hupernikao:


Let me try to clear this for you.

The Hebrew 8 narrative were taken from Moses writings. Moses wrote both what you called old covenant and new covenant.

I said earlier that you have to ask yourself when ever you read a NT text, ask yourself where the writer was reading in OT for him to be able to write what he wrote because no NT writer wrote from a clean or empty slate. They wrote from reading the scriptures (OT).

So where was the writer of Hebrew writing from? Of course, Moses, because that very text was taken from Ezekiel and Jeremiah who were students of Moses.

Ezekiel 36:26-28
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God


Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people


They both read Moses. Their prophecies wasn't from an empty slate. It was taken directly from Moses spirit and inspiration.


Now let me give you where they copied it from in Moses writing. It was a copy of Moses text that they explained.

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live

That is what Moses preached to his audience. That is what you called new covenant but Moses preached same to them. It was preached as far back as Adam's time.

Observe Moses preached circumcision of the heart, and then circumcision of the flesh. He preached both.

Moses called the receiving of the spirit as circumcision of the heart.

Ezekiel called it new spirit.
Hebrew writer too.

It's the same.

Observe the word "that you may live" as uses by Moses. That's what NT writer explain as eternal life.

Moses preached it.

That is its through circumcision of the heart (in NT language: receiving of the spirit), that man will live (in NT language: man receives life eterna

That means, once again, no inspired doctrine you see in the NT that doesn't originate from Moses. Including what Jesus and Paul taught. Anyone who must stand to teach or prophesied by God, must take from Moses spirit. Remember the 70 elders?


So, I implore you to take your time to read Deut 30 and all of Moses as I said before and juxtapose with all the teaching in the NT.

May God grants us more understanding.

I believe I should ask you at this point, are there any differences in the message Jesus Christ taught and the teachings of Moses?

Myer:


Why did the Pharisees and Saducees and reject him?

He is a "nobody"...

hupernikao:


You are the one who said this. This isn't true as per Jesus teaching.

Jesus taught exactly what Moses taught. Same scriptures. The issue were with the Pharisee.

You must understand that the problem in Jesus's days were interpretation problem not a documentation problem. Jesus never negate what Moses wrote. He only explained them. The Pharisee never negate what Moses wrote, they only had wrong interpretation.

This must be clear.

They all agreed the scriptures is true and same but interpretation was their issues. Jesus spoke Moses mind nothing else.

Observe, Jesus relied on Moses words and teaching to overcome temptation. All the scriptures Jesus quoted in temptation were Moses doctrine.

Think about that.

Duet 8:3
that man shall (C)not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

Jesus never taught what Moses taught....

God told Moses

"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of slavery and out of the house of bandage DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GOD BEFORE ME..

But Jesus is teaching
No one comes to the father except through me..


Conflict there already..

Steep:
The books of Moses were not written by Moses alone. Isreal keep records of their national history, this is done by the scribes which through oral narration.

concerning the private conversation, these were gotten through oral narration, Adam and Eve would have told their children the story of their life and this would have passed on from generation to generation.

Jesus himself explained the scripture concerning himself to his disciples might have heard Jesus prayer during his passion.

Give me examples of those scriptures...please..

sonmvayina:


He is a "nobody"...

That's a reason.
Also his teachings were considered blasphemous to the teachings and laws of Moses.
Also he introduced new covenant.
He also would forgive people's sins as if he were God.

So considering these reasons it's difficult to blame the Pharisees and Saducees for not accepting him.

sonmvayina:


Jesus never taught what Moses taught....

God told Moses

"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of slavery and out of the house of bandage DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GOD BEFORE ME..

But Jesus is teaching
No one comes to the father except through me..


Conflict there already..

You may need to buttress your point for clarity. How does the two information you wrote contradict and how does that prove Jesus never taught Moses?

Myer:


That's a reason.
Also his teachings were considered blasphemous to the teachings and laws of Moses.
Also he introduced new covenant.
He also would forgive people's sins as if he were God.

So considering these reasons it's difficult to blame the Pharisees and Saducees for not accepting him.

Bro, Pharisees never taught Moses. Take the scriptures on face value. Jesus said they weren't teaching Moses, that they don't even believe Moses. You must do all you can to believe that, because that's the word of God. You need to allow that thought to flow from the scriptures.

The Pharisees were just like Israel, they never believed Moses they rejected his words, they needed their own. That rejection of Jesus is same as what happened to Moses with the Israelite. They never believed God. They just want to enjoy miracles but not ready for obedience.

Don't you wonder how Jesus used Moses extensively to teach.

Even in temptation he quoted Moses in all the 3 temptations to overcome temptation.

yet you said he didnt teach what Moses taught. So why used Moses materials, patents, Moses words. We can safely claim Moses wrote all the books of the Bible if you read the Bible as it should. All writers were by extension Moses disciples. You will have to embrace that Bro. It's the word of God.

Myer:


I believe I should ask you at this point, are there any differences in the message Jesus Christ taught and the teachings of Moses?

..


Jesus taught EXACTLY what Moses taught. No difference, same as Paul. The people, audience, places, language, time might differs but the inspiration and purpose are the same.


