Joagbaje says:

Joagbaje:

The inheritance of Christians is here now and the world to come.

Talk about eating your cake and having it.

But the Bible says:

aletheia:

[i][b]1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

And I notice you didn't actually answer this:

aletheia:



^So what was the "pastor" of the OP doing? Exercising his faith? Claiming his inheritance?

Does that mean you approve of his message?

aletheia:

Joagbaje says:The inheritance of Christians is here now and the world to come.

Talk about eating your cake and having it.But the Bible says:[i]1 Peter 1:3-4  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Check this out:
Mark 10:29-30
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

And I notice you didn't actually answer this:  So what was the "pastor" of the OP doing? Exercising his faith? Claiming his inheritance?Does that mean you approve of his message?

That wasn't a message in the first place . Some people are prophets ( this one may be fake) a prophet may be anointed only to see and prophesy and work miracles etc. Many prophets can't teach. Such should have a pastor and teacher working with them to balance the brethren. If not he will teach nonsense.except of course he humbles himself to learn.

Joagbaje:

Check this out:
Mark 10:29-30
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Oga JoeAgbaje,

Howdy?   

I see you haven't learned any new tricks

The lands and houses and mothers and fathers and etc. that Jesus mentioned above,  did he mean believers who'd given up such for him would literally regain 100 mothers and lands in the here and now?? C'mon, uncle Joe!     

And err.  .  .  How come Paul, Peter, James, John and the others didn't get their 100 fold returns for this life?? Doesn't this alone tell you something? 

Are those fellows not supposed to be the best Christian examples we have? 

I think it was aletheia who pointed you to this portion of scripture earlier:

3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living [size=14pt]hope[/size] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, [size=14pt]kept[b] in heaven[/b][/size] for you,

5 who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 ¶ In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials,

7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1;3-7

Joagbaje:

That wasn't a message in the first place . Some people are prophets ( this one may be fake) a prophet may be anointed only to see and prophesy and work miracles etc. Many prophets can't teach. Such should have a pastor and teacher working with them to balance the brethren. If not he will teach nonsense.except of course he humbles himself to learn.

Care to share what scriptures pastor christ teachings this is based on? 

petres_007:

The lands and houses and mothers and fathers and etc. that Jesus mentioned above,  did he mean believers who'd given up such for him would literally regain 100 mothers and lands in the here and now?? C'mon, uncle Joe!     

Precisely, or do you want to give it any private interpretation?

And err.  .  .  How come Paul, Peter, James, John and the others didn't get their 100 fold returns for this life?? Doesn't this alone tell you something?  Are those fellows not supposed to be the best Christian examples we have? 

It's their choice, how come Jesus and Paul didn't Marry? Do you believe in marriage? Or celibacy. All things are available for the Christian. You decide what you lay hold on , based on your assignment.each person decides, but they have right to know what belongs to them.

I think it was aletheia who pointed you to this portion of scripture earlier:
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living [size=14pt]hope[/size] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, [size=14pt]kept[b] in heaven[/b][/size] for you,
5 who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 ¶ In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials,
7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1;3-7
Care to share what scriptures pastor christ teachings this is based on? 

There is inheritance here and beyond. And for your information there is no physica inheritance in heaven . The physical blessing is here and now for this who care. Nothing is wrong in making Christians know they can come out of sufferings by knowing what is available to them.

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.


1 Timothy 6:17
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 

Joagbaje:

Precisely, or do you want to give it any private interpretation?  

You miss my point sir.

If Jesus wasn't referring to a literal 100 fold returns in the here and now, then your "private interpretation" of the returns meaning or including wealth and riches in the here and now falls apart.

Joagbaje:

It's their choice,

Any scriptural backing for this?

Joagbaje:

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

The second you guys see "rich" anywhere in scripture, you take it to mean earthly/financial/material wealth, eh?

How about this one?

21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

Luke 12:21

Or this one:

17 For you say, I am rich , I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

18 Therefore I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may be rich , and white garments to clothe you and to keep the shame of your unclothedness from being seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see.

Rev 3:17-18

Surely, Jesus wasn't referring to worldy riches in these verses, no?

Eww, see better business ooooo, I am beggining to nurse a thought,

@ deapsight,

You have to understand the only reason we are paying attention to this thread is because of you and the respect you command on this Forum , there is a person that would have started this thread, no one will take it seriously,

it will be funny to think we will continue taking this thread seriously without you mentioning this pastor and the name of the church, every one is beggining to think that you made up the story yourself, and beleive me, if that is what every one concludes, it will adversly affect your respect and reputation here,

i dont have problem with that, but i hope you got my point.

