Kobojunkie:

The government is ACTUALLY ALREADY involved in providing housing, even in its present financial state. . .  From what you have above, we can conclude then that the government is short-sighted for considering that an issue of importance, even at this time, right?

In a country where there is a great need for housing( I believe the estimate was for at least 100's of thousands more units or something like that), I would not think it short-sighted for any government to decide to consider the needs of the people, as pertains housing. States like Enugu are leading the way in the effort to provide housing for it's citizens, I am not certain why anyone would consider it short-sighted for any other government in the same country to pursue any efforts to help ease the problem.

It is indeed shortsighted and silly. . . .

Housing is a black hole for funds, a luxury in a city that
has far more pressing issues.

tensor777:

Well Mr Mariory I am aware of the econiums showered upon the regime which is all well and good.

However playing the advocate of some left-wingers here I can see how the mere fact that the regime has been awarding so many contracts for things which should be properly initiated by the private sector, would give the poor man the impression that Fashola's Government has money to burn.

What I am saying is that things like electric power generation, transport rolling stock,  water transport, shopping complexes and the like should properly be left to the private sector.

It also raises the ancilliary question as to how Fashola is funding these mega projects and what is the exact state of Lagos State finances

Most of these projects that you speak of being done in partnership with the private sector. The state government definitely does not have the finances to provide these projets alone and the private sector in most cases do not want to take 100% risk by going it alone in a country like Nigeria.

ocho cinco:

It is indeed shortsighted and silly. . . .

Housing is a black hole for funds, a luxury in a city that
has far more pressing issues.

You keep posting that over and I find that it is probably best to get you to explain where you are going with this. How can HOUSING be classified as LUXURY in any country or city? The last time I checked it was considered a necessity, now you claim it is a luxury? Since when did housing became a BLACK HOLE for funds? And what are these more pressing issues you keep referring to?

Black hole in the sense that it will simply keep consuming money.

Majority of the population that have no housing are that way because they
don't have any money and they don't have any money because they have no
jobs.

So obviously, you need to create opportunities where people can have money
to afford housing which you might choose to build or not build.

These people have a better chance to improve their lives much more swiftly
with better access for people, goods and services.

Mariory:

Most of these projects that you speak of being done in partnership with the private sector. The state government definitely does not have the finances to provide these projets alone and the private sector in most cases do not want to take 100% risk by going it alone in a country like Nigeria.

The point I'm making is that the government should not, at the moment anyway, be getting involved in these expensive social projects in the first place.

Secondly the private sector would only get involved in these projects if they were economically viable. From the point of view if the private sector it would be more sensible for instance to build housing units for the business and professional class as they would provide a better rate of return. Another benefit is that jobs would still be provided with these type of 100% private projects thus boosting income and employment levels.

What I'm saying is that the government is attempting to do too many things at once. They are in effect in soccer parlance playing the role of a referee and the team captain simultaneously. That is the real reason for their parlous finances.

ocho cinco:

Black hole in the sense that it will simply keep consuming money.

Since when did investment into housing become a black hole phenomena? Is this what happens to all projects geared towards providing housing or an assumption of yours?

States like Enugu, Rivers even the federal capital territory have similar projects running for years now and it has been to the benefit of the populace. Not sure the state or those who have benefitted from such projects would consider them black holes. About 3 decades ago, Lagos state had a massive housing project going which benefitted many of the low income people in the society. The government through this project was able to sell units to lower income citizens at subsidized rates. That eventually was abandoned mostly due to our maintenance culture and not because the program itself failed.

ocho cinco:

Majority of the population that have no housing are that way because they
don't have any money and they don't have any money because they have no
jobs.
So obviously, you need to create opportunities where people can have money
to afford housing which you might choose to build or not build.

These people have a better chance to improve their lives much more swiftly
with better access for people, goods and services.

So, in the meantime, they can remain homeless while they wait for the jobs to start showing up? I am not sure I follow what you are suggesting happen here.  Are we saying housing is a luxury and so only those who can afford it should have it?  Is government then to halt all current housing projects geared towards providing housing for the poor since these are the have nots in our society and by your claim there, a luxury?

ocho cinco:

Black hole in the sense that it will simply keep consuming money.
Majority of the population that have no housing are that way because they
don't have any money and they don't have any money because they have no
jobs.

Yes the black hole is that presumably even if the houses are completed to specification and on time ,which in of itself would be unusual,  is that the housing units would still have to be maintained.
That is water bills, electricity bills and wear and tear bills would still be incurred and paid for year in year out.

