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Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 9:12am On Nov 02, 2019
Consider the following groups of animals

1. Protozoans – single-celled organisms such as amoebas and paramecia.

2. Annelids – earthworms, leeches.

3. Echinoderms – starfish, sea urchins, sea cucumbers.

4. Mollusks – snails, octopi, squid, snails

5. Arthropods – insects, spiders, crustaceans such as shrimp, crabs, lobsters.

6. Fishes – tilapia, sharks

7. Amphibians – frogs, toads

8. Reptiles – lizards, crocodiles

9. Birds – parrots, eagles

10. Mammals – goats, cows
All the ten different groups of animals listed above have DIFFERENT BODY PLANS.

A body plan simply describes how different parts (or systems) of an organism are assembled to form the entire SHAPE and SIZE of the organism.

A body of an organism usually consists of many vital systems which are structurally and functionally linked together[/b]such that it is impossible for some of these vital systems to be absent without affecting the viability of the organism.


According to the theory of evolution, all the different life forms on earth descended from a [b]single common ancestor through slight modifications brought about by mutations and natural selection acting together over a long period of time .


Therefore, if this theory of gradual evolution through common descent is true, then one body plan of an animal has to be evolved gradually from another body plan.

But the gradual evolution of one body plan into another body plan would face two serious problems:

1. Problem of mutations in the developmental genes which are universally accepted to be extremely disadvantageous.


2. Problem of constructing a series of reasonable intermediate organisms.


Now let me explain these two problems one after the other.

THE FIRST PROBLEM:

Changing from one body plan to another is a MORPHOLOGICAL change which can only be effected by mutations in the developmental gene regulatory networks (that function as integrated circuits during development of embryo from a fertilized egg)

All examples of evolution (like virus antibiotic resistance and peppered moth evolution) usually cited by evolutionists are mere BIOCHEMICAL changes which are brought about by mutations in the structural genes. But structural genes tend to have little effect on the development of a body plan. Simply changing a protein here and there by mutations in the structural genes cannot change the entire body plan.


For a body plan to morphologically change from old one to a new one, mutations in the developmental genes are not only require but necessary. But as agreed by all scientists, mutations in the developmental genes are extremely disadvantageous because the developing embryo is very sensitive to early developmental mutations
.
Wallace Arthur, a staunch evolutionist, wrote:

"Those genes that control early developmental processes are involved in the establishment of the basic body plan. Mutations in these genes will usually be extremely disadvantageous, and it is conceivable that they are always so."


In fact, Wikipedia submits as follows;

" The development of a fertilized egg into an adult is a complex and delicate process of interaction between genes and the environment that must be carried out precisely and if there is any alteration in the usual process caused by the absence of a necessary gene or the presence of a different one, it can arrest the normal development.... "

All available observational evidence establishes that developmental Gene regulatory networks ( DGRNs) do not tolerate random perturbations to their basic control logic. Indeed, mutagenesis experiments conducted on the genes present in dGRNs have repeatedly shown that even modest mutation-induced changes to these genes either produce no change in the developmental trajectory of animals (due to pre-programmed buffering or redundancy) or they produce catastrophic (most often, lethal) effects within developing animals. Disrupt the central control nodes, and the developing animal does not shift to a different, viable, stably heritable body plan. Rather, the system crashes, and the developing animal usually dies. As developmental biologist Eric Davidson has noted:

There is always an observable consequence if a dGRN subcircuit is interrupted. Since these consequences are always catastrophically bad, flexibility is minimal, and since the subcircuits are all interconnected, the whole network partakes of the quality that there is only one way for things to work. And indeed the embryos of each species develop in only one way."


But it is this very mutations in the developmental gene regulatory networks that is required for one body plan to evolve into another body plan. This simply shows that evolution of one body plan into another body plan by developmental gene mutations is impossible.


However, evolutionists for decades have been studying mutations in the structural genes which can only deal with how organisms survive as they are (microevolution), and it doesn’t tell us how they got to be the way they are (macroevolution).


THE SECOND PROBLEM:
Another serious problem facing the gradual evolution of old body plan into a new body plan is how the series of reasonable intermediate organisms can be constructed throughout

Along the way, functional organisms must pass through the stage of intermediate forms. But even the functionality of these intermediate organisms transforming from one body plan into another has long puzzled even the most dedicated evolutionists.

For example, S. J. Gould, the late Harvard paleontologist, asked;

"But how can a series of reasonable intermediates be constructed (during the transformation of the old body plan into a new body plan) ?"

In other words, a stage must be reached ( may be half-way) when the significant parts of the old body plan would have been disappeared while the new body plan would be yet to complete. But, at this very stage, the viability of such an intermediate organism would be zero because there is no way for the remnants of the old body plan to harmonize perfectly with the rudiments of the new body plan.


When one vital system (like circulatory system) in the old body plan has to be enlarged and modified for effective functioning and perfect incorporation into the new body plan, many other vital systems ( like respiratory system, nervous system, etc) in the old body plan have to be simultaneously enlarged and modified in the required proportion for perfect harmony to take place


As you can see, all these intelligent and simultaneous adjustments must take place in a single generation if the new body plan must survive to exist.


But if "gradual evolution through slight modifications over many generations that has no purpose and direction" is the rule of the game, then how is it going to be possible to achieve all these intelligent and simultaneous adjustments in a single generation ?


If properly understood, these two problems are enough as theoretical evidence to prove that gradual evolution of new body plan from old body plan is impossible.


