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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Islam for Muslims / Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery (51800 Views)
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Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 5:51pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
@alexis...so how old was Mary when she was betroth, married and pregnant? since you know better than the catholic priest scholars and the jewish culture |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 5:57pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
tintingz: @alexis...so how old was Mary when she was betroth, married and pregnant? since you know better than the catholic priest scholars and the jewish culture The Bible never said anything about her age. You claimed she was 12. You should answer the question where you saw it in the Bible. While at it, ask the Catholic priests where they read she was 12 in the Bible as well. The Hadith stated this, I didn't - (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234). I didn't say some Islamic scholar stated it or it was the culture of the arabs. I took it from one of your holy writs. All I am asking is that you do the same to prove Mary was 12. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 6:11pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis:dude you are not making any sense...must everything be said in the bible? Why do we have history records... The historian, early churchs knew the age of Mary(as) when she got married to Joseph and it was 12 yr old do your research... is like asking same in the Quran what age was Aisha(r) when she married Mohammed(sa) Maybe i should direct you to this link Was Jesus Crucified On A Cross, Pole, Or Stake? http://nairaland.com/1162765/jesus-crucified-cross-pole-stake I will be waiting for your answers there from the bible scriptures, i dont wanna post in this thread again |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 6:28pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
tintingz: dude you are not making any sense...must everything be said in the bible? Why do we have history records... The historian, early churchs knew the age of Mary(as) when she got married to Joseph and it was 12 yr old do your research... is like asking same in the Quran what age was Aisha(r) when she married Mohammed(sa) Let us handle the Mary was 12 question. Leave Jesus Crucified on a pole for another discussion. If you are claiming Mary was 12 - Isn't the Bible the authoritative source for the question at hand. Wasn't it the Bible you got to know that Mary was the mother of Jesus from or that she married Joseph? TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, the Hadith stated Aisha was 6. I have referenced that SEVERAL times. Or you don't believe the Hadith anymore? Isn't it part of your holy writs? Now, you are side-stepping the question again and saying the Bible shouldn't be the source. I should check HISTORY and early records. WHERE ARE THE HISTORY AND EARLY RECORDS FROM OOOOOOH!. Aisha was 6 was taken from your Hadith - Bukhari 58:234. Isn't my research from your Hadith? Did I quote some Islamic scholar Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234: Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. The girl clearly stated she was 6 years old. Na from your hadith ooohhhh! I didn't read it up anywhere else. Even the child dad wasn't in support of it, yet Mohammed said, oh boy - forget that thing; this is Islam, it is possible: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." I haven't quoted any other history book, I have only quoted the Hadith except of course you are claiming the Hadith is wrong or you don't believe in it. If you can't FIND Mary was 12 when she married Joseph it is because the Bible never made such claim. In your justification, you will claim that the Catholics and Jews said it and I should check it up. You claimed it, I didn't so the burden of proof is on you - not me. Again, I am still waiting for your Historical reference and PROOF! |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by nagoma(m): 7:52pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis: I am using a small device so cannot reproduce your rather repetitive comments here but I will attempt to cover them. 1. Talking about what your ancestors 's marriage customs were 1500 years ago, you evaded the question as expected. The aim of the question is to tell you that 14-1500 years is a very long time and few cultures in the world would have records of marriages at that time and the ages of the brides. But I can tell you that child marriage both between 2 chidden and between a child bride and an older man were common in most societies including Europian societies. Some of the sociological reasons for that were a) the importance of chastity and preservation of Virginity in girls. b). Economic reasons as girls and women had less opportunity to live and independent life, work and earn a living. Marriage of the female child still takes place in many cultures around the world but is reducing due partly, to advocacy for children's right , women's right and human rights in general. You cannot make a judgement of issues related to specific cultures of events that happened 14- 1500 years ago based on today's values just because it gives you a cheap means of ridiculing Islam. Values do change with time, that is why those who at this time openly object to homosexuality and same sex marriage are considered intolerant and out of tune or even oppressors! This was not so years ago. I will comment about your geography/ astronomy question of the water sunset next. But I will remind you to tell me how your ancestors married and the age of their brides 1500 years ago - for you even 500 years ago would be fine- assuming that you didn't forcibly marry monkeys. 