InesQor:

This is just a reminder that we have successfully steered the conversation in other (though related) directions. We are rather waiting on our distinguished Lawyer Deep Sight to prove that this story is not a figment of his imagination (Odunnu's words) by mentioning the name of the church, even as our Nairaland LandLord (Seun) and also Tudor and Nuclearboy have sincerely wondered as well why Deep Sight should be protecting the church's name (moreso Deep Sight has confirmed that the lady is NOT on Nairaland, so his secret is safe). I maintain that the church's name will not only lend credence to the "story" but will also help in further discusssion on the topic.

Deep Sight, we are waiting. It's 5 days now. And the last time you logged in was yesterday. Surely the church name should be easy to remember?

banom:

Eww, see better business ooooo, I am beggining to nurse a thought,

@ deapsight,

You have to understand the only reason we are paying attention to this thread is because of you and the respect you command on this Forum , there is a person that would have started this thread, no one will take it seriously,

it will be funny to think we will continue taking this thread seriously without you mentioning this pastor and the name of the church, every one is beggining to think that you made up the story yourself, and beleive me, if that is what every one concludes, it will adversly affect your respect and reputation here,

i dont have problem with that, but i hope you got my point.

Think what you will: No - remains my answer - I am not certain that I have particularly conveyed the impression of one who is desperate to be in anybody's good books. If I have: that is a false picture of who I am.

My reason for not disclosing the name of the church remains simple: doubtless it will lead to unsavoury recriminations - which in my view is entirely needless. Heaven forbid that I be involved in a "yes he did/ no he didn't" sort of yabbis session with anybody - with the pettiness that cannot be escaped therein. I insist that what should be of concern is how - exactly how - on a psycological level, people could entertain such abuse as worship.

Perhaps you have missed the more subtle point that if people will accept this - there is nothing that people will not accept - and this has been proven - with recorded cases of certain "churches" even inciting mass suicide. This is what should be cause for mature reflection - and not the "name and shame" game.

If any person has cogent reaosns why I must name the church - please do proffer same: if they make sense to me, perhaps I will change my mind.

One thing I have decided to do though, is to purchase the audio recording of that sermon and perhaps I will be able to share parts of it on this forum - if i get it.

@Deepsight
The fact is that a lot of people who read your account are doubting the authenticity of your story and they require more proof which would of course include the name of the church. Personally I don't put anything past church pastors. The case of Rev King is still fresh in our minds. This demon regularly flogged his church members, slept with member's wives to their knowledge and even murdered a church member in broad day light, he has now been convicted of murder and awaiting execution yet three years later his members still remain extremely devoted to him. So you see the pastor you are talking about is just child's play in this racket. Personally I think it would do some good if you mentioned the church and pastor. I think enough time as been given to discuss the psycology behind it which you are more interested in. I think it is time to take the discussion to the next level by revealing the missing details.

@ Kunle, my dear and most respected friend -

It is not necessary for anybody to believe that which I shared. Anyone is free to disbelieve it. I believe there are recorded cases of even worse behaviour from the pulpit. Some posters have posted videos on this thread. So if there is any person who imagines it is too dramatic to be true - so be it.

As I stated above - the "name and shame" game will lead to petty recriminations. I am not interetsed in that.

I actually agree with DeepSight's reasons. What I think he fails to realise is that many people here, though assured that these people will as easily do the stated as breathe, wonder if this particular example is not a figment of his imagination and concocted out of thin air. But the story is credible as we all know they do worse regularly. So keep your name to yourself, DS.

The point you wish considered is why would such thrive? I believe it thrives because we have turned all things into an academic exercise - Christianity has become a guy practicing in front of his mirror. Grammar, inflections, timing and delivery, of course accompanied by favorable peer review, have become of more import than the spirit behind Mankind.

My personal musings inform that if created in the image of God, man ought be a solution provider - a homeless child needs a place, give it to him! A deprived young woman requires help to complete education, offer it to her FREE. Feed widows, the orphans etc. These are the tasks God does - answering prayers and providing succour and all for free. The best you can give anyway is to say "thank you". But where the basic message behind Christianity details the above, what we have today is people seeing the belief system as a means to their own glorification - either as tithe-payers (expecting "returns" from God) or as tithe-collectors (I ate my cake and still got it). Which is why your MOGS win and why only a very few of us detest the concept.

