Please do not attempt to compare the US with Nigeria, even in that light. We(in Nigeria) are still light years from being able to do that reasonably.

Kobojunkie:

Please do not attempt to compare the US with Nigeria, even in that light. We(in Nigeria) are still light years from being able to do that reasonably.

LOL stop it

But I think I'd rather be a poor man in Nigeria than USA.

It will be unfair to rate the impact of the Fashola administration on the poor in isolation of Nigeria, the other constituent states and the other poor neighbouring countries. It is a known fact that the continous improvement in the quality of living in Lagos attracts droves of the poor from other poorer states and even from west africca. The impact of this is a falling GDP when measured at per with the rising population. The reason is not far fetched, most of the immigating poor pays little or no tax to the government.

To answer the question, I will, in relative terms, say 'Yes'. What was d state of the poor in Lagos before the advent of the Fashola administration. How much is spent on programmes that impacts directly on the poor.What fraction of the state revenue goes into programmes that impacts directly on the poor ?. 7 years ago, the administration started with an IGR of N5Biliion per month, today, with credit to the admin, the IGR have been upscaled to N15B. That is a great leap with which to take up a lot of projects that impacts on the poor and that is exactly what is being done. I wont need to mention all, because it has already been done. Untill similar developments are experienced in other states. The Lagos GDP will continously drop inspite of obvious infracstructural upgrade.

Kobojunkie:

Again, housing is a basic need, and so should not be just for those who can satisfy investors with good returns.

I sure know that shelter is a basic need. But at the moment no government in Nigeria has the resources to provide free shelter to the unemployed and/ or the petty traders.

There is also the vision thing. What sort of state should Lagos be? Should they concentrate on making the state attractive and conducive to investors, merchants and well educated professionals or should they aim at providing subsidized  food and shelter to petty traders, artisans, and the unemployed?

The answer is obvious in the sense that in the former scenario the state would be able to generate enough taxrevenue that would enable it to meet its basic obligations of security upholding law and order,sanitation, funding state schools and hospitals and maintaining and enhancing transport infrastructure.
The latter scenario would just lead to  financial bankruptcy in the short to medium term.

Kobojunkie:

I am certain that touts are nowhere at the top of the list for majority in Lagos who are still lacking the basic necessities. Sure, you can come up with a model explaining how removing touts will be the answer to all the problems. But is it that you forget to consider the very reason why we have such touts in the first place. Most of them were raised living right on our streets and they go around doing anything they can now so they can afford a roof over their heads.

Well it should be the priority of any serious government to rid the streets of dangerous criminal elements. In fact the Buba Marwa administration was able to deal with this problem decisivelyi the years he was in charge of Lagos.
They are, to be fair, products of dysfunctional polygamous homes and addicted to various forms of hard drugs. However any serious government should ensure that these dangerous miscreants are arrested, locked up and sent to labour-cum-boot camps. It is not the job of government to pander to their drug-fuelled existence and lifestyle.

tensor777:

I am know that shelter is a basic need. But at the moment no government in Nigeria has the resources to provide free shelter to the unemployed and/ or the petty traders.

Why do you interpret this to mean provision of FREE shelter? The various programs we have mentioned during this discourse have had nothing to do with provision of FREE accommodations of any kind by the government, so where does this now come from?

tensor777:

There is also the vision thing. What sort of state should Lagos be? Should they concentrate on making the state attractive and conducive to investors, merchants and well educated professionals or should they aim at providing subsidized food and shelter to petty traders, artisans, and the unemployed?

Lagos state is a state with a current population of about 18% with over 90% of that still poor. Unless you are going to follow the above by stating the plan is to kick out all poor people and replace them with the uber rich, may I suggest we stick to reality. Sure, Lagos can be conducive to investors, merchants and well educated professionals but at the same time deal fairly with the poor by making sure they are made a part of the society and cared for as well. It should not be either one or the other. Not in today's world.

tensor777:

The answer is obvious in the sense that in the former scenario the state would be able to generate enough taxrevenue that would enable it to meet its basic obligations of security upholding law and order,sanitation, funding state schools and hospitals and maintaining and enhancing transport infrastructure.
The latter scenario would just lead to financial bankruptcy in the short to medium term.