The practical evidence that confirmed this theoretical evidence is the existence of CAMBRIAN EXPLOSION, a term used to describe the relatively short period in the fossil records when almost major animal phyla with different body plans suddenly appeared without any traces of preceding intermediate organisms.


Berkeley University’s Professor Philip Johnson describes the open inconsistency between the theory of gradual evolution and the fact of Cambrian explosion by saying,

"'Darwinist theory assumes that a species develops within “a triangle of increasingly expanding diversification.” According to this, life began from the first living organism or primitive animal species, diversified increasingly and gave rise to higher categories of biological classification. But animals fossils show us that this triangle actually stands upside-down: Phyla existed all together from the first moment, their numbers declining subsequently.'”


As Philip Johnson has said, rather than phyla developing gradually, all phyla appeared at once and the same time, with some of them later becoming extinct. And all these very different life forms appearing suddenly means they were created rather than evolved.

2 Likes

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by rottennaija(m): 9:14am On Nov 02, 2019
Truthdefender66:

Consider the following groups of animals

1. Protozoans – single-celled organisms such as amoebas and paramecia.

2. Annelids – earthworms, leeches.

3. Echinoderms – starfish, sea urchins, sea cucumbers.

4. Mollusks – snails, octopi, squid, snails

5. Arthropods – insects, spiders, crustaceans such as shrimp, crabs, lobsters.

6. Fishes – tilapia, sharks

7. Amphibians – frogs, toads

8. Reptiles – lizards, crocodiles

9. Birds – parrots, eagles

10. Mammals – goats, cows
All the ten different groups of animals listed above have DIFFERENT BODY PLANS.

A body plan simply describes how different parts (or systems) of an organism are assembled to form the entire SHAPE and SIZE of the organism.

A body of an organism usually consists of many vital systems which are structurally and functionally linked together[/b]such that it is impossible for some of these vital systems to be absent without affecting the viability of the organism.


According to the theory of evolution, all the different life forms on earth descended from a [b]single common ancestor through slight modifications brought about by mutations and natural selection acting together over a long period of time .


Therefore, if this theory of gradual evolution through common descent is true, then one body plan of an animal has to be evolved gradually from another body plan.

But the gradual evolution of one body plan into another body plan would face two serious problems:

1. Problem of mutations in the developmental genes which are universally accepted to be extremely disadvantageous.


2. Problem of constructing a series of reasonable intermediate organisms.


Now let me explain these two problems one after the other.

THE FIRST PROBLEM:

Changing from one body plan to another is a MORPHOLOGICAL change which can only be effected by mutations in the developmental genes (i:e the genes that control the development of embryo from a single fertilized egg).

All examples of evolution (like virus antibiotic resistance and peppered moth evolution) usually cited by evolutionists are mere BIOCHEMICAL changes which are brought about by mutations in the structural genes. But structural genes tend to have little effect on the development of a body plan. Simply changing a protein here and there by mutations in the structural genes cannot change the entire body plan.


For a body plan to morphologically change from old one to a new one, mutations in the developmental genes are not only require but necessary. But as agreed by all scientists, mutations in the developmental genes are extremely disadvantageous because the developing embryo is very sensitive to early developmental mutations
.
Wallace Arthur, a staunch evolutionist, wrote:

"Those genes that control early developmental processes are involved in the establishment of the basic body plan. Mutations in these genes will usually be extremely disadvantageous, and it is conceivable that they are always so."


In fact, Wikipedia submits as follows;

" The development of a fertilized egg into an adult is a complex and delicate process of interaction between genes and the environment that must be carried out precisely and if there is any alteration in the usual process caused by the absence of a necessary gene or the presence of a different one, it can arrest the normal development.... "

But it is this very mutations in the developmental genes that is required for one body plan to evolve into another body plan. This simply shows that evolution of one body plan into another body plan by developmental gene mutations is impossible.


However, evolutionists for decades have been studying mutations in the structural genes which can only deal with how organisms survive as they are (microevolution), and it doesn’t tell us how they got to be the way they are (macroevolution).


THE SECOND PROBLEM:
Another serious problem facing the gradual evolution of old body plan into a new body plan is how the series of reasonable intermediate organisms can be constructed throughout

Along the way, functional organisms must pass through the stage of intermediate forms. But even the functionality of these intermediate organisms transforming from one body plan into another has long puzzled even the most dedicated evolutionists.

For example, S. J. Gould, the late Harvard paleontologist, asked;

"But how can a series of reasonable intermediates be constructed (during the transformation of the old body plan into a new body plan) ?"

In other words, a stage must be reached ( may be half-way) when the significant parts of the old body plan would have been disappeared while the new body plan would be yet to complete. But, at this very stage, the viability of such an intermediate organism would be zero because there is no way for the remnants of the old body plan to harmonize perfectly with the rudiments of the new body plan.


When one vital system (like circulatory system) in the old body plan has to be enlarged and modified for effective functioning and perfect incorporation into the new body plan, many other vital systems ( like respiratory system, nervous system, etc) in the old body plan have to be simultaneously enlarged and modified in the required proportion for perfect harmony to take place


As you can see, all these intelligent and simultaneous adjustments must take place in a single generation if the new body plan must survive to exist.


But if "gradual evolution through slight modifications over many generations that has no purpose and direction" is the rule of the game, then how is it going to be possible to achieve all these intelligent and simultaneous adjustments in a single generation ?


If properly understood, these two problems are enough as theoretical evidence to prove that gradual evolution of new body plan from old body plan is impossible.