This is same as prophets and all apostles. They all used Moses words. Some provided extended explanation and interpretation but the basis is still Moses doctrine.

Like I said, no single inspired text of the scriptures that can't be traced to Moses as the originator. He wrote extensive and taught what will last eternity. Hence even you as you study your Bible today, you are studying Moses actually. He is the custodian of the message of Christ, hence he could never have had different doctrine from that of Christ.

Myer:


Please you have to question your theology if it continues to say one thing, while the bible says
another thing.

Theology is when you try to see God's salvation plan in every event of the scriptures. Good. It started since God promised that Adam's son would crush the head of the serpeant and it would bruise his heel.

But what the bible says concerning God's covenants however is clear;
There was an old covenant and there is now a new covenant. Jeremiah 31 prophesied this and Hebrews 8 confirms and expounds on it.
In Jeremiah there was a promise of a new covenant in the future.
In Christ that prophesy was fulfilled and the new covenant was established as expounded in Hebrews.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make pa new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when qI took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, rthough I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 sFor this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: sI will put my law within them, and I will write it ton their hearts. uAnd I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ vfor they shall all know me, wfrom the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For xI will forgive their iniquity, and yI will remember their sin no more.”

Bro, but I showed you that Jeremiah was only saying what Moses said exactly. Read it nah.

Jeremiah was Moses students. What he learnt in the school of ministry is Moses.

What Jeremiah was preaching was circumcision of the heart, Moses preached that first.

Deut 30:6
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live

Is this different from what Jeremiah said?

Please read the two together.


You need to stop reading Bible and prophecies in isolation. That's where the problem is. It seems you feel the prophets and apostles just sat down somewhere and then God revealed why they need to write without reading the Bible.

No single prophet can even be taken as a prophet of God without studying the bible. And when you say the Bible in their time, that's already Moses. How then will they say a different thing from Moses. That will be F9 parallel.

And lastly, I am not presenting my theology, I am presenting to you the Bible, what the Bible teaches. You will need to outline your concerns and scriptures that is making you to speak of Moses as Old covenant and we will clear them all.

Moses is a new testament preacher sent ahead of time. That is the story of the bible.

hupernikao:


You may need to buttress your point for clarity. How does the two information you wrote contradict and how does that prove Jesus never taught Moses?

His point is that Jesus taught that he was both the son of the God and also the Father in human flesh.
Hence he referred to himself as a God. Which is why Pentecostals and Trinitarians often worship Jesus as God.

hupernikao:


Bro, Pharisees never taught Moses. Take the scriptures on face value. Jesus said they weren't teaching Moses, that they don't even believe Moses. You must do all you can to believe that, because that's the word of God. You need to allow that thought to flow from the scriptures.

The Pharisees were just like Israel, they never believed Moses they rejected his words, they needed their own. That rejection of Jesus is same as what happened to Moses with the Israelite. They never believed God. They just want to enjoy miracles but not ready for obedience.

Don't you wonder how Jesus used Moses extensively to teach.

Even in temptation he quoted Moses in all the 3 temptations to overcome temptation.

yet you said he didnt teach what Moses taught. So why used Moses materials, patents, Moses words. We can safely claim Moses wrote all the books of the Bible if you read the Bible as it should. All writers were by extension Moses disciples. You will have to embrace that Bro. It's the word of God.

The problem is that you are now a victim of your own eisegesis.
Jesus never agreed with the Pharisees because his doctrine was different from theirs. So when he said they did not believe Moses, he was simply making a point.

It was the same Jesus that acknowledged that the Pharisees were the teachers of the Law.
They taught what Moses taught but they also did not practise all that they preached which was the point Jesus made when he said they did not believe Moses.

Matthew 23:2-4
The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so  do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practe.
4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear and lay them on people's shoulders they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.


If you notice, I take my time post scriptural references that 100% back up my points.

Just like I explained to you and quoted the scriptural references of Jeremiah and Hebrews where the bible stated that God himself promised to give a new covenant. Is it that you do not agree that God said through Moses, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Joel etc that he will give a new covenant?

Because it is clearly stated in these verses.
Moses that you quotet in cluding the other prophets simply prophesied the event that would happen in the future, that God will give them a new covenant.

And in Christ the prophecy came to pass and the new covenant was given.

By the way, there are so many differences between the old and new covenant.

1. Mode of Worship
Moses taught that God must be worshipped in a physical temple. Jesus taught that we are the temple of God as long as the Holyspirit dwells in you.
And no longer would anyone have to go to Jerusalem but those who worship the father, worship in spirit and truth. John 4:24
Which explains reason number 2.

2. Sabbath
Moses taught that Saturday (the day God supposedly rested) should be declared work-free and even a sin to perform any work on sabbath.
Jesus taught that he is the Lord of Sabbath and it is ok to do the work of his father such as healing, etc.
And eventually this would lead to the changing of Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday (the day Jesus supposedly resurrected). Since Sabbath no longer holds any meaning in Chisstianity.

