budaatum:
Funny thing is, he's guilty of them all!

Don't mind the guy, let him be making a fool of himself.
We can't show the truth to someone who has chosen to be blind.
I'm done replying him sef

CodeTemplar:
I missed it please sample it again. I need to know your claim.

Permit me to start afresh...

The Christian YHWH is claimed to be the creator of everything and to have the attribute of omniscience. In defining omniscience, I posit that the attribute of omniscience should first and foremost be applied to the internal cognition of this Deity; then omniscience can be defined as: the Deity has, at a minimum, true or perfect knowledge of the results or actualizations of all cognition's by the Deity. That is, the Deity knows, to a level of complete certainty, any event whatsoever, the actual actualization that results from purposeful cognition by the Deity.

The combination of omniscience and the purposeful cognition of the creation of everything (as The Creator Deity) results in a wholly hard deterministic universe, or total and full predestination; free will is an illusion and all of existence (sans the Deity - the issue how this Deity came to exist is outside this discussion area) is a script to be played out without variation.

Even the Bible supports the position of hard determination: God's Will is inviolable, God is the alpha and omega, is sovereign and in control, the alpha and omega, not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, etc.

Predestination cannot exist with free will

budaatum:
Doesn't matter how you spin it muttley, boko haram and alqaeda too can write. You'd only argue god didn't write it just as I'd argue no god wrote your bible!

P.s. Are you not getting emotional!?

I am sticking to the purview of the Bible and the thread's topic about God mentioning names or specify them and giving expressed commands to do something.

Oh no, I am not getting emotional. Why you asking? What on earth prompted you to ask that question?

JujuSugar:

Permit me to start afresh...

The Christian YHWH is claimed to be the creator of everything and to have the attribute of omniscience. In defining omniscience, I posit that the attribute of omniscience should first and foremost be applied to the internal cognition of this Deity; then omniscience can be defined as: the Deity has, at a minimum, true or perfect knowledge of the results or actualizations of all cognition's by the Deity. That is, the Deity knows, to a level of complete certainty, any event whatsoever, the actual actualization that results from purposeful cognition by the Deity.

The combination of omniscience and the purposeful cognition of the creation of everything (as The Creator Deity) results in a wholly hard deterministic universe, or total and full predestination; free will is an illusion and all of existence (sans the Deity - the issue how this Deity came to exist is outside this discussion area) is a script to be played out without variation.

Even the Bible supports the position of hard determination: God's Will is inviolable, God is the alpha and omega, is sovereign and in control, the alpha and omega, not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, etc.

Predestination cannot exist with free will

You succeeded in speaking many English but will this hard determination also include the things you are typing about God here? If yes, then it means you can't afford to type a contradicting message on your phone this moment because, to you, either God hard coded/predestinated it or God knew it before you typed it and God who knew what you were going to say and in fact type next, is responsible because he knew what you were going to say.
You are denying your own free will and blaming God for it. If Satan hadn't rebelled against God I am sure he would have claimed he isn't capable of rebelling against God.


So if I go outside and decide to steal a phone right now, God is to blame? Your reasoning is so so flawed.

JujuSugar:
Permit me to start afresh...

The Christian YHWH is claimed to be the creator of everything and to have the attribute of omniscience. In defining omniscience, I posit that the attribute of omniscience should first and foremost be applied to the internal cognition of this Deity; then omniscience can be defined as: the Deity has, at a minimum, true or perfect knowledge of the results or actualizations of all cognition's by the Deity. That is, the Deity knows, to a level of complete certainty, any event whatsoever, the actual actualization that results from purposeful cognition by the Deity.

The combination of omniscience and the purposeful cognition of the creation of everything (as The Creator Deity) results in a wholly hard deterministic universe, or total and full predestination; free will is an illusion and all of existence (sans the Deity - the issue how this Deity came to exist is outside this discussion area) is a script to be played out without variation.

Even the Bible supports the position of hard determination: God's Will is inviolable, God is the alpha and omega, is sovereign and in control, the alpha and omega, not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, etc.

Predestination cannot exist with free will

You have brought your warped predestination cum freewill malarkey in here abi? If as you have brought it here, then why don't you get me intrigued by responding to the following
1/ Are you in control of your freewill, is it you or God?
2/ Who takes the credit for all choices, good or bad you make, is it you or God?
3/ Do you believe your every moment, step and move in life has been predetermined to the point you have no autonomy or say in the whole matter?
4/ Explain how and what you mean by everybody's life is predetermined.

Let's leave it a four for now

MuttleyLaff:
Do you see what one of the stand-offs is about here frank317?
What is the wrong, frank317, in commanding another to carry out an act on something that you own?

The act of killing is wrong. It does not matter who owns what. God giving that command is evil and barbaric.

So? What's the wrong in that frank317?

Did God ask anyone else to go kill their children for Him? No, he didnt and hasnt ever did

No perhaps he should have continued, after all, that act is not wrong.

I have a case and a very valid case for that matter. I earlier asked you: "Do you remember how Isaac came about? Do you remember the circumstances before and up until his birth?" but you ignored that comment

I said it does not matter, if u have anything to say, bring it on.

I will test you on things I know you're used to, I will test you on things you are familiar with. I will test you based on your past antecedents. I will test and confirm to you, whether or not you are susceptible to be avaricious, by feeding your greed. Feeding your greed, will be a good test and it wouldnt necessarily be criminal for me, to do so

That's what we are saying. God tested Abraham on what he was used to and Abraham failed. He should have told God that killing was wrong and he will not do it. Why is God satisfied with Abraham for failing the test?

