@ Sweetnecta

Baba wey sweet, I go answer you laer today o jeee, I dey go sleep!

@Seyibrown; On the above, I am waiting for you. I will enjoy every last letter you type. I will reserve my comment until i see your Jesus and the things that are Jesus and your not Jesus and the things that are not Jesus.

@Rezzy; This is an invitation to a show in the amphitheater. You can watch from your house, if you can see the open air theater.

@5star and Joeagbaje; « #59 on: Yesterday at 03:52:07 PM »
[Quote]@ Op
U all should read 2 timothy 3:5

Jesus himself depended solely on the Holy Spirit for his earthly ministry, me thinks we ought to do the same

u can introduce one to the teachings of Jesus,he can go ahead and practice them and be well off doing so , buh it won't save him, the Jesus "change"should from inside out and not the other way. Cornelius, Acts 10 was a man with a very good resume with God but still needed to be saved

Paul is not more important than Jesus, he himself said "follow me as i follow Christ" 1 Corinthians 11: 1

only by one name can a man be saved, the name of Jesus Acts 4: 12

Bottom line all must repent and receive the holy spirit, Act 2:38

Bottom line, depend solely on his wisdom to win a soul, he knows the way, and who is ready to be won, not you, human wisdom will get us nowhere in spiritual things,[/Quote]What role did Jesus play in any Book of the Bible than The Gospels? Zero. Even in the Gospels, most of it was about where he went, how he got there; walking, on the boat or riding a donkey or two at the same time, how he slept, etc. Only the red letter portion is what it is assumed that he said. Even that most antagonize what he said and what earlier prophets were recorded to have said.

So to post any thing other than the Gospels to paint Jesus as personality is actually deceitful. Timothy can't pass for Jesus, but at best opinion of the writer about Jesus. If Jesus depends on the Holy Spirit, which you said is the most junior of the Gods in Trinity to conduct his earthly ministry, I wonder who is more powerful, the dependent or the one he depended on? No wonder the weak and most junior of the Gods, Holy Spirit was the one that came to support Jesus, What a support it was, according to the christians he was still hung.

How can Jesus fellowship not save a person, if Jesus is truly God and such a follower will need holy spirit still? If Cornelius was truly in good standing with Jehovah, shouldn't Jehovah be enough? Allah was Enough for Ibrahim [as] when the enemies threw him in the fire. On his way in the air into the fire malaika Jibril met him and asked if he needed help. He told him that Allah has empowered me to help you. Ibrahim told Jibril, I do not need your help because Allah my Creator knows my condition and Only He can help. Allah immediately told the fire before Ibrahim get to it to be a place of peace and safety for him. Ibrahim spent 40 days in the fire and came out and reported that it was some of the most peaceful days of his life.

Did Paul follow Jesus? Did he know Jesus? Did Jesus know of Paul? Lets go to www.leveltruth.com
We can visit the dead seascroll portion of it and see what is said of 'the liar'.

If Jesus is the only man/one that can save man, then the injustice has been done against those who were dead before Jesus; Adam and Eve, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Samuel, Saul, David, Solomon the wise, Elijah, Elisha, Job, Zacharias and John his son to name a few good men. Do any of you think God will condemn Abraham His personal Friend for you to enter "heaven", everyone wants paradise not heaven?



[Quote]Joagbaje (m)
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Re: "Why Evangelicals Should Stop Evangelizing"
« #60 on: Yesterday at 05:45:27 PM »

Quote from: 5STAR on Yesterday at 03:52:07 PM
@ Op

U all should read 2 timothy 3:5

Jesus himself depended solely on the Holy Spirit for his earthly ministry, me thinks we ought to do the same

u can introduce one to the teachings of Jesus,he can go ahead and practice them and be well off doing so , buh it won't save him, the Jesus "change"should from inside out and not the other way. Cornelius, Acts 10 was a man with a very good resume with God but still needed to be saved