Sadly, DS is part of the problem when you see the legality and not the motive. You see a guy using language constructs to explain away theft, avarice and greed and you say "His words are scriptural". So why do you have issues with such going the hog and demanding money?

The truth is that the real message has been lost. We were created in the image of God. But how many of us are truly "gods" (solution providers and creators). Maybe that is what we ought discuss - what exactly should a Christian be like?

nuclearboy:

I actually agree with DeepSight's reasons.

Thank you.

What I think he fails to realise is that many people here, though assured that these people will as easily do the stated as breathe, wonder if this particular example is not a figment of his imagination and concocted out of thin air.

I would have to be jobless in the extreme to begin to concoct such a story. Nonetheless, it matters not.

The point you wish considered is why would such thrive? I believe it thrives because we have turned all things into an academic exercise - Christianity has become a guy practicing in front of his mirror. Grammar, inflections, timing and delivery, of course accompanied by favorable peer review, have become of more import than the spirit behind Mankind.

My personal musings inform that if created in the image of God, man ought be a solution provider - a homeless child needs a place, give it to him! A deprived young woman requires help to complete education, offer it to her FREE. Feed widows, the orphans etc. These are the tasks God does - answering prayers and providing succour and all for free. The best you can give anyway is to say "thank you". But where the basic message behind Christianity details the above, what we have today is people seeing the belief system as a means to their own glorification - either as tithe-payers (expecting "returns" from God) or as tithe-collectors (I ate my cake and still got it). Which is why your MOGS win and why only a very few of us detest the concept.

Could not be better said.

Sadly, DS is part of the problem when you see the legality and not the motive. You see a guy using language constructs to explain away theft, avarice and greed and you say "His words are scriptural". So why do you have issues with such going the hog and demanding money?

You must know that I do not agree with everything that is "scriptural." That which I did point out, which i believe you refer to, is the simple fact that no matter how unsavoury you may wish to regard many of Pastor Agbaje's teachings as being, you will note that he is always able to quote extensively from scripture to support that which he lays out. I do not agree with everything that he lays out: or the interpretations he deploys - but the fact is that one interpretation may stand agaisnt another - and the fact of differing interpretations is not sufficient to demonise any person.

O, and yes, the bible does suggest that men are "gods." And O, yes, Jesus, [b]did [/b]teach that faith may accomplish great things by the power of belief. I set out the scripture to you here -

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-467772.0.html#msg6587830


- And I note that you declined to respond.

The truth is that the real message has been lost. We were created in the image of God. But how many of us are truly "gods" (solution providers and creators). Maybe that is what we ought discuss - what exactly should a Christian be like?

Implicit in the above, you have reverted full circle to agree with Pastor Agbaje's surmise on "gods."

@DS:

You are wrong because you are not getting the point. The Bible is not ambigous when it says we were created in the image of God. We all know that is what it says. The point is "that does not make us Gods" in the same way the God IS. At best, we are transient, a passing fancy, so to say. Being a solution provider means acting in the place of God, being LIKE Him and not becoming Him.

Thats the naunace you seem to miss. I see myself as created to be as a wife to her husband, to Christ. A Helper. A guy is crying out (audibly or not) to God and I am able to take away his pain by offering the assistance he needs. Thats God-like - I have stood in the breach for God by the Grace of God and with His help. The people I despise claim that they, like God, are able to do things. And they take, then give back some, then magnify the small to seem huge. What do you say to a "Christian" (Paula White) who takes "atonement offerings"?

When Jesus spoke of faith achieving great things, it was in the context of trust in God, not trust in self. Your "faith" friends will back down at the very last and accede that yeah yeah yeah, Jesus is superior BUT! And they stop with the "but". That is not Christian, not matter how many titles you put before your name! And neither is it christian to do this for profit (couched in any form or other of deception).

Count on it, DS, me and Jo do not agree on the "Gods" issue. For him, it is for profit. For me, it is a responsibility. Motive makes all the difference.

* laughing after reading the intro-post *

This story got me thrown back on my experience with a highly respected "Man of God" in Port Harcourt sometime September, 2009. His name(s) is/are Bishop J.M (*used initials for reasons best known*) of the KPPM.

I have lived in my previous vicinity for over 15yrs and so i could atleast give an 80% valid attestation about residents i grew up with in my hood. Bishop J.M as he is fondly called started his livelihood as a simple dramatist playing and writing for schools and the state's ministry of culture then as Jack.