I don't know what your answer there is but again, most every successful state in the world today makes sure to not only provide for the rich but cater to the poor in the same society.

Kobojunkie:

Lagos state is a state with a current population of about 18% with over 90% of that still poor. Unless you are going to follow the above by stating the plan is to kick out all poor people and replace them with the uber rich, may I suggest we stick to reality. Sure, Lagos can be conducive to investors, merchants and well educated professionals but at the same time deal fairly with the poor by making sure they are made a part of the society and cared for as well. It should not be either one or the other. Not in today's world. 
I don't know what your answer there is but again, most every successful state in the world today makes sure to not only provide for the rich but cater to the poor in the same society.

Can you suggest how Lagos can achieve this? You have said free housing is not on the cards. So can you suggest how Lagos is to provide housing for the poor when the poor have no way to pay for said housing. Can you suggest where the money comes from and how it should be managed so it isn't lost like almost every other project in Nigeria as a whole. You talk the talk but, can you walk the walk?

You keep asking people to stick to reality, yet it is you that is living in fantasy land. The majority of people will happily have a home/village/town/city/state/country/world that is as close to utopia as humanly possible. However due to the state of Nigeria, Africa, and developing nations as a whole this is not possible. One should also mention that most developed cities in the West and East were once in a state that Lagos is in.

Mariory:

Can you suggest how Lagos can achieve this? You have said free housing is not on the cards. So can you suggest how Lagos is to provide housing for the poor when the poor have no way to pay for said housing. Can you suggest where the money comes from and how it should be managed so it isn't lost like almost every other project in Nigeria as a whole. You talk the talk but, can you walk the walk?
You keep asking people to stick to reality, yet it is you that is living in fantasy land. The majority of people will happily have a home/village/town/city/state/country/world that is as close to utopia as humanly possible. However due to the state of Nigeria, Africa, and developing nations as a whole this is not possible. One should also mention that most developed cities in the West and East were once in a state that Lagos is in.

Well I  just got fed up with explaining to her. Maybe she wants a US-style projects housing system in Nigeria forgetting  the fact that:-

1 USA have a very low unemployment rate

2 USA have a very efficient tax and social security system.

For now the priority in Lagos should be private sector investment and job creation and  not subsidized or free food and housing to the unemployed and petty traders

tensor777:

Well I  just got fed up with explaining to her. Maybe she wants a US style projects housing system in Nigeria forgetting  the fact that:-

1 USA have a very low unemployment rate

2 USA have a very efficient tax and social security system.

For now the priority in Lagos should be private sector investment and job creation and  not subsidized or free food and housing to the unemployed and petty traders

What the frell has USA to do with this debate?  We have been on Nigeria from page one.  why bring the USA into it at this point? Look back to see my responses to your claims so far on this.

Kobojunkie:

What l has USA to do with this debate?  We have been on Nigeria from page one.  why bring the USA into it at this point? Look back to see my responses to your claims so far on this.

Kobojunkie:

I don't know if you are in the united states but if you are, I bet you will understand why similar questions are asked here daily and what the information obtained means to so many out there today. So many Governors across the country have had to improve spending on programs to benefit the poor and unemployed directly and indirectly, as well. And yes, these governors have other things on their plates but still they know this to be just as important.

Well this is one of your quotes here where you make explicit reference to the fact that USA state governors have instituted programs that benefit the poor directly.
Is it not reasonable for me to conjecture that you would want the extant LASG to institute similar direct-aid-to-the-poor schemes??

@tensor777
Welcome to a "debate" with Kobojunkie. Soon you will see the light.

