@ PTH, I totally agree with your last observations about Reverend. I've been reading his posts, even in other threads and I think he's always so eager, almost desperate to tell everyone that there's no God. It seems like a defensive approach to me, defending himself against what, I don't know. And Reverend, I get the vibes that you are not a very happy person, I may be wrong but that's what at think. Its as though you are not at peace with yourself and you feel constantly lashing out at other people's religious beliefs would help. I'm sorry, I don't know you, but its just an impression I get.

You need to go all the way and become an atheist like me and Tai Solarin. You need not waste your time trying to obey imaginary commandments in order to appease these illiterates. Half religion is no religion!

Free thinker indeed

Hu m m m m!! Free thinker, Heaven, Hell, your God, their Gods etc. These are the reactions of some of our people in the house. I could see that more of the contributors so far tilted their arguments in favour of the REVEREND from UK. While it is easier for someone who is enjoying all the benefits of this earth in the advanced world like UK to come up with a notion that all things exist for itself without any supernatural superior power controlling them, same can not be said of an average Nigeria toiling day in day out searching for crumbs to eat. Mr. REVEREND pls relocate from UK to Nigeria. There, you will know that GOD exists.
Do you believe that there are witches and wizard? Do you know how they operate? How can one use science to explain the activities of a witch who sleeps at say Abuja and at the same time operating in Canada - the journey can be completed within seconds. If planet earth is spherical as scientists proved which I have no doubt about, how can one prove the abilities of the magicians? If one agrees that some people have supernatural powers to do evil and also do good, how can one proof these scientifically? Science is in the domain of realism while religion is in the domain of idealism.
There are evil spirits in which devil - Satan is their master. So also, there are angel/Malaika [Christianity/Judaism/ Islam beliefs] Even in the Yoruba beliefs, there are Iwin, Oro etc[mystical beings who lives in the trees, rocks etc] If Iwin or Oro can live inside trees or inside rocks, which kind of scientific explanation can one use for this.
Hell exist so also Heaven! God exist so also Satan. God Created heaven and earth. If one dies, the body decays in the earth while the soul travel out of the body waiting the Day of Judgment. QED! [/color]

adomidoben:

Free thinker indeed

I prayed for you yesterday and I heard a message that God has plan

to use you for his work. So be ready for when he will come knocking.

@atheists
I got news for those who dont believe in God's existence. The truth is God doesn't believe in Atheist,

@freethinkers
talk of free thinking, if the one who gave you the mind to think in the 1st place takes it away, then i guess there would be no such thing as freethinking!!!

@ geegee
It's quite sad to see so many people here trying to scare you back into the fold.
If you are truly a freethinker and have the courage to question your beliefs and preconceived notions do not shy away for the consequences.
if you believe there is a God and that God is all loving, then that God is not going to punish you from using your brain and investigating your purpose in life. Continue on your search, wherever it may lead you.
Above all, never let anyone tall you what to think, think for yourself and don't let others do the thinking for you

When atheists are involved in discussions on the existence of God, it is usually out of compassion. Contrary to what some profess, 'choosing' to believe doesn't come free, you will at the very least, spend a lot of your time and energy in maintaining/supporting your belief system, time that could be spent on other things.
At the negative end of the spectrum of belief, the irrationality that comes with God-belief can steer people into actions that are very harmful to themselves and others such as oppressing female sexuality, ostracism and sometimes outright violence against people that don't share their beliefs
Atheist engaging in these kind of discussions want to 'save' people from spoiling their precious time and happiness on what is ultimately a completely useless activity.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a God or any other supernatural entity exists. Most arguments for the existence of God (such as the argument from design) fail even under the most cursory scrutiny

Whatever you do, don't let anyone tell you not to use that precious brain of yours.

Don't contradict the truth. God gave us all free will to choose between good and evil, not free will to think. Thinking outside the box never helped anyone in the past, present and definitely not in the future. Being a free thinker means you're not choosing good, but you're not choosing evil either. I'd like to know if there's any intermediate state between good and evil.

@Poster
To answer your question with a question - If you're a free thinker, why are you so bothered about going to heaven? Why don't you "free think" up your own ideal life after death? Of course, you're free to do so.

Cheers

You cannot be a free thinker and expect to go to heaven. The bible says that Jesus is the way, the truth and life, it also says that without being born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God. It is only thru Jesus Christ that you can be saved, so be you a free thinker or a lone ranger without Jesus you won't be happy.

Why is heaven (the one christian's speak of) such a big issue?

Have you ever asked? What makes heaven, heaven? Someone is there that must make the place different from this one you are used to. A system must be there that makes the place worthwhile.