His early days i'll say were like every adventurous guy, he did stuffs and all 'em girls BS. until he "met the Lord" in a vigil meeting where he went his usual gaming. I remember folks use to call him the King Pink an acronym for King Point n Kill".  

It wasnt 3months into his new birth that he announced publicly that the Lord had called him to start his ministry and i was like WTH! because i knew this dude was just zealous, poorly schooled and nothing more. I knew his rough/rude and arrogant lifestyle still had dominant trails and traits into his 'new lifestyle'.

Like play. . . like play. . . Jack chose to play the role of the 'savior of the Israelites' hence the addition of 'M' to his name  . Before Tonye could say Jack robinson. . .Pastor J.M had begun emassing membership like flies to a rot. goooshh His members were something else. . .they went everywhere intimidating gullibles to come join the pathetic bandwagon. it was a site not to behold!

Did i forget to say, he had this . . . will i say fear or awe for me. . . till date. and so i visited an elderly friend in that hood where his church shared fence with the old man's little house. And i heard him preaching loud through the outdoor mounted speakers saying. . ."THIS IS THE ENDTIME AND MY MISSION IS TO SILENCE ANYONE WHO WILL STAND IN THE PATH OF GOD'S KINGDOM. . .LIKE I TOLD YOU WE WILL GIVE THEM PEACE FOR PEACE AND WAR FOR WAR *am trying real hard to recall some comments* IF YOU HEAR THEM SAYING EVIL ABOUT ME OR MY CHURCH GO AHEAD AND SLAP THEM".

When i heard this stuffs i was like hmmmmm Pastor J.M, not until my oldie told me he was now a bishop and that just last week he came and literally ordered his 'boys' to slap my oldie. . .at first i didnt believe it, but then this was coming from a man i have never heard him tell me a lie before infact i even saw the site on oldie's face (an old wrinkled face). I became furious and waited for the Bishop J.M's service to close that nite.Dont hate me for what i did. . .becos i know that Bishop was simply F.A.K.E and i pity his followers.

At the sharing of the grace, i walked straight into the premises and stood beside his 2008 Murano, when he came out, he recognised me and was trying to throw pleasantries, gooosh i didnt know how my fist got straight to his collars. . . the last i could remember was a hard rumble on his shirt with a warning. . .dont assault my friends again!

And then i turned around and left, i could hear his ushers and 'bodyguards' saying DADDY who was that man? should we let him go and stuffs like that.

To add:

- Bishop JM has vividly told his members not to come to any service with anything less that 200naira

- They dont put offerings in envelopes, he seats close to the contribution box and inspects the denom. to ensure his subjects follow his words

- He is always on shades. . . wonder if he's prolly high on stuffs. . . like they say "old habits never die easily"

- Donation days are held forthnightly.

gooosh i can go on and on to spit shits about this MOG. . . so i dont doubt anything the OP said.

As christian faithfuls we owe our families and friends the resp. of prayers to keep them away from evil.

Just like the Lord's prayer that says: "Our Father . . . deliver us from evil" - Matt.6:13

nuclearboy:

@DS:

You are wrong because you are not getting the point. The Bible is not ambigous when it says we were created in the image of God. We all know that is what it says. The point is "that does not make us Gods" in the same way the God IS. At best, we are transient, a passing fancy, so to say. Being a solution provider means acting in the place of God, being LIKE Him and not becoming Him.

OF course you know that we are at a consensus-ad-idem regarding this. This is exactly what I had stated in the Joagbaje "became god" thread.

Thats the naunace you seem to miss. I see myself as created to be as a wife to her husband, to Christ. A Helper. A guy is crying out (audibly or not) to God and I am able to take away his pain by offering the assistance he needs. Thats God-like - I have stood in the breach for God by the Grace of God and with His help. The people I despise claim that they, like God, are able to do things. And they take, then give back some, then magnify the small to seem huge. What do you say to a "Christian" (Paula White) who takes "atonement offerings"?

Again, i agree with this.

When Jesus spoke of faith achieving great things, it was in the context of trust in God, not trust in self. Your "faith" friends will back down at the very last and accede that yeah yeah yeah, Jesus is superior BUT! And they stop with the "but". That is not Christian, not matter how many titles you put before your name! And neither is it christian to do this for profit (couched in any form or other of deception).

Having agreed with this yet again, I still do not see that that detracts from the scriptural basis of the WoF teachings which I articulated.