@Kobojunkie
My question still waits to be answered. For all your grandstanding and protraying yourself as a "champion" for the poor. What would you actually do to help the millions of poor in Lagos. At the very least make suggestions since the current programme in Lagos State is not adequate in your opinion.

tensor777:

Well this is one of your quotes here where you make explicit reference to the fact that USA state governors have instituted programs that benefit the poor directly.
Is it not reasonable for me to conjecture that you would want the extant LASG to institute similar direct-aid-to-the-poor schemes??

I am sorry you cannot use that as a reason to introduce USA in to the discussion at this point. That post was to that particular person, and it was in reference to the question being a necessary one, especially at this time.

Again, Focus  on Nigeria and the many examples we have visited so far that show that this sort is possible and is ALREADY happening in the same Nigeria, even as you resist it's possibility.  Also, focus on the fact that the governor of Lagos already has a program of this sort in the works to help lower class citizens. The World Bank already has money earmarked to help this in the same Lagos, I believe. Now can we please get back to you making your point, whatever it is.

kobo,the point is that this lagos or anyother state for that matter cant afford to carry out such programs that directly affect the poor.it will not make economic sense to go building houses for low incomers when basic infrastructure will favour them in the long run

phantom:

kobo,the point is that this lagos or anyother state for that matter cant afford to carry out such programs that directly affect the poor.it will not make economic sense to go building houses for low incomers when basic infrastructure will favour them in the long run

I think we are not connecting the dots when we claim states cannot afford to deal directly with that which affect the poor. You do realize how society works? If you do not cater to the poor, you get problems and that is why it makes sense to deal with that which concerns the poor, even as you deal with that which concerns the rich/investors/businessmen etc.

Someone on here is speaking of getting rid of touts without considering the reason why we have so many touts in the first place, why the many attempts to remove them from our streets have failed to this day, and why they have become so powerful a force in our society. Even the governor has had to learn that he cannot just will them away, there is a reason they exist and continue to multiply .

, and you have indeed been comparing nigeria to the us since page 1.the economic realities in the US are different from what we have here.1.our uncontrolled population is a big minus 2.zero maintenance culture. 3.poor record keeping so mortgages are out of the question, i could go on,

Kobojunkie:

I think we are not connecting the dots when we claim states cannot afford to deal directly with that which affect the poor. You do realize how society works? If you do not cater to the poor, you get problems and that is why it makes sense to deal with that which concerns the poor, even as you deal with that which concerns the rich/investors/businessmen etc.

Can you please answer the darn question already. At least lets know what your actual ideas are.

phantom:

, and you have indeed been comparing nigeria to the us since page 1.the economic realities in the US are different from what we have here.1.our uncontrolled population is a big minus 2.zero maintenance culture. 3.poor record keeping so mortgages are out of the question, i could go on,   

No I have not . . . a comparison was only made to show the question was necessary. At no point have I compared Nigerian economy or the financial status or anything of the kind of Nigerian states with states in the US. Please go back to read what I typed to you and why I did @Phantom

REMEMBER THIS . . . . about the question

phantom:

fine,i know you belong to the 'why praise a gov,when hes doing what he should do'club.i belong to that club too but seriously,what is the basis for comparing fasholas govt to yardies?the drive for good governance was obviously lacking in the latter.l[b]ook at the topic again and tell me if it doesnt smack of mischief. [/b]

phantom:

lol, and i thought you were serious all this while.you are really good at being sarcastic.i had a really good laugh.lol

Remember this response from me on the same issue of the QUESTION being fair?

I am not being sarcastic in any way. I am simply wanting to know what you are getting at here.  The question is a very good one. Problem is I don't understand why you feel the need to defend the government in this when there are millions of poor lagoscians out there who could potentially benefit from answers to this.