Now, frank317, tell what exactly, is the bad deed, in God telling Abraham to go kill Isaac, his son there as a sacrifice for God, and this same Isaac, Abraham's only son, the one he love, should be used as a burnt offering on one of the mountains God said He will point out which to Abraham?

The bad deed is that killing is wrong( although u say killing is not wrong in Gods sight) but it is wrong to me and God shouldn't have used such a wrong deed to test Abraham's loyalty. He could have used it to test Abraham's greed or desire to obey the old Gods.

That would be resounding YES. Of course, God was satisfied that Abraham was will and prepared to obey His instruction to kill his son, Isaac. God was deed chuffed with Abraham. He was actually pleased for Abraham's sake, that Abraham considering the tricky and awkward situation, Abraham came through passing with flying colours

Good. And him being satisfied with that is barbaric and wrong. If God test u to kill ur son, will u pass the test. And don't go giving me the 'he will never test u will killing" crap. It's dodgy.

It is the truth and fact that the killing never happened. Now if the kiiling didnt happen, I wonder why you guys have an extremely nervous and sensitive temperament to the escapade. Even budaatum, in chillax mode, actually saw the whole affair as a God prank

Off point... This has been clarified. The discussion in not on whether Abraham killed his son on not. We are discussing the event as it happened.

Now that you are aware, at least, you'll take more care, so I dont agree with you that it is irrelevant.

Face the topic at hand.

That is exactly what they've both done frank317. Have you heard or seen God after theirs ask anyone else to go to kill their son for God?

We are talking about Abraham here... Stop asking irrelevant questions.

God will never ask anyone to do bad things frank317. God telling Abraham to kill is son is not a bad thing nor is it wrong for God to do or ask

So killing is not bad?

Cant you see this is not worthy of comparison. For starters, why are you encouraging someone to go steal another person's property?

Exactly what I am saying, why is God asking Abraham to take someone's life?

Of course I responded and did because I didnt want you to accuse me of being evasive.

You think it is funny, me saying, you are using a wrong and invalid scenario. You think it is funny, me asking you: "Why would you tell him to go and steal someone else's property?. Is the property his or yours?" huh? Like I said, earlier, you arent seeing the forest because of the trees, and that is why it's actually you guys, and especially you, who are throwing up funnies of all sorts

Yes frank317, it will be right for the boy to even attempt to steal them, because you told him to go do stealing, you gave him express authorisation to go steal from you. In some parts of world, there is a name for something like that, it is called social experiment

In order words, if God ask u to kill ur son, u will kill him?

It sure does seem like that, dont you think frank317

Lol.. U never fail to disappoint. Of course u know so much about Abraham... Pls tell me his favourite food.

Yes, it does not make Abraham a murderer because there is no dead body, besides, Abraham was following a God command to kill, and so this absolves Abraham of any culpability, blame or wrong.

Ya right... Abraham will be rewarded for killing someone because the person came back to life. Smh.
Again I ask u, If God asks u to kill ur son will u?

Yes, it does not make Abraham a murderer because there is no dead body. It doesnt matter, how many ways you want to pan this, the answer always will be "it doesnt make Abraham a murderer".

A murderer is a killer. Its not the presence of dead body that determines if one is a murderer Mr man.

Number 1, I dont do argument and there is a very good reason for that, to me
Number 2, unlike you, I dont have a truculent bone in my body
Number 3, truth needs no argument

OK, nice to know.

I am just being real, trutful and facing the facts. Wish yo could and are able to frank317.

If u are being truthful u should know the act of killing is wrong.

I wouldnt like you, stretch and/or go as far as saying God loves the act of killing, but can confidently say I know God is not averse to killing, and you can take that comment to the bank frank317

What then is Gods opinion on killing? Mr Gods mouth piece

MuttleyLaff:
I am sticking to the purview of the Bible and the thread's topic about God mentioning names or specify them and giving expressed commands to do something.

Oh no, I am not getting emotional. Why you asking? What on earth prompted you to ask that question?

And we're telling you a god who commands someone to go sacrifice their child to it is an ass even if it was just a test or a lesson, and that's all apart from the fact that the whole made up story is just that, a made up story!

I hope if your god commanded you to do something so stupid you'd go get yourself a new god or you'd be no different to those it presumably tells to go blow up some infidels!

I'm just glad Christians did get a new more rational and intelligent god and strongly advise you, muttley, to accept Christ into your reasoning! This your Yahweh dude needs to be taken to the bottom of the river and have its head bashed in!

MuttleyLaff:


Now, frank317, tell what exactly, is the bad deed, in God telling Abraham to go kill Isaac, his son there as a sacrifice for God, and this same Isaac, Abraham's only son, the one he love, should be used as a burnt offering on one of the mountains God said He will point out which to Abraham?

"A burnt offering on one of the mountains God said He will point out which to Abraham" ?

Told you something was fishy about that story from the very beginning! Jealous only god Yahweh would not be asking for sacrifices on mountain, and if Abraham thought Yahweh did, then he's failed already. But I guess no one said you could ever think of it that way.

You're going to have to forgive me ignoring you for awhile muttley, you're killing my brain cells.

CodeTemplar:
You succeeded in speaking many English but will this hard determination also include the things you are typing about God here?