The practical evidence that confirmed this theoretical evidence is the existence of CAMBRIAN EXPLOSION, a term used to describe the relatively short period in the fossil records when almost major animal phyla with different body plans suddenly appeared without any traces of preceding intermediate organisms.


Berkeley University’s Professor Philip Johnson describes the open inconsistency between the theory of gradual evolution and the fact of Cambrian explosion by saying,

"'Darwinist theory assumes that a species develops within “a triangle of increasingly expanding diversification.” According to this, life began from the first living organism or primitive animal species, diversified increasingly and gave rise to higher categories of biological classification. But animals fossils show us that this triangle actually stands upside-down: Phyla existed all together from the first moment, their numbers declining subsequently.'”


As Philip Johnson has said, rather than phyla developing gradually, all phyla appeared at once and the same time, with some of them later becoming extinct. And all these very different life forms appearing suddenly means they were created rather than evolved.


And why has the gods disappeared over the last 2 thousand years? How do you explain the billions of galaxies existing and their uses? Are they aliens or are we alone? Why is it that as humans begin to understand the universe and how things works more and more, stories of gods and their intervention disappeared more and more so that we are now told to have faith and believe in the stories told which is basically hearsay.

Surely op, an all powerful god would understand that showing his himself is most important now than ever especially considering the fact that the circumstances of ones birth determine his religion and the sort of god he is attached to which he has no chance in it or its believes.

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Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by angelEmade: 9:19am On Nov 02, 2019
OP...over a billion years, any fucking thing can happen.
one thing physics have taught us is that time has no respect for rules and the norm. the galaxies and the universe and einstein's relativity theory confirms it all.

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Blakjewelry(m): 10:24am On Nov 02, 2019
let address the point you raised one by one.

the developmental change you talked about is not a forced change as in it doesnt happened instantaneously rather the information already been acquired from the parent adult cell. like for instant, if an organism must move from aquatic environment to land, it can happen over a million year with the organisms coming to the surface and survive for few seconds, then over time the seconds turn to minutes and minutes to hour and to days. now these each organism can built their own tolerant level to these new harsh environment and some will die off in the process and these new abilities are being transferred to their offspring. now the complex process you talked about the during this developmental state is only responding to information it is been feed by the genetic material rather than an external stimuli which will be fatal

Note i believe everyday all adult organisms undergo some form genetical experiment hence some why we get some of ailment some even die in the process but those that survives pass those minute change yo our offspring.

also it doesnt necessarily means all information pass to the organism survive in humans it is know the system can cause a self abort even before the woman knows she is pregnant as in a woman can staying without getting pregnant not because she doesn't get pregnant but the system shut it down even before she knows she is, all these because of genetics, that is not always the case hence you see deformed birth

1 Like

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by budaatum: 2:42pm On Nov 02, 2019
Here's some education on the chicken.

https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/chickens/2013/05/01/evolutionary-history-of-the-chicken-pigeon-and-other-birds/

2 Likes

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 4:17am On Nov 03, 2019
rottennaija:



And why has the gods disappeared over the last 2 thousand years? How do you explain the billions of galaxies existing and their uses? Are they aliens or are we alone? Why is it that as humans begin to understand the universe and how things works more and more, stories of gods and their intervention disappeared more and more so that we are now told to have faith and believe in the stories told which is basically hearsay.

Surely op, an all powerful god would understand that showing his himself is most important now than ever especially considering the fact that the circumstances of ones birth determine his religion and the sort of god he is attached to which he has no chance in it or its believes.

Are you now saying the two serious problems explained up there are not real simply because we are yet to physically observe the existence of God ?

2 Likes

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 4:19am On Nov 03, 2019
budaatum:
Here's some education on the chicken.

https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/chickens/2013/05/01/evolutionary-history-of-the-chicken-pigeon-and-other-birds/

What exactly do you want us to infer from this ?
That gradual evolution of a new body plan from the old body plan is possible ?
That there is no any contradiction between the theory of gradual evolution and the fact of Cambrian explosion ?
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 4:21am On Nov 03, 2019
Blakjewelry:
let address the point you raised one by one.

the developmental change you talked about is not a forced change as in it doesnt happened instantaneously rather the information already been acquired from the parent adult cell. like for instant, if an organism must move from aquatic environment to land, it can happen over a million year with the organisms coming to the surface and survive for few seconds, then over time the seconds turn to minutes and minutes to hour and to days. now these each organism can built their own tolerant level to these new harsh environment and some will die off in the process and these new abilities are being transferred to their offspring. now the complex process you talked about the during this developmental state is only responding to information it is been feed by the genetic material rather than an external stimuli which will be fatal

Note i believe everyday all adult organisms undergo some form genetical experiment hence some why we get some of ailment some even die in the process but those that survives pass those minute change yo our offspring.

also it doesnt necessarily means all information pass to the organism survive in humans it is know the system can cause a self abort even before the woman knows she is pregnant as in a woman can staying without getting pregnant not because she doesn't get pregnant but the system shut it down even before she knows she is, all these because of genetics, that is not always the case hence you see deformed birth

But acquired traits cannot be transferred from parents to their offspring. Besides, how does this explanation of yours prove that evolution of a new body plan from old body plan is possible ?
How does this explanation resolve the contradiction between the theory of gradual evolution and the fact of Cambrian explosion ?
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 4:25am On Nov 03, 2019
angelEmade:
OP...over a billion years, any fucking thing can happen.
one thing physics have taught us is that time has no respect for rules and the norm. the galaxies and the universe and einstein's relativity theory confirms it all.

