ekt_bear:

@maclatunji: I don't want this discussion to get too abstract yet ("truly secular state." Kindly explain to me why the FG should sponsor any individual for a pilgrimage.

Why is it OK to use public funds for private purposes in this way?

How is this not essentially corruption?

On this one, I can agree with you. It is sad that instead of empowering the people to visit any holy sites they want to visit on their own, the government is giving-out Greek gifts in the name of pilgrimage sponsorship. However, wetin man go do?

ziccoit:


I am a Muslim, not proving to be knowledgeable but has some basic understandings of what my religion dictates. Can somebody please explained and give incontrovertible ample pieces of evidence from Bible, Quran and Hadith why a Nigeria government should use the[b] public fund[/b] in sponsoring people for pilgrimage?

I would rather the government give you logistic support and create an enabling environment for you to raise such money. The problem with our current system is that any moment from now, you will have ridiculous proposals from different people wanting to visit Tibet, India and even the Sun on pilgrimage. We need to put that in check and have a clearly defined policy.

Please can someone in the house tell me when is sanusi's tenure expected i will an answer please

please when is sanusi's tenure expected to last i will need in an answer please

manny4life:

Oh well banks should not worry about interest free banking, they won't be needing it or at least anytime sooner or in the near future. I don't know how many banks will survive without lending with interest rates.

Well it may interest you to note that Interest Free Banking does not mean you will not make profit doing banking business in Nigeria. It means that Profit and Loss will be shared between the Bank(Lender) and the Borrower, which is quite different from conventional Banks that will collect their interest whether you make profit or not. Islamic banking is simply PARTICIPATORY in nature i.e both the lender and borrower must be involved. Islam believes that money should not be priced.

Don't also forget that BAD credit judgment led Nigerian banks to this present situation. If we are practising interest free banking, knowing fully well that they will share in the loss, would the banks have granted those margin facilities/loan to their cronies.

mO-RA-4-ING aL MAJIRIS! this is what happens when u let the monkey hands too long inside a pot of soup!: it assumes the form of a human hand and tries to trow u off the biz!

time for Sha-rui-si to go! GEJ, where are u? call it off on this malam NOW!

We also know how radical nigerian muslims are and the extent of what they can do is not in doubt and therefore they should be strictly monitored.

@Bandit   Your name speaks volume, what does radicalism got to do with a banking system? and how could you foolishly generalize that Nigerian Muslims are more radical than their foreign counterpart?


You are indeed a M.O.R.O.N that has serious brain disruptions comprehending a simple banking policy. Some intelligent folk there sited a close example of the UK with the same Islamic banking System and all you could deduce was to compare the number of Muslims there to that of Nigeria, anyway i think you are too dumb to understand that the more the number of people that requires a legitimate service the more important the reason to put such service(s) in place.

So if UK with a lesser number of Muslims could have Islamic Banks, then why not Nigeria with many times more Muslims than the UK.

@maclatunji, You failed to address the main point of my post in your response. I will reproduce the post here, but if you choose to remain dodgy, I'll understand. The anger against Sanusi on this issue is unjustified and I submit, bigoted.

ndu_chucks:

I'm sorry to say that many of you who are calling for Sanusi's removal, because of his implementation of this globally accepted Islamic Banking instrument, are simply bigoted, intellectually lazy, ignorant, or all of the above.

It might interest you to note that draft framework Section 9 of the draft regulatory framework released under Professor Soludo’s CBN provides that: “There shall be an advisory committee on non-interest banking within the CBN to be called the CBN Shariah Council (CSC), which will be outsourced. The CSC shall advise the CBN on Islamic laws and principles for the purposes of regulating non-interest banking business.” Also, the first paragraph of the document describes a non-interest bank as “a bank which transacts banking business, engages in trading, investments and commercial activities, as well as the provision of financial products and services in accordance with the principles and rules of Islamic commercial jurisprudence.”

The CBN under Professor Soludo went further to cite, as the basis for the regulatory framework, the enabling legislation as “Section 28 (1)(b) of the CBN Act 2007 and the following provisions of BOFIA 1991 (as amended): Sections 55(2); 52; 59(1)(a); 32(1); 61; 23(1).”

It is evident that a painstaking effort has been made to offer an insight into the background of Islamic Banking in Nigeria to ensure that it is understood.

Sanusi is simply implementing a framework established by Soludo - a framework for a globally accepted banking model. Where were you people when Soludo made his announcements and made the draft framework available to the public? awon olodo.

^^^ I do not disagree with your post, I was just being a little sarcastic. Read my first response to your post carefully again.

maclatunji:

^^^ I do not disagree with your post, I was just being a little sarcastic. Read my first response to your post carefully again.

My bad, I was too quick to pounce on you there, ma binu.

By the way, how can you with a straight face combine a European name Mac, with Olatunji, to come up with maclatunji? una no go kill person for NL.

lawalso:

Well it may interest you to note that Interest Free Banking does not mean you will not make profit doing banking business in Nigeria. It means that Profit and Loss will be shared between the Bank(Lender) and the Borrower, which is quite different from conventional Banks that will collect their interest whether you make profit or not. Islamic banking is simply PARTICIPATORY in nature i.e both the lender and borrower must be involved. Islam believes that money should not be priced.

What profit are we talking about again?

Explain hypothetically using the lender (bank) and Borrower (you) scenario how they both share profit and loss. For instance a bank lends $10,000 to you, how do they make profit on that $10,000. Conventional banking make money because they charge at least 0.01% interest rate on loaned money, that's how they survive

A clear case of Discrimination against non-muslims.

Sanusi is looking for trouble.

Such a policy clearly presents an unfair advantage to muslims in business.

No doubt 'interest payers' will some how have to subsidize the 'non interest payers'.