Yes

CodeTemplar:
If yes, then it means you can't afford to type a contradicting message on your phone this moment because, to you, either God hard coded/predestinated it or God knew it before you typed it and God who knew what you were going to say and in fact type next, is responsible because he knew what you were going to say.

Right on the money

CodeTemplar:

You are denying your own free will and blaming God for it. If Satan hadn't rebelled against God I am sure he would have claimed he isn't capable of rebelling against God.

Wake up and smell the coffee, sir. There's no denial here. This is what it all boils down to:
If YHWH is an omnipotent, omniscient being, then it simply means that he created the universe such that he has already predetermined all events. Denying this would mean that God lacked these attributes at the conception of the universe. Given that diseases, natural disasters, suffering and pain all exist in our universe, we have two options:
a) YHWH is malevolent
b) YHWH doesn't exist
Take your pick

@MuttleyLaff, I'm going to ignore the fact that you've conviently dodged my question in my last post to you . At least you've admitted that you were either being dishonest or you just had literally NO idea what you were talking about there . So let me entertain your request

MuttleyLaff:

1/ Are you in control of your freewill, is it you or God?
2/ Who takes the credit for all choices, good or bad you make, is it you or God?
3/ Do you believe your every moment, step and move in life has been predetermined to the point you have no autonomy or say in the whole matter?

These three questions basically lead to the same point: God's existence terminates free will. Make of that what you will.

MuttleyLaff:

4/ Explain how and what you mean by everybody's life is predetermined.

Go back to my previous posts. I've explained it perfectly well and the more rational users and possible lurkers of this thread can bear me witness. If you still don't get it, I can't help you there.

JujuSugar:

Yes


Right on the money


Wake up and smell the coffee, sir. There's no denial here. This is what it all boils down to:
If YHWH is an omnipotent, omniscient being, then it simply means that he created the universe such that he has already predetermined all events. Denying this would mean that God lacked these attributes at the conception of the universe. Given that diseases, natural disasters, suffering and pain all exist in our universe, we have two options:
a) YHWH is malevolent
b) YHWH doesn't exist
Take your pick

You sound like an examiner with that last line but I assure you, you need to be examined well. Even when you decided what to type, God is still at fault? And in addition to that you had to believe God exist in other to infer that He doesn't exist?
Confusion is a subconscious thing so I won't blame you much.

CodeTemplar:


You sound like an examiner with that last line but I assure you, you need to be examined well. Even when you decided what to type, God is still at fault? And in addition to that you had to believe God exist in other to infer that He doesn't exist?
Confusion is a subconscious thing so I won't blame you much.

LMAO. Sure thing. Keep wrestling with yourself in the mud over there
I've asked you to demonstrate how predestination and free will can co-exist, so until you do so..... you really can't talk.

JujuSugar:
Wake up and smell the coffee, sir. There's no denial here. This is what it all boils down to:
If YHWH is an omnipotent, omniscient being, then it simply means that he created the universe such that he has already predetermined all events. Denying this would mean that God lacked these attributes at the conception of the universe. Given that diseases, natural disasters, suffering and pain all exist in our universe, we have two options:
a) YHWH is malevolent
b) YHWH doesn't exist
Take your pick

I know this comment isn't addressed to me but is to CodeTemplar, still it is necessary that I share that God having foreknowledge, which essentially, is what predetermination means, doesn't in anyway affect your choices and/or freewill. What will happen, will happen as God permits it to happen. There are rules your freewill is subjected to, there are principles, your freewill respects and would not violate, if it does violate any, then undoubtedly face up to the consequence(s)

JujuSugar:
@MuttleyLaff, I'm going to ignore the fact that you've conviently dodged my question in my last post to you . At least you've admitted that you were either being dishonest or you just had literally NO idea what you were talking about there . So let me entertain your request

Sometimes it gets tiring when one becomes sounding like a broken record JujuSugar. I shouted from the rooftops, I have swung from tall chimneys, I have bleated my face blue, that your question is a non issue question. Jephthah did not barbecue or roast his daughter. There wasn't any plan to offer a burnt human sacrifice to God. Accusing me of dishonesty or saying I haven't a clue what I am talking about, is just a figment of your imagination and evidence of the world of fantasy you live in.

Please watch my mouth and read my lips. There was no incident of burnt human being offering sacrificed to God by Jephthah

JujuSugar:
These three questions basically lead to the same point: God's existence terminates free will. Make of that what you will

What's so difficult in or frightful about just straight up answering those four questions

JujuSugar:
Go back to my previous posts. I've explained it perfectly well and the more rational users and possible lurkers of this thread can bear me witness. If you still don't get it, I can't help you there.

I have read all your warped and misunderstood predestination and freewill malarkey. I know about all the gaping holes in them and that is why I have asked you those four deliberate questions, that you stylishly have directly and outrightly avoided answering

JujuSugar:

LMAO. Sure thing. Keep wrestling with yourself in the mud over there
I've asked you to demonstrate how predestination and free will can co-exist, so until you do so..... you really can't talk.

Predestination simply means God predestined you for something, usually a career and that is different from God knowing what you will eventually become. He knows your outcome and did predestinated you but your free will stands between you fulfilling that purpose or not.
He gave us the choice to choose between life and death, remember that? It means you were designed for something and you are admonished to find out that thing and answer God's calling on your life.
Predestination isn't exactly foreknowledge.