BIG GBAM! for you, I've been wondering where are the good guys Grin

Quote
Paul is not more important than Jesus, he himself said "follow me as i follow Christ" 1 Corinthians 11: 1

only by one name can a man be saved, the name of Jesus Acts 4: 12

Bottom line all must repent and receive the holy spirit, Act 2:38

Bottom line, depend solely on his wisdom to win a soul, he knows the way, and who is ready to be won, not you, human wisdom will get us nowhere in spiritual things,

ANOTHER GBAM FOR YOU! that makes it two. A monkey is still a monkey even if he wears trouser! . Morality is not salvation. It's supposed to be a fruit . Salvation is through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/Quote]? Pitiful.



@seyibrown (f); « #62 on: Today at 01:27:20 AM »
[Quote]@ 5star,

Until you 'show' a village man (lost in the dark ages) an aeroplane he would probably think a horse is the fastest and most comfortable way to go on a long journey. Introduce the aeroplane and explain what it does and how it works FIRST, without asking him to FIRST get rid of his horse. Asking him to get rid of his horse when he has NO IDEA what that 'big metal bird' can do WILL NOT WORK UNLESS HE IS SO GULLIBLE THAT HE WILL ACCEPT THAT A MOTORCYCLE IS A BETTER MODE OF TRANSPORT WHEN SOMEONE ELSE TURNS UP LATER WITH ONE. His experience of travel in the plane and how long it took to get to his destination WILL CONVINCE him. You introduce the plane, the plane sells itself!

Introduce Jesus to a man; he starts liking how this Jesus does his things as opposed to his current role model and wants to experience him; Jesus converts him!

Preaching conversion does not give rise to immediate conversion in most circumstances. Many of us knew and loved Jesus as children having been introduced and continually taught about him but we did not PERSONALL MEET HIM until later in our years but HAVING BEEN TAUGHT JESUS made him ever present and ever nudging when doing non-Jesus things!

Teach a non-Christian the way that he should go and he will meet Jesus![/Quote]I am waiting. I want to meet the wailer. What I knew of him from the Bibles is not impressive. I wanna know what book[s] you are going to use now. If a muslim is dying and says 'my God, my God, why has Thou forsaken me [that I must die]?', he has became a non muslim. Why everyone expect death. It is a must.

If a messenger of God opens his mouth to make prayer to God, it is without doubt that the prayer is accepted. If it is not accepted, know that he is not a Messenger of God, because God will not allow His Messenger to make an unacceptable, not to be granted request. Jesus said in the Bibles that a prophet who says something and it does not get fulfilled is a false prophet. If Jesus made a prayer, cried about it to God and God still rejected the prayer, then such a Jesus is no Messenger of God. But you my dear Seyibrown go o far to say he is God and without him there is no God?

@seyibrown

seyibrown:
!
Introduce Jesus to a man; he starts liking how this Jesus does his things as opposed to his current role model and wants to experience him; Jesus converts him!

This is funny , salvation is from inside out and not from outside in. Let me ask you a question, what morality will you teach a Muslim that his faith doesn't teach? .

Joeagbaje is not support his sister, Seyibrown.

both of you, i offer Islam. Take it and ignore the boko haram, alqaidah, and others as i have ignored them.

There is a book published with the title " islam for us". Its about the so called revert [convert].

I remember a statement from one of the reverts; "if i had met muslims before i entered Islam, i probably will not have accept it". That revert was simply saying that muslims for the most part differ very greatly from true Islam.

it is true Islam that i ask you guys to research for yourself. I invite you to the religion ordained by the Owner of all Power; Allah The Almighty.

Do not let death come to you and you are not yet a Muslim "Don't die except as a muslim; in full submission to Allah".