Kobojunkie:

Since when did investment into housing become a black hole phenomena? Is this what happens to all projects geared towards providing housing or an assumption of yours?
States like Enugu, Rivers even the federal capital territory have similar projects running for years now and it has been to the benefit of the populace. Not sure the state or those who have benefitted from such projects would consider them black holes. About 3 decades ago, Lagos state had a massive housing project going which benefitted many of the low income people in the society. The government through this project was able to sell units to lower income citizens at subsidized rates. That eventually was abandoned mostly due to our maintenance culture and not because the program itself failed.

Yet kobojunkie was it really the poor that benefitted from these projects as opposed to employed civil servants and middle class professionals?
The maintenance culture is crucial though if you are talking about giving houses to people who are unemployed or those on very low income. Who pays for that year in, year out?

tensor777:

Yet kobojunkie was it really the poor that benefitted from these projects as opposed to employed civil servants and middle class professionals?

It would unjust of me to deny that the poor in our society did benefit from the housing project of the early 80's. In my particular area, those who lived in the low cost housing units were poor folks who had to get on a special payment plan with the government for those units.

tensor777:

The maintenance culture is crucial though if you are talking about giving houses to people who are unemployed or those on very low income. Who pays for that tear in year out?

Am I to assume, by your question above, that all poor/low income individuals cannot afford to make payments of any kind for housing?

Kobojunkie. . . there are scarce resources, and the government has to choose
between giving people houses that will only conceal their idleness or infrastructure
that would eventually keep these people occupied.

In a world where the government was flush with cash, then by all means it can
attend to the housing, but till then, it only makes sense to get people moving.

ocho cinco:

Kobojunkie. . . there are scarce resources, and the government has to choose
between giving people houses that will only conceal their idleness or infrastructure
that would eventually keep these people occupied.

Resources have always been scarce. At what point does government then decide that an already determined pressing need of the populace is worth investing resources in?

How exactly does creating projects that help provide housing amount to giving people houses that will only conceal?

ocho cinco:

In a world where the government was flush with cash, then by all means it can
attend to the housing, but till then, it only makes sense to get people moving.

In what world is government flushed with cash?

Lol. . . Just off my head I reckon Lagos alone would need at least one million units of housing.

Even if the state government were to use its whole budget, it still wouldn't make any dent
in the housing shortfall, and considering the projections on the population growth rate, the
government would be building houses for a long time to come.

Roads, public transport and the power benefit everyone.

I mean, come on, you are a smart fellow.

ocho cinco:

Lol. . . Just off my head I reckon Lagos alone would need at least one million units of housing.
Even if the state government were to use its whole budget, it still wouldn't make any dent
in the housing shortfall, and considering the projections on the population growth rate, the
government would be building houses for a long time to come.
Roads, public transport and the power benefit everyone.
I mean, come on, you are a smart fellow.

You did not answer the questions .

Are you suggesting that because you feel the government cannot even put a dent in the problem, the government should not even bother itself with trying to solve the problem at all?

Considering the same projections on the population growth rate, the government would also need to build roads, and invest in public transport for a long time to come, so should it stop investing in those as well?

Don't worry about my smartness, I would appreciate it if you would at least answer some of the questions since they are asked with your own claims in mind.

Kobojunkie:

It would unjust of me to deny that the poor in our society did benefit from the housing project of the early 80's. In my particular area, those who lived in the low cost housing units were poor folks who had to get on a special payment plan with the government for those units.
Am I to assume, by your question above, that all poor/low income individuals cannot afford to make payments of any kind for housing?

Special payment plan implies they had to have a regular source of income in the first place no matter how small. And what percentage of Lagosians can boast of such a regular source of income? The rest who don't have such a source of income and who form the majority would still not be covered.
A wider point is that these people are already accomodated somewhere even if it is in an uncompleted building for which they have some sort of agreement with the landlord. Should it be an immediate priority to move these people into highrise or projects flats even when they don't have a regular source of income?
A more pressing issue should be for government to give way for the private sector to create the much needed jobs which in turn would make standard accomodation more affordable for the citizenry.
In practical terms things like clearing the streets of agberos and touts, environmental sanitation, maintaining and constructing roads and bridges and cutting down on graft and corruption would have a salutary effect on investment and job creation.

I think I have addressed your questions actually.

I don't think the government should bother itself with
Housing at this point in time. NOT AT ALL

And it benefits a far greater number if the Government
perpetually spends it funds on Public Transport and Roads,
than if it spent them on Housing.

I hope that is clear enough.

ocho cinco:

I think I have addressed your questions actually.