MuttleyLaff:
I know this comment isn't addressed to me but is to CodeTemplar, still it is necessary that I share that God having foreknowledge, which essentially, is what predetermination means, doesn't in anyway affect your choices and/or freewill. What will happen, will happen as God permits it to happen. There are rules your freewill is subjected to, there are principles, your freewill respects and would not violate, if it does violate any, then undoubtedly face up to the consequence(s)

Sometimes it gets tiring when one becomes sounding like a broken record JujuSugar. I shouted from the rooftops, I have swung from tall chimneys, I have bleated my face blue, that your question is a non issue question. Jephthah did not barbecue or roast his daughter. There wasn't any plan to offer a burnt human sacrifice to God. Accusing me of dishonesty or saying I haven't a clue what I am talking about, is just a figment of your imagination and evidence of the world of fantasy you live in.

Please watch my mouth and read my lips. There was no incident of burnt human being offering sacrificed to God by Jephthah

What's so difficult in or frightful about just straight up answering those four questions

I have read all your warped and misunderstood predestination and freewill malarkey. I know about all the gaping holes in them and that is why I have asked you those four deliberate questions, that you stylishly have directly and outrightly avoided answering

That guy is more concerned about justifying his no-God-exists stance and will twist even English to suite it. He confuses predestination with foreknowledge and starts blaming God for all his own flaws and actions.

MuttleyLaff:
I know this comment isn't addressed to me but is to CodeTemplar, still it is necessary that I share that God having foreknowledge, which essentially, is what predetermination means, doesn't in anyway affect your choices and/or freewill. What will happen, will happen as God permits it to happen. There are rules your freewill is subjected to, there are principles, your freewill respects and would not violate, if it does violate any, then undoubtedly face up to the consequence(s)

Its not just about foreknowledge.... hence why I added omnipotence. God is the first cause. He's the ALPHA & OMEGA. He chose the constants of the universe while creating it such that I'm here having this tête-à-tête with you. If you don't agree with this, then you're basically saying that God wasn't omnipotent before the universe's conception. Your "free will" is an illusion if YHWH exists.

MuttleyLaff:

Sometimes it gets tiring when one becomes sounding like a broken record JujuSugar.

You're telling me, lol

MuttleyLaff:

Jephthah did not barbecue or roast his daughter. There wasn't any plan to offer a burnt human sacrifice to God. Accusing me of dishonesty or saying I haven't a clue what I am talking about, is just a figment of your imagination and evidence of the world of fantasy you live in.

Hmmmm....
https://www.nairaland.com/4990896/why-did-god-tell-abraham/4
MuttleyLaff: Jephthah clearly stated in Judges 11:31a that if its human or animal that comes out to meet, such will be dedicated to God's purpose, then went on in Judges 11:31b to qualify his earlier pronounced vow, that, if it happens to be an animal, then it animal will be given up as a burnt offering to God

JujuSugar: Twisting the scriptures to suit your argument - Christian logic #101
Sir Muttley, @bolded please specify exactly where in the bible Jephthah indicated this exemption...

MuttleyLaff: I numerous times already have, but because you do selective reading, you only read what you want to see and believe

JujuSugar: LMAO. I've caught you, Mr. Muttley
Please point to the part of Judges chapter 11 where Jephthah made an exception for sacrifice IF it was an animal that came out. Don't dodge this please. I'm waiting....
[img]https://media./images/45d97907d4d12fe555c272458c914ca0/tenor.gif[/img]

MuttleyLaff:
Please watch my mouth and read my lips. There was no incident of burnt human being offering sacrificed to God by Jephthah

Proof?....

MuttleyLaff:
What's so difficult in or frightful about just straight up answering those four questions

I have read all your warped and misunderstood predestination and freewill malarkey. I know about all the gaping holes in them and that is why I have asked you those four deliberate questions, that you stylishly have directly and outrightly avoided answering

Let me bring it your level, Muttleylaff, since you don't how to "interprete" statements...

1/ Are you in control of your freewill, is it you or God?

God

2/ Who takes the credit for all choices, good or bad you make, is it you or God?

God

3/ Do you believe your every moment, step and move in life has been predetermined to the point you have no autonomy or say in the whole matter?

Yes

4/ Explain how and what you mean by everybody's life is predetermined.

Lifting from my previous post, cause I have neither the time nor crayons to start all over for you:
The Christian YHWH is claimed to be the creator of everything and to have the attribute of omniscience. In defining omniscience, I posit that the attribute of omniscience should first and foremost be applied to the internal cognition of this Deity; then omniscience can be defined as: the Deity has, at a minimum, true or perfect knowledge of the results or actualizations of all cognition's by the Deity. That is, the Deity knows, to a level of complete certainty, any event whatsoever, the actual actualization that results from purposeful cognition by the Deity.

The combination of omniscience and the purposeful cognition of the creation of everything (as The Creator Deity) results in a wholly hard deterministic universe, or total and full predestination; free will is an illusion and all of existence (sans the Deity - the issue how this Deity came to exist is outside this discussion area) is a script to be played out without variation.

Even the Bible supports the position of hard determination: God's Will is inviolable, God is the alpha and omega, is sovereign and in control, the alpha and omega, not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, etc.

Predestination cannot exist with free will

CodeTemplar:
Predestination simply means God predestined you for something, usually a career and that is different from God knowing what you will eventually become. He knows your outcome and did predestinated you but your free will stands between you fulfilling that purpose or not.
He gave us the choice to choose between life and death, remember that? It means you were designed for something and you are admonished to find out that thing and answer God's calling on your life.
Predestination isn't exactly foreknowledge.