Possibly as a counter measure non-muslim businesses may have a include a 'Charge' or 'Levy' on Muslims they transact with.

maclatunji:

They were secure in the knowledge that he is a Christian. Muslim, Alfa-looking Sanusi just triggers alarm bells in some of my fellow Nigerians. Even The Vatican which is the greatest Christian establishment in the world take-it or leave-it will not argue against it because they learnt accounting practices from the Arab Muslims.

The part of your statement highlighted boldly is very interesting. Please could you enlighten me about this part of history I might have missed. Thanks!

virgo:

The part of your statement highlighted boldly is very interesting. Please could you enlighten me about this part of history I might have missed. Thanks!

Me too, I like to know this history; the catholic church is dated way back to the Roman empire BC, in fact like Virgo stated, can u please enlighten us.

@maclatunji
Don't u have to understand what a complaint is about b/4 engaging in name calling. I am glad that you backtracked on calling Christians jealous for demanding that the FG also pay for sending them to Jerusalem, like it is doing for muslims. That you had such a viewpoint b/4 ekt_bear called you to reason should tell u one thing. You are holding on to some extreme views that you might want to re-examine. On this point, if the FG would not listen to reason on funding Hajj to Saudi then JUSTICE demands that the FG also pay to send Christians to Jerusalem or New York - it doesn't matter.

The bolded below is another such statement - what does "led to this current state of affairs" mean? What state of affairs?

I hope you are perhaps more concerned with Boko Haram and how they are about to use "defense of the faith" to turn the North/Nigeria into a killing field that will be the envy of Afghanistan - if not immediately put down.

maclatunji:

They were secure in the knowledge that he is a Christian. Muslim, Alfa-looking Sanusi just triggers alarm bells in some of my fellow Nigerians. Even The Vatican which is the greatest Christian establishment in the world take-it or leave-it will not argue against it because they learnt accounting practices from the Arab Muslims.

I no blame una, na the laziness of Muslim leaders in the past that led to this current state of affairs. As the mother of the last Moorish ruler in Spain (Emir Muhammad XII) is reported to have told her son: "Weep as a woman for what you could not defend as a man."

@ekt_bear
Thank you for bringing reason to this discussion. It is simple, yet so hard for even erudite people to understand the dangers of putting religion into everything. At the end of the day they muddle things up, give room to extremists and then fail to see the connection between causes and effects.

The other day a survey showed that the North has only 10% of Nigeria's industries. Surprise, surprise!!! When properties are destroyed massively and heads taken off at the drop of a pen in a given region who is going to commit his hard earned funds to such regions!!! Even if you are ready to invest, where are the trained personnel to employ from the local population, when kids are not massively in school training for tomorrow's jobs and a groups such as Boko Haram that is against "education" is running rampant. Unless we beging to recognize these connections Nigeria will continue to flounder.

For those who think this is about religion, it really is not - the North's case simply has a religious bent. B/4 the recent security policies of Fashola Lagos was fast becoming a rejected place when thinking about world cities for business. Once that link was recognized and measures put in place to significantly improve the security situation that terrible trend moved into reverse. Lagos is not there yet, but is moving rapidly in the right direction.

ekt_bear:

Anyway, I guess it is now becoming clear why certain parts of Nigeria are so backwards.

Can you imagine a government, rather than spending money on education, healthcare, etc, spending its money sending people abroad on expensive trips to the middle east?

Is that really the best use of public funds?

Maybe I should convert to Mormonism, then get the FG to fly me on pilgrimmage to Utah.

Or start my own religion. . Lunarism. Instead of spending cash on healthcare/roads/education, FG should pay for me to take a trip to visit my religion's Holy Land. . . the moon 

^-- No worries.

Just contribute N100 so that I may finally complete my pilgrimage to the following location:



I've already got the Nigerian FG (and thus Nigerians in general) to contribute $10 million towards my trip.

Unfortunately, it costs on the order of $100 million to sent me there. . . so I've still got a long way to go 

@ndu_chucks
You and your sneaky digs!!! Calling someone a bigot doesn't really mean it is true. Really, the religious bigot here would be Sanusi and his "Sharia Compliant" clause. If you don't realize it - just read this definition of bigot: "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

There is absolutely no need for a "Sharia Compliant" clause in anything done by the Nigerian State. First question is: Would Sharia-Compliant require you to be a Muslim? How is Sharia-Compliance to be enforced? Do you see where this is leading?

I don't consider Sanusi a religious extremists, perhaps a zealot of some sort. However, there is great potential danger 10, 20 years down the line, when [size=14pt]REAL religious extremists[/size] begin to interpret this law. If you tend to wave off this potential danger then to look at how the constitutional provision that put Sharia courts in place as a counterpart to Customary courts has been turned into a license to precide over criminal matters - cutting-off hands and attempting stoning. Be careful what you wish for.

I did not expect you to engage in buck-passing by mentioning Soludo's name below. If Soludo planned something, but never implemented it, does that take away Sanusi's powers to revise everything - isn't that what he has done to the banks (which I actually believe was much needed). Once he assumed complete control over the CBN system, then everything becomes his responsibility as long as Soludo did nothing that was irreversible. And I doubt if Prof. Soludo would be so. . .to insert a "Sharia-Compliant" clause into the "Islamic Banking" law. I am almost sure that is Sanusi's doing!!!

Lastly, the name "Islamic Banking" should be nothing more than a name that honors the origin of that particular system of banking, but nothing more. Nothing in the law or its implementation should carry any religious undertones or obligation. Since it appears that Nigerians are incapable of understanding that simple point, we need to do away with the "Islamic Banking" name and the "Sharia-Compliance" clause and any other religious undertones being built into the system altogether.

ndu_chucks:

I'm sorry to say that many of you who are calling for Sanusi's removal, because of his implementation of this globally accepted Islamic Banking instrument,  are simply bigoted, intellectually lazy, ignorant, or all of the above.