3. About Sin and Forgiveness.
Moses taught that only God can forgive sins. In fact he created several atonement for various degrees of sin.
Jesus taught that He could forgive sins and even taught that every Christian can forgive sins. John 20:23

4. About the Temple
Moses received the detailed template of the temple supposedly from God,from the length, breath, with, height and even the weight. He received instruction as to the 3 chambers-outer court, inner court and Holy of Holies. And the High priest that could conduct certain rights.
The death of Jesus supposedly tore the veil of the holy of holies. And by this the veil was open. Any one could not gain access to the Holy of holies without being a high priest.

5. About Israel and the Gentiles
In the old covenant Moses received, God separated the Jews from the Gentiles (the rest if the world including you and I).
But in Christ, there is no dichotomy. We are all children of God once we place our faith in Christ.

There are certainly much more differences, but as time would permit, this is all I can share for now.

So please, do not deny the obvious truth. Hebrews 8 even confirms this, there was an old covenant which also prophesied the coming of a new covenant.
And the new covenant is in Christ.

hupernikao:


You may need to buttress your point for clarity. How does the two information you wrote contradict and how does that prove Jesus never taught Moses?

God forbid his people from going through any God to get to him. No mediator or intermediary. God wants us to come come to him directly. He is our father. We don't need any middle man. But Jesus is saying that no one cones to the father except through him. Both can't be right. It can't be same God.

Moses taught that God is one but and no body beside him, but the gospel authors are saying Jesus was with God.

Both can't be right..
Compare Isaiah 45: 1-7

45: 1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

With John 1::1-7

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe

Myer:


That's a reason.
Also his teachings were considered blasphemous to the teachings and laws of Moses.
Also he introduced new covenant.
He also would forgive people's sins as if he were God.

So considering these reasons it's difficult to blame the Pharisees and Saducees for not accepting him.

Yes..

God warned them that anybody coming 5o change his Torah should be given the Ken saro wiwa treatment..

sonmvayina:


Yes..

God warned them that anybody coming 5o change his Torah should be given the Ken saro wiwa treatment..

So mentally enslaved that he trivializes the death of a decent countryman all in veneration of foreign mythology.

A proper treatment would be the one given to the Jews by the Nazis.

sonmvayina:


God forbid his people from going through any God to get to him. No mediator or intermediary. God wants us to come come to him directly. He is our father. We don't need any middle man. But Jesus is saying that no one cones to the father except through him. Both can't be right. It can't be same God.

Moses taught that God is one but and no body beside him, but the gospel authors are saying Jesus was with God.

Both can't be right..
Compare Isaiah 45: 1-7

45: 1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

With John 1::1-7

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe

You will need to reread John well to understand him. Your explanation of John wasn't John's thought but yours. John didn't say anything different from what Moses said.

John told you the word was God. He never spoke of two persons
That is the conclusion of that statement. So how does that contradict what Moses preached? One God, who John called the word borrowing the language of the OT, "the word of God" is God.

Myer:


The problem is that you are now a victim of your own eisegesis.
Jesus never agreed with the Pharisees because his doctrine was different from theirs. So when he said they did not believe Moses, he was simply making a point.

So please, do not deny the obvious truth. Hebrews 8 even confirms this, there was an old covenant which also prophesied the coming of a new covenant.
And the new covenant is in Christ.

..

Let me make this discussion easy. When the Bible say scriptures what book/books was it referring to? I hope you know it was referring to the writings of Moses and the prophets. That was all they had in their days.

The scriptures (in Jesus day), was OT texts.

Now note.

Paul called OT text
The word of God Romans 10:17
Holy scriptures 2 Tim 3:15
Gods breath vs 16

Paul said, it CONTAINS. the explanation of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

1 Cor 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Jesus said it contain the story of his suffering and glory,

Luke 24:26
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He taught them from Moses all about his resurrection. That is Jesus used Moses notes to teach.

---

Do you know that in Jesus days, the word scriptures, will simply means the teachings of the prophets.

A simple starter, any where you see the word scriptures in the Bible first replace it with what it truly means in their time, Genesis to Malachi, the old testament writing or the teachings of the prophets.

Then explain how Jesus and the apostles taught from the teachings of the prophets without teaching what the prophet taught.

Everytime Jesus teaches, his authority is the scriptures (the teachings fo the prophets, Moses). Except you want to claim Jesus didn't use the scriptures to teach.

Myer:


So please, do not deny the obvious truth. Hebrews 8 even confirms this, there was an old covenant which also prophesied the coming of a new covenant.
And the new covenant is in Christ.

And as per the Old covenant. You are the one who is mixing things up.

What I told you was that what you called New was actually a renewal. It was called old because of Israel rejection not the covenant itself. Moses taught exactly what Jesus taught. And I have shown you the scriptures.

The rejection of Moses is what is taken as old covenants not the teaching of Moses.

Moses taught life, was that life different from what Jesus taught?

Moses was the foundation of God's promise. Jesus was only fulfilling what Israel refused to fulfill.

Not sure we can exhaust this here. Hopefully one day we will be able to see and compare things we'll. But before then know that


Moses was the preacher of the law of spirit of life and also in it we found the law of sin and death. Man then has a choice to make, either life or death. This is Moses doctrine and what Jesus preached too.