At least you've admitted that God knows the outcome of every individual. That's one point clarified. Now let's move on...
The problem is that if God knows what you will choose, it means you are only ever going to choose that one thing.
It means that the choice is an illusion — it means that, even though it looks like you could be an accountant, the only true reality is that you will become a doctor.
Otherwise, how could God know it? The fact that God knows something implies that it will be true.
Think of it this way:
a) God knows you will become a doctor.
b) If God knows something to be true, it is true, no matter what. (This is because all knowledge in the universe is contained in him)
c) It is true, no matter what, that you will become a doctor.
d) If you are a doctor, you cannot be an accountant.
e) If God knows you will be a doctor, He also knows you will not become an accountant.
f) It is absolutely true, no matter what, that you will not become an accountant.
Let me put it this way:
If God knows you will become a doctor, that means it is at the very least possible to know what choices people will make. If it is even remotely possible to know the outcome of any decision a person makes, it is meaningless to regard what they do as an actual choice. It may appear to be a choice, but in reality, there is only one, known outcome. If God knows you will become a doctor, it means that you never had the choice. You can't become an accountant, because God can't ever be wrong. Ever. God knows everything, meaning He cannot be misinformed, and by extension, cannot be wrong about things, or be lied to about them. If there is a God, one who is omniscient, and truly knows all, there is no allowance for free will in our universe.

CodeTemplar:

That girl is more concerned about justifying her no-God-exists stance and will twist even English to suite it. She confuses predestination with foreknowledge and starts blaming God for all her own flaws and actions.

Fixed your post for you , I'm a girl actually....
There is nothing to twist here. You & MuttleyLaff are the ones who can't seem to grasp where I'm coming from regards this issue.
https://www.thoughtco.com/atheism-incompatible-with-free-will-moral-choice-248350
Cc. budaatum, CreepyBlackpool, LordReed

JujuSugar:

Its not just about foreknowledge.... hence why I added omnipotence. God is the first cause. He's the ALPHA & OMEGA. He chose the constants of the universe while creating it such that I'm here having this tête-à-tête with you. If you don't agree with this, then you're basically saying that God wasn't omnipotent before the universe's conception. Your "free will" is an illusion if YHWH exists.

You're telling me, lol

Hmmmm....
https://www.nairaland.com/4990896/why-did-god-tell-abraham/4
MuttleyLaff: Jephthah clearly stated in Judges 11:31a that if its human or animal that comes out to meet, such will be dedicated to God's purpose, then went on in Judges 11:31b to qualify his earlier pronounced vow, that, if it happens to be an animal, then it animal will be given up as a burnt offering to God

JujuSugar: Twisting the scriptures to suit your argument - Christian logic #101
Sir Muttley, @bolded please specify exactly where in the bible Jephthah indicated this exemption...

MuttleyLaff: I numerous times already have, but because you do selective reading, you only read what you want to see and believe

JujuSugar: LMAO. I've caught you, Mr. Muttley
Please point to the part of Judges chapter 11 where Jephthah made an exception for sacrifice IF it was an animal that came out. Don't dodge this please. I'm waiting....

Proof?....

Let me bring it your level, Muttleylaff, since you don't how to "interprete" statements...
God
God
Yes

Lifting from my previous post, cause I have neither the time nor crayons to start all over for you:
The Christian YHWH is claimed to be the creator of everything and to have the attribute of omniscience. In defining omniscience, I posit that the attribute of omniscience should first and foremost be applied to the internal cognition of this Deity; then omniscience can be defined as: the Deity has, at a minimum, true or perfect knowledge of the results or actualizations of all cognition's by the Deity. That is, the Deity knows, to a level of complete certainty, any event whatsoever, the actual actualization that results from purposeful cognition by the Deity.

The combination of omniscience and the purposeful cognition of the creation of everything (as The Creator Deity) results in a wholly hard deterministic universe, or total and full predestination; free will is an illusion and all of existence (sans the Deity - the issue how this Deity came to exist is outside this discussion area) is a script to be played out without variation.

Even the Bible supports the position of hard determination: God's Will is inviolable, God is the alpha and omega, is sovereign and in control, the alpha and omega, not a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, etc.

Predestination cannot exist with free will

At least you've admitted that God knows the outcome of every individual. That's one point clarified. Now let's move on...
The problem is that if God knows what you will choose, it means you are only ever going to choose that one thing.
It means that the choice is an illusion — it means that, even though it looks like you could be an accountant, the only true reality is that you will become a doctor.
Otherwise, how could God know it? The fact that God knows something implies that it will be true.
Think of it this way:
a) God knows you will become a doctor.
b) If God knows something to be true, it is true, no matter what. (This is because all knowledge in the universe is contained in him)
c) It is true, no matter what, that you will become a doctor.
d) If you are a doctor, you cannot be an accountant.
e) If God knows you will be a doctor, He also knows you will not become an accountant.
f) It is absolutely true, no matter what, that you will not become an accountant.
Let me put it this way:
If God knows you will become a doctor, that means it is at the very least possible to know what choices people will make. If it is even remotely possible to know the outcome of any decision a person makes, it is meaningless to regard what they do as an actual choice. It may appear to be a choice, but in reality, there is only one, known outcome. If God knows you will become a doctor, it means that you never had the choice. You can't become an accountant, because God can't ever be wrong. Ever. God knows everything, meaning He cannot be misinformed, and by extension, cannot be wrong about things, or be lied to about them. If there is a God, one who is omniscient, and truly knows all, there is no allowance for free will in our universe.