Faith is a very strong thing. It does not matter what you believe in as long as you strongly believe in it with all your heart and it will work for you. Religion is nothing but pure confusion and brainwashing (just as the myth of "wepons of mass destruction in Iraq" that were never found and operation "free Lybyan people" who are actually more free and safe than the people dying in Sudan, Somalia and many more places).
Human mind is designed in such a way that humans / people cannot function properly without looking up to something or someone more superior, especially in difficult times. The early brilliant minds took advantage of that and created all these confusion we are dealing with today.
Look around the globe, so many people believe in so many different gods or things, yet they still get through when they pray to that god/s. Some of our own forefathers were pegans yet they lived succesfully enough to have us here today. Why were their requests answered even though they used trees, stones and other objects as their mediator to their god/s? Believe in whatever or whoever you feel confortable with, work hard towards your goals and you will get where you want. Most important of all RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS AND BELEIVES. PEACE

Easy, the author has zero understanding of "discipleship".

@ Sweet Necta.
What role did Jesus play in any Book of the Bible than The Gospels? Zero. Even in the Gospels, most of it was about where he went, how he got there; walking, on the boat or riding a donkey or two at the same time, how he slept, etc. Only the red letter portion is what it is assumed that he said. Even that most antagonize what he said and what earlier prophets were recorded to have said.

The whole of the Bible is about Jesus my dear friend and the highest point was his coming to the earth as man and his death on the cross, Gen 3: 15.Isaiah 7:14, deut. 18: 15-18,Heb 1:1, and of course the book of revelation. the gospel is actually the main event like the real thing, and we beheld his glory, as of the only begotten son , full of grace and truth, John 1:14,by actions and not only by word Jesus proved to all who he is, HE "FULFILLED" the Law

If Jesus depends on the Holy Spirit, which you said is the most junior of the Gods in Trinity to conduct his earthly ministry, I wonder who is more powerful, the dependent or the one he depended on? No wonder the weak and most junior of the Gods, Holy Spirit was the one that came to support Jesus, What a support it was, according to the christians he was still hung.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, Gen 1: 1, the Spirit of Christ , Rom 8:9, and the third personality that testifies in heaven 1John 5:7, the Holy Spirit today glorifies Jesus and empowers and comforts christians amongst many others, Jesus was hung to fulfill the word of God, it was his destiny to Die, and rise again, he himself said friend Luke 24 : 7, Psalm Isaiah 53, even David in the Psalms prophesied it Psalm 22, esp vs 1, and 18, very apt prophecies if u ask me, He died "as it is written about Him" Mathew 26:24


How can Jesus fellowship not save a person, if Jesus is truly God and such a follower will need holy spirit still? If Cornelius was truly in good standing with Jehovah, shouldn't Jehovah be enough? Allah was Enough for Ibrahim [as] when the enemies threw him in the fire. On his way in the air into the fire malaika Jibril met him and asked if he needed help. He told him that Allah has empowered me to help you. Ibrahim told Jibril, I do not need your help because Allah my Creator knows my condition and Only He can help. Allah immediately told the fire before Ibrahim get to it to be a place of peace and safety for him. Ibrahim spent 40 days in the fire and came out and reported that it was some of the most peaceful days of his life.

This is the Major difference between Christ likeness and others, we are saved to show forth good works not showing forth good works to get save, our work can not pay the price for Sin, it is only blood that can atone for Sin Lev.17:11, and i think someone else has done more justice to this


Did Paul follow Jesus? Did he know Jesus? Did Jesus know of Paul? Lets go to www.leveltruth.com
We can visit the dead seascroll portion of it and see what is said of 'the liar'.


Yes Paul did follow Jesus, 1 cor 11: 1, he "met" Jesus on his way to Damascus, Act 9, to persecute same christians, (very popular story too), Jesus knew Paul acts 23: 11, pls read 1 Cor. 15: 5-8, God bless



If Jesus is the only man/one that can save man, then the injustice has been done against those who were dead before Jesus; Adam and Eve, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Samuel, Saul, David, Solomon the wise, Elijah, Elisha, Job, Zacharias and John his son to name a few good men. Do any of you think God will condemn Abraham His personal Friend for you to enter "heaven", everyone wants paradise not heaven?