Myer:


His point is that Jesus taught that he was both the son of the God and also the Father in human flesh.
Hence he referred to himself as a God. Which is why Pentecostals and Trinitarians often worship Jesus as God.

Jesus isn't worship as God. He is God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5u6ulYmd3c

hupernikao:


Jesus isn't worship as God. He is God.

Exactly why the Pharisees considered him blasphemous. Cos it contradicts the teachings of Moses.
Bear in mind that it sounds normal to is today to refer to yourself even as son of God talk less of referring to yourself as God. But before Jesus it was blasphemous.

hupernikao:
..

Let me make this discussion easy. When the Bible say scriptures what book/books was it referring to? I hope you know it was referring to the writings of Moses and the prophets. That was all they had in their days.

The scriptures (in Jesus day), was OT texts.

Now note.

Paul called OT text
The word of God Romans 10:17
Holy scriptures 2 Tim 3:15
Gods breath vs 16

Paul said, it CONTAINS. the explanation of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

1 Cor 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Jesus said it contain the story of his suffering and glory,

Luke 24:26
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He taught them from Moses all about his resurrection. That is Jesus used Moses notes to teach.

---

Do you know that in Jesus days, the word scriptures, will simply means the teachings of the prophets.

A simple starter, any where you see the word scriptures in the Bible first replace it with what it truly means in their time, Genesis to Malachi, the old testament writing or the teachings of the prophets.

Then explain how Jesus and the apostles taught from the teachings of the prophets without teaching what the prophet taught.

Everytime Jesus teaches, his authority is the scriptures (the teachings fo the prophets, Moses). Except you want to claim Jesus didn't use the scriptures to teach.

You're distgressing.
This is why I say theologians only complicate the simple bible.

Scripture simply means the writings in a holy book.
Of cos in the days of Jesus it referred to the old testament.
Today both the old and the new can be referred to as scriptures.

When Paul, Apollos and Jesus explained through the Laws and Prophets about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, they simply explained the scriptures that prophesied it.

This discussion isn't about the new testament dropping from heaven without any relationship with the old testament. We know it is a continuation of it.

This discussion is about the simple fact that there was an old testament and now there is a new testament.
Testament in case you don'tknow is just synonym for covenant. So those who canonized the bible already made it easy when they divided it into 2 sections.

In one of my previous replies, I shared some of the major differences between the old testament and teachings of Moses and the new testament and teachings of Christ and the Apostles. I was surprised you ignored that.

By the way, there are so many differences between the old and new covenant.

1. Mode of Worship
Moses taught that God must be worshipped in a physical temple. Jesus taught that we are the temple of God as long as the Holyspirit dwells in you.
And no longer would anyone have to go to Jerusalem but those who worship the father, worship in spirit and truth. John 4:24
Which explains reason number 2.

2. Sabbath
Moses taught that Saturday (the day God supposedly rested) should be declared work-free and even a sin to perform any work on sabbath.
Jesus taught that he is the Lord of Sabbath and it is ok to do the work of his father such as healing, etc.
And eventually this would lead to the changing of Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday (the day Jesus supposedly resurrected). Since Sabbath no longer holds any meaning in Chisstianity.

3. About Sin and Forgiveness.
Moses taught that only God can forgive sins. In fact he created several atonement for various degrees of sin.
Jesus taught that He could forgive sins and even taught that every Christian can forgive sins. John 20:23

4. About the Temple
Moses received the detailed template of the temple supposedly from God,from the length, breath, with, height and even the weight. He received instruction as to the 3 chambers-outer court, inner court and Holy of Holies. And the High priest that could conduct certain rights.
The death of Jesus supposedly tore the veil of the holy of holies. And by this the veil was open. Any one could not gain access to the Holy of holies without being a high priest.

5. About Israel and the Gentiles
In the old covenant Moses received, God separated the Jews from the Gentiles (the rest if the world including you and I).
But in Christ, there is no dichotomy. We are all children of God once we place our faith in Christ.

There are certainly much more differences, but as time would permit, this is all I can share for now.

hupernikao:


And as per the Old covenant. You are the one who is mixing things up.

What I told you was that what you called New was actually a renewal. It was called old because of Israel rejection not the covenant itself. Moses taught exactly what Jesus taught. And I have shown you the scriptures.

The rejection of Moses is what is taken as old covenants not the teaching of Moses.

Moses taught life, was that life different from what Jesus taught?

Moses was the foundation of God's promise. Jesus was only fulfilling what Israel refused to fulfill.

Not sure we can exhaust this here. Hopefully one day we will be able to see and compare things we'll. But before then know that


Moses was the preacher of the law of spirit of life and also in it we found the law of sin and death. Man then has a choice to make, either life or death. This is Moses doctrine and what Jesus preached too.

If I may ask, are you humble enough to accept and admit if you find out you're wrong?

Cos on this issue of Old and new covenants, it's been clearly stated in the scriptures I shared with you both from the old testament and news testament.

I believe we have exhausted that discussion already.

Myer:


If I may ask, are you humble enough to accept and admit if you find out you're wrong?

Cos on this issue of Old and new covenants, it's been clearly stated in the scriptures I shared with you both from the old testament and news testament.

I believe we have exhausted that discussion already.