I don't think the government should bother itself with
Housing at this point in time. NOT AT ALL

And it benefits a far greater number if the Government
perpetually spends it funds on Public Transport and Roads,
than if it spent them on Housing.

I hope that is clear enough.

I thought you were basing any of what you were saying on facts and I was wondering if you had some back up data to support any of it.

i don't understand.

You need concrete facts to prove that Lagos suffers from a severe transport deficit that has critically hampered the city's competitiveness?

tensor777:

Special payment plan implies they had to have a regular source of income in the first place no matter how small. And what percentage of Lagosians can boast of such a regular source of income? The rest who don't have such a source of income and who form the majority would still not be covered.

I don't understand at this point where are coming from or going with this.  I indicated that the government had such a project to help the low income earners in the same state, about 30 or so years ago and the project went well if not for eventual collapse which was experience in all areas.
Are you now suggesting that the government first consider how many people can afford regular payments of any kind before embarking on any project meant to ease the housing situation?

tensor777:

A wider point is that these people are already accomodated somewhere even if it is in an uncompleted building for which they have some sort of agreement with the landlord. Should it be an immediate priority to move these people into highrise or projects flats even when they don't have a regular source of income?

You speak as if the situation only affects a couple hundred people. Who are THESE people?  Why are you shooting for moving them to highrise or project flats? Why do you assume they all do not have regular sources of income?

tensor777:

A more pressing issue should be for government to give way for the private sector to create the much needed jobs which in turn would make standard accomodation more affordable for the citizenry.

Nothing currently stops the private sector from doing just that and they have for the last 30 years been at it. But the housing deficit still exists and it makes no sense to continue to ignore that issue considering we are all aware of the impending population explosion.

tensor777:

In practical terms things like clearing the streets of agberos and touts, environmental sanitation, maintaining and constructing roads  and bridges and cutting down on graft and corruption would have a salutary effect on investment and job creation.

clearing the streets of agberos and touts? More important than providing affordable housing for constituents? ROFLMAO!!

ocho cinco:

i don't understand.

You need concrete facts to prove that Lagos suffers from a severe transport deficit that has critically hampered the city's competitiveness?

Oh no!! that problem is just as obvious as the housing problem which the government has clearly noted can no longer be ignored as well. Problem is, you keep coming up with reasons why government should not even bother doing that and not really basing them on facts, is what I mean. You have made some outlandish claims of the situation, that I wanted so much for more evidence of those claims.

What outlandish claims might this be?

Lets start with your claim that housing is a luxury.

Its a luxury in terms of the government's finances. It has significantly more
important priorities.

And it is an opinion. Obviously, your opinion on the matter differs.

ocho cinco:

Its a luxury in terms of the government's finances. It has significantly more
important priorities.

And it is an opinion. Obviously, your opinion on the matter differs.

Housing is defined as a basic necessity by most all government agencies out there. Your opinion is just that then, yours and not even shared by government agencies out there, both Nigerian and none.

Here is something from a report put together by a Nigerian( I believe)

Housing, literally is defined as Buildings or other shelters in which people live, a place to live, a dwelling etc and to Nations a critical component in social and economic fabric. Housing represents one of the most basic human needs. As a unit of the environment, it has a profound influence on the health, efficiency, social behavior, satisfaction and general welfare of the community (Onibokun 1998). To most groups housing means shelter but to others it means more as it serves as one of the best indicators of a person’s standard of living and his or her place in the society (Nubi, 2008). It is a priority for the attainment of living standard and it is important to both rural and urban areas. These attribute make demand for housing to know no bound as population growth and urbanization are increase very rapidly and the gap between housing need and supply becomes widen. Cultural factors such as preferences and values or social status, taste and financial resources, also influence a home physical characteristics. In developing countries, poor housing delivery has been attributed to inadequate mechanisms and systems for land allocation, funding, mortgage institutions and infrastructure (Encarta, 2007).

http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_129767_en.pdf

Anyways, will you explain how providing affordable housing, or funding such projects will only result in black holes? Last I checked we still have to continue funding infrastructure projects --- it never really ends.

Kobojunkie:

Housing is defined as a basic necessity by most all government agencies out there. Your opinion is just that then, yours and not even shared by government agencies out there, both Nigerian and none.

Here is something from a report put together by a Nigerian( I believe)

lol. . I never pretended it was nothing else but my opinion.

And oh well. . .its a shame I am not an agency of some kind. Then
my opinion will carry some heft. Oh well.

ocho cinco:

lol. . I never pretended it was nothing else but my opinion.