Count on it, DS, me and Jo do not agree on the "Gods" issue. For him, it is for profit. For me, it is a responsibility. Motive makes all the difference.

Why do you insist on using the capital "G" whan you know very well that Jo used the small "g" repeatedly. Thay have different connotations. Do not be disingenious.

Tonye-t:

* laughing after reading the intro-post *

This story got me thrown back on my experience with a highly respected "Man of God" in Port Harcourt sometime September, 2009. His name(s) is/are Bishop J.M (*used initials for reasons best known*) of the KPPM.

I have lived in my previous vicinity for over 15yrs and so i could atleast give an 80% valid attestation about residents i grew up with in my hood. Bishop J.M as he is fondly called started his livelihood as a simple dramatist playing and writing for schools and the state's ministry of culture then as Jack.

His early days i'll say were like every adventurous guy, he did stuffs and all 'em girls BS. until he "met the Lord" in a vigil meeting where he went his usual gaming. I remember folks use to call him the King Pink an acronym for King Point n Kill".

It wasnt 3months into his new birth that he announced publicly that the Lord had called him to start his ministry and i was like WTH! because i knew this dude was just zealous, poorly schooled and nothing more. I knew his rough/rude and arrogant lifestyle still had dominant trails and traits into his 'new lifestyle'.

Like play. . . like play. . . Jack chose to play the role of the 'savior of the Israelites' hence the addition of 'M' to his name . Before Tonye could say Jack robinson. . .Pastor J.M had begun emassing membership like flies to a rot. goooshh His members were something else. . .they went everywhere intimidating gullibles to come join the pathetic bandwagon. it was a site not to behold!

Did i forget to say, he had this . . . will i say fear or awe for me. . . till date. and so i visited an elderly friend in that hood where his church shared fence with the old man's little house. And i heard him preaching loud through the outdoor mounted speakers saying. . ."THIS IS THE ENDTIME AND MY MISSION IS TO SILENCE ANYONE WHO WILL STAND IN THE PATH OF GOD'S KINGDOM. . .LIKE I TOLD YOU WE WILL GIVE THEM PEACE FOR PEACE AND WAR FOR WAR *am trying real hard to recall some comments* IF YOU HEAR THEM SAYING EVIL ABOUT ME OR MY CHURCH GO AHEAD AND SLAP THEM".

When i heard this stuffs i was like hmmmmm Pastor J.M, not until my oldie told me he was now a bishop and that just last week he came and literally ordered his 'boys' to slap my oldie. . .at first i didnt believe it, but then this was coming from a man i have never heard him tell me a lie before infact i even saw the site on oldie's face (an old wrinkled face). I became furious and waited for the Bishop J.M's service to close that nite.Dont hate me for what i did. . .becos i know that Bishop was simply F.A.K.E and i pity his followers.

At the sharing of the grace, i walked straight into the premises and stood beside his 2008 Murano, when he came out, he recognised me and was trying to throw pleasantries, gooosh i didnt know how my fist got straight to his collars. . . the last i could remember was a hard rumble on his shirt with a warning. . .dont assault my friends again!

And then i turned around and left, i could hear his ushers and 'bodyguards' saying DADDY who was that man? should we let him go and stuffs like that.

To add:

- Bishop JM has vividly told his members not to come to any service with anything less that 200naira

- They dont put offerings in envelopes, he seats close to the contribution box and inspects the denom. to ensure his subjects follow his words

- He is always on shades. . . wonder if he's prolly high on stuffs. . . like they say "old habits never die easily"

- Donation days are held forthnightly.

gooosh i can go on and on to spit shits about this MOG. . . so i dont doubt anything the OP said.

As christian faithfuls we owe our families and friends the resp. of prayers to keep them away from evil.

Just like the Lord's prayer that says: "Our Father . . . deliver us from evil" - Matt.6:13

Wow, could it be the same guy? Because the initials are similar and the guy i listened to said he was from Brass LGA in Rivers State. I think he had his first branch there or so. Does this guy you are talking about have a building going up in a Lagos Suburb?

@ Nuclear - for the avoidance of doubt, here is what I posted regarding the scriptural basis of WoF teachings -


Re: Belief & Reality
« #22 on: August 17, 2010, 04:36 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Nuclearboy -

I have had a look at the links you posted. I will like to note a number of things.