My friend you're perfectly correct. Given enough time, ordinary stone can break the rule and norm of gravity and start flying in the air all by itself.
Even given enough time, a tornado can assemble the pieces of car engine parts left in a backyard and leave the engine in a state of perfect working condition.

2 Likes

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by LordReed(m): 6:55am On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:

Consider the following groups of animals

1. Protozoans – single-celled organisms such as amoebas and paramecia.

2. Annelids – earthworms, leeches.

3. Echinoderms – starfish, sea urchins, sea cucumbers.

4. Mollusks – snails, octopi, squid, snails

5. Arthropods – insects, spiders, crustaceans such as shrimp, crabs, lobsters.

6. Fishes – tilapia, sharks

7. Amphibians – frogs, toads

8. Reptiles – lizards, crocodiles

9. Birds – parrots, eagles

10. Mammals – goats, cows
All the ten different groups of animals listed above have DIFFERENT BODY PLANS.

A body plan simply describes how different parts (or systems) of an organism are assembled to form the entire SHAPE and SIZE of the organism.

A body of an organism usually consists of many vital systems which are structurally and functionally linked together such that it is impossible for some of these vital systems to be absent without affecting the viability of the organism.



So explain why the the ensatina salamander species have no lungs.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by budaatum: 7:35am On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:


What exactly do you want us to infer from this ?
That gradual evolution of a new body plan from the old body plan is possible ?
That there is no any contradiction between the theory of gradual evolution and the fact of Cambrian explosion ?
I believe there's a brain in your head.
You'll infer whatever it implies.

1 Like

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by rottennaija(m): 11:49am On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:


Are you now saying the two serious problems explained up there are not real simply because we are yet to physically observe the existence of God ?

it's only recently, the last 100 years that humans are really beginning to understand the complexity of life and such findings are documented for future generations. No doubt about it, its just barely scratching the surface, but imagine what would be accomplished in the next 1000 years with advanced tools and science/engineering equipments.

However, it must be noted all all we have in the bible and korah are hearsay. One person said he witness an event and so the story transfers from one person to another till date. Hearsay are pron to additions and subtractions (as would be evident in the different Bible translations that are basically a reflection of the bias and beliefs of the owner or he who pays for the translation to be done).

As humans continue to make advances, as we understanding the world around us more and more, the different gods begins to disappear for those events or phenomenon which were attributed to gods in the past are better explained by our scientific knowledge.

As for the 2 problems you have mentioned, I wasn't referring to them neither do I infer they are not real. First of all, I know not enough to discourse on that particular subject and neither do they have much to do with gods.

As you may be aware, the bible nor the korah do have a lot of contradictions with realities thereby making proponent of the creation story to be its prime apologist, looking for defence and explanations that are clearly contradictory of the book they want to defend.

Certainly op, they are so many other problems. For example, How do you explain the billions of galaxies existing and their uses? Are they aliens or are we alone? Also, an all powerful god would understand that proving his existence today is most important now than ever especially considering the fact that the circumstances of ones birth determine his religion and the sort of god he is attached to which he has no chance in it or its believes

1 Like

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 3:47pm On Nov 03, 2019
LordReed:


So explain why the the ensatina salamander species have no lungs.

Ensatina salamander species have no lungs because lungs is not one of the vital systems that make up their own body plan

Their body was planned in such a way that they breathe by cutaneous respiration rather than pulmonary respiration. That is to say, instead of breathing through their lungs, they breathe through their moist skin and through the tissues lining their mouth.

What makes this cutaneous respiration to be possible is the BROAD NETWORK OF CUTANEOUS CAPILLARIES that facilitates gas exchange between their MOIST skin and their environment.

Without "the broad network of cutaneous capillaries" situated very close to their skin, this type of respiration would be impossible.
Therefore, it is this very "broad network of cutaneous capillaries" situated very close to their moist skin that compensated for the absence of lungs in their body plan.

So here are two different body plans ; one body plan uses "lungs" as the respiratory organ while another body plan uses "broad network of cutaneous capillaries" situated very close to the skin as the respiratory organ.

But one of the major problem I am adressing in this post is how to SWITCH from one body plan to another body plan by gradual darwinian evolution that has no purpose and direction ?
For example, if one body plan ( without lungs) was to evolve into another body plan (with lungs), many intelligent and simultaneous adjustments must be effected in a single generation;

1. Lungs must came to exist
2. Pulmonary artery that will carry the oxygenated blood from the new lungs to the heart must came to exist.
3. Pulmonary vein that will carry the deoxygented blood from the heart back to the new lungs must came to exist
4. The heart itself has to be modified to resume its new function of pumping the oxygenated blood from the lungs.
5. The nervous system that will control the new lungs and the modified heart must be adjusted to also perform its new function.
6. Even the volume of the thoracic cavity, to provide a space for the new lungs, has to be changed.

These are the most obvious adjustments ( talkless of the hidden ones) that must be effected in a single generation if the new body plan ( i:e one with lungs) must survive to exist.
Now tell us, how "all these intelligent and simultaneous adjustments that must be effected in a single generation" can be accomplished by unintelligent gradual evolution over millions of years ?

Honestly, what we observed in CAMBRIAN EXPLOSION (i:e the biology's big bang) is enough to prove that unintelligent gradual evolution of new body plan from the old body plan through slight modifications over millions of years is far away from the truth.