Why are you so scared of dying, why do you want to be consoled by believing in a God you do not know or are sure of?

Why do people want to spend time arguing about God's inexistent, if he does not exist why bother? Why convince others if everyone goes to thesame place when they die? Why do good? Whats the gain in life? Have fun, live carelessly and disregard everyone else. Who cares? What is the gain?

Something in you tells you that there is more to life - perhaps free thinking, perhaps conscience

Something in you wants to be in a place, a much better place when you die - perhaps free thinking, perhaps conscience.

Something in you tell you that there is indeed an Almighty and Sovereign God - perhaps free thinking, perhaps conscience.

I'd wanted to quote a warning for you from the bible but i changed my mind and decided on a very popular verse, perhaps the most popular in the world.

For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior. Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son. This is how the judgment works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil. Those who do evil things hate the light and will not come to the light, because they do not want their evil deeds to be shown up. But those who do what is true come to the light in order that the light may show that what they did was in obedience to God.
(Joh 3:16-21 GNB)

Kemjisuper:

Don't contradict the truth.

Which truth? How do you determine truth?

Kemjisuper:

God gave us all free will to choose between good and evil, not free will to think.

1. How is choice even possible without thinking?
2. Your argument presupposes the existence of God
3. Any doctrine that scares people away from thinking for themselves is infantile and evil

Kemjisuper:

Thinking outside the box never helped anyone in the past, present and definitely not in the future.

Idiocy comes in many forms and shapes, but this is really a gem

Kemjisuper:

Being a free thinker means you're not choosing good, but you're not choosing evil either. I'd like to know if there's any intermediate state between good and evil.

It has nothing to do with choosing good or evil. you really are logically challenged, aren't you?

Kemjisuper:

@Poster
To answer your question with a question - If you're a free thinker, why are you so bothered about going to heaven? Why don't you "free think" up your own ideal life after death? Of course, you're free to do so.

She seems to be an honest searcher and all you can do is come up with this kind of blather?

Is it not horrible, when people try in their own imagination to out smart God?

Let me let you know my dear people: I dont have to defend God or compel anyone to believe that He (God) exists, nor will I ask you to join any so call 'religion'

However I can tell you that there is God and that christainity is not a religon. you and only you have thr right to decide what is best for you.

If you feel there's no heaven or hell, cos for some obvious reason you can't see or feel them, thats for you.

be that as it may: let me say this; for me God is God and He's the God of all creations, exists from eternity to eternity and he's ways are perfect, he gave us the choice to chose what kind of life to live and even so He advice that we chose a good life which is his ways.

However, whatever we feel, say, think or do can not in any way affect His existance nor His ways.

If I were you, knowing that he existed is not enough, but getting to know him better and believe in his awesome power and living for him will us good and most importantly we cant know him is isolation and thats were christainity comes to play.

Tinkin_guy:


If I were you, knowing that he existed is not enough, but getting to know him better and believe in his awesome power and living for him will us good and most importantly we can't know him is isolation and thats were christainity comes to play.

Why christianity alone?Why not some other religion?

Too bad my friend, the ONLY WAY to heaven is through one man JESUS CHRIST.No matter how free, intelligent, inspiring your 'thinking' is no heaven for you except you know the WAY.[color=#990000][/color]

nferyn:

It's quite sad to see so many people here trying to scare you back into the fold.

What fold if I may ask? Poster never mentioned pressure from any group in particular.

nferyn:

If you are truly a freethinker and have the courage to question your beliefs and preconceived notions do not shy away for the consequences.

It's nice to hear you state that there truly are consequences for being a "free thinker".

nferyn:

if you believe there is a God and that God is all loving, then that God is not going to punish you from using your brain and investigating your purpose in life. Continue on your search, wherever it may lead you.
Above all, never let anyone tall you what to think, think for yourself and don't let others do the thinking for you

This still clearly does not answer the question as to why the poster is still keen on going to heaven!

nferyn:

When atheists are involved in discussions on the existence of God, it is usually out of compassion. Contrary to what some profess, 'choosing' to believe doesn't come free, you will at the very least, spend a lot of your time and energy in maintaining/supporting your belief system, time that could be spent on other things.
At the negative end of the spectrum of belief, the irrationality that comes with God-belief can steer people into actions that are very harmful to themselves and others such as oppressing female sexuality, ostracism and sometimes outright violence against people that don't share their beliefs
Atheist engaging in these kind of discussions want to 'save' people from spoiling their precious time and happiness on what is ultimately a completely useless activity.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a God or any other supernatural entity exists. Most arguments for the existence of God (such as the argument from design) fail even under the most cursory scrutiny

You are clearly trying to mislead others. If you've taken a basic course in Philosophy, you'll understand that even atheists have some evidence to back the existence of a supreme being. You mentioned the argument from design. I guess you've also heard about the "unmoved mover" and "unchanged changer" alongside the "Ultimate designer" as discussed by atheists?

nferyn:

Whatever you do, don't let anyone tell you not to use that precious brain of yours.