It might interest you to note that draft framework Section 9 of the draft regulatory framework released under Professor  Soludo’s CBN provides that: “There shall be an advisory committee on non-interest banking within the CBN to be called the CBN Shariah Council (CSC), which will be outsourced. The CSC shall advise the CBN on Islamic laws and principles for the purposes of regulating non-interest banking business.” Also, the first paragraph of the document describes a non-interest bank as “a bank which transacts banking business, engages in trading, investments and commercial activities, as well as the provision of financial products and services in accordance with the principles and rules of Islamic commercial jurisprudence.”

The CBN under Professor Soludo went further to cite, as the basis for the regulatory framework, the enabling legislation as “Section 28 (1)(b) of the CBN Act 2007 and the following provisions of BOFIA 1991 (as amended): Sections 55(2); 52; 59(1)(a); 32(1); 61; 23(1).”

It is evident that a painstaking effort has been made to offer an insight into the background of Islamic Banking in Nigeria to ensure that it is understood.

Sanusi is simply implementing a framework established by Soludo - a framework for a globally accepted banking model.   Where were you people when Soludo made his announcements and made the draft framework available to the public? awon olodo.

You could have borrowed without interest from the Islamic Banking system, but I'm afraid you may not be "Sharia-Compliant".

ekt_bear:

^-- No worries.

Just contribute N100 so that I may finally complete my pilgrimage to the following location:



I've already got the Nigerian FG (and thus Nigerians in general) to contribute $10 million towards my trip.

Unfortunately, it costs on the order of $100 million to sent me there. . . so I've still got a long way to go 

@ziccoit
See how you are? The bigot here is someone who is excluding the citizens of a nation from a banking system because of religion. Just so I don't misunderstand you, since we all know conventional banking and you defined NIFI below, can you answer the following questions:

1. What is the difference between NIFI and Islamic Banking System?
2. What does it mean to be Sharia-Compliant?

The following statement of yours is not clear: Quote: "If you are not comfortable with why Islam should have a system of banking, request for a system to be started according to what you believe in. Nothing bad in having a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Sango, etc banking system. Sit down and formulate the financial principles as entrenched in your faith instead of playing bigotry. At least, we are in democracy."

You seem to be suggesting (perhaps taking it way farther than Sanusi) that this is actually to create a religion-based banking system. If so, the kind of danger I pointed to Ndu_chuks in my above write-up is already in the works. Imagine what happens when someone that doesn't even understand English, talkless of interpreting the law, is told that that the system of banking is supposed to be Sharia-Compliant.

A few months ago, the Sharia courts tried to extend their jurisdiction to the internet by banning muslims from writing anything disparaging about Sharia - because people that were unjustly treated by a sharia judge took to facebook to present their complaints to the world (something about being forced to take off a T-Shirt in Sharia Court). These are the kind of ridiculous stuff that can happen when erudite people glibly put in place laws that extremist could easily exploit!!!

ziccoit: If you are against what this gentleman in CBN is doing you are a religion bigot. Some people are talking of two issues while some three
1. Conventional banking system

2. Non-interest financial institutions

3. Islamic banking system

A NIFI is not necessarily an Islamic banking system while Islamic banking system is basically NIFI. An islamic banking system has to be shariah compliance without which it ceases to be one. Who will run this system if not those who are knowledgeable about its working mechanism. Had it been Sanusi chose to call this a Herbalist banking system which must be herbalist compliance, no one will talk. The name Islam/Muslim is what is given the bigots heart attack.

If you are not comfortable with why Islam should have a system of banking, request for a system to be started according to what you believe in. Nothing bad in having a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Sango, etc banking system. Sit down and formulate the financial principles as entrenched in your faith instead of playing bigotry. At least, we are in democracy.

Besides, Sanusi is only implementing what his predecessor who happened to be a Christian planned. And for those of you who are calling for his resignation, that wont cure your headaches and hatreds. If he doesn't, someone else is coming to finish what he has started.

koruji:

@maclatunji
Don't u have to understand what a complaint is about b/4 engaging in name calling. I am glad that you backtracked on calling Christians jealous for demanding that the FG also pay for sending them to Jerusalem, like it is doing for muslims. That you had such a viewpoint b/4 ekt_bear called you to reason should tell u one thing. You are holding on to some extreme views that you might want to re-examine. On this point, if the FG would not listen to reason on funding Hajj to Saudi then JUSTICE demands that the FG also pay to send Christians to Jerusalem or New York - it doesn't matter.

The bolded below is another such statement - what does "led to this current state of affairs" mean? What state of affairs?

I hope you are perhaps more concerned with Boko Haram and how they are about to use "defense of the faith" to turn the North/Nigeria into a killing field that will be the envy of Afghanistan - if not immediately put down.

See, the fact that I am not around does not mean you should put words in my mouth (or hands as the case may be). I never backtracked on calling Christians jealous for wanting to go to Jerusalem, I only said it is not economical on the nation's finances and that making the country prosperous economically would make more sense so that each individual can decide to visit wherever he chooses. Obasanjo, a Christian former President told the whole world on National Television that there is nothing like Christian Pilgrimage in your religion- if you are angry with that point visit the man at Ota and have a frank discussion, you can post the video for us here.

I will say this again, it is the Kenimani syndrome that is disturbing folks like you!

Regarding the current "state of affairs" I typed in my earlier posts. I meant that Islam has given a lot to the world in terms of knowledge, culture and development. The fact that we are even debating this topic shows the failure of some Muslim leaders in the past to solidify its principles in terms of politics and economics especially when they were in positions of great wealth and power.

Sharia-compliance does not require you to be a Muslim, but you would be subject to Islamic legislation. The 2 are different things. Once again, lobby for your own Non-Interest Charging Financial Institutions instead of crying wolf over an already established Islamic banking institutional framework.

virgo:

The part of your statement highlighted boldly is very interesting. Please could you enlighten me about this part of history I might have missed. Thanks!