Yes, only by the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God (Matt1:21) can sin be forgiven John 3:17-18, ask urself friend how did Sin come into the human world, yes that's it by one Man, Adam (we all know that story), the same way sin and it's awful effects can be taken away by only one (Rom 5:12), and through his blood (Lev. 17:11), for those who lived righteously before Christ, the Bible says some were seen in Jerusalem when Christ resurrected (Matt 27:52-53), so it is possible that they also resurrected with Christ


So that all may know, it is God's will that everyman be saved, that is why he did all on the cross thru Christ, don't be unbelieving friend but accept that u need a savior and that u accept the one that God has provided as ransom for sin, He only is the door to salvation, God bless you

globexl:

@jesoul:
From the responses to your posting you can see that that there ia a dearth of intelligence in our land. Nigerians are hardly capable of deep critical thinking especially when it comes to matters of religion. We just love things that divided people. You chose the wrong audience for this topic. When it comes to religion, we are deaf and dumb.
Our educational system is configured and rigged to produce shallow and fragmented minds,  not  thinkers or philosophers . Fragmented mind equals fragamented reality. I am harrased everyday by people who have little or no inner virtues to shine forth as examples, but who spend much time trying to convince me  of  the superiority of their beliefs.

This part in bold is one the biggest issues. It would be so much more convincing if the efficacy of ones religion was evident beyond doubt in quality their lifestyle - rather than how loud they can preach or sing or clap.

davidylan:

Easy, the author has zero understanding of "discipleship".

Ah! Oga David longest time. How body now? Hope all is well with you. Can you briefly explain what 'discipleship' is? gracias.

5STAR:

u can introduce one to the teachings of Jesus,he can go ahead and practice them and be well off doing so , buh it won't save him, the Jesus "change"should from inside out and not the other way.

Jn 14:21 "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

Mt 7:18 "Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jm2 Faith and Deeds
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? . . . In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder . . .  In the same way, was not even Rahab the pro.stitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  Let us think on these scriptures carefully . . . the "works" that many are so eager to dismiss as unimportant is at the very center of what the scriptures declare to be true faith. Yes we are justified by faith alone in Christ - but if this 'faith' does not have any works to show for it, then it is a dead faith. Too often we overemphasize faith and forget to insist upon works as the necessary evidence.


If Rahab - a pros.titute - could be considered righteous because of a faith displayed by her actions, how much more other 'outcasts' of non-'christian' backgrounds?


To live and faithfully practice a lifestyle as Jesus taught IS what is means to believe, accept, & love Christ! - there is no greater evidence of faith than this! Faith that is overflowing to the outside and visible for all to see. Isn't it Jesus who said "by their FRUIT you shall know them"? And this is at the very heart of what Jesus called us to. Once a person has this foundation, a solid understanding of who Jesus is and His sacrifice, the Holy Spirit is the one who will further and complete the work of conversion (along with all the doctrinal fluff) even until Christ returns as we are all still being conformed more to Christ daily.

  This is quite different from showing up on a muslim family's door and asking them to convert to another religion. Jesus Christ is the key, the way, truth and life - and yes HE transcends our limited comprehension of 'religion' - this is so key and critical. He is the one who will do the converting - to whatever He wills for each man. Our job is to introduce people to Him and then get out the way.

5STAR:
u can introduce one to the teachings of Jesus,he can go ahead and practice them and be well off doing so , buh it won't save him, the Jesus "change"should from inside out and not the other way. Cornelius, Acts 10 was a man with a very good resume with God but still needed to be saved

  Reading your post again brings another thought to mind . . .

Which comes first: the faith? or the works? or are they inextricably linked? Is it necessary a person be conscious of their 'faith' in order to produce godliness?

Romans 2 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

  These people who naturally produced good works following their conscience, what 'faith' (in our modern understanding) did they have? Or if 'works' (as contexted in Romans) is indeed 'faith' then perhaps we don't even need to ask the question at all?