2 Likes |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by nagoma(m): 8:35pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis: I wonder how you got to know your ancestors expertise in astronomy and geography when the Christian world was drowning in ignorance , dogma and superstition at that time. Why did your ancestors not talk? Must have been the fear of the inquisition, the punitive heracy laws and death from blasphemy convictions. You will know about the Italian philosopher , astronomer and mathematician named Galileo ( 1564 - 1642). He made subscription that the world was round and not flat and the sun and not the earth was the center of the planetary universe. He. Nearly lost his life as these assertions contradicted the views of Christianity and the church. He had to in 1615 face the church inquisition and was tortured and forced to withdraw his proclamation of face death. He still had to live the rest of his life under house arrest.the history of torture and killings by the church will fill a small library. I am sure you know that. The other part of this comment is that ; the islamic ruler of Baghdad Khalif El- Ma'amun ( ruled 813-833 CE) who was the spiritual and political leader of the Muslim world at that time., sent surveyors to make measurements that would make it possible to measure the diameter of the earth. They did, and from this obtained the radius of the globe. Their estimates , according to experts compare very well even to the values used today.the point is that you must know that the world is not flat but round to ask for a dimeter measurement.radius and diameter are indices applicable to circles and spheres only. This happened 800 years before Galeleo and his ordeal. The Muslim Khalif was at least 800 years ahead of the Christian world in this respect at that time. As for your sunset in water , it is not in the Qur'an and if it's Hadith , it will need to be authenticated. As you are aware after the time of Muhammad ( SAW) the Jews fabricated and proliferated false hadiths to spite and possibly destroy Islam , they ( you) are still doing that and this must be one of the fabricated hadiths, unless you can trace it's origin and chain of transmission. Such a matter considered so seriously would have been in the Quoran if it was not a fabrication. 2 Likes |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 8:51pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
nagoma: You keep shooting yourself in the foot. Justifying marriage to a 6 year old that it was a cultural thing that happened 1500 years ago is a cheap way of tackling the problem. You also stated that it was done in other societies i.e. European societies as well trying to rationalize it and make it acceptable. In justifying your statements; your friends said Mary was 12 years old yet haven't been able to prove it when asked to; as if 12 and 6 are the same? Makes me wonder where they learned math from. All they can say is - it was the custom of the Jews. Totally void of any sound reasoning just to score religious points. Stop claiming it is primarily cultural, such marriages are permitted under SHARIA LAW and it has been happening since your prophet married an underage girl and it is still happening now. If your claim that it is cultural and the arabs did it, why is child marriage so rampant with muslims in Northern Nigeria & other Islamic countries? Are northern Nigerians Arabs? Are muslims in Bangladesh Arabs? For you to tackle the primary cause that Islam permits child marriage and it should stop, you are here shouting - IT IS CULTURAL AND HAPPENED 1500 years ago, so it is okay. Maybe I should give you example of your Islamic scholars and their views so you will know it is not a cultural thing nor was it confined to 1500 years ago: 1. Skeikh Mohamed Ibn Abderrahmane Al-Maghraoui - A nine-year-old girl has the same sexual capacities like a woman of twenty and over 2. Dr. Ahmad al-Mu’bi, Saudi marriage officiant - You can have a marriage contract even with a 1-year-old girl, not to mention a girl of 9, 7 or 8. But is the girl ready for sex or not? What is the appropriate age for sex for the first time? This varies according to environment and tradition 3. Sheikh Mohamed Ben Abderrahman Al-Maghraou - The marriage of nine-year-old girls is not forbidden because according to the Hadith (the Prophet Mohammed's sayings), Mohammed married Aisha when she was only seven-years-old and he consummated his union when she was nine 4. Imam Sani, a Nigerian cleric - Child marriage in Islam is permissible. In the Koran there is no specific age of marriage...