2 Likes

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 3:49pm On Nov 03, 2019
rottennaija:


it's only recently, the last 100 years that humans are really beginning to understand the complexity of life and such findings are documented for future generations. No doubt about it, its just barely scratching the surface, but imagine what would be accomplished in the next 1000 years with advanced tools and science/engineering equipments.

However, it must be noted all all we have in the bible and korah are hearsay. One person said he witness an event and so the story transfers from one person to another till date. Hearsay are pron to additions and subtractions (as would be evident in the different Bible translations that are basically a reflection of the bias and beliefs of the owner or he who pays for the translation to be done).

As humans continue to make advances, as we understanding the world around us more and more, the different gods begins to disappear for those events or phenomenon which were attributed to gods in the past are better explained by our scientific knowledge.

As for the 2 problems you have mentioned, I wasn't referring to them neither do I infer they are not real. First of all, I know not enough to discourse on that particular subject and neither do they have much to do with gods.

As you may be aware, the bible nor the korah do have a lot of contradictions with realities thereby making proponent of the creation story to be its prime apologist, looking for defence and explanations that are clearly contradictory of the book they want to defend.

Certainly op, they are so many other problems. For example, How do you explain the billions of galaxies existing and their uses? Are they aliens or are we alone? Also, an all powerful god would understand that proving his existence today is most important now than ever especially considering the fact that the circumstances of ones birth determine his religion and the sort of god he is attached to which he has no chance in it or its believes

There is one important thing you have left behind.
What really make us distinct from all other animals ? What really create our ability to acquire all those scientific knowledge you made mention of ?
Without going far, the obvious answer lies in the fact that we have developed brain.
But what really make up our brain ?
Without any iota of doubt it is made up of matter ARRANGED IN A PARTICULAR WAY.
It is this "VERY ARRANGEMENT" that make the brain different from all other organs that exist in the biological world.
Now this is my question; Do you think a "MERE ARRANGEMENT OF UNCONCIOUS MATTER" in a particular way is enough to account for all the MIRACULOUS FUNCTIONS (like seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, thinking, learning, feelings, voluntary moving etc) performed by the brain ?
Is it possible for such a brain that designed an aeroplane and the most intelligent computer to arise by ACCIDENT without being designed by someone ?
Can you give an example of how an ACCIDENT can give rise to INTELLIGENCE from our day to day experience in the physical world ?
Of course, if the human brain did not have beginning, then there is no need for us to be asking all these question.
But it does have the beginning. Therefore, it must have a beginner that brought it into existence.
So our advance in our scientific knowledge can never erase our intuitive knowledge that God actually exist.

2 Likes

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by budaatum: 4:49pm On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:


Their body was planned in such a way
Your reasoning is like saying the plan of the cart is to get somewhere so the horse is created in front of it, which just shows a lack of understanding or utter disrespect for others.

The truth is that you know of no plan but must justify what you believe, and so you disregard the evidence before you and and twist what you think you see to suit what you believe, which is a clear indication of not using your eyes nor evolving your senses at all.

Those whom mud has been spat on and rubbed in their eyes accept first the evidence before them and then seek to understand, instead of placing the cart before the horse to justify what they believe.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by rottennaija(m): 5:00pm On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:


There is one important thing you have left behind.
What really make us distinct from all other animals ? What really create our ability to acquire all those scientific knowledge you made mention of ?
Without going far, the obvious answer lies in the fact that we have developed brain.
But what really make up our brain ?
Without any iota of doubt it is made up of matter ARRANGED IN A PARTICULAR WAY.
It is this "VERY ARRANGEMENT" that make the brain different from all other organs that exist in the biological world.
Now this is my question; Do you think a "MERE ARRANGEMENT OF UNCONCIOUS MATTER" in a particular way is enough to account for all the MIRACULOUS FUNCTIONS (like seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, thinking, learning, feelings, voluntary moving etc) performed by the brain ?
Is it possible for such a brain that designed an aeroplane and the most intelligent computer to arise by ACCIDENT without being designed by someone ?
Can you give an example of how an ACCIDENT can give rise to INTELLIGENCE from our day to day experience in the physical world ?
Of course, if the human brain did not have beginning, then there is no need for us to be asking all these question.
But it does have the beginning. Therefore, it must have a beginner that brought it into existence.
So our advance in our scientific knowledge can never erase our intuitive knowledge that God actually exist.

What makes you believe we are the most intelligent creature in the whole universe? Because we can build roads? Aeroplane? etc? What makes you think those we call animals don't have a higher intellect than us?.

And then most importantly, why has your gods and tales of them disappeared as humans began to have a better understanding of the world?

2 Likes 1 Share

Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by rottennaija(m): 5:06pm On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:


There is one important thing you have left behind.
What really make us distinct from all other animals ? What really create our ability to acquire all those scientific knowledge you made mention of ?
Without going far, the obvious answer lies in the fact that we have developed brain.
But what really make up our brain ?
Without any iota of doubt it is made up of matter ARRANGED IN A PARTICULAR WAY.
It is this "VERY ARRANGEMENT" that make the brain different from all other organs that exist in the biological world.
Now this is my question; Do you think a "MERE ARRANGEMENT OF UNCONCIOUS MATTER" in a particular way is enough to account for all the MIRACULOUS FUNCTIONS (like seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, thinking, learning, feelings, voluntary moving etc) performed by the brain ?
Is it possible for such a brain that designed an aeroplane and the most intelligent computer to arise by ACCIDENT without being designed by someone ?
Can you give an example of how an ACCIDENT can give rise to INTELLIGENCE from our day to day experience in the physical world ?
Of course, if the human brain did not have beginning, then there is no need for us to be asking all these question.
But it does have the beginning. Therefore, it must have a beginner that brought it into existence.
So our advance in our scientific knowledge can never erase our intuitive knowledge that God actually exist.