^^^^^.
, Dear Sista Jesoul, i haven't said the works are not at all important, but i am saying it is the FAITH that now brings about the works, FAITH first then the fruits (works) not the Works first, IT IS ACKNOWLEDGING "THE SACRIFICE OF GOD THAT SAVES" all others is just playing religion,

      they can't be separated, but in "christlikeness"  faith comes before the works, after the faith, Jesus, through the Holy Spirit begins to mold and to shape, until we become just like Him  see Gal 3: 26 and Eph. 4, esp vs 13,


The Pharisees of Jesus' days had  works, they fasted twice weekly,they gave alms, they tithed, even to the smallest things, they knew scriptures that would make some us look like kg students, Paul himself said ' "OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS OF THE LAW HE WAS BLAMELESS" Philippians 3 , (i think this was one of the reasons why Christ chose him), but after he was converted ,we all know the rest,

Abraham's righteousness was by "FAITH', he "believed" God and it was counted unto him for Righteousness    Rom 4



These people who naturally produced good works following their conscience, what 'faith' (in our modern understanding) did they have? Or if 'works' (as contexted in Romans) is indeed 'faith' then perhaps we don't even need to ask the question at all?


Faith that Jesus, who is the promised messiah, and God's sacrificial "LAMB" was killed and rose again, and salvation is only by him,

5STAR:

^^^^^.
, Dear Sista Jesoul, i haven't said the works are not at all important, but i am saying it is the FAITH that now brings about the works, FAITH first then the fruits (works) not the Works first, IT IS ACKNOWLEDGING "THE SACRIFICE OF GOD THAT SAVES" all others is just playing religion,

  Dear brother 5Star

  I do recognize that you didn't say 'works are not important' dear and I apologize for making it sound like you did. I was moreso using your post to respond to Joagbaje and others. We're all not too far apart in what we believe, just a few ends that need some tying .

they can't be separated, but in "christlikeness"  faith comes before the works, after the faith, Jesus, through the Holy Spirit begins to mold and to shape, until we become just like Him  see Gal 3: 26 and Eph. 4, esp vs 13,

I'll return to this bit in a minute . . .

The Pharisees of Jesus' days had  works, they fasted twice weekly,they gave alms, they tithed, even to the smallest things, they knew scriptures that would make some us look like kg students, Paul himself said ' "OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS OF THE LAW HE WAS BLAMELESS" Philippians 3 , (i think this was one of the reasons why Christ chose him), but after he was converted ,we all know the rest

Exactly right. There are those trusting in their works to save them, I think we'll all agree on that bit.

Faith that Jesus, who is the promised messiah, and God's sacrificial "LAMB" was killed and rose again, and salvation is only by him,

This is the part I'm trying to get at.
There are obviously people who have lived and died - and were justified in the sight of God going by these 'natural' laws in their hearts, they never heard the name Jesus or of His great sacrifice . . . what "Faith" did these people have first?

^^^^^^

Love the last paragraph.

Anticipating the response.

There are obviously people
who have lived and died -
and were justified in the
sight of God going by these
'natural' laws in their
hearts, they never heard
the name Jesus or of His
great sacrifice . . . what
"Faith" did these people
have first?

This is tough and unpopular, but how do you read Acts 4v12?

This is the part I'm trying to get at.
There are obviously people who have lived and died - and were justified in the sight of God going by these 'natural' laws in their hearts, they never heard the name Jesus or of His great sacrifice . . . what "Faith" did these people have first?
[quote][/quote]

My Dear Sister,
though u have not given examples buh i want to guess that these people u are talking about are biblical examples, lets say Hebrews 11?
these people u talk about that were justified in the eyes of God according to the bible did not attain this status because of their works. they did because they responded to the "WORD" of God that came to them at that time (Faith comes by hearing the word of God), in your own words in one of your posts, (To live and faithfully practice a lifestyle as Jesus taught IS what is means to believe, accept, & love Christ! - there is no greater evidence of faith than this)

they believed FIRST! ACCEPTED SECOND, One can never please God with his/her works    Heb. 11:6