I don't remember seeing any comments previously posted which suggest that.

Cheers

u dont even have to believe in any God or religion to go to heaven(Depending on what that is). U just need to follow the universal laws and principles of good and bad to lessen your karma in your next life. Besides there are a thousand and one gods so which oone can be the true god, God of the bible(actually the jewish god) Allah, or even your traditional gods.

Do you believe that there are witches and wizard? Do you know how they operate? How can one use science to explain the activities of a witch who sleeps at say Abuja and at the same time operating in Canada - the journey can be completed within seconds.

It's called bilocation and it is a paranormal phenomenon because it violates the known laws of physics. Many mystics, saints, monks and other holy people have experienced it. St. Alphonsus Liguori had several involuntary experiences. In 1774, the saint fell into a trance in his cell and when he came out of the trance he said he had just visited the bedside of the dying Pope Clement XIV. Credible witnesses confirmed that he had been seen at the Pope's bedside despite the fact that during the same time, he was confined to a cell in a location that was a four-day journey away.

It's not only practitioners of witchcraft that bilocate.

Capricon
What universal laws? What made them universal? Why must we obey them?

Who is going to know or punish me if i don't obey them? Who told you about karma? What after life?

What proof do you have that those exist. If there is an after life, who made that possible and who is incharge?

Why is there an afterlife? Is there a before life? What is after afterlife?

Good to know the devil still has enough reasons to heat up his flames. My dear one accept Jesus as your saviour, living as a free thinker is just an archaic form of protest against society. I advice you to ask God to reveal himself to you, pray for a personal encounter with the Lord and most of all pray for Him to reveal His glory to you, if you can handle it.

You are not free, you are inhabited by the spirits of denial and rebellion, free your mind with Jesus.

id say to u, that is its beta 4u to believe that heaven and earth is 4real and the ONLY way to God is Jesus while ure alive and then die to findout that it doesnt exist afterall;than for you to live on earth as u wish and die to find out that 'there is truly life after death'.
truly ure not free cos there's no vacuum in space. heaven is not sure 4u and im sure u know it urself cos that wat made u ask publicly.

yes you d go to heaven .i believe there is a free thinkers heaven .besta luck

Atheists always claim that their is no evidence for the existence of God, yet they have not provided any evidence for the non-existence of God. They accuse believers of blind faith but it actaully requires a higher level of blind faith to believe in the non-existence of God than to believe in the existence of the Creator. It is more logical to believe that any work including the universe, books, houses, cars, scientific discoveries etc has an author than to believe that a work emerged by itself. It is also not logical to believe that scientific laws are in themselves self creating, it is very likely that the scientific laws also have its author. In my opinion, many athesists are disputing the conception of God as proposed by many religions, not of God, the almighty  Creator. Atheists in my view should seek for God independently of the views propounded by many religions, they may probably find the Almighty Creator.

It is imposible for the physical body to be at more than one place at a time. It is however possible for a physical body to be in a location B while the soul or activities of the soul are found in other locations. Individuals whose inner eyes are opened to see the soul or its activities percieve what they saw to be the person in physical body. Thus they report their sightings as bilocation. A hint that what they saw in other places is not the human being in physical body can be glimsed from the observation that such sightings do not last for a long time.

@Jagunlabi: thank you very much for your intelligent submission.
@Poster: do whatever rocks your boat so long as it doesn't affect the next person to you negatively. So many so called religious adherents are nothing but hypocrites anyway.

Nefryn, I only just saw your post now, brilliant!!!

Atheists always claim that their is no evidence for the existence of God, yet they have not provided any evidence for the non-existence of God

What other evidence do they need to provide, they simply can't SEE or FEEL!!!

What objective evidence do Christians have that Muhammad is not a prophet? So what gives them the right not to follow his teachings? If you believe in something, the burden is on you to prove it or shut up!

@Christino:
If God can talk, why does he conveniently only talk to pastors and prophets who want your money? Why can't he show up on CNN (or the sky) if he really wants people to believe in him? It makes no sense! If God is real, let us get some solid evidence of his existence. Solid, reliable, consistent, objective evidence!