Fixed your post for you , I'm a girl actually....
There is nothing to twist here. You & MuttleyLaff are the ones who can't seem to grasp where I'm coming from regards this issue.
https://www.thoughtco.com/atheism-incompatible-with-free-will-moral-choice-248350

Thank you very very much for directly and prefectly well answering those questions. I actually like the succint binary response. It was just the way I wanted the answers to be. I don't know about you, but personally I like hold prisoners by their wrists, that way escape won't be that an easy option. The hunter will soon turn into the hunted, and I can smell the prey and fright.

JujuSugar, I am right now, at the moment, sat in my car reading this, let me get upstairs, change clothes, refreshen up, grab a bite and then settle down, put my feet up, to come read properly your comment.

Laughing out loud at the hair flicking. SMH. You don't know momoh.

MuttleyLaff:
Thank you very very much for directly and prefectly well answering those questions. I actually like the succint binary response. It was just the way I wanted the answers to be. I don't know about you, but personally I like hold prisoners by their wrists, that way escape won't be that an easy option. The hunter will soon turn into the hunted, and I can smell the prey and fright.

JujuSugar, I am right now, at the moment, sat in my car reading this, let me get upstairs, change clothes, refreshen up, grab a bite and then settle down, put my feet up, to come read properly your comment.

Laughing out loud at the hair flicking. SMH. You don't know momoh.

Now you have me hyped up. I'm eagerly awaiting your response. It will be a crime to let me down after all this mouth you've made Mr. Muttley

JujuSugar:
Now you have me hyped up. I'm eagerly awaiting your response. It will be a crime to let me down after all this mouth you've made Mr. Muttley

Keep your knickers on, what kind of person do you take me for? And what are you unnecessarily getting your knickers in a twist over for, hmm? I will take you to the river, but even you know this much, that I can't force you to drink the water. I can only tell you the truth. I can't, if you are bent on hanging on to your untruth, make you believe the truth I'll soon share with you. I must warn you though, that since you've been in the dark so long, the light of the truth, the epiphany, can be harsh to you. Brb.

[s]

MuttleyLaff:
Keep your knickers on, what kind of person do you take me for? And what are you unnecessarily getting your knickers in a twist over for, hmm? I will take you to the river, but even you know this much, that I can't force you to drink the water. I can only tell you the truth. I can't, if you are bent on hanging on to your untruth, make you believe the truth I'll soon share with you. I must warn you though, that since you've been in the dark so long, the light of the truth, the epiphany, can be harsh to you.

[/s]
Fancy you telling me to keep my knickers on when you've let yours down around the ankle and you're displaying all this emotion like an elderly woman . Like I said, you've hyped me up to expect great responses soon and I'm holding you to your words. Do take your time, Sir Muttley. Wouldn't want you setting mouse traps for yourself this time

JujuSugar:
[s][/s]
Fancy you telling me to keep my knickers on when you've let yours down around the ankle and you're displaying all this emotion . Like I said, you've hyped me up to expect great responses soon and I'm holding you to your words. Do take your time, Sir Muttley. Wouldn't want you setting mouse traps for yourself next time

Don't you dare let him start going on about your knickers! He writes those meaningless and irrelevant patronising words when he's cornered and has nothing relevant to say. I'm calling it the "muttley kitchen sink approach", except nothing sticks where he's concerned!

budaatum:

Don't you dare let him start going on about your knickers! He writes those meaningless and irrelevant patronising words when he's cornered and has nothing relevant to say. I'm calling it the "muttley kitchen sink approach", except nothing sticks where he's concerned!

. You must be very good friends to know him so well like this

JujuSugar:
[s][/s]Fancy you telling me to keep my knickers on when you've let yours down around the ankle and you're displaying all this emotion . Like I said, you've hyped me up to expect great responses soon and I'm holding you to your words. Do take your time, Sir Muttley. Wouldn't want you setting mouse traps for yourself this time

Are you and budaatum bed mates? Is this some weird kind of pillow talk because I dont know what all this is about displaying emotions. I am in chillax mode and nothing ontowards is going on. Dont get your hopes too much high, I am a simple and sweet person and so my responses too wil be simple, sweet and uncomplicated but knowing you, who you are and what you are, you will ....

JujuSugar:
Wouldn't want you setting mouse traps for yourself this time

Laughed out loud at this remark. I own up, my hands in the air, yeah, I confess, I did set some bobby traps for you. You knew it and thats why you tried treading softly and being evasive earlier on

budaatum:
Don't you dare let him start going on about your knickers! He writes those meaningless and irrelevant patronising words when he's cornered and has nothing relevant to say. I'm calling it the "muttley kitchen sink approach", except nothing sticks where he's concerned!

Just saw this. SMH.
Please let me be, I have got the munchings, havent changed, need a shower, need to unwind, and then settle down to read and catch up to respond to JujuSugar. Hmm this 50ml ACV glass of water is delicious

[s]

MuttleyLaff:
Are you and budaatum bed mates? Is this some weird kind of pillow talk because I dont know what all this is about displaying emotions. I am in chillax mode and nothing ontowards is going on. Dont get your hopes too much high, I am a simple and sweet person and so my responses too wil be simple, sweet and uncomplicated but knowing you, who you are and what you are, you will ....