Bro, if you are saying what the scriptures say, I will fully admit to the scriptures. But the truth here is you aren't saying the scriptures. You gave a text and I showed you that Moses preached the same thing you pointed to. So how does Moses now become the preacher of old covenant or what is different from what Jesus preached. He taught from Moses book.

You are the one who isn't ready to admit the fact that Jesus preached using Moses book. Jesus overcame temptation using Moses notes, Jesus taught his disciples using Moses jotters. How then do you say Moses is a preacher of old covenant.


You will need to understand what old covenant really mean. You have always mix the events of covenant with the documentation.

You must clear your mind on that.

Ask yourself these simple questions.

Did Moses preach life?
Did Moses preach salvation?
Did Moses preach God's love?

When Jesus said, God so loved the word.... Should not perish but hath eternal life, who was he quoting. Who presented life and death to the Israelite in Deut 30 and taught they chose life? Is that different from what Jesus said in John 3:16? Is it different from what Paul also taught in Romans 10:7-12 Bro, read them well.

I showed you that Paul literally quoted Moses in Romans 10:7-10 (Deut 30:6-10) without editing it, speaking about christ, life and salvation. He quoted exactly what Moses taught the Israelite verbatim.

Erase your mind of thinking anyone speaks from a clean slate without the authority of the scriptures. Even Jesus used the scriptures as his authority. And when you say scriptures, it literally mean Moses.

Myer:


If I may ask, are you humble enough to accept and admit if you find out you're wrong?

Cos on this issue of Old and new covenants, it's been clearly stated in the scriptures I shared with you both from the old testament and news testament.

I believe we have exhausted that discussion already.

And if I may ask your.

What was Jesus authority in preaching and teaching doctrine? The scriptures or any other thing?

Myer:


You're distgressing.
This is why I say theologians only complicate the simple bible.

Scripture simply means the writings in a holy book.
Of cos in the days of Jesus it referred to the old testament.
Today both the old and the new can be referred to as scriptures.

When Paul, Apollos and Jesus explained through the Laws and Prophets about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, they simply explained the scriptures that prophesied it.

This discussion isn't about the new testament dropping from heaven without any relationship with the old testament. We know it is a continuation of it.

This discussion is about the simple fact that there was an old testament and now there is a new testament.
Testament in case you don'tknow is just synonym for covenant. So those who canonized the bible already made it easy when they divided it into 2 sections.

In one of my previous replies, I shared some of the major differences between the old testament and teachings of Moses and the new testament and teachings of Christ and the Apostles. I was surprised you ignored that.

Okay so let's take it gradual.

Paul and Jesus explained Christ from the law and prophets.

So, I asked were they explaining the prophets or not? Were they not explaining what the prophets taught?

If they were?

Then ask yourself, what did the prophets taught in this case? You agreed it was same as what Paul and Jesus taught. The scriptures are what Paul and Jesus taught.

So, did Jesus and Paul teach old covenant? If not, how then did the writings of the prophets became old if that was the authority Jesus and Paul relied on.

You are mixing this concept together Bro.

hupernikao:



Bro, if you are saying what the scriptures say, I will fully admit to the scriptures. But the truth here is you aren't saying the scriptures. You gave a text and I showed you that Moses preached the same thing you pointed to. So how does Moses now become the preacher of old covenant or what is different from what Jesus preached. He taught from Moses book.

You are the one who isn't ready to admit the fact that Jesus preached using Moses book. Jesus overcame temptation using Moses notes, Jesus taught his disciples using Moses jotters. How then do you say Moses is a preacher of old covenant.


You will need to understand what old covenant really mean. You have always mix the events of covenant with the documentation.

You must clear your mind on that.

Ask yourself these simple questions.

Did Moses preach life?
Did Moses preach salvation?
Did Moses preach God's love?

When Jesus said, God so loved the word.... Should not perish but hath eternal life, who was he quoting. Who presented life and death to the Israelite in Deut 30 and taught they chose life? Is that different from what Jesus said in John 3:16? Is it different from what Paul also taught in Romans 10:7-12 Bro, read them well.

I showed you that Paul literally quoted Moses in Romans 10:7-10 (Deut 30:6-10) without editing it, speaking about christ, life and salvation. He quoted exactly what Moses taught the Israelite verbatim.

Erase your mind of thinking anyone speaks from a clean slate without the authority of the scriptures. Even Jesus used the scriptures as his authority. And when you say scriptures, it literally mean Moses.

Scripture actually should mean the word of God.
And the word of God is Jesus Christ.

So even if you try to prove that Moses was quoted by Jesus and his apostles, what Moses taught was still Jesus Christ.

The point you seem not to understand and which I notice you still try to avoid is addressing the differences between the old testament and the new testament.

hupernikao:


Okay so let's take it gradual.

Paul and Jesus explained Christ from the law and prophets.

So, I asked were they explaining the prophets or not? Were they not explaining what the prophets taught?

If they were?

Then ask yourself, what did the prophets taught in this case? You agreed it was same as what Paul and Jesus taught. The scriptures are what Paul and Jesus taught.

So, did Jesus and Paul teach old covenant? If not, how then did the writings of the prophets became old if that was the authority Jesus and Paul relied on.