Examples:

Abraham.   The WORD of God came to him, and he believed without knowing where he was going, look at Romans 4:2, If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God., now look at vs 3, 4, What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”, Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation NIV

Abraham was a man of altars, he sacrificed to God and prayed to him in Faith

Moses, at the burning bush(we all know the story), the God of his fathers "SPOKE" to him and he responded and acted on what was said,
also see  Deut. 18: 15, John 1:45 (very important)

David, God promised him that his seed would sit on the throne of Israel forever, and he believed, before he became king he was walking in the faith of his fathers as specified by Moses (we know this)

Others, as written in Hebrews 11:, all Believed the word of God, as it came to them   and "OBEYED" and they were justified as righteous

Now,

In this dispensation, the grace of God which has come to the world through the seed of the woman Gen 3:15 has been made manifest, Heb. 11:13 says that some died without receiving the promise, they "SAW" it from afar off(WITH THE EYES OF FAITH), they looked for a country whose builder is God, and condenmed the world around them, look at the last 2 verses of Heb 11, it says, These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,  since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. NIV

God's plan is that they would be made perfect together with us, wonderful
we are beholding prophecies from thousands of years , Jesus, the seed of the woman has been manifested, this is he , OF WHICH WAS SPOKEN IN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS, all things were been worked out to this grand finale, the actual manifestation of the promise of God, this was the same hope that the righteous pple of old believed and were looking out for, see 1 peter 1:10-12

now that He has come and FULFILLED everything written about him, He must be taught and told to PEOPLE OF ALL NATIONS, AS THE GOOD NEWS, this is why People like me and you must try all we can, and when THE GOSPEL HAS BEEN PREACHED TO ALL NATIONS(as a testimony to them), THEN SHALL THE END COME,

But if you are talking about Romans 2, then it is clear what the bible says, , All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law
, vs 12 NIV  , this is before Jesus, and we know that the bible says the law couldn't save any man talk less of the law of the conscience

these people were not justified by natural laws in their hearts they were by THE WORD OF GOD TO THEM WHICH THEY HEARD AND OBEYED, (FAITH COMES BY HEARING , AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD)

hope i tried?  

Employee that goes to work all week does so in the BELIEF that Employer is going to give him his wages at the end of the week.


Loverboy that jumps on a plane to travel 6000 miles to see fiancee does so in the BELIEF that he and her are truly in love.

Forex trader that dumps his dollars in order to buy Gold does so in the BELIEF that the currency will drop in value and Gold is safer.

In fact every action that a man or woman commits is backed by some belief or the other unless the person is uncertain and just taking a chance.

The guy that dropped his yansh only to fall on the floor to everybody's amusement did not do it to amuse his classmates. He believed that there was a chair there, and in fact he had seen the chair only half a second before. What he didn't count on was that one of his classmates would pull the chair from underneath him just at the point when he dropped his yaansh.

A man who leaves the security of his home to wander aimlessly through canaan does so cause he believed in El who told him to do so. 'It was counted as righteousness for him'.

Faith and belief are counted as righteousness. But pretty much everything we do is a product of our faith and belief.

The man who is paying tithes in anticipation of blessings is doing so in faith. He believes his pastor.

The man who shelters and feeds the poor is also demonstrating an act of faith. I think this separation of Faith and Works is much too contrived.

The man who professes faith from the mountaintop yet whose actions do not demonstrate the same faith is merely fooling his fellows, and possibly also himself. It is impossible for the church to be growing in Nigeria and for Nigeria and nigerians to be in the state that they are in.

Your works is a product of your faith. They are inseparable. So when we hear that faith without works is dead, really that dead faith was never really faith in the first place. Works without faith is unsustainable. Nobody can keep doing an action that they do not believe in.