I do not believe that there is anything particularly heretical about the WoF teachings. However before proceeding, let me carefully draw a distinction between the personalities behind the movement historically and the teachings of the movement. I say this because it is all too apparent to me that some of these persons, as is common with modern-day commercial pentecostalism, anyway, are simply hawks who may be pursuing their own material and corrupt agenda. This is an entirely different question from the matter of the core teaching of their faith - which teaching is what I beleive is at issue.

I have selected some extracts from the second link you provided and I wish to use this extract to address the elements of the supposedly heretical WoF teachings as set out therein. Here -

Quote
At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

I do not see that this is at variance with Christian teaching.

1. The power of faith is a key teaching of the New Testament. As i stated in the OP, Jesus himself famously taught that if men would have sufficient faith, they could walk on water or lift mountains into the sea. Whichever way you read these statements, either literally or symbolically - the connotation is clear: that by faith all things may be accomplished. Indeed in terms of walking on water this was actually literal as the scripture records that Jesus walked on water and urged Peter to do the same (and he actually did), but faltered, lacking sure conviction. If this is not a wholesale endorsement of the WoF teaching that faith accomplishes all things, I do not know what else is.

2. The extract talks about laws operating in the universe. Do you deny this? Does scripture deny this?

3. The extract talks about the laws being independent of God's will and that God himself is subject to those laws. Really this is just another way of stating that that which God has established is unchangeable in terms of the laws that govern creation: as such God is not to be seen changing his laws - and Bible teaching bears this out when it states that God is unchangeable. Understood right, therefore, this extract simply means that God will not change the laws of creation beacause those laws are perfect and eternal, as they proceed from God. For this reason there is nothing to change, and this is why it is said that God himself is "subject" to those laws. I believe this is mirrorred in the biblical teaching that heaven and earth may pass away but the word of the Lord abideth forever. That word, simply is the law of God, and this is what is said to abide forever.

4. It is thus not a question of turning faith into God: it is simply a question of realizing that there are latent laws within the universe and that the bible does teach that through faith one may key-into those laws and reach a desired reality. Jesus clearly taught this - and you will find that it is a standard piece of truth which is mirrorred in may oriental traditions as well. I thus cannot see that the teaching regarding faith is in anyway heretical or unbiblical.

Quote
From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: It claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born-again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.

1. I do not know that the WoF claim God to be physical (like a good friend of yours does, Lol!) - but without contest the bible does teach in Genesis that God made man in his own image.

2. If God did make man in his own image as the bible teaches, then clearly man must have had attributes of the "Godly" nature, which includes the power of creativity. Thus up till today, man actively creates things.

3. The bible teaches that there was a fall of man.

4. The bible teaches that that fall of man placed man within the will of the satan as conceived in the garden of Eden. The Bible teaches that this alienated man from God.

5. The bible teaches that Jesus' coming was necessary to reconcile man with God.

6. The Bible teaches that by his death, Jesus took on the sin of the world. This is exactly analogous to that which is stated in the extract above namely "taking on the nature of satan" - this simply refers to his act of taking on the sin of the world at Golgotha.

7. The bible teaches that by this very act, Man became reconciled to God - and Jesus urged christians to thereby excercise faith to influence reality.

8. Jesus himself referred to men as "gods" - and the NT teaches that by his sacrifice men would become brothers of christ in the kingdom of God. Does this not sync perfectly with the WoF teaching regarding the powers and status of the saved christian man of faith?

All of these, which are contained in the extract, are taught by the Bible. As I said earlier, Jesus himself propounded the thought that by faith men could control reality. I thus cannot see why there is such a mighty furore over the teachings of the WoF movement as expressed herein. Frankly it seems to me that those teachings are derived from the Bible. What I do understand is that different christian sects have different interpretations of scripture. This is only natural and should not lead you to brand them heretical - they simply have a different view of scripture which they are entitled to have, especially when all the things enumerated above are undoubtedly conveyed by scripture.

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Following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence.

What is so unscripural about the foregoing? Did Jesus not teach same?

As a post script let me just say this: Scripture and christainity aside, thought, belief and faith undoubtedly influence reality. This has been the vocation of mystics for generations. I cannot see what is evil about harnessing the power of thought to transform belief and positively influence one's reality. That is what this thread is about.

What you still are not getting is regretably, what you used as the basis for this thread. So its there and you're missing it. When they talk to you and I, AND GET CALLED OUT, they lower the heat and it becomes small "g". But that remains a mask. Look at what you wrote! Look at Tonye-T's post above! Look at my "Paula White" thingy. Look at the patent glorification of pastor chris anytime they mention him. Consider Copeland saying he too could easily have done what Christ did. There's not a small "g" there.