[If the government imposed new laws against child marriage] There will be violent conflict from the Muslims, saying that 'no, we will not accept this, we'd rather die than accept something which is not a law from Allah 5. Sheikh Hamoud Hashim al-Tharihi, general secretary of the Vice and Virtue Committee and member of the Islah Party in Yemen - Because this happened to the Prophet, we cannot tell people that it is prohibited to marry at an early age 6. Mufti Fazlul Haque Amini - Banning child marriage will cause challenging the marriage of the holy prophet of Islam, who also married minor Ayesha, when she was just eight years old. The new law [seeking to ban child marriages] initiated by the current government [of Bangladesh] will put the moral character of the prophet into controversy and challenge. Islam permits child marriage and it will not be tolerated if any ruler will ever try to touch this issue in the name of giving more rights to women. Let me bring it home for you in Nigeria before you claim again it is cultural. One Islamic land where child marriage is common -- in fact, more common than anywhere else in the world -- is northern Nigeria, where Sharia is in force. The Nigerian government has tried to act against the practice, passing a law in 2003, the Child Rights Act, that set the minimum age for marriage at eighteen. Islamic clerics have been the fiercest opponents of this law. Nigeria is made up of 36 states, of which 18 have passed the Child Rights Act; however, only one majority-Muslim Nigerian state has passed the law, and that with a change that set "puberty," rather than the age of eighteen, as the minimum requirement for lawful marriage. The result? As many as 800,000 Nigerian women are afflicted with fistula, a disease resulting from early intercourse and pregnancy. Go on claiming that it is cultural and it only happened in Mohammed era. 1 Like |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 9:10pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
nagoma: Now, you are here claiming that the Hadith I quoted is not authentic - NA WA OH!. So, you are denying your own Hadith because it tells you the truth? Common Islamic defense of bringing up totally different subject to get off topic. Leave this for another discussion or open a thread and we will discuss it. Stick to this one for now. Perhaps Mohammed should have done the same thing the islamic ruler of Baghdad Khalif El- Ma'amun (ruled 813-833 CE) did before he claimed the sun set in a pool of warm water. You are now blaming his statements on the Jews that they distorted your Hadith. Your ignorance is laughable. The Bible indicates that the earth is round/circle. It did so before your Galileo or your muslim ruler attempted to. Yet Allah in all his Wisdom couldn't clarify that but some jews wanted to LIE on Mohammed so bad that they introduced false Hadiths that muslims read everyday - NA WA OH!. zkak - Said the Hadith was in-correct but from a muslim source. You are here saying it was the Jews that wrote that Hadith that muslims read. Probably you two should sit down and verify which is which before you display your fallacy online. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by nagoma(m): 9:18pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis: You forgot to refer me to the verse in the bible where it says the world is round. I wonder why those wicked Christians had to torture the poor scientist Galeleo accusing him of heresy. Don't they read the bible? So they didn't see that verse either? |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 9:29pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis:any source for this your listed trash... |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 9:30pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
nagoma: Call them up and ask them. Write the Pope in Rome and ask why his Church did it. Here is the verse you asked for Isaiah 40:22. Again, this topic is not about the Bible and it's claim, it's about the Quran, Hadith and it's own claim. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 9:31pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
tintingz: @alexis |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by nagoma(m): 9:32pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis:You have not told me at what age girls were married in your community 1500 years ago. It's such a pain discussing with a cantankerous person. I have not in anyway justified child marriage. I only tried to explain sociologically ( not religiously ) why it was and is still happening. You keep dwelling on the prophet just to score cheap pouts against Islam when your priests , your intercessors are violating little boys with impunity as we speak. The law of Christian silence is hiding them frm prosecution. They are not even sacked from the church. The man ( steward to the pope who tried to blow the whistle was quickly bundled up and imprisoned. Deal with this reality instead of worrying about Muhammad. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 9:33pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
tintingz: any source for this your listed trash... I will provide it. However, I am still waiting for your PROOF that Mary was 12 years old when she married Joseph. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 9:34pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis:hahaha foul! |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 9:35pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