Do you know of the butterfly effect?
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by LordReed(m): 5:29pm On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:


Ensatina salamander species have no lungs because lungs is not one of the vital systems that make up their own body plan

Their body was planned in such a way that they breathe by cutaneous respiration rather than pulmonary respiration. That is to say, instead of breathing through their lungs, they breathe through their moist skin and through the tissues lining their mouth.

What makes this cutaneous respiration to be possible is the BROAD NETWORK OF CUTANEOUS CAPILLARIES that facilitates gas exchange between their MOIST skin and their environment.

Without "the broad network of cutaneous capillaries" situated very close to their skin, this type of respiration would be impossible.
Therefore, it is this very "broad network of cutaneous capillaries" situated very close to their moist skin that compensated for the absence of lungs in their body plan.

So here are two different body plans ; one body plan uses "lungs" as the respiratory organ while another body plan uses "broad network of cutaneous capillaries" situated very close to the skin as the respiratory organ.

But one of the major problem I am adressing in this post is how to SWITCH from one body plan to another body plan by gradual darwinian evolution that has no purpose and direction ?
For example, if one body plan ( without lungs) was to evolve into another body plan (with lungs), many intelligent and simultaneous adjustments must be effected in a single generation;

1. Lungs must came to exist
2. Pulmonary artery that will carry the oxygenated blood from the new lungs to the heart must came to exist.
3. Pulmonary vein that will carry the deoxygented blood from the heart back to the new lungs must came to exist
4. The heart itself has to be modified to resume its new function of pumping the oxygenated blood from the lungs.
5. The nervous system that will control the new lungs and the modified heart must be adjusted to also perform its new function.
6. Even the volume of the thoracic cavity, to provide a space for the new lungs, has to be changed.

These are the most obvious adjustments ( talkless of the hidden ones) that must be effected in a single generation if the new body plan ( i:e one with lungs) must survive to exist.
Now tell us, how "all these intelligent and simultaneous adjustments that must be effected in a single generation" can be accomplished by unintelligent gradual evolution over millions of years ?

Honestly, what we observed in CAMBRIAN EXPLOSION (i:e the biology's big bang) is enough to prove that unintelligent gradual evolution of new body plan from the old body plan through slight modifications over millions of years is far away from the truth.

First off, the place I bolded out in your OP stated "that it is impossible for some of these vital systems to be absent without affecting the viability of the organism." If the lungs are missing from ensatina does that not already falsify this statement?

Secondly, is a lungless body plan restricted to ensatina or should we be able to find other species which are not salamanders that are lungless?

You keep making the mistake most who come here to talk about evolution make and that is expecting to see a magic show. No one who understands evolution thinks "all these intelligent and simultaneous adjustments that must be effected in a single generation" because they understand that the changes are accumulated over successive generations. Go look at the ensatina ring species and explain why 2 ensatina populations in the same geographical area are unable to breed.

What did we observe from the Cambrian explosion that disproved evolution?

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Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Blakjewelry(m): 7:42pm On Nov 03, 2019
Truthdefender66:


But acquired traits cannot be transferred from parents to their offspring. Besides, how does this explanation of yours prove that evolution of a new body plan from old body plan is possible ?
How does this explanation resolve the contradiction between the theory of gradual evolution and the fact of Cambrian explosion ?
if i get you right, by trait you are referring to behavioral one. well i am referring to and organism behavior, what i am talking about is impact of the environment on the organism and how it react to these changes. most time the reactions are carried out in the background and without the organism trying to do that. i only use that example as a case study now let give you another example.

lets assume the earth gravity, pressure temperature and radiation increase 5 fold in the cause of a million years, every organism within these this period will undergo alot of changes for them to survive but not without million of such species going into extinction.

as for the second question you raised, i wont call it new body part from old ones rather i will call it modification of body part

also the Cambrian explosion does not in anyway dismiss the evolution theory after all the cambrian came before Darwin and non of the organisms found on that layer is in existence today. they only bear traits and nothing they have all evolved too.

the only part needing reconciling is the absence of data on what happened before that period most likely because of earth surface at that time

so the Cambrian story did not in anyway put a hole in the evolution theory rather its evolution of rather complex organism while we seek for evolution of what happened before then i.e the evolution of simple orgasm
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 2:43am On Nov 04, 2019
@ Blakjewelry, LordReed, rottennaija, budaatum

Let me give you my final evidence for the existence of God. It is now left for you to either accept it or reject it. See the evidence below

If an engineer want to construct and assemble an engine of a car by following a set of information given in a particular manual, then he has to carry out the following processes listed below;

1. He has to read the information.

2. He has to interpret what he has read

3. He has to implement his interpretation by performing some active and specific movements towards the construction and assembling of the car engine.

Now consider the following premises of argument

Premise 1; From our experience as intelligent human being, we know that the process of reading an information, interpreting it and then implementing the interpretation to construct and assemble the different parts of any complex system (like an engine of a car) is a work of intelligence.

Premise 2; During embryonic development, the information on the DNA template is usually read, interpreted and implemented to construct and assemble different parts of human body from a very tiny ball of cell called zygote

Premise 3; Therefore, the transformation of a very tiny zygote into a beautiful new born baby all by itself during embryonic development is definitely the work of intelligence (follow from premise 1 and premise 2).