The best you can give with their interpretation is that we (you and I) are your small "g"s, they are big "G"s and God is the distant somewhat distinct "g". Thats in english. In the Bible's language however, that distinction is not made. "g" = "G"! And there are 2 "G"s according to the Bible - the real and the fakes. The third one doesn't exist.

BTW, the concept of ruling over the world makes us as Lords over it, not over others (we were to subdue the earth and not other men). In effect, we can "lord" it over what we "create", not over ourselves (at least not until man can match God and create man). WoF turns SPECIFIC individuals into "gods" and makes servlings of others. I would say then -  the problem with the WoF teachings is that it takes a truth and turns it into a lie. There may be many shades of gray, DeepSight, but Black is not White

Faith is another large issue which you've imported with your latest post. It cannot be treated in concert with the current without us losing focus. Let's settle the current issue

^^^ The distinctions are beginning to blur. I cannot see any disagreement between what you have written and that which I set out.

"Grammatically", there exists no distinctions! In reality though, my own problem is with the tacit "implied" support given them. Moses was to be a "god" to the people and Aaron his priest. That is how THEY intepret what you support. But this is a different covenant and there are no "Moses'es" (forgive the grammar). Now, if such no longer exists OR following the Bible meaning, EVERYONE IS NOW MOSES, then the title of "Moses" is useless. Do you now get what I mean? Whats the usefulness of the title "god" if everyone is a god?

And that is why there is concerted effort to glorify some ministries above others. So you hear things like "everyone must be under a pastor", He is a "Man of God", etc.

nuclearboy:

What you still are not getting is regretably, what you used as the basis for this thread. So its there and you're missing it. When they talk to you and I, AND GET CALLED OUT, they lower the heat and it becomes small "g". But that remains a mask. Look at what you wrote! Look at Tonye-T's post above! Look at my "Paula White" thingy. Look at the patent glorification of pastor chris anytime they mention him. Consider Copeland saying he too could easily have done what Christ did. There's not a small "g" there.

That isn't unscriptural either.

“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

John 14:12.

^^ "amazing" reasoning there.

Christ was opening a door and saying that because you come through THAT door He opened, you'd be able to do many things even to the point of surpassing Him. Yet here you insist that what He meant was that you could create another door, open that yourself, then do whatever you wanted.

How does it work when you put the cart before the horse? Still, I guess the above was only meant in the spirit of academia rather than reality. As Image123 would say - "the letter killeth".

Kenneth Copeland in his own words:

“The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, “Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.” He said, “Think this way — a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.” And I threw my Bible down… like that. I said, “What?” He said, “A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.” He said, “You are the very image, the very copy of that one.” I said, “Goodness, gracious sakes alive!” And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, “Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?” He said, “Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, ’cause you’re a reborn man too.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3yDODIkf5I

What "reborned" him? Or ought I say "by what process was he "reborned" that would have allowed him do same?

Which is the issue. The above shows they are claiming sameness with Christ and not small "g"s when the chips are down!

Of course it is heretical nonsense. I just posted it for all to see for themselves.

Are you saying that Copeland was saying that he could be the First born of the brethren? Or was he saying that Jesus having been firstborn and he being one of the many brethren can do what Jesus did. I didn't understand Copeland to mean that he could be the first born. I understood that he was saying that as a junior brother he would share in the inheritance of the first born.

I'm no fan of Copeland but on this one issue I don't see what he has said that is so heretical since he is not saying that he is the first born.

[center][flash=500,350]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtlBLtPSy5Y[/flash][/center]

@ Deepsight

Since we've now had 4 pages of good 'discourse' on the general subject matter. . . .I think you can reveal the organisation/speaker's identity so if indeed this is happening, we can prevent other unsuspecting people from falling prey.

In the depths of your heart,even after knowing Deepsight,do you think there was really a church?

Why are so many refusing to believe DeepSight? This is no longer about the occurence but DeepSight's veracity.

@DEEPSIGHT

Deep Sight:

I have had a look at the links you posted. I will like to note a number of things.

I do not believe that there is anything particularly heretical about the WoF teachings. However before proceeding, let me carefully draw a distinction between the personalities behind the movement historically and the teachings of the movement. I say this because it is all too apparent to me that some of these persons, as is common with modern-day commercial pentecostalism, anyway, are simply hawks who may be pursuing their own material and corrupt agenda. This is an entirely different question from the matter of the core teaching of their faith - which teaching is what I beleive is at issue.