Kemjisuper:

It's quite sad to see so many people here trying to scare you back into the fold.

What fold if I may ask? Poster never mentioned pressure from any group in particular.

No, there's only evidence of the posters in this thread that use scare tactics. On the other hand, in view of how careful she worded her questions, I wouldn't be surprised ifshe's been confronted with people that tried to scare her back into the flock in real life before.

Kemjisuper:

If you are truly a freethinker and have the courage to question your beliefs and preconceived notions do not shy away for the consequences.

It's nice to hear you state that there truly are consequences for being a "free thinker".

There are consequences to everything you do, also to your philosophical outlook. You probably know better than me what the social impact is of openly avowing to be a freethinker in Nigerian society. Ostracism would probably be too kind a description.

Kemjisuper:

if you believe there is a God and that God is all loving, then that God is not going to punish you from using your brain and investigating your purpose in life. Continue on your search, wherever it may lead you.
Above all, never let anyone tall you what to think, think for yourself and don't let others do the thinking for you

This still clearly does not answer the question as to why the poster is still keen on going to heaven!

She seems to be a searcher that's not completely set in her thinking, still open to new ideas, probably a teen or a young adult. She should be encouraged to continue in her path of intellectual and philosophical growth. Asking these questions is a very good step in the right direction.

Kemjisuper:

When atheists are involved in discussions on the existence of God, it is usually out of compassion. Contrary to what some profess, 'choosing' to believe doesn't come free, you will at the very least, spend a lot of your time and energy in maintaining/supporting your belief system, time that could be spent on other things.
At the negative end of the spectrum of belief, the irrationality that comes with God-belief can steer people into actions that are very harmful to themselves and others such as oppressing female sexuality, ostracism and sometimes outright violence against people that don't share their beliefs
Atheist engaging in these kind of discussions want to 'save' people from spoiling their precious time and happiness on what is ultimately a completely useless activity.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a God or any other supernatural entity exists. Most arguments for the existence of God (such as the argument from design) fail even under the most cursory scrutiny

You are clearly trying to mislead others.

How so? What in my post seems to be misleading to you?

Kemjisuper:

If you've taken a basic course in Philosophy,

Don't try that corny line on me, sir. I'm not a rebellious teen in my formative years with an identity crisis

Kemjisuper:

you'll understand that even atheists have some evidence to back the existence of a supreme being.

Really? Please elaborate.

Kemjisuper:

You mentioned the argument from design. I guess you've also heard about the "unmoved mover" and "unchanged changer" alongside the "Ultimate designer" as discussed by atheists?

What exactly are you getting at here?

Kemjisuper:

Whatever you do, don't let anyone tell you not to use that precious brain of yours.

I don't remember seeing any comments previously posted which suggest that.

Yours would be an excellent example:

Thinking outside the box never helped anyone in the past, present and definitely not in the future.

Hahaahahhhaaa, God will not appear on CNN or Sky in order to provide evidence that he exists. Even if he appears, seconds after the end of his appearance on TV,  atheists will quicky claim that it is mass hallucination or trump up some other reasons to justify their views. The onus to find evidence for the existence of God lies with each person. Looking for existence of God from other people including religious people will not take you far and will probably divert you from finding compelling answers to your questions. This is because as soon as you look up to others,  you are likely to be diverted to their person. Thus that many pastors, imans, rabbii etc have used religion to serve their selfish purpose in the course of history does not justify the rejection of God for religion and God are actually different things. In addition what people call objective truth are limited by the limitation of the instrument with which the investigate the truth. Prior to the invention of a microscope, even science denied the existence of bacteria, fungi, viruses etc. Today even a primary school kid knows the existence of this beautiful world of microorganisms. That your ear cannot percieve radio waves doesnot mean that radio waves are not all around you. If you get a radio set that can step down the waves to frequencies aaudible to the human ear, then you will hear. The point I am trying to make that  present science by its limitation of instruments cannot fathom the existence of God. To recognise God requires instruments that are presently beyound the confines of science. Even everyday concepts like love, hate, happiness, compassion etc cannot be analysed in a laboratory and yet even the atheists know when they are loved or hated.

m_nwankwo:

Atheists always claim that their is no evidence for the existence of God, yet they have not provided any evidence for the non-existence of God.

That's a non sequitor. You cannot prove a universal negative.
You make an extraordinary claim and it's up to you to provide evidence for that claim.

m_nwankwo:

They accuse believers of blind faith but it actaully requires a higher level of blind faith to believe in the non-existence of God than to believe in the existence of the Creator.