Premise 4; But intelligence cannot be the owner of itself; it must be owned by an intelligent being

Premise 5; Hence, there is intelligent being behind the transformation of a very tiny ball of cell called zygote into a beautiful new born baby during embryonic development. It is this very intelligent being that many people described as God

Please for the sake of sincerity, which of the five premises stated above is wrong and explain the reason why it is wrong.

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Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by budaatum: 2:55am On Nov 04, 2019
Truthdefender66:


@ Blakjewelry, LordReed, rottennaija, budaatum

Let me give you my final evidence for the existence of God. It is now left for you to either accept it or reject it. See the evidence below.
Where, please, did you get the idea that you had to give your "final evidence of the existence of God" to buda? Did I tell you I don't have "final evidence of the existence of God" of my own?
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Truthdefender66: 3:10am On Nov 04, 2019
budaatum:

Where, please, did you get the idea that you had to give your "final evidence of the existence of God" to buda? Did I tell you I don't have "final evidence of the existence of God" of my own?

Pls what do you actually believe ?
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by budaatum: 3:21am On Nov 04, 2019
Truthdefender66:


Pls what do you actually believe ?
Lol.

Read it here in Shepherd00 thread Questions For Budaatum: How Can You Follow Jesus Without Believing In Him?

Any questions? Hola.
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by budaatum: 3:36am On Nov 04, 2019
budaatum:
What I understand op to be saying (not that I read it all, and not that he explicitly said or even means this), is that DNA is the Word of God through which God created humans. [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A7&version=NIV]Genesis 2:7[/url]; [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A1-4&version=KJV]John 1:1-4[/url].

And Jesus is telling you to learn the Word of God when he says "Love the Lord thy God and Love the creations of God who live by you and your enemies even moreso". [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A30-31&version=KJV]Mark 12:30-31[/url]; [url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A44&version=KJV]Matthew 5:44[/url] You after all cannot love that which you do not have knowledge of.

I would not offer any of this as evidence for God though, because to start with, evidence is image making and God don't like images. Second, God is a Spirit that no one has seen so why should the blind see God? Third, even Jesus never bothered with evidence of God so why should ordinary humans feel the need to go drag God from up in the heavens and present God to unworthy humans who say God does not exist? If they were worthy of seeing God, surely, God would come to them Godself and say to them, "Here I Am"! And fourth, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth", and not in a science lab!

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Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by kkins25(m): 11:15am On Nov 04, 2019
Truthdefender66:
@ Blakjewelry, LordReed, rottennaija, budaatum

Now consider the following premises of argument

Premise 1; From our experience as intelligent human being, we know that the process of reading an information, interpreting it and then implementing the interpretation to construct and assemble the different parts of any complex system (like an engine of a car) is a work of intelligence.
this ridiculously faulty premise assumes priori that an engineer is involved. why do you use humane standards to prove that you have "proof" for the existence of God?

Premise 2; During embryonic development, the information on the DNA template is usually read, interpreted and implemented to construct and assemble different parts of human body from a very tiny ball of cell called zygote
im pretty sure those children born with deformed limbs or some form of genetic disease is also the handy work of your "intelligent" designer. iesus akbhar!

Premise 3; Therefore, the transformation of a very tiny zygote into a beautiful new born baby all by itself during embryonic development is definitely the work of intelligence (follow from premise 1 and premise 2).
a zygote does not develop all on its own for crying out loud! if it could, it wouldn't need to be housed in the womb would it?smh!

Premise 4; But intelligence cannot be the owner of itself; it must be owned by an intelligent being
do you see the infinte loop you have just entered . like an iphone stock on the infamous restore mode. it is such a pain in the ass.

Premise 5; Hence, there is intelligent being behind the transformation of a very tiny ball of cell called zygote into a beautiful new born baby during embryonic development. It is this very intelligent being that many people described as God
this is a conclusioin and not a premise just like 2,3,and 4. As far as logic is concerned youve only said one thing in different ways; the universe needs an intelligent designer.

Please for the sake of sincerity, which of the five premises stated above is wrong and explain the reason why it is wrong.
'"do you see the infinte loop you have just entered . like an iphone stock on the infamous restore mode. it is such a pain in the ass."
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by LordReed(m): 12:02pm On Nov 04, 2019
Truthdefender66:
@ Blakjewelry, LordReed, rottennaija, budaatum

Let me give you my final evidence for the existence of God. It is now left for you to either accept it or reject it. See the evidence below

If an engineer want to construct and assemble an engine of a car by following a set of information given in a particular manual, then he has to carry out the following processes listed below;

1. He has to read the information.

2. He has to interpret what he has read

3. He has to implement his interpretation by performing some active and specific movements towards the construction and assembling of the car engine.

Now consider the following premises of argument

Premise 1; From our experience as intelligent human being, we know that the process of reading an information, interpreting it and then implementing the interpretation to construct and assemble the different parts of any complex system (like an engine of a car) is a work of intelligence.

Is a bird building a nest or bee building a beehive or ant building an ant hill or a beaver building a dam the work of an intelligent agent? What textbook do these agents read in order to build these structures?


Premise 2; During embryonic development, the information on the DNA template is usually read, interpreted and implemented to construct and assemble different parts of human body from a very tiny ball of cell called zygote

DNA is a chemical and undergoes chemical reactions which have been likened to information being read but that is just a simplification. There is no actual reading, interpretation or implementation going as we understand those words because they require a conscious agent. It is like saying the sun is implementing sunlight, we don't use such language for unconscious processes.