You are mixing this concept together Bro.

You are still trying to prove yourself to be right and the bible to be wrong.

I have given you scriptures in the bible both from the old and new testaments that clearly stated that the old testament prophesied of a new testament.

Meaning that there was an old testament and now there is a new testament.

Myer:


1. Mode of Worship
Moses taught that God must be worshipped in a physical temple. Jesus taught that we are the temple of God as long as the Holyspirit dwells in you.
And no longer would anyone have to go to Jerusalem but those who worship the father, worship in spirit and truth. John 4:24
Which explains reason number 2.

Brossss. I hope you will take time to read this. It's long but please do read.


Jesus was quoting Moses in John 4:24.

The first commandment Moses gave to the israelite was never to have a temple.

Exo 20
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven abov[/b]e, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

[b]Where do you find images of gods in Moses time? In the temple. That's where gods images are.

Moses law to Israel was never to have any resemblance of God to worship.

I will give you all the texts.

Leviticus 26:1
“You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God

Observe, he said any image. The ark was an image, a figure, hope you know.

Deuteronomy 5:8
“‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Likeness of anything in heaven. Ark in the temple was a likeness of such.

Deuteronomy 27:15
“‘Cursed be the man who makes a carved or cast metal image, an abomination to the Lord, a thing made by the hands of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen

Ark and the tabernacle were made with hands, man made. That wasn't God's plan. God's plan is to dwell in man not in ark or temple.



They rejected that. They wanted something like the heathen. They wanted to see what they worship. They wanted a temple, structure, what man hands made.

Moses gave them after they rejected what Gods intention and plan is. Which is to dwell in their heart. Their worship was to be in their heart, no image or structure or tabernacle.


Deuteronomy 6:5
and thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might

That was God's plan above. But

This is what they wanted and did below.

Exodus 32:8
They have turned aside quickly out of the way that I commanded them. They have made for themselves a golden calf and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt

It was a rejection of God's commandment. The reason the commandment was on tablet of stone. The stone is to show them that God's word was only dropping on a hardened heart. Stony heart (Heb . You will see this all through the scriptures.


Hence Moses gave them what they want, their desire, to have a structure.
A temple, a tabernacle, an ark. To worship.

This is a sign of their hardness. Not God's way.

---

Read Stephen defence about the temple.

Pleaseeeeee, read this well

Acts 7:37
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

They turned away from what Moses taught.

Below is their request.

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?


See where the story of tabernacle started from below.

43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.


It was never God's intent but their demand.

45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.


So, they carried it to the promised land.

Solomon remade it as temple. it was never God's initial plan.

Observe patiently the remaining verses.

47 But Solomon built him an house.

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Verse 48, showed you that God never dwell in those ark, tabernacle and temple. He never want them to have a structure, a man made thing to dwell.


God's plan is to dwell in the house he made by himself, the man. He created the man. Temple was man made, not God made but man was God's made.


Now see Stephen comments.

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye

He called those actions a rejection of the holyghost. The desire to have an image, structure, temple, ark was man's idea. God only worked through it to fulfill his desire at last.


Israel wasn't ready to follow God without a structure. The heathen had temples, they wanted theirs. God's plan was to dwell in them, in man.

---

Hence when Jesus was speaking about worship in spirit and indwelling of the spirit, he was referring to what Moses taught them that they rejected.

John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


No more worship in the temple, no more ark. It wasn't God's plan. Indwelling was his plan. This is what Moses first taught them that they rejected.

No image, no structure, no ark, no temple, but your heart. Moses taught this, they rejected it. And then had what they desire. God still used their weaknesses and rejection to work his will.


So, Jesus was explaining Moses directly, he was teaching God's promise exactly the way Moses taught it. No difference.

Moses never gave them a temple or tabernacle to worship, they wanted it. They rejected Moses ordinance which is God dwelling in what no man's hand made.

The given of the ark, temple was as a result of rejection of God's plan.

Myer:


You are still trying to prove yourself to be right and the bible to be wrong.

I have given you scriptures in the bible both from the old and new testaments that clearly stated that the old testament prophesied of a new testament.

Meaning that there was an old testament and now there is a new testament.

Bro, the scriptures isn't wrong, you will need to read it well to get the thought process of the writings. Moses and Jesus never contradict themselves.

hupernikao:



Moses never gave them a temple or tabernacle to worship, they wanted it. They rejected Moses ordinance which is God dwelling in what no man's hand made.

The given of the ark, temple was as a result of rejection of God's plan.

Na was oh. Which bible are you reading?
The demands of the Israelites were;;

1. A golden calf when they thought Moses was dead where as God was giving him the 10 commandments.
2. To go back to Egypt when they thought they would die in the wilderness.
3. To have a king just like the other nations.

If you say they imposed these on Moses ,I wont argue with the fact because that was clearly stated in the bible.
But they never demanded for a temple to worship God.
God called Moses to build a tent of meeting (tabernacle) where He would appear to Moses and they would commune from time to time. Exodus 25

It was God that gave Moses the dimensions and requirements to build the tabernacle to look like God's throne in heaven, comprising of the outer courts,inner court and holy of Holies. From Exodus to Leviticus, this is clearly described.