I don't know if you are in the united states but if you are, I bet you will understand why similar questions are asked here daily and what the information obtained means to so many out there today. So many Governors across the country have had to improve spending on programs to benefit the poor and unemployed directly and indirectly, as well. And yes, these governors have other things on their plates but still they know this to be

I am not sure how that can be termed as me comparing the Lagos to the US. We were simply questioning the fairness of such a question here . . and I believe my point was that it is valid to ask government, no matter where, even here in the US, what it is doing for the poor and unemployed.

Fine,your approach is akin to cutting a branch to fall a tree instead of the roots.what we need do in these parts is reduce drastically the gap between the rich and the poor or rather widen the middle class.how do you do that?level the playing field.build infrastructure that cuts across, so they both have the same challenges in lookin for the daily bread.

phantom:

[b]Fine,your approach is akin to cutting a branch to fall a tree instead of the roots.[/b]what we need do in these parts is reduce drastically the gap between the rich and the poor or rather widen the middle class.how do you do that?level the playing field.build infrastructure that cuts across, so they both have the same challenges in lookin for the daily bread.

First of all, where did you get the part in bold from? How do you reduce drastically the gap between the rich and poor if you are unwilling to pay special attention to the poor in the first place? Do you think that automagically happens when you build roads, hospitals, malls etc?

Pathetic!

kobo, sorry cant see the bolded cos i m doin this on my phone but let me ask, how will you short cut approach work? okay you build houses for the unemployed,then what?does that stop him from going out and robbing?how does it put an end to the problems of the poor?i am talking of the domino effect, you are talkin of knockin off just one piece.i believe it will be a mistake taking on on projects targeted at the poor at this stage in our national life.not that we cant afford it,but its financing would be put to better use in buildin a system first.with this we cant go wrong.

phantom:

kobo, sorry cant see the bolded cos i m doin this on my phone but let me ask, how will you short cut approach work? okay you build houses for the unemployed,then what?does that stop him from going out and robbing? how does it put an end to the problems of the poor? i am talking of the domino effect, you are talkin of knockin off just one piece.i believe it will be a mistake taking on on projects targeted at the poor at this stage in our national life.not that we cant afford it,but its financing would be put to better use in buildin a system first.with this we cant go wrong.

I have not suggested any solution at this point. Simply pointing out the various realities that currently exist and how ignoring the problem is not necessarily a good way to solve it.

I am not certain what you mean when you say "build houses for the unemployed". I asked someone earlier why when the word poor is mentioned, it seems people automatically think poor/unemployed people only.

Fine, you state you believe it will be a mistake to take on projects targeted at the poor, at this stage, but mind telling us at what point down the road we should start caring about the condition of the poor in our society, which is over 80% poor and GROWING.

Kobojunkie:

I have not suggested any solution at this point. Simply pointing out the various realities that currently exist and how ignoring the problem is not necessarily a good way to solving it.

[size=16pt]ROFLMAO![/size]

Kobojunkie:

I have not suggested any solution at this point. Simply pointing out the various realities that currently exist and how ignoring the problem is not necessarily a good way to solve it.
I am not certain what you mean when you say "build houses for the unemployed". I asked someone earlier why when the word poor is mentioned, it seems people automatically think poor/unemployed people only.

Well you have been very good at using your analytical skills to point out the challenges faced by the poor and the unemployed in Lagos State which is all well and good.
However, its very possible that one day you yourself  would executive power in the state so you may as well outline here your own blueprint for socio-economic development of the teeming  masses if you were indeed to hold power bearing in mind the existing finacial constraints.

tensor777:

Well you have been very good at using your analytical skills to point out the challenges faced by the poor and the unemployed in Lagos State which is all well and good.
However, its very possible that one day you yourself  would executive power in the state so you may as well outline here your own blueprint for socio-economic development of the teeming  masses if you were indeed to hold power bearing in mind the existing finacial constraints.