Somebody will be happy to read your post (if he can find it, the guy has been screaming your name all over the place ) To your point, read this http://studimonetari.org/articoli/arabietemplari.html .

koruji:

@ndu_chucks
You and your sneaky digs!!! Calling someone a bigot doesn't really mean it is true. Really, the religious bigot here would be Sanusi and his "Sharia Compliant" clause. If you don't realize it - just read this definition of bigot: "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

There is absolutely no need for a "Sharia Compliant" clause in anything done by the Nigerian State. First question is: Would Sharia-Compliant require you to be a Muslim? How is Sharia-Compliance to be enforced? Do you see where this is leading?

I don't consider Sanusi a religious extremists, perhaps a zealot of some sort. However, there is great potential danger 10, 20 years down the line, when [size=14pt]REAL religious extremists[/size] begin to interpret this law. If you tend to wave off this potential danger then to look at how the constitutional provision that put Sharia courts in place as a counterpart to Customary courts has been turned into a license to precide over criminal matters - cutting-off hands and attempting stoning. Be careful what you wish for.

I did not expect you to engage in buck-passing by mentioning Soludo's name below. If Soludo planned something, but never implemented it, does that take away Sanusi's powers to revise everything - isn't that what he has done to the banks (which I actually believe was much needed). Once he assumed complete control over the CBN system, then everything becomes his responsibility as long as Soludo did nothing that was irreversible. And I doubt if Prof. Soludo would be so. . .to insert a "Sharia-Compliant" clause into the "Islamic Banking" law. I am almost sure that is Sanusi's doing!!!

Lastly, the name "Islamic Banking" should be nothing more than a name that honors the origin of that particular system of banking, but nothing more. Nothing in the law or its implementation should carry any religious undertones or obligation. Since it appears that Nigerians are incapable of understanding that simple point, we need to do away with the "Islamic Banking" name and the "Sharia-Compliance" clause and any other religious undertones being built into the system altogether.

The globally accepted instrument of Islamic Banking whose framework was established by Soludo and now being implemented by Sanusi, is nothing to be afraid of, for only the ignorant will be afraid of it.

I started to take your post seriously until I read this statement from you Nothing in the law or its implementation should carry any religious undertones or obligation. Since it appears that Nigerians are incapable of understanding that simple point, we need to do away with the "Islamic Banking" name and the "Sharia-Compliance" clause and any other religious undertones being built into the system altogether.

How dare you conclude that Nigerians are incapable of understanding anything for that matter. Your pompous and i.diotic pronouncement has simply indicated that you are not to be taken seriously. Apparently, you are the only bright Nigerian who can understand that Islamic Banking does not carry an extremist religious undertone. Olodo

Yes, it has been shown that we have difficulty differentiating "name" from substance. As I pointed out to you look at the interpretation being given to the Sharia part of our constitution, so much so that someone thinks his sharia powers extends to the internet.

You are especially guilty of being glib. The complaint is not about "Islamic Banking" - the complain is about a "Sharia Compliance" clause that transforms it into a religious activity. As the original complaints pointed out, "Islamic Banking" is in place in Europe W/O a "Sharia Compliant" clause. Nobody is deceived by your attempt to lump the two together, and calling those who reject the "clause" as rejecting "Islamic Banking".

Here is what your friend maclatunji wrote: "[size=14pt]Sharia-compliance does not require you to be a Muslim, but you would be subject to Islamic legislation[/size]". Now that is the kind of double-speak that is sending this country down the road to complete disaster!!!

You are welcome to call me any name you like - pompous, idiotic, etc pretending to defend "Nigerians" while you support quietly sneaking another knife in to stab them in the back!!!
Patriotism they say is the last refuge. . . well you know the rest of the story.

ndu_chucks:

The globally accepted instrument of Islamic Banking whose framework was established by Soludo and now being implemented by Sanusi, is nothing to be afraid of, for only the ignorant will be afraid of it.

I started to take your post seriously until I read this statement from you Nothing in the law or its implementation should carry any religious undertones or obligation. Since it appears that Nigerians are incapable of understanding that simple point, we need to do away with the "Islamic Banking" name and the "Sharia-Compliance" clause and any other religious undertones being built into the system altogether.

How dare you conclude that Nigerians are incapable of understanding anything for that matter. Your pompous and i.diotic pronouncement  has simply indicated that you are not to be taken seriously. Apparently, you are the only bright Nigerian who can understand that Islamic Banking does not carry an extremist religious undertone. Olodo

koruji:

Yes, it has been shown that we have difficulty differentiating "name" from substance. As I pointed out to you look at the interpretation being given to the Sharia part of our constitution, so much so that someone thinks his sharia powers extends to the internet.

You are especially guilty of being glib. The complaint is not about "Islamic Banking" - the complain is about a "Sharia Compliance" clause that transforms it into a religious activity. As the original complaints pointed out, "Islamic Banking" is in place in Europe W/O a "Sharia Compliant" clause. Nobody is deceived by your attempt to lump the two together, and calling those who reject the "clause" as rejecting "Islamic Banking".

Here is what your friend maclatunji wrote: "[size=14pt]Sharia-compliance does not require you to be a Muslim, but you would be subject to Islamic legislation[/size]". Now that is the kind of double-speak that is sending this country down the road to complete disaster!!!

You are welcome to call me any name you like - pompous, idiotic, etc pretending to defend "Nigerians" while you support quietly sneaking another knife in to stab them in the back!!!
Patriotism they say is the last refuge. . . well you know the rest of the story.