nagoma: If you haven't justified child marriage - Then you are against Mohammed marrying Aisha? - Answer this question in all honesty. Perhaps if you read my response to you more closely and see where I mentioned it even though it might be a cultural issue; in Islam it is permitted, even 1500 years later. You supposedly knew my ancestors because you called them Gorillas and monkeys - I replied that even if they were - they don't molest and marry their young and they sure knew where the sun set |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 9:40pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis:can you tell us what age...? |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 9:45pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
tintingz: can you tell us what age...? The Bible never gave an account of her AGE oh! I have told you this already, I never made the claim. So, that is why I am interested in your account of her age when she married. Your only source is Jewish customs and the Catholic church - is that all you can come up with? The Hadith was VERY precise and on point when it stated the AGE that Mohammed married Aisha & it CONFIRMED IT. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by nagoma(m): 10:57pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis: I saw circle of the earth in a sentence. Did the pope in 1615 not read the bible? Or did he not see it and interpret it as you did?Or perhaps this is in the newest version of the bible? - I understand there are many different versions. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by nagoma(m): 11:02pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis: Read my posting again , I didn't call your ancestors gorillas and monkeys. I said your ancestors might have been intermarrying with gorillas and monkeys 1500 yrs. ago. You wouldn't know that, would you?you were not there and there are no records. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 11:29pm On Jan 19, 2013 |
alexis:so how do the catholic knew about her age |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by proo212(m): 1:05am On Jan 20, 2013 |
Alexis, you know they cannot go against their prophet as he is their greatest moral example. That would be shirk 33:21 Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 1:27am On Jan 20, 2013 |
nagoma: You asked me to provide evidence in the Bible, I have provided it and YOU HAVE READ IT YOURSELF. The Bible is the ONLY authoritative source for a Christian - no pastor, no Pope, no Bishop. If you feel the Pope in 1615 interpretation supersedes the Bible interpretation - why are you addressing that question to me? I confirm the Bible position on it; no one else. If the Bible you read Isaiah 40:22 from is different from what you quoted, perhaps you can let us know what yours read. Islam claim the Bible is corrupt and what we read now is not the original. I am sure muslims know where the original is - can you tell us what the original Bible said? Stop trying to distort the evidence and invalidate it. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 1:40am On Jan 20, 2013 |
tintingz: so how do the catholic knew about her age Why didn't you ask yourself that question before you CLAIMED she was 12. Imagine me making a claim that the prophet married Aisha when she was 2 years old. The Quran or the Hadith never said that - so you will ask me where I got that from. I will have to PROVE it or you will call me a LIAR - THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Sit for a while and reason intelligently: The same "Catholics" that told you the earth was flat in 1615 are the same "Catholics" telling you Mary was 12 when she married Joseph. Your friend Nagoma is of the opinion that because they are Catholics, they speak for the Bible. I have showed him from the Bible, that the earth is circular. Just the same way I am showing you that the Bible never at any point mentioned or discussed the age of Mary when she married. On the flip side - the Hadith (a holy writ of yours) does specify the age of Aisha when Mohammed married her. It also CONFIRMS the prophet stand on where the sun sets. So, arguing and twisting it or defending it by justifying it and comparing it with whatever doesn't do anything. The PROOF is from your own Holy book(s) |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 5:51am On Jan 20, 2013 |
^hahahaha funny fellow Catholic brought christianity to Nigeria and they honour Mary to extent that she became their godess(Mary mother of God) so they have every historical prove about Mary's life time and other saints So dont come here telling me Aisha(r) was 9yr old when she got married to the Prophet(sa) cuz many historical written tells us she was 15 to 16 years when she(Aisha(r) married Mohammed(sa) |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by alexis(m): 7:50am On Jan 20, 2013 |
tintingz: ^hahahaha funny fellow tintingz - I have set the record straight, whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you. If your HISTORY tells you Aisha was 15 to 16 years before Mohammed married her - please show us that history. The Hadith claimed she was 6 and 7. You still haven't proved Mary was 12, now you are here claiming Aisha was 15 to 16. I will leave you to your own reasoning. Good luck and God bless. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by skak(m): 8:09am On Jan 20, 2013 |