Premise 3; Therefore, the transformation of a very tiny zygote into a beautiful new born baby all by itself during embryonic development is definitely the work of intelligence (follow from premise 1 and premise 2).

It is not. It is the result of non conscious processes unless you are counting the efforts of parents to ensure the survival of the process and resulting baby.


Premise 4; But intelligence cannot be the owner of itself; it must be owned by an intelligent being

Good, so show us a real life example of a disembodied intelligence that we can interrogate or subject to testing.


Premise 5; Hence, there is intelligent being behind the transformation of a very tiny ball of cell called zygote into a beautiful new born baby during embryonic development. It is this very intelligent being that many people described as God

You mean conclusion not premise is my guess. Still a faulty one. You leap from there is intelligence to the intelligence is a god. None of your premises deals with how we can recognise that the intelligence you are speaking about is a god. You didn't even define the subset of things that are classed as god for us to know what it is you even mean by it.



Please for the sake of sincerity, which of the five premises stated above is wrong and explain the reason why it is wrong.

All but premise 4 are faulty. Premise 4 is correct but it requires demonstration for it to be true in the context of unseen beings.

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Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by rottennaija(m): 1:21pm On Nov 04, 2019
Truthdefender66:
@ Blakjewelry, LordReed, rottennaija, budaatum

Let me give you my final evidence for the existence of God. It is now left for you to either accept it or reject it. See the evidence below

If an engineer want to construct and assemble an engine of a car by following a set of information given in a particular manual, then he has to carry out the following processes listed below;

1. He has to read the information.

2. He has to interpret what he has read

3. He has to implement his interpretation by performing some active and specific movements towards the construction and assembling of the car engine.

Now consider the following premises of argument

Premise 1; From our experience as intelligent human being, we know that the process of reading an information, interpreting it and then implementing the interpretation to construct and assemble the different parts of any complex system (like an engine of a car) is a work of intelligence.

Premise 2; During embryonic development, the information on the DNA template is usually read, interpreted and implemented to construct and assemble different parts of human body from a very tiny ball of cell called zygote

Premise 3; Therefore, the transformation of a very tiny zygote into a beautiful new born baby all by itself during embryonic development is definitely the work of intelligence (follow from premise 1 and premise 2).

Premise 4; But intelligence cannot be the owner of itself; it must be owned by an intelligent being

Premise 5; Hence, there is intelligent being behind the transformation of a very tiny ball of cell called zygote into a beautiful new born baby during embryonic development. It is this very intelligent being that many people described as God

Please for the sake of sincerity, which of the five premises stated above is wrong and explain the reason why it is wrong.


In all, it can be summarise thus far. Everything we see is based on evidence which is subjected to test, but when it comes to the intelligent being, we just have to have faith about and depend on the hearsay of those who claim to have seen it?

The Irony of it is, the story shows that Abraham whom all the abrahamic religion originates from requested for firm evidence before he could believe, and yet we are to simply have faith today?

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Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Blakjewelry(m): 5:03pm On Nov 04, 2019
Truthdefender66:


Are you now saying the two serious problems explained up there are not real simply because we are yet to physically observe the existence of God ?
Cambrian period is part of the evolution series it did not in anyway point to a creator after all even if the organism then can be said to complex then are just simple organism compare todays organism in fact they are the parent material were todays organism rose from, so they are still part of the evolution series
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Blakjewelry(m): 5:24pm On Nov 04, 2019
Truthdefender66:




Honestly, what we observed in CAMBRIAN EXPLOSION (i:e the biology's big bang) is enough to prove that unintelligent gradual evolution of new body plan from the old body plan through slight modifications over millions of years is far away from the truth.
its like you do not fully understand the issue you are discussing for the sake of others reading this now tell me if you believe cambrian period point to the work of god and not evolution process explain to me how organism from the picture from the link i attached gave rise to life as we know it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_Period
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Blakjewelry(m): 5:46pm On Nov 04, 2019
rottennaija:


What makes you believe we are the most intelligent creature in the whole universe? Because we can build roads? Aeroplane? etc? What makes you think those we call animals don't have a higher intellect than us?.

And then most importantly, why has your gods and tales of them disappeared as humans began to have a better understanding of the world?
that is humans reason, always thinking they are the most unique organism on the planet but simple study of other creature leave them wow.
we forget they are creatures which are better organ in life like some ant and termites, see in the infra red,have sonar or ecolocation, some can perfectly navigate using the earth magnet, nose so sensitive that they can smell a scent miles away. every organism chose is path or method of survival.

in the evolution thread our closest neighbor exhibit man like behavior, i was watching a program were a chimp had to use a broad leaf to act as cover while it was rain, i seen a video of them using stick to test the dept of a river while trying to cross.
Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Blakjewelry(m): 5:58pm On Nov 04, 2019
LordReed:




What did we observe from the Cambrian explosion that disproved evolution?



non rather this is a classical case of the eye see what the mind wants to see, i was even trying to call his attention to the fact the Cambrian period is a part of the evolution tree after all it was discovered before darwin propose his theory and he is very much aware of the period

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Re: Let All The Evolutionists Come And See Where The Problems Really Lie by Aaronsrod: 6:08pm On Nov 04, 2019
angelEmade:
OP...over a billion years, any fucking thing can happen.
one thing physics have taught us is that time has no respect for rules and the norm. the galaxies and the universe and einstein's relativity theory confirms it all.

Lies from the pit of Hell!!

Our forefathers were not monkeys.

Our God is a killer. He is proclaimed in the Bible as a God of Fire.

Fear Him always!!

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