Another empty assertion. Care to substantiate your claim?

m_nwankwo:

It is more logical to believe that any work including the universe, books, houses, cars, scientific discoveries etc has an author than to believe that a work emerged by itself.

1. There is clear and unambiguous evidence for the creation of man-made objects. There is no evidence at all for the creation of the natural world by a deity and plenty of evidence that it is a result of natural processes
2. 'emerged by itself' is another gem of a strawman. Who claimed that any of these things 'emoerged by themselves'? They are the result of natural processes, yes, but they definitely didn't emerge by themselves. Next thing you're going to say is that they emerged 'by chance'?
3. what has logic to do with any of what you're saying? Pray tell me how you managed to throw 'logic' in the mix? Do you have any idea what logic is?

m_nwankwo:

It is also not logical to believe that scientific laws are in themselves self creating,

Why? Where's the logical contradiction? Besides, your usage of the words 'self creating' only points to your lack of understanding of the scientific method.

m_nwankwo:

it is very likely that the scientific laws also have its author.

Laws are (usually mathematical) descriptions of regularities in nature, they do not imply any author.

m_nwankwo:

In my opinion, many athesists are disputing the conception of God as proposed by many religions, not of God, the almighty Creator.

Most atheists do both.
A creator-god is a very anthropocentric entity that is entirely unnecessary to explain the natural universe.

m_nwankwo:

Atheists in my view should seek for God independently of the views propounded by many religions, they may probably find the Almighty Creator.

Please stop with your presuppositionalism and give me a cogent reason to believe in your creator-god in the first place

m_nwankwo:

It is imposible for the physical body to be at more than one place at a time. It is however possible for a physical body to be in a location B while the soul or activities of the soul are found in other locations.

Again, you presuppose the existence of a soul. Before we go any further, could you bring some evidence that such an immaterial soul can exist? What does such a soul explain that cannot be explained by taking a naturalistic stance?

m_nwankwo:

Individuals whose inner eyes are opened to see the soul or its activities percieve what they saw to be the person in physical body.

Out-of-body experiences can easily be explained by neuroscience. They can even be induced under laboratory conditions.

m_nwankwo:

Thus they report their sightings as bilocation. A hint that what they saw in other places is not the human being in physical body can be glimsed from the observation that such sightings do not last for a long time.

These reports have never been confirmed under any form of rational scrutiny. You're grasping at straws

I disagree with nferyn views. He demands proofs for a universal positive and yet declare that a unversal negative cannot be proven. What evidence do you have to show that the non-existence of God is a univeral negative and what is the basis for the assertion that a negative cannot be proven. The explanation of natural process to be responsible to the coming into being of the universe indeed has it inherent flaws as any competent physists or molecular biologist will find out in the course of his or her research. I want to know how the natural process explained the birth of our Universe. I presume you are way of darwian evolutioniary theory, can you use it or any theory for that matter to explain the emergence of diversity with specific illustration of how one specie evolved, the intermediate precursors and the DNA composition as the process of evolution proceeded. I will also like you to use natural process as you concieve to explain the time scale of the natural process for the coming into beig of different species including man. Also kindly provide your natural explanation why the human specie as we know it today has alsmost 99% DNA sequence homology with the so called anthropoid apes and yet the difference between humans and these apes are as far apart as the mind can concieve. Can you also use the natural process to explain the origin of the laws of nature. If they do not have an author where do they come from? Evidence is only limited to what you are using to measure the evidence. To state that their is no soul presumes that such an individual is all knowing and knows all meaurable and immeasurable evidence. Once again, if you cannot find evidence for the existence of the creator, the onus is on you and not on others.

i wonder why there is so much desperation to prove that heaven and God does not exist. If truly he does not why bother?

m_nwankwo:

It is imposible for the physical body to be at more than one place at a time. It is however possible for a physical body to be in a location B while the soul or activities of the soul are found in other locations. Individuals whose inner eyes are opened to see the soul or its activities percieve what they saw to be the person in physical body. Thus they report their sightings as bilocation. A hint that what they saw in other places is not the human being in physical body can be glimsed from the observation that such sightings do not last for a long time.

St Alphonsus's bilocation experience went on for hours and ended about the time the Pope died. Alphosus was a bishop and there were many priests and domestics who watched him as he awoke because they were concerned. He told them that he had been assisting the Pope. There were high ranking members of the church who were at the pope's bedside when he died. Alphonsus has been documented as being present when the pope died. The formal news of the Pope's death gave the day and time of death and it coincided with the time Alphonsus awakened from his trance.