alexis: [quote author=alexis] First of all the name is spelled skak not zkak as you wrote. Mind you! Secondly, hadith can be altered by the enemies of Islam becouse it was a narration just like your bible. But we have our standards before accepting any hadith i.e the chain of transmission. And yet, i gave you the hadith together with the chain of transmission and a reason why the hadith you brought was rejected so also the reason why the hatith i brought was accepted but you keep on exposing your ignoramus status. Just becouse you are fools and ignorants enough to accept any unreliable and unreasonable version of bible so you think we are the same? ? Any hadith must be justifiable in our religious paradigm. So dont try to violate our rights and standards as we never did either to you. In addition, you insisted that mary's age was not mention in bible. Is this not a shame? ? That mean you cannot give a comprehaensive account of a lady whom you referred and considered to as a Goddess. If this is the case then, i can say even your bible (so called the words of God) is not all knowing, that is why you are a confuse person to the fact that; ''whoever stands for nothing, will fall for anything'' if you don't know at what age mary got marriage then you must accept any source given to you becouse you lack justification as your bible left you ignorant and blinded. Further more, you keep on saying Islam is a religion of violence becouse of some followers like Boko Haram without giving any verse (in Qur'an or Hadith) that support your claim. Are you not most interested on fact rather than words of mouth ?? If yes, then i will say Nagoma was write by mentioning the sex abuse which is frequently and continuously been made by the christian people of the highest ranking and at same time a fools of the highest order. Not only that, about violence, i will show you how christianity teaches violence against any further questions of its type. According to your bible, Jesus came for division rather than peace. Luke 12:51-53 “Do you think that I have come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, no, but rather division. For from now on, there will be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law, and daughter-in-law against her mother-in- law. Matthew 10:34 “Don’t think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn’t come to send peace, but a sword". I now find the reason why hitler was a massacre and why Christian are killing and terrorising Muslims in Jos. In addition to this: Deuteronomy 13:12-15 ''If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals'' Oh Allah save muslim and animals from this barbaric creatures. Ameen. Not only that, even animals are terrorised: Leviticus 20:15-16 ''If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed''. isn't this laughable and ridiculous? . I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. this is also crazy and i cant stop laughing. A simple example that will show you how peace is islam is from the name itself. Al-Islam. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 10:05am On Jan 20, 2013 |
alexis:God bless... I wont post any long post but if you can take your time and read any of this three links, you will understand more about the historical writtens of her age What Was Aisha's Real age when she married Prophet Muhammad? What was the age of Aisha (Aysha or Ayesha) at the time her marriage to Prophet Mohammad was consummated? Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 yearsold. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha, if she gotmarried in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage. 15 to 16 or 18 to 20 years old was the history recorded |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by plappville(f): 3:47pm On Jan 20, 2013 |
tintingz:Why did God send a lying spirit? (1 Kings 22:22) The Bible teaches that God does not lie (Heb.6:18), so how is this possible: 1 Kings 22:20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And the spirit said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.” The answer is that this did not literally happen, God did no such thing. The idea that God really put a lying spirit in anyone’s mouth comes from not reading the full context. King Ahab and his court prophets 1Kings 22:1 For three years Syria and Israel continued without war. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat the king of Judah came down to the king of Israel. 3 And the king of Israel said to his servants, “Do you know that Ramoth-gilead belongs to us, and we keep quiet and do not take it out of the hand of the king of Syria?” 4 And he said to Jehoshaphat, “Will you go with me to battle at Ramoth-gilead?” And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, “I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses.” The context is that the king of the northern kingdom, Israel, wants to persuade the king of the southern kingdom, Judah, to join his war. But to do so he has to convince the doubtful, and pious, king of Judah, that the war is what God wants. So Ahab marshals his ‘house prophets’, the ones who say what Ahab wants. This event appears to be after Ahab’s repentance from Baal worship (1 Kings 21:25), so these appear to be prophets of Yahweh not Baal — albeit it the Yahweh who was worshipped in golden calves at Bethel and Dan, rather than the true Yahweh who was worshipped in the temple at Jerusalem. 1 Kings 22:5 And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, “Inquire first for the word of the Lord.” 6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said to them, “Shall I go to battle against Ramoth-gilead, or shall I refrain?” And they said, “Go up, for the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” However the king of Judah is nervous — how can he believe these prophets of the Lord who eat at Ahab’s table and worship at Bethel and Dan? So Ahab reluctantly is forced to send for Micaiah, a real prophet. 