And oh well. . .its a shame I am not an agency of some kind. Then
my opinion will carry some heft. Oh well.

I was interested in learning why anyone would consider housing a luxury. I sincerely wanted to explore that a bit more because it never really occurred to me that housing could be a luxury, not even in anywhere Africa.

Kobojunkie:

I don't understand at this point where are coming from or going with this.  I indicated that the government had such a project to help the low income earners in the same state, about 30 or so years ago and the project went well if not for eventual collapse which was experience in all areas.
Are you now suggesting that the government first consider how many people can afford regular payments of any kind before embarking on any project meant to ease the housing situation?

Yes even though it is a govt project there still has to be proper cost-benefit appraisal if the project is not to collapse as in the past. In other words people that can't afford to meet up their payments should not be considered. However my own point is that I don't assess the government as being organized and professional enough as to run this kind of undertaking.

Kobojunkie:

You speak as if the situation only affects a couple hundred people. Who are THESE people?  Why are you shooting for moving them to highrise or project flats? Why do you assume they all do not have regular sources of income?

Well as far as I know the FGN, the LASG and the organized private sector provide housing in kind or in cash to their workers resident in Lagos state. Self employed merchants and professionals in private practice are able to get quality or standard accomodation in the private sector. So that just leaves the petty traders the artisans, and the unemployed The question is what is their priority. Is it accomodation or a proper job of work?

Well. . . .food is a basic necessity, and some people go without as a sacrifice
for other kind of wants, often because what they make sacrifices for serves
them better.

And others decide they want to eat rather than make that sacrifice.

Either way, one of these ''basic wants'' you alluded to has become a luxury.

No one is denying that having a roof over your head is desirable. But this is a
case where the government has to make sacrifices.

Even in Africa, juju can't be used to conjure money in the air to satisfy all wants at
thesame time.

Kobojunkie:

Nothing currently stops the private sector from doing just that and they have for the last 30 years been at it. But the housing deficit still exists and it makes no sense to continue to ignore that issue considering we are all aware of the impending population explosion.
clearing the streets of agberos and touts? More important than providing affordable housing for constituents? ROFLMAO!!

Well land is expensive as are building materials so it makes little sense for the private sector to concentrate on building houses for people on very low income. Let them build houses for those who have the wherewithal that would enable the investors to make a good return on investment. Luckily this market is still growing thanks to the recent economic growth.

Secondly clearing the streets of parasitic touts and thugs would considerably reduce the cost of doing business and thus boost private sector investment and job creation. I am being serious.

tensor777:

Yes even though it is a govt project there still has to be proper cost-benefit appraisal if the project is not yo collapse as in the past. In other words people that can't afford to meet up their payments should not be considered. However my own point is that I don't assess the government as being organized and professional enough as to run this kind of undertaking. Well as far as I know the FGN, the LASG and the organized private sector provide housing in kind or in cash to their workers resident in Lagos state.

The good thing is government does not have be directly involved in construction of new housing units, but it can help providing housing subsidies or negotiating contracts that can help make the units affordable to more people.  
Like you mention, Government already provides such waivers/vouchers for employees, and it could extend it or similar to low income people out there.

tensor777:

Self employed merchants and professionals in private practice are able to get quality or standard accomodation in the private sector. So that just leaves the petty traders the artisans, and the unemployed The question is what is their priority. Is it accomodation or a proper job of work?

Again I have to mention that housing is a basic necessity, and this is recognized by WHO and every reputable agency out there. I don't think it is fair to ask that people be made to choose between having access to jobs or affordable housing.

tensor777:

Well land is expensive as are building materials so it makes little sense for the private sector to concentrate on building houses for people on very low income. Let them build houses for those who have the wherewithal that would enable the investors to make a good return on investment. Luckily this market is still growing thanks to the recent economic growth.

Again, housing is a basic need, and so should not be just for those who can satisfy investors with good returns.

tensor777:

Secondly clearing the streets of parasitic touts and thugs would considerably reduce the cost of doing business and thus boost private sector investment and job creation. I am being serious.

I am certain that touts are nowhere at the top of the list for majority in Lagos who are still lacking the basic necessities. Sure, you can come up with a model explaining how removing touts will be the answer to all the problems. But is it that you forget to consider the very reason why we have such touts in the first place. Most of them were raised living right on our streets and they go around doing anything they can now so they can afford a roof over their heads.

Interresting thread!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was actually going to make a thread like this before.

Which country's environment [between Nigeria and US] is more friendly to poor homeless people?