@bolded, so because the English Common law is one of the major sources of Nigerian law, I am now an Englishman without a shadow of a doubt, abi? It is reasoning like yours that makes our politicians take all of us for granted. Some of us simply cannot make meaning out of anything. Anyway, the keyword here is that you are ignorant and that is the truth.

koruji:

You are especially guilty of being glib. The complaint is not about "Islamic Banking" - the complain is about a "Sharia Compliance" clause that transforms it into a religious activity. As the original complaints pointed out, "Islamic Banking" is in place in Europe W/O a "Sharia Compliant" clause. Nobody is deceived by your attempt to lump the two together, and calling those who reject the "clause" as rejecting "Islamic Banking".

I'd recommend that you find and post this "Sharia Compliance" clause which you are so threatened by. Perhaps if you read the clause with an open and intellectual mind, you and others will not feel threatened.

Note that you or anyone else are not required to deposit your money in a Islamic bank, or to buy shares in such a bank. What then is your problem? People who do not have any problem with the legal compliance clauses which guide the operations of such banks, will invest and make millions. These banks will have positive impact on our economy. Go and patronize a conventional bank wherein, the MDs can rip you off at will, if that makes you comfortable. Opposition to Islamic Banking as proposed by the CBN, is irrational.

maclatunji:


Somebody will be happy to read your post (if he can find it, the guy has been screaming your name all over the place ) To your point, read this http://studimonetari.org/articoli/arabietemplari.html .
 

Thank you so much for your link. Obviously, you cannot be held guilty for an ideology propounded by a group, so I understand your position completely. However, I am of the humble opinion that the Arab/Jewish/or European propaganda to spread falsehoods just to promote their ideologies should not be swallowed hook, line and sinker. I have come across arguments like your own and frankly I think Africans, irrespective of their religious affiliations should never allow themselves to be brainwashed into accepting with complete resignation that either of the two main religions on the continent which was foisted on them through slavery, is without its intrigues, lies and drama. Still, allow me to point out that you got History completely wrong and my disagreeing with you has nothing to do with my religious affiliation as I am one of those people who prides herself on being free of religious jingoism.

Now to your point. I beg to disagree wholeheartedly that ARABS had anything to do with the accounting system practiced by the old Roman empire. First of all, the scholar Muhammed ibn Musa Khwarizmi of whom your link refers to isn't even of Arab origin. He was a Persian, from the area known as Iran today. Secondly, Khwarizmi was influenced by the accounting practices of the Hindus which he seems to have merely regurgitated. His book "Kitāb al-Jamʿ wa-l-tafrīq bi-ḥisāb al-Hind", literally translated to mean "Book of addition and subtraction according to the Hindu calculation " is based on the use of Indian numerals. Since the Arab with their unending quest for land expansion, invaded enlightened empires, they formed a habit of copying works of the lands they invade and translating them into Arabic. Still not to digress, please note that Khwarizmi was not Arab, and he cannot even be said to have been wholly responsible for developing the number "0". He, like most Arabic scholars simply took the knowledge already in existence in the so called "pagan" lands like Babylon, Sumeria, India, Egypt and so many others, and literally "ran" with it.

Then to your claim that Arab influence is responsible for Rome's accounting. Please let us not be found guilty of twisting history. You see, accounting practices in the old Roman empire was developed during the reign of emperor Augustus. Please allow me share a part of this history below,

[b]The Roman historians Suetonius and Cassius Dio record that in 23 BC, Augustus prepared a rationarium (account) which listed public revenues, the amounts of cash in the aerarium (treasury), in the provincial fisci (tax officials), and in the hands of the publicani (public contractors); and that it included the names of the freedmen and slaves from whom a detailed account could be obtained. The closeness of this information to the executive authority of the emperor is attested by Tacitus' statement that it was written out by Augustus himself.

Records of cash, commodities, and transactions were kept scrupulously by military personnel of the Roman army. An account of small cash sums received over a few days at the fort of Vindolanda circa 110 CE shows that the fort could compute revenues in cash on a daily basis, perhaps from sales of surplus supplies or goods manufactured in the camp, items dispensed to slaves such as cervesa (beer) and clavi caligares (nails for boots), as well as commodities bought by individual soldiers. The basic needs of the fort were met by a mixture of direct production, purchase and requisition; in one letter, a request for money to buy 5,000 modii (measures) of braces (a cereal used in brewing) shows that the fort bought provisions for a considerable number of people.

The Heroninos Archive is the name given to a huge collection of papyrus documents, mostly letters, but also including a fair number of accounts, which come from Roman Egypt in 3rd century CE. The bulk of the documents relate to the running of a large, private estate[14] is named after Heroninos because he was phrontistes (Koine Greek: manager) of the estate which had a complex and standarised system of accounting which was followed by all its local farm managers. Each administrator on each sub-division of the estate drew up his own little accounts, for the day-to-day running of the estate, payment of the workforce, production of crops, the sale of produce, the use of animals, and general expenditure on the staff. This information was then summarized as pieces of papyrus scroll into one big yearly account for each particular sub—division of the estate. Entries were arranged by sector, with cash expenses and gains extrapolated from all the different sectors. Accounts of this kind gave the owner the opportunity to take better economic decisions because the information was purposefully selected and arranged.[/b]

, Now, the above shows accounting practices were in place without the influence of Khwarizmi's "influence". While I do not doubt that the Arabs by translating the works of the empires they invaded into Arabic, were able to help Arab empires grow. I do not subscribe to the Arab propaganda that either their race or their religion brought advancement to the human race.

As for the issue of the Knights Templar, I have read, researched over and over and I know for a fact that controversy abounds in Judaism, Christianity, Islam and every other religion that has been in place before those three religions. Your link like several other links offers a twisted version of history. I do not have the patience to go through the discourse of whether Europe, the M.E or Africa is responsible for the development of mankind, but by virtue of my educational training and study of religion and civilizations, I know for a fact that every subsequent religion or civilization merely borrows from the same Pre-existing ones they sought to destroy or wipe out. It will be ignorant to even assume that ancient civilizations like Greece, Rome, Troy, Mesopotamia and several others were influenced by Islamic practices of mathematics or accounting when Islam only came 2500 years after Judaism and 700 years after Christianity. Did Islam have its own share of ground breaking discoveries? Probably. Was it responsible for teaching Rome accounting, NO.