Though it was David who later decided to build God a temple but the template was from the tabernacle God instructed Moses to build.

In conclusion, no where at any point did I say Jesus did not quote Moses or the old testament.
My bone of contention has always been that you do not agree that there was a new covenant and that Jesus' teachings and the teachings of the Apostles differ from the teachings of Moses.

Another clear difference in their teachings is that Moses was a man of battle and taught the Israelites to kill both chronic sinners and also attack and kill Gentiles and take over their lands and properties.
Jesus on the other hand taught the way of Peace. He set his eyes on spiritual warfare not physical. He even prevented his disciples from fighting to save him or themselves. He taught that those who live by the sword would die by it.

I realise we have derailed the topic of this thread for too long. So let's refocus on the topic. Perhaps we will open a different thread to continue further discussion about the old and new covenants.

Myer:


Na was oh. Which bible are you reading?
The demands of the Israelites where;;

1. A golden calf when they thought Moses was dead where as God was giving him the 10 commandments.
2. To go back to Egypt when they thought they would die in the wilderness.
3. To have a king just like the other nations.

Was the golden calf not for worship? In their days, where do they hold worship of idols? If they are to continue worshiping the golden image, where will it be worshipped? Was it not going to be in the temple. A demand for golden calf is already a demand for temple of worship.

You need to read the bible with the cultural background of their days. You are reading it in isolation. How will someone in Moses days desire a god and you said he doesnt desire a tabernacle or temple.

Deuteronomy 4:15-19, 23-25
So since you saw no form of any kind on the day the LORD spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb, be careful

No form, no tabernacle, no temple. he spoke to them directly. That was God's plan. They rejected him, hence the reason they were given temple. In facts the temple was a demonstration of the veil in their heart that separate them from God. Moses as a new testament preacher never had veil separating him from God. he spoke with God face to face.

I gave you Stephen defence, go and read it again. God's desire was never a temple, Moses desire was never a temple.

Q1
If you say they imposed these on Moses ,I wont argue with the fact because that was clearly stated in the bible.
But they never demanded for a temple to worship God.
God called Moses to build a tent of meeting (tabernacle) where He would appear to Moses and they would commune from time to time. Exodus 25

So the reason for the above was clear in the bible. They never wanted God to speak to them directly. Hence what Moses preached to them, his commandment was that God wants to indwell them and speak directly to them. They rejected that. This is the reason for the temple. That is to let you know that the temple wasnt original plan of God. It was man made idea.

Hence what you are calling old covenant was a rejection of God's covenant which Moses preached. What you see in Christ was a renewal of what Moses preached. The temple was man's choice, man's rejection not God's covenant. God's covenant was to live in man. That was Moses messages and Jesus too. They both preached the same.

Q2
It was God that gave Moses the dimensions and requirements to build the tabernacle to look like God's throne in heaven, comprising of the outer courts,inner court and holy of Holies. From Exodus to Leviticus, this is clearly described.

Good, so does this not showed you that this is an image of a resemblance of things in heaven. But God warned against that in his covenant.

Deuteronomy 5:8
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

He gave them to show them their rejection. God never lived in that temple, not even for a day.

Acts 7
47 But Solomon built him an house.
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

He never had such plan. He gave them their desire, when they rejected his. That is clear in the scriptures.

Q3
Though it was David who later decided to build God a temple but the template was from the tabernacle God instructed Moses to build.

Yes, but dont loose focus on why the temple was given. They asked to see what they worship, they wanted to be like the heathen. They made a god, because they needed to worship image. In ancient world, gods are worshipped in temples. Hence by requesting for an idol/god they already request for a temple of worship but God gave them none in his covenant. Man is to be God's temple. Moses preached this to them.

The physical temple was a demonstration of the hardness of their heart. It was God showing them, that i gave you up to your own desire. It was a sign of rejecting God. Same as the tablet of stones. Every other writers interpreted it as the heart of the disobedient man (stony heart). God's law was to be in their hearts but they are hardened (stony heart) hence he gave them to their desires. God's covenant (dwelling in man) is now renewed as proclaimed by Moses and other prophets, a fleshy heart, a heart that yield to God, where God spirit dwells. That was fulfilled in Jesus. That is the only covenant God had with man. No old or new. It was same covenant renewed.

Q4
In conclusion, no where at any point did I say Jesus did not quote Moses or the old testament.
My bone of contention has always been that you do not agree that there was a new covenant and that Jesus' teachings and the teachings of the Apostles differ from the teachings of Moses.

This is exacly what i am clearing. Moses never taught anything different. How do you say someone used my jottings and taught something different. He copied my notes, used it has his authority, yet you said he taught what is different. The authority of the scriptures mean you agreed to all that was taught not teaching your own doctrine from it.

Is like saying a scientist copied Darwin and agreed that Darwins research was his authority, yet claim he wrong against Darwin. Authority simply means agreement, that i agree it is true, one who i support and trust and copy from to make judgement.

Jesus never taught his own doctrine, he taught Moses doctrine.