1 Kings 22:7 But Jehoshaphat said, “Is there not here another prophet of the Lord of whom we may inquire?” 8 And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “There is yet one man by whom we may inquire of the Lord, Micaiah the son of Imlah, but I hate him, for he never prophesies good concerning me, but evil.” And Jehoshaphat said, “Let not the king say so.” 9 Then the king of Israel summoned an officer and said, “Bring quickly Micaiah the son of Imlah.” Then follows the performance of Ahab’s house-prophets, led by Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah: 1 Kings 22:10 Now the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah were sitting on their thrones, arrayed in their robes, at the threshing floor at the entrance of the gate of Samaria, and all the prophets were prophesying before them. 11 And Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made for himself horns of iron and said, “Thus says the Lord, ‘With these you shall push the Syrians until they are destroyed.’” 12 And all the prophets prophesied so and said, “Go up to Ramoth-gilead and triumph; the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” Following this performance, the guards bring, under protest, Micaiah: 1 Kings 22:13 And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah said to him, “Behold, the words of the prophets with one accord are favorable to the king. Let your word be like the word of one of them, and speak favorably.” 14 But Micaiah said, “As the Lord lives, what the Lord says to me, that I will speak.” 15 And when he had come to the king, the king said to him, “Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall we refrain?” And he answered him, “Go up and triumph; the Lord will give it into the hand of the king.” 16 But the king said to him, “How many times shall I make you swear that you speak to me nothing but the truth in the name of the Lord?” It is not clear why Micaiah’s positive answer brings anger from the king. Perhaps it is far too easy. Or perhaps there was a note of sarcasm in the response, which we do not pick up in writing. Or alternatively the king realised that “Go up and triumph” is not the same as “You will surely triumph”, and that Micaiah did not say which king — he may secretly have meant the king of Syria! In any case Micaiah’s next comment is wholly negative: 17 And he said, “I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd. And the Lord said, ‘These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.’”18 And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?” So he was predicting the victory of the king of Syria… not of Ahab Micaiah’s famous lying spirit prophecy 19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.” There are several indications that this “vision” is ironic, if not sarcastic. First, the context; does a prophet of God suddenly produce a “vision” to order? Prophecies can be spur of the moment, but visions generally come at night or in deep prayer (2 Sam.7:4, Job 33:15, Ezekiel 1:1). The instant nature of this “vision” suggests the false prophet visions of Jer.23:16 Second; the prophets of Ahab have already said what Ahab wants to hear, and it is evident that the prophets of Ahab need no encouragement from angels to lie Third; nowhere in the Bible do we find the teaching that the court of heaven is an indecisive democracy with God asking for advice or ideas from the “host of heaven” (Hebrew, Sabaoth). Nor do we have one angel saying one thing, one saying another. This sort of heavenly court is found in Canaanite myth — for example in the little we know about Baal — but totally unknown in the Bible, since God is a God who does not take advice (“who hath been his counsellor? Isa 40:13-14, etc.). Then God agrees to be behind a lie, a deception. Again this is almost unheard of in Bible (“Let God be true though every one were a liar Rom.3:4, etc.) until the exception of the “great delusion” of 2Thess.2:11. There’s a particular oddness about the use of “host” here rather than “angels”. The basic meaning of angels (messengers, malakim) is appropriate to the sending of a lying spirit, whereas “host” (sabaoth, armies) is not always positive in the Old Testament. The first reference to the “host of heaven” (Det.4:19, 17:3) is to forbid their worship, then we have positive mention of the Lord of Hosts at Shiloh (1Sam.1:3) but then again negative references associating their worship with Baal (2Kings 17:6, 21:3, Jeremiah 8:2, Acts 7:42). In fact, of 18 uses of the phrase “host of heaven”, at least 15 are negative, and of the remaining 3, 2 probably refer to literal stars in the sky. Fourth; Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah clearly understood it as sarcastic, and aimed at himself: 1 Kings 22:24 Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, “How did the Spirit of the Lord go from me to speak to you?” 25 And Micaiah said, “Behold, you shall see on that day when you go into an inner chamber to hide yourself.”26 And the king of Israel said, “Seize Micaiah, and take him back to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the king’s son, 27 and say, ‘Thus says the king, “Put this fellow in prison and feed him meager rations of bread and water, until I come in peace.”’” 