As for the topic of Sanusi's plan. Knowing that we belong to a multi-religious, multi-ethnic society, I think that the issue be revised by the CBN chief as it is not feasible and will only make it clear that the North is hell bent of Islamizing Nigeria. With the current anti North Islamophobia that is fast eating into the psychological make up of the Nigerian society, this is the last thing Sanusi should be caught doing. It shows gross disrespect for other religions in the country. We are still grappling with the issue of a secular Nigeria belonging to the OIC. Nigeria will only move ahead when we put religion second to our national development and unity. So, that is my take on the matter.

koruji:

@ziccoit
See how you are? The bigot here is someone who is excluding the citizens of a nation from a banking system because of religion. Just so I don't misunderstand you, since we all know conventional banking and you defined NIFI below, can you answer the following questions:

1. What is the difference between NIFI and Islamic Banking System?
2. What does it mean to be Sharia-Compliant?

The following statement of yours is not clear: Quote: "If you are not comfortable with why Islam should have a system of banking, request for a system to be started according to what you believe in. Nothing bad in having a Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Sango, etc banking system. Sit down and formulate the financial principles as entrenched in your faith instead of playing bigotry. At least, we are in democracy."

You seem to be suggesting (perhaps taking it way farther than Sanusi) that this is actually to create a religion-based banking system. If so, the kind of danger I pointed to Ndu_chuks in my above write-up is already in the works. Imagine what happens when someone that doesn't even understand English, talkless of interpreting the law, is told that that the system of banking is supposed to be Sharia-Compliant.

A few months ago, the Sharia courts tried to extend their jurisdiction to the internet by banning muslims from writing anything disparaging about Sharia - because people that were unjustly treated by a sharia judge took to facebook to present their complaints to the world (something about being forced to take off a T-Shirt in Sharia Court). These are the kind of ridiculous stuff that can happen when erudite people glibly put in place laws that extremist could easily exploit!!!

Sorry for coming very late. I was held incommunicado by PHCN power supply that is as epileptic as ever. Going straight to the business at hand, the first and the second lines in your comment above didn't go at pal with my thought. There is nowhere a non-Muslim would be discriminated against if he/she is ready to abide by the principles of the system. What is more, all the rules and regulations are what a straight thinker, a gentleman, a clean businessman will quickly embrace because, they don't interfere with the bases of your faiths.

NIFI; is just one aspect of Islamic banking, it is just a branch. Nobody wants to care how you spend your money.

Islamic Banking- Is a system that goes beyond non-interest, you borrow money at non-interest, you involve the bank in every step of your business and the money will be used for what it is borrowed. You can't transact in some businesses which are termed unlawful in Islamic contest eg borrow to lend people at interest, prostitution, hurdling of goods and services, over profiting, liquors etc. There is a lot to it more than presented here.

Is not a religious based system as it is opened to everybody no matter the faith and beliefs.You only abide by the rules that don't remove the very reasons of you being a non-Muslim.

virgo:

Thank you so much for your link. Obviously, you cannot be held guilty for an ideology propounded by a group, so I understand your position completely. However, I am of the humble opinion that the Arab/Jewish/or European propaganda to spread falsehoods just to promote their ideologies should not be swallowed hook, line and sinker. I have come across arguments like your own and frankly I think Africans, irrespective of their religious affiliations should never allow themselves to be brainwashed into accepting with complete resignation that either of the two main religions on the continent which was foisted on them through slavery, is without its intrigues, lies and drama. Still, allow me to point out that you got History completely wrong and my disagreeing with you has nothing to do with my religious affiliation as I am one of those people who prides herself on being free of religious jingoism.

Now to your point. I beg to disagree wholeheartedly that ARABS had anything to do with the accounting system practiced by the old Roman empire. First of all, the scholar Muhammed ibn Musa Khwarizmi of whom your link refers to isn't even of Arab origin. He was a Persian, from the area known as Iran today. Secondly, Khwarizmi was influenced by the accounting practices of the Hindus which he seems to have merely regurgitated. His book "Kitāb al-Jamʿ wa-l-tafrīq bi-ḥisāb al-Hind", literally translated to mean "Book of addition and subtraction according to the Hindu calculation " is based on the use of Indian numerals. Since the Arab with their unending quest for land expansion, invaded enlightened empires, they formed a habit of copying works of the lands they invade and translating them into Arabic. Still not to digress, please note that Khwarizmi was not Arab, and he cannot even be said to have been wholly responsible for developing the number "0". He, like most Arabic scholars simply took the knowledge already in existence in the so called "pagan" lands like Babylon, Sumeria, India, Egypt and so many others, and literally "ran" with it.

Then to your claim that Arab influence is responsible for Rome's accounting. Please let us not be found guilty of twisting history. You see, accounting practices in the old Roman empire was developed during the reign of emperor Augustus. Please allow me share a part of this history below,

[b]The Roman historians Suetonius and Cassius Dio record that in 23 BC, Augustus prepared a rationarium (account) which listed public revenues, the amounts of cash in the aerarium (treasury), in the provincial fisci (tax officials), and in the hands of the publicani (public contractors); and that it included the names of the freedmen and slaves from whom a detailed account could be obtained. The closeness of this information to the executive authority of the emperor is attested by Tacitus' statement that it was written out by Augustus himself.