And this is where I go back to people using their heads instead of trying to inject sentiments into this in anyway. The job of a governor, no matter where is to cater to the welfare of the people. And that means going beyond building of roads and other infrastructure when necessary, to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to move up from one class to another if they so choose.

So, let's please cut past the "one day you yourself would have executive power in a state" BULL and tackle this as human beings/citizens who are well aware of the full responsibilities of government in our society to all and sundry.

The saying "True measure of a country's (state's) greatness is how it treats its most unfortunate citizens" couldn't be more appropriate in this thread.

Nemisis is a mother!

ndu_chucks:

The saying "True measure of a country's (state's) greatness is how it treats its most unfortunate citizens" couldn't be more appropriate in this thread.
Nemisis is a mother!

Well you can't expect government alone to shoulder the burden of looking after the poor. We should all try to play our part there.
That notwithstanding the government should and must concentrate on providing more comprehensive solutions to the problem of unemployment and poverty as opposed to just giving out free food and housing.
Basic issues like security, law and order, accountability, and transport infrastructure would go a long way towards opening up the state for business development and job creation.

tensor777:

Well you can't expect government alone to shoulder the burden of looking after the poor. We should all try to play our part there.
That notwithstanding the government should and must concentrate on providing more comprehensive solutions to the problem of unemployment and poverty as opposed to just giving out free food and housing.
Basic issues like security, law and order, accountability, and transport infrastructure would go a long way towards opening up the state for business development and job creation.

Government is the only institution out there with a mandate to ensure the welfare of all the people.  No individual is responsible for the welfare of the poor -- that is part of what Government is there for in the first place.

Kobojunkie:

Government is the only institution out there with a mandate to ensure the welfare of all the people.  No individual is responsible for the welfare of the poor -- that is part of what Government is there for in the first place.

Now that is a very strange answer. What about personal and parental resposibility for that?
Sometimes people's lifestyle choices directly leads to a life of  poverty and deprivation. Things like polygamy,  having too many children, truancy and dropping out of school to make quick money.
No government in Nigeria is rich enough to take care of the poor as demographically the numbers are just overwhelming. There is a problem in Lagos of uncontrolled migration of the  rural poor to Lagos a problem that does not occur in developed countries. In of itself this creates a security and law and order  problem, an environmental sanitation problem, and puts intolerable strain on existing state schools and state hospitals.

tensor777:

Now that is a very strange answer. What about personal and parental resposibility for that?
Sometimes people's lifestyle choices directly leads to a life of poverty and deprivation. Things like polygamy, having too many children, truancy and dropping out of school to make quick money.

Personal and parental responsibility for poverty? You mean there is a command/law somewhere that mandates this in some way?

tensor777:

No government in Nigeria is rich enough to take care of the poor as demographically the numbers are just overwhelming. There is a problem in Lagos of uncontrolled migration of the rural poor to Lagos a problem that does not occur in developed countries. In of itself this creates a security and law and order problem, an environmental sanitation problem, and puts intolerable strain on existing state schools and state hospitals.

Government was never designed on the belief that it is possible for it to be rich enough to take care of all the needs of the poor. I am sure the first people who decided they needed a governmental structure in place new this for a fact. So throwing it around makes no sense to this debate.

Lagos is not the only government dealing with the problems outlined so I see no reason why that should be used as an excuse to ignore the poor in the society, whose number have multiplied over the past couple of years alone.

Kobojunkie:

Personal and parental responsibility for poverty? You mean there is a command/law somewhere that mandates this in some way?

Yes it is the law of nature. Lack of child spacing, having too many children does lead to child poverty and inordinate pressure on these kids to drop out of school and go into things like petty trading.
How many people do you know who have gotten rich solely by petty trading??
You think those parents that decided to have just a couple of kids and were consequently able to send their kids to university to read professional courses like law and medicine would not benefit in the long run??
What are you on about??

So if the government builds roads and develops transport links, it isn't helping the poor?

@kobojunkie