Laughed out loud at this remark. I own up, my hands in the air, yeah, I confess, I did set some bobby traps for you. You knew it and thats why you tried treading softly and being evasive earlier on

Just saw this. SMH.

[/s]
Muttley, save all this corny remarks of yours for when you've come back with legitimate arguments. But be warned....
It would be a shame to return back to this thread as you're leaving now: clueless, without reasonable counter arguments, resorting to cringey jokes to remain in the discussion etc. If you fail to impress me this time....
As your name suggests, Muttley, you're a dog.... and when a dog gets backed into the corner, it gets defensive
I'm waiting....

JujuSugar:

. You must be very good friends to know him so well like this

Oh, we have history. He's taking me out someday when I can muster up the self control to not kick his silly head in!

MuttleyLaff:

Just saw this. SMH.

It's not funny, muttley, not funny at all

JujuSugar:
Muttley, save all this corny remarks of yours for when you've come back with legitimate arguments. But be warned....
It would be a shame to return back to this thread as you're leaving now: clueless, without reasonable counter arguments, resorting to cringey jokes to remain in the discussion etc. If you fail to impress me this time....
As your name suggests, Muttley, you're a dog.... and when a dog gets backed into the corner, it gets defensive
I'm waiting....

budaatum:
It's not funny, muttley, not funny at all

"I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty,
but by my name the Yahweh I did not make myself fully known to them."
- Exodus 6:3

I literaly laughed out loud at the Muttley swipe and subtle shade.

JujuSugar, you know my moniker as being MuttleyLaff, but I have not by the moniker name fully revealed to you what it is about. I have not fully made known to you myself and the moniker. No one yet has seen a demonstration of MuttleyLaff from me.

#IfYouKnowYouKnow
If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know

MuttleyLaff:


"I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty,
but by my name the Yahweh I did not make myself fully known to them."
- Exodus 6:3

I literaly laughed out loud at the Muttley swipe and subtle shade.

JujuSugar, you know my moniker as being MuttleyLaff, but I have not by the moniker name fully revealed to you what it is about. I have not fully made known to you myself and the moniker. No one yet has seen a demonstration of MuttleyLaff from me.

#IfYouKnowYouKnow
If you know, you know. Who no know, no go know

[img]https://media1./images/def74c7faffbec30dd50bc4be0870116/tenor.gif[/img]
This guy is a clown
It seems you have nothing to else to offer topic-wise, if not why would you keep replying with these cringey ass remarks? LoL!!
Colour it however you want, I know what a Mutt is, and like I said, Muttley, you're a dog. And I'll be here to put that nozzle on your mouth when you start dribbling spit instead of speaking reasonably.
If you have nothing else to say, please don't mention me again until you're ready to get back to the topic. Quoting me again will just let me know you're no longer interested in the argument.

MuttleyLaff:


"I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty,
but by my name the Yahweh I did not make myself fully known to them."
- Exodus 6:3

So perhaps go back to where I said poor Abraham could be mistaking his old gods for Yahweh, after all, Yahweh had not fully made itself known even a few generations after Abraham was long dead!

budaatum:
So perhaps go back to where I said poor Abraham could be mistaking his old gods for Yahweh, after all, Yahweh had not fully made itself known even a few generations after Abraham was long dead!

budaatum, you will know the Yoruba colloquial that goes like this: "Ma fi han ẹ leni, nkan ti orukọ mi jẹ, iwọ kan jọ jẹ duro demi, iwọ na ma gba" loosely translated means "I will show you today, what my name is all about, you just wait and hang about, you will see a terrific demonstration of it today, you'll be awed"

budaatum, that is not what that verse is talking about. The verse is messaging that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God as All-Powerful or Omnipotent but they never got to know, they never got to witness, they never got to see a demonstration of what it means to be Yahweh. They knew him to be Yahweh, but God, in respect of that name, did not make Himself fully known to them

JujuSugar:
Hmmmm....
https://www.nairaland.com/4990896/why-did-god-tell-abraham/4
MuttleyLaff: Jephthah clearly stated in Judges 11:31a that if its human or animal that comes out to meet, such will be dedicated to God's purpose, then went on in Judges 11:31b to qualify his earlier pronounced vow, that, if it happens to be an animal, then it animal will be given up as a burnt offering to God

JujuSugar: Twisting the scriptures to suit your argument - Christian logic #101
Sir Muttley, @bolded please specify exactly where in the bible Jephthah indicated this exemption...

JujuSugar your wish, is my command. Let's go there. Now, what Jephthah did in Judges 11:31 was to conflate two vows, making this appear to an untrained and/or unsuspecting eye to be one vow.

Judges 11:31, as a matter of fact and truth, is a coded verse, wrapping up or encompassing two vows

Then it shall be, that whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon,
shall surely be the LORD'S,
and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
- Judges 11:31

Vow #1:
"whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S"

Vow #2:
"and I will offer it up for a burnt offering."

Judges 11:31, in relation to the above two vows, is explained like this:

Referring to Vow #1:
Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S (i.e. will be given over to God devoted to service)

Referring to Vow #2:
Better still, or if it happens to be an IT (i.e. an animal AND NOT a human being) then I will offer IT, the animal up for a burnt offering
This will be and/or serve as a bonus.