Records of cash, commodities, and transactions were kept scrupulously by military personnel of the Roman army. An account of small cash sums received over a few days at the fort of Vindolanda circa 110 CE shows that the fort could compute revenues in cash on a daily basis, perhaps from sales of surplus supplies or goods manufactured in the camp, items dispensed to slaves such as cervesa (beer) and clavi caligares (nails for boots), as well as commodities bought by individual soldiers. The basic needs of the fort were met by a mixture of direct production, purchase and requisition; in one letter, a request for money to buy 5,000 modii (measures) of braces (a cereal used in brewing) shows that the fort bought provisions for a considerable number of people.

The Heroninos Archive is the name given to a huge collection of papyrus documents, mostly letters, but also including a fair number of accounts, which come from Roman Egypt in 3rd century CE. The bulk of the documents relate to the running of a large, private estate[14] is named after Heroninos because he was phrontistes (Koine Greek: manager) of the estate which had a complex and standarised system of accounting which was followed by all its local farm managers. Each administrator on each sub-division of the estate drew up his own little accounts, for the day-to-day running of the estate, payment of the workforce, production of crops, the sale of produce, the use of animals, and general expenditure on the staff. This information was then summarized as pieces of papyrus scroll into one big yearly account for each particular sub—division of the estate. Entries were arranged by sector, with cash expenses and gains extrapolated from all the different sectors. Accounts of this kind gave the owner the opportunity to take better economic decisions because the information was purposefully selected and arranged.[/b]

, Now, the above shows accounting practices were in place without the influence of Khwarizmi's "influence". While I do not doubt that the Arabs by translating the works of the empires they invaded into Arabic, were able to help Arab empires grow. I do not subscribe to the Arab propaganda that either their race or their religion brought advancement to the human race.

As for the issue of the Knights Templar, I have read, researched over and over and I know for a fact that controversy abounds in Judaism, Christianity, Islam and every other religion that has been in place before those three religions. Your link like several other links offers a twisted version of history. I do not have the patience to go through the discourse of whether Europe, the M.E or Africa is responsible for the development of mankind, but by virtue of my educational training and study of religion and civilizations, I know for a fact that every subsequent religion or civilization merely borrows from the same Pre-existing ones they sought to destroy or wipe out. It will be ignorant to even assume that ancient civilizations like Greece, Rome, Troy, Mesopotamia and several others were influenced by Islamic practices of mathematics or accounting when Islam only came 2500 years after Judaism and 700 years after Christianity. Did Islam have its own share of ground breaking discoveries? Probably. Was it responsible for teaching Rome accounting, NO.

As for the topic of Sanusi's plan. Knowing that we belong to a multi-religious, multi-ethnic society, I think that the issue be revised by the CBN chief as it is not feasible and will only make it clear that the North is hell bent of Islamizing Nigeria. With the current anti North Islamophobia that is fast eating into the psychological make up of the Nigerian society, this is the last thing Sanusi should be caught doing. It shows gross disrespect for other religions in the country. We are still grappling with the issue of a secular Nigeria belonging to the OIC. Nigeria will only move ahead when we put religion second to our national development and unity. So, that is my take on the matter.

I knew your question was a bait to build a platform to assert your opinions. Okay, the man who explained Algebra to our part of the world was Persian but you cannot deny that he was Muslim and learnt a lot from Arab as well as other scholars, even his name and title of his book shows that. Google and read about the Arabic traders and their Caravans. How did they keep records, Were they literate and numerate? What is the dark ages in the history of Medieval Europe? What was the state of Islam when Europe was in the dark ages. I have material you can refer to. It might not convince you, but at least you will acknowledge that I am not making wild assertions. I consider you an intellectual peer, I would really like us to have this and other debates one-on-one. Is there a platform you are comfortable with that we can connect on. The material I have I do not want to release here just like the Americans do not want to release the Photos of Osama bin Ladin's death. It would not change the mind of Skeptics but would be misconstrued by those who have motives for doing so. I do not have the time at the moment, later!

maclatunji:

I knew your question was a bait to build a platform to assert your opinions. Okay, the man who explained Algebra to our part of the world was Persian but you cannot deny that he was Muslim and learnt a lot from Arab as well as other scholars, even his name and title of his book shows that. Google and read about the Arabic traders and their Caravans. How did they keep records, Were they literate and numerate? What is the dark ages in the history of Medieval Europe? What was the state of Islam when Europe was in the dark ages. I have material you can refer to. It might not convince you, but at least you will acknowledge that I am not making wild assertions. I consider you an intellectual peer, I would really like us to have this and other debates one-on-one. Is there a platform you are comfortable with that we can connect on. The material I have I do not want to release here just like the American's do not want to release the Photos of Osama bin Ladin's death. It would not change the mind of Skeptics but would be misconstrued by those who have motives for doing so. I do not have the time at the moment, later!

I had no intention of baiting you in order to assert my opinion. Just my two cents on what I know to be history. I have already gone through this "dark ages" discussion with someone else here on NL, and frankly I am done with it. Yet, as for one of your questions about the illiteracy/literacy of Arab traders. Allow me to state that before Islam, Arabia was not as developed as it was when Islam entered into the picture and conquests of other lands began. Empires like Persia and Egypt with already developed civilizations helped the Arabs a whole lot upon their conquests of those lands.Merely transferring the knowledge of ancient civilization into Arabic texts does not give them claim to that knowledge. I have always disagreed with bogus claims and half truths, but then again, you are entitled to your opinion and what you hold to be the truth. My stand has always been that no religion or race has ever fully developed without copying or borrowing from another one.

Anyway, thank you for wanting to share your material with me. I am more than grateful for your offer, but I am sure it is near impossible to get on another platform to continue this conversation. Sometimes I get numb from repeating myself over and over again.