28 And Micaiah said, “If you return in peace, the Lord has not spoken by me.” And he said, “Hear, all you peoples!” Note in particular: “How did the Spirit of the Lord go from me to speak to you?”. The meaning is clear enough — you Micaiah say that I’m lying with a spirit from the host of heaven in my mouth, well who is to say that you are not lying yourself? And to go with that, slap! The end of the story is predictable enough. Despite Ahab having disguised himself and put Jehoshaphat in the line of danger, a random arrow struck Ahab, but Jehoshaphat survived. We do not read of the end of Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah on the day when he goes into an inner chamber to hide himself, but this too is assumed. It would not be unlikely that Ahab’s widow Jezebel had him killed for the “lying prophecy” which killed her husband. It’s not as if she needed an excuse to kill a prophet of the Lord, even one of the Lord who was worshipped in the golden calves. Conclusion In sum, there’s nothing in the above that suggests that there was a literal meeting of the Sabaoth in heaven where God asked for their suggestions. Or that that’s how God’s court works at all. It’s simply an ironic prophecy, like so many of the prophecies of Elijah and Isaiah. It’s also possible that Micaiah may have sown in the irony some commentary about the religious views of the prophets of the golden calves, the ones who worshipped at Bethel and Dan. We simply don’t know — we have no information on the religion of the northern kingdom other than a few glimpses in Kings and Chronicles and Isaiah-period prophecies against “Ephraim”. It’s also possible that the later comment comparing Manasseh’s building of altars to the host of heaven in Jerusalem being “like Ahab” (2Kings 21:3-5) indicates that Ahab had done the same at Bethel and Dan. It also isn’t out of the question that these northern prophets had, during the years when they were forced to worship Baal by Ahab’s wife Jezebel, absorbed some of the Canaanite ideas about a heavenly court with an indecisive and fallible god (Baal), and let that distort their view of the God of Israel. At least we know that Det.4:19 predicts and Acts 7:42 confirms that worship of the “host of heaven” was a continuing problem in Israel and Judah. In either case, the context and strange language looks like Micaiah is attacking Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah with his own beliefs — much as Jesus parodied Pharisee beliefs in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. In all, this “vision” is not a secure base to argue that God literally helps false prophets to do what comes naturally — lie. |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by plappville(f): 4:10pm On Jan 20, 2013 |
Hallie27: My History is the Bible, So where can you prove those suicide bombers did that onder the instruction of Jesus in the New testament? You should validate your claims with the bible as you happens to be accusing Jesus....prove it..woman prove it! What was BOKO HARAM DEFENDING? HOW DOES THE LATTER OF THIS THREAD PROVE THE HADITH/QURAN ACCURATE? MUSLIMS SHOULD LEAVE THE BIBLE ALONE, THERE ARE SOME PROPHECIES ON ISLAMS AND MANY OTHERS, THEY ARE THE ONES THAT SPEAKS OF FALSE PROPHETS. AND THE ONES THAT TOLD US ISLAM WILL KILL CHRISTIANS THINKING THEY ARE DOING A SERVICE TO GOD. John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom.- Koran 9:39 Christians will be burned in the Fire.-Koran 5:72 Fight those among the People of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians]... who do not profess the true religion,(islam) until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.-Koran (9.29) |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by plappville(f): 4:24pm On Jan 20, 2013 |
MUHAMMED HAD 100PER HATRED FOR BLACK: Whoever says Muhammad was black must be killed…(Ash-Shifa, Tr. Aisha Abdarrahman, 2004) Disbelievers’ faces will be black on the judgment day and they will receive God's penalty...3:106 White faces on the judgment day will receive God's mercy...3:107 Ahmad ibn Abi Sulayman, the companion of Sahnun said, "Anyone who says that the Prophet was black should be killed.(ibid, p.375) In one Hadith, Mohammed referred to Blacks as Raisn Heads (Sahih Al Bukhary vol. 1, no. 662 and vol. 9, no. 256), and as pug nosed slaves in Sahih Moslem vol. 9 pages 46 and 47. Those who die fighting for Allah will go to heaven. 3:195 Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33 The transgressors will roast in the Fire and be forced to drink boiling liquids followed by ice cold drinks. 38:55-9 Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis.9:34 Jesus was not the Son of God. Those who say he was (Christians) are going to hell. 19:35-37 contradicting Jesus. Luke1:35 The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called the Son of God. ©NET Read More. According to Islam, Nathanael also is in hell.. (John 1:49) Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel!” |
Re: Prophet Muhammad's Letter To The Monks Of St. Catherine Monastery by tintingz(m): 4:28pm On Jan 20, 2013 |
@plappville...interesting fairytale, this doesnt change the fact that jehovah sent a LYING SPIRIT to his prophets...keep twisting your bible scriptures and said it is a "vision" ...well you have never accept my explanation either |
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