³⁴When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy.
She was his one and only child; he had no other sons or daughters.
³⁵When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish.
“Oh, my daughter!” he cried out. “You have completely destroyed me! You’ve brought disaster on me!
For I have made a vow to the Lord, and I cannot take it back.”
³⁶And she said, “Father, if you have made a vow to the Lord,
you must do to me what you have vowed, for the Lord has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites.
³⁷But first let me do this one thing: Let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin
- Judges 11:34-37

We can see from the above Judges 11:34-37 verses, that when Jephthah's daughter came out to meet him, father and daughter instantly knew the fate of the daughter is now a lifetime of celibacy (i.e. she now never will marry & she'll be sexually abstinent) and dedication to God (i.e. as per vow #1)

Moving forward it needs to be recognised and understood that the "it" in Judges 11:31b, is referring to an animal and not a human being or Jephthah's daughter because instead of a gender-specific pronoun insertion, it is a gender-neutral pronoun, that is in the verse

³⁷And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
³⁸And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
³⁹And it came to pass at the end of two months,
that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
And it was a custom in Israel,
⁴⁰That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
- Judges 11:37-40

Lastly, there, up above is the concrete and scriptural evidence in Judges 11:39, that though there was a bit of delay in paying vow #1,
it eventually got paid when Jephthah's daughter after two months, gave herself up to her fate of a lifetime "seminary work" in God's presence or temple

Vow #2 however was a DOA, as God is not interested and doesnt accept human burnt offerings anyways.
No animal, acceptable as a burnt offering to God, came out to meet Jephthah so nothing to offer as burning offering here
Vow #2 JujuSugar, is not binding, as no animal, so no contest with vow #2

JujuSugar:
MuttleyLaff: I numerous times already have, but because you do selective reading, you only read what you want to see and believe

JujuSugar: LMAO. I've caught you, Mr. Muttley
Please point to the part of Judges chapter 11 where Jephthah made an exception for sacrifice IF it was an animal that came out. Don't dodge this please. I'm waiting....

JujuSugar, you are biting more than you can chew and stomach here with this request you are making. You've so far had your feet wet, why are you keen in going in to the deep end. What are you waiting for, who are you waiting for. Dont you know that when you look at the dark, you ought be careful because the dark looks back?

I will take you down pitch dark, you dont really want to go down to. Right, there is an "or" I didnt mention, that's before the "if" in Judges 11:31b JujuSugar. Go research or check out the meaning of "conjunctive waw" is all I'll say. Anything more than what I've already and so far shared, is going to be information overload and we both know what information overload means

It's not now, its not today, its not yesterday, it's not last year, I've been taken part in talking about Jephthah, that is why I said earlier that this Jephthah controversy has been flogged enough times over and long time laid to rest many years ago, on nairaland, and so wondering why, some are still tearing hairs out and getting hard-ons over it. I've been there, sold it, done it and have the "Jephthah controversy" souvenir t-shirt I bought that reminds me.

JujuSugar:
Proof?...

I typed:"Please watch my mouth and read my lips. There was no incident of burnt human being offering sacrificed to God by Jephthah" and you still are asking for proof. Well, just as I had told LordReed and equally same to Dantedasz earlier than LordReed, Jephthah NEVER and DID NOT use his daughter as a burnt offering anyway, this is because human burnt offering is an anathema to God and Jephthah knew this and so never did he nurse any plan nor had any intention of offering God a human burnt offering. Besides burnt offering the Israelites practised, always had to do with animals anyways, and never had anything to do with human being sacrifices. If God had numerous times categorically told the Israelities that he is against human burnt offering, child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children, what kind of chest and boldness will Jephthah have to think he can curry favour from God with such a dastardly act?

You'll always have my undivided attention and I am available to be frisked and cross examined anytime by you JujuSugar
cc budaatum, frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, LordReed, CodeTemplar

MuttleyLaff:
budaatum, you will know the Yoruba colloquial that goes like this: "Ma fi han ẹ leni, nkan ti orukọ mi jẹ, iwọ kan jọ jẹ duro demi, iwọ na ma gba" loosely translated means "I will show you today, what my name is all about, you just wait and hang about, you will see a terrific demonstration of it today, you'll be awed"

budaatum, that is not what that verse is talking about. The verse is messaging that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God as All-Powerful or Omnipotent but they never got to know, they never got to witness, they never got to see a demonstration of what it means to be Yahweh. They knew him to be Yahweh, but God, in respect of that name, did not make Himself fully known to them

So, they did not fully know Yahweh, right, and knew just a bit about Yahweh, and could have mistaken the voice in their head for the voice of a god just as you misunderstand the bible sometimes?

I'm seriously worried about you muttley. In your attempt to swindle others, you can't but help swindling yourself and it can't be healthy. Seek help, I advise you!

budaatum:
So, they did not fully know Yahweh, right, and knew just a bit about Yahweh, and could have mistaken the voice in their head for the voice of a god just as you misunderstand the bible sometimes?

I'm seriously worried about you muttley. In your attempt to swindle others, you can't but help swindling yourself and it can't be healthy. Seek help, I advise you!

They knew Yahweh alright budaatum, but didnt know Yahweh in the context of what the name means, entails and/or what it is all about

budaatum, now you have got me seriously worried about you. budaatum where and when have you found MuttleyLaff solicit for money, or indulge in any activity here on Nairaland or elsewhere in private and public to have pecuniary gain?