@ziccoit
Thanks for your response, it gives me a better view of what is involved. Here is the issue I see, and I believe it is why the implementation of "Islamic Banking" in Europe concentrated on the NIFI part. The other parts that involve following the trail of the money & monitoring its use:

1) Has religious undertones that could be dangerous down the line;
2) It would be very difficult to enforce

These lead to two consequences:
1) It leaves the door open, as I have being saying, for REAL extremists who have no understanding of the spirit of the law to begin enforcing an extreme version of it down the line. In a nation already in the throes of periodical upheavals with so much religious undercurrents it is not only foolhardy, but downright dangerous for a public official to start inserting religious elements into what ought to be secular matters. If those of us with access to education can be easily taken by the mention of "Sharia-Compliance" then there is trouble ahead when this gets into the general populace.

2) A law that is unenforceable often proves worse than if no such law were made - because it tends to generate perverse consequences. In this context, what is likely to happen is that people would take advantage of the non-interest nature of these banks, but merrily go on investing the fund in any kind of business they desire. We already have 1000s of laws that are not being enforced, why add another, especially one with so much religion attached. If anyone disputes that this is what will happen just look at how mirrors that are used to move money around by muslims and non-muslims alike in today's system. That is not going to change.

In addition, if these "Islamic Banks" borrow money from the CBN or other banks does it mean that those banks would not be able to collect interest on their money?

Basically, it seems that these proposed "Islamic Banks" are like joint ventures (with their business areas defined by agreement - in this case according to "Sharia" law). Apart from joint venture funding, the only other source of funding would be the CBN, which either means that they pay interest to the CBN or the CBN becomes a part of the bank - getting itself into commercial activities. This is not desirable for a nation that really wants to develop rapidly in my opinion.

The CBN should just put in place NIFI and forget about all these other provisions. In the alternative, the CBN could make provisions for both NIFI and the "Sharia-Compliant" Islamic Banks. In that case, it is my prediction that for the "Sharia-Compliant" Islamic Banks to follow their own rules, they would have to operate as small autonomous units - more like community banks as this appears to be the only case where the regional scope is small enough for the "Sharia" rules to be enforceable.

Otherwise, this would turn out to be a total sham, and a potentially dangerous sham at that.

ziccoit:

Sorry for coming very late. I was held incommunicado by PHCN power supply that is as epileptic as ever. Going straight to the business at hand, the first and the second lines in your comment above didn't go at pal with my thought. There is nowhere a non-Muslim would be discriminated against if he/she is ready to abide by the principles of the system. What is more, all the rules and regulations are what a straight thinker, a gentleman, a clean businessman will quickly embrace because, they don't interfere with the bases of your faiths.

NIFI; is just one aspect of Islamic banking, it is just a branch. Nobody wants to care how you spend your money.

Islamic Banking- Is a system that goes beyond non-interest, you borrow money at non-interest, you involve the bank in every step of your business and the money will be used for what it is borrowed. You can't transact in some businesses which are termed unlawful in Islamic contest eg borrow to lend people at interest, prostitution, hurdling of goods and services, over profiting, liquors etc. There is a lot to it more than presented here.

Is not a religious based system as it is opened to everybody no matter the faith and beliefs.You only abide by the rules that don't remove the very reasons of you being a non-Muslim.     

@maclatunji
Try to take the time to understand what I am getting at. Basically, the point is that if these "Islamic Banking" rules have no religious requirements, why don't we save a lot of trouble and remove the "Islamic legislation" label.

When you attach "Sharia-Compliant" and "Islamic Banking" and "Islamic Legislation" to something don't be surprised if non-muslims think you are sneaking in religion, but more importantly that a majority of the muslim populace, who may either have no time or the capacity to dig into the law to find that Ah ah it is not about religion part, would think that it is exactly about religion.

What I am looking at is down the road when someone far removed from the formulation and knowledge of this law begins to interpret the above three phrases "religiously".

The CBN governor and his policy formulators need to think this over very well.

maclatunji: @bolded, so because the English Common law is one of the major sources of Nigerian law, I am now an Englishman without a shadow of a doubt, abi? It is reasoning like yours that makes our politicians take all of us for granted. Some of us simply cannot make meaning out of anything. Anyway, the keyword here is that you are ignorant and that is the truth.

@maclatunji
Nobody asked YOU to come up with the "FG paying for Hajj" example, and then come back to agree that the FG doesn't need to be paying for anybody's pilmigrage. If you claim you didn't backtrack that is all well and good.

It is not jealousy, it is the lack of equity & justice in paying for muslims to proceed on Hajj, without paying [size=14pt]equal amounts for something else for Christians [/size] that lead to somebody coming up with Jerusalem. It is OUR money not muslim, christian, traditionalists money. If we are in business together you cannot sell our products, then proceed to set aside Hajj money for yourself. I will have to take an equal cut out of our proceeds before we decide what happens to the rest - it is not jealousy - IT IS A RIGHT. Get it!!!

Kenimani ko - Ken Nnamani ni 

When did OBJ become a mouth-piece for anybody other than himself?

maclatunji: See, the fact that I am not around does not mean you should put words in my mouth (or hands as the case may be). I never backtracked on calling Christians jealous for wanting to go to Jerusalem, I only said it is not economical on the nation's finances and that making the country prosperous economically would make more sense so that each individual can decide to visit wherever he chooses. Obasanjo, a Christian former President told the whole world on National Television that there is nothing like Christian Pilgrimage in your religion- if you are angry with that point visit the man at Ota and have a frank discussion, you can post the video for us here.

I will say this again, it is the Kenimani syndrome that is disturbing folks like you!

Regarding the current "state of affairs" I typed in my earlier posts. I meant that Islam has given a lot to the world in terms of knowledge, culture and development. The fact that we are even debating this topic shows the failure of some Muslim leaders in the past to solidify its principles in terms of politics and economics especially when they were in positions of great wealth and power.

Sharia-compliance does not require you to be a Muslim, but you would be subject to Islamic legislation. The 2 are different things. Once again, lobby for your own Non-Interest Charging Financial Institutions instead of crying wolf over an already established Islamic banking institutional framework.