Q5
Another clear difference in their teachings is that Moses was a man of battle and taught the Israelites to kill both chronic sinners and also attack and kill Gentiles and take over their lands and properties.
Jesus on the other hand taught the way of Peace. He set his ears on spiritual warfare not physical. He even prevented his disciples from fighting to save him or themselves. He taught that those who live by the sword would die by it.

Bro, ancient world, ancient world. You must always take that in consideration in your interpretation. All ancient world fought war because that is how you will survive. That is the norm then. Moses was

1. A head of state
2. A prophet of God.

He has a responsibility to fight war as head of state of Israel. Yet he has a responsibility as God's prophet to speak God eternal facts. You must know how to separate this. Ask yourself, Would Jesus have fought war or not in time of Moses? A nation that cant engage in war in the ancient world is doom for annihilations. That was their history. Ask Again, would Moses have fought war if he comes in Jesus time. Answer that with his words below.

Deut 18:
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

The spirit on Christ was same on Moses. Hence we can interpolate their actions if the character were exchanged in history.

By the way, wasnt Jesus (God) the Lord of host of Moses the army.

hupernikao:


Was the golden calf not for worship? In their days, where do they hold worship of idols? If they are to continue worshiping the golden image, where will it be worshipped? Was it not going to be in the temple. A demand for golden calf is already a demand for temple of worship.

You need to read the bible with the cultural background of their days. You are reading it in isolation. How will someone in Moses days desire a god and you said he doesnt desire a tabernacle or temple.

Deuteronomy 4:15-19, 23-25
So since you saw no form of any kind on the day the LORD spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb, be careful

No form, no tabernacle, no temple. he spoke to them directly. That was God's plan. They rejected him, hence the reason they were given temple. In facts the temple was a demonstration of the veil in their heart that separate them from God. Moses as a new testament preacher never had veil separating him from God. he spoke with God face to face.

I gave you Stephen defence, go and read it again. God's desire was never a temple, Moses desire was never a temple.





So the reason for the above was clear in the bible. They never wanted God to speak to them directly. Hence what Moses preached to them, his commandment was that God wants to indwell them and speak directly to them. They rejected that. This is the reason for the temple. That is to let you know that the temple wasnt original plan of God. It was man made idea.

Hence what you are calling old covenant was a rejection of God's covenant which Moses preached. What you see in Christ was a renewal of what Moses preached. The temple was man's choice, man's rejection not God's covenant. God's covenant was to live in man. That was Moses messages and Jesus too. They both preached the same.






Good, so does this not showed you that this is an image of a resemblance of things in heaven. But God warned against that in his covenant.

Deuteronomy 5:8
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

He gave them to show them their rejection. God never lived in that temple, not even for a day.

Acts 7
47 But Solomon built him an house.
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

He never had such plan. He gave them their desire, when they rejected his. That is clear in the scriptures.




Yes, but dont loose focus on why the temple was given. They asked to see what they worship, they wanted to be like the heathen. They made a god, because they needed to worship image. In ancient world, gods are worshipped in temples. Hence by requesting for an idol/god they already request for a temple of worship but God gave them none in his covenant. Man is to be God's temple. Moses preached this to them.

The physical temple was a demonstration of the hardness of their heart. It was God showing them, that i gave you up to your own desire. It was a sign of rejecting God. Same as the tablet of stones. Every other writers interpreted it as the heart of the disobedient man (stony heart). God's law was to be in their hearts but they are hardened (stony heart) hence he gave them to their desires. God's covenant (dwelling in man) is now renewed as proclaimed by Moses and other prophets, a fleshy heart, a heart that yield to God, where God spirit dwells. That was fulfilled in Jesus. That is the only covenant God had with man. No old or new. It was same covenant renewed.





This is exacly what i am clearing. Moses never taught anything different. How do you say someone used my jottings and taught something different. He copied my notes, used it has his authority, yet you said he taught what is different. The authority of the scriptures mean you agreed to all that was taught not teaching your own doctrine from it.

Is like saying a scientist copied Darwin and agreed that Darwins research was his authority, yet claim he wrong against Darwin. Authority simply means agreement, that i agree it is true, one who i support and trust and copy from to make judgement.

Jesus never taught his own doctrine, he taught Moses doctrine.





Bro, ancient world, ancient world. You must always take that in consideration in your interpretation. All ancient world fought war because that is how you will survive. That is the norm then. Moses was

1. A head of state
2. A prophet of God.

He has a responsibility to fight war as head of state of Israel. Yet he has a responsibility as God's prophet to speak God eternal facts. You must know how to separate this. Ask yourself, Would Jesus have fought war or not in time of Moses? A nation that cant engage in war in the ancient world is doom for annihilations. That was their history. Ask Again, would Moses have fought war if he comes in Jesus time. Answer that with his words below.

Deut 18:
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

The spirit on Christ was same on Moses. Hence we can interpolate their actions if the character were exchanged in history.

By the way, wasnt Jesus (God) the Lord of host of Moses the army.

If that's the way you see it, It's fine.
This your last point ehn? You want to start on theophany again? Lol

Anyway, like I said, we should open another thread some time for that or who knows some time we could meet in 7D.

On this topic of this thread though, how the bible came about is still up for discussion.