I have selected some extracts from the second link you provided and I wish to use this extract to address the elements of the supposedly heretical WoF teachings as set out therein. Here -

I do not see that this is at variance with Christian teaching.

1. The power of faith is a key teaching of the New Testament. As i stated in the OP, Jesus himself famously taught that if men would have sufficient faith, they could walk on water or lift mountains into the sea. Whichever way you read these statements, either literally or symbolically - the connotation is clear: that by faith all things may be accomplished. Indeed in terms of walking on water this was actually literal as the scripture records that Jesus walked on water and urged Peter to do the same (and he actually did), but faltered, lacking sure conviction. If this is not a wholesale endorsement of the WoF teaching that faith accomplishes all things, I do not know what else is.

2. The extract talks about laws operating in the universe. Do you deny this? Does scripture deny this?

3. The extract talks about the laws being independent of God's will and that God himself is subject to those laws. Really this is just another way of stating that that which God has established is unchangeable in terms of the laws that govern creation: as such God is not to be seen changing his laws - and Bible teaching bears this out when it states that God is unchangeable. Understood right, therefore, this extract simply means that God will not change the laws of creation beacause those laws are perfect and eternal, as they proceed from God. For this reason there is nothing to change, and this is why it is said that God himself is "subject" to those laws. I believe this is mirrorred in the biblical teaching that heaven and earth may pass away but the word of the Lord abideth forever. That word, simply is the law of God, and this is what is said to abide forever.

4. It is thus not a question of turning faith into God: it is simply a question of realizing that there are latent laws within the universe and that the bible does teach that through faith one may key-into those laws and reach a desired reality. Jesus clearly taught this - and you will find that it is a standard piece of truth which is mirrorred in may oriental traditions as well. I thus cannot see that the teaching regarding faith is in anyway heretical or unbiblical.

1. I do not know that the WoF claim God to be physical (like a good friend of yours does, Lol!) - but without contest the bible does teach in Genesis that God made man in his own image.

2. If God did make man in his own image as the bible teaches, then clearly man must have had attributes of the "Godly" nature, which includes the power of creativity. Thus up till today, man actively creates things.

3. The bible teaches that there was a fall of man.

4. The bible teaches that that fall of man placed man within the will of the satan as conceived in the garden of Eden. The Bible teaches that this alienated man from God.

5. The bible teaches that Jesus' coming was necessary to reconcile man with God.

6. The Bible teaches that by his death, Jesus took on the sin of the world. This is exactly analogous to that which is stated in the extract above namely "taking on the nature of satan" - this simply refers to his act of taking on the sin of the world at Golgotha.

7. The bible teaches that by this very act, Man became reconciled to God - and Jesus urged christians to thereby excercise faith to influence reality.

8. Jesus himself referred to men as "gods" - and the NT teaches that by his sacrifice men would become brothers of christ in the kingdom of God. Does this not sync perfectly with the WoF teaching regarding the powers and status of the saved christian man of faith?

All of these, which are contained in the extract, are taught by the Bible. As I said earlier, Jesus himself propounded the thought that by faith men could control reality. I thus cannot see why there is such a mighty furore over the teachings of the WoF movement as expressed herein. Frankly it seems to me that those teachings are derived from the Bible. What I do understand is that different christian sects have different interpretations of scripture. This is only natural and should not lead you to brand them heretical - they simply have a different view of scripture which they are entitled to have, especially when all the things enumerated above are undoubtedly conveyed by scripture.


What is so unscripural about the foregoing? Did Jesus not teach same?

As a post script let me just say this: Scripture and christainity aside, thought, belief and faith undoubtedly influence reality. This has been the vocation of mystics for generations. I cannot see what is evil about harnessing the power of thought to transform belief and positively influence one's reality. That is what this thread is about. [/color]

You have this thing meen! .I missed this when it was posted, I wish I saw it. I need to know you better. I wonder why many can't just see truth in scriptures but rather follow religious feelings of self righteousness.

Joagbaje:

@DEEPSIGHT
You have this thing meen! .I missed this when it was posted, I wish I saw it.  I need to know you  better. I wonder why many can't just see truth in scriptures but rather follow religious feelings of self righteousness.

LOLage. I have been chilling for the post above, sipping on Iced Tea (in my mind at least  )