused to prevaricating, I will answer your question. Capital NO, it does not make Abraham a murderer

If Abraham kills his son and his son comes back to life, that does not make him a murderer? One who kills someone is not a murderer because the person comes back to life? U just wanna win argument. Enjoy.

The son will wear the scar proudly and show it off to his playmates, probably charge them money to listen to the story

Ya right, glad u got ur own joke.

God is not averse to killing. I dont know how or where you got that idea from frank317 that to kill is something God hates

Sorry I never knew God loves that act of killing.

frank317:

The issue is that God is testing man to find out if he is obedient enough to carry out a bad deed for him.

In fact, a sensible person might argue that Abraham showed he hadn't abandoned his old gods, if one were to assume they were the sort who did appreciate human sacrifices, and therefore, as far as Yahweh was concerned, Abraham failed woefully!

MuttleyLaff:
I am sorry budaatum, what exactly, for the sake of this discussion, do you think Abraham was tested on?

Just so you know, I don't think Abraham was tested on anything by anyone since the tester hardly existed and Abraham didn't either.

At best, the story is to show that the new understanding, god Yahweh, disapproved of human sacrifice that was rampant at the time.