So to respond to this:

JeSoul:

There are obviously people who have lived and died - and were justified in the sight of God going by these 'natural' laws in their hearts, they never heard the name Jesus or of His great sacrifice . . . what "Faith" did these people have first?

I would say that they had faith in the intimations of their heart, and it is counted to them as righteousness. Faith comes by hearing but many are hearing everyday and are professing faith, but the works do not follow. Have they really got that faith?

Other people spend all their last dime on the pastor in the faith that their bills will miraculously be paid. Maybe someone pulled the chair from underneath them in the last minute. Or maybe they didn't see this passage in Proverbs 22:

16[b]he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.[/b]

@ 5STAR

5STAR:

^^^^^.
, Dear Sista Jesoul, i haven't said the works are not at all important, but i am saying it is the FAITH that now brings about the works, FAITH first then the fruits (works) not the Works first, IT IS ACKNOWLEDGING "THE SACRIFICE OF GOD THAT SAVES" all others is just playing religion,

      they can't be separated, but in "christlikeness"  faith comes before the works, after the faith, Jesus, through the Holy Spirit begins to mold and to shape, until we become just like Him  see Gal 3: 26 and Eph. 4, esp vs 13,

The Pharisees of Jesus' days had  works, they fasted twice weekly,they gave alms, they tithed, even to the smallest things, they knew scriptures that would make some us look like kg students, Paul himself said ' "OF THE RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS OF THE LAW HE WAS BLAMELESS" Philippians 3 , (i think this was one of the reasons why Christ chose him), but after he was converted ,we all know the rest,

You are just tooo fantastic.  Ive always thought everybody understand these simple truths until I got to NL. . God bless brava.

I was just just wondering when Seyibrown will pen her Jesus and non Jesus as promised, above?

I am still young. I do not want to go grey haired and eye glasses wearing before she comes up with her show.

Hurry up, already, sis.

@ 5star

I ask again, Is it possible for one to have faith and no works? Or do the works come automatically from ones faith.

If u accept Jesus, do you have to make a conscious effort to live the kind of life he lived , or will the Holy Spirit transform you so you can do no evil?

^^^
Faith and works? that's a different thing altogether. The works only come as fruits of the salvation. The works don't lead to salvation. Many religions already teach morals, if all you have to offer about christ is moral ,then there is no difference . The regeneration on the inside which is the work of the spirit should be your concern. You teach salvation and the holyghost does the conviction. The fruits comes after salavation.

[Quote]« #83 on: Today at 06:50:43 AM »

^^^
Faith and works? that's a different thing altogether. The works only come as fruits of the salvation. The works don't lead to salvation.[/Quote]Neither is faith especially when you can do go work with it, but refuse to do any and or [neither] is blind faith; eg God is Trinity and 1 died when God Almighty is always complete, alone and never dies.



[Quote] Many religions already teach morals, if all you have to offer about christ is moral ,then there is no difference .[/Quote]What happened to those believers with Noah, without "Christ", or those believers with Abraham, or Lot, or the others that the christians always say God is only their God; Isaac and Jacob? What happened to Joseph, and his brothers and sisters? What happened with believers with Moses and Aaron, David? Let me stop here. Are these believers without "Christ' going to end up in the same place as the disbelievers who perished in the flood of Noah, or the homosexuals of Lot people, or Pharaoh and his army who perished in the flood of Moses, or Goliath who died by the Power of God through the hand of David? Where is christ in any of these? Christ was there when John was beheaded. He didnt help him. Well. He didn't help himself if he died on the tree.



[Quote]The regeneration on the inside which is the work of the spirit should be your concern. You teach salvation and the holyghost does the conviction. The fruits comes after salavation.[/Quote]This is the idea of Paul. You will not find this from Jesus. This pitiful. @Fosbel; see how Paul changed everything? This is better at between Paul and Jesus, who do you believe?

Joagbaje:

The regeneration on the inside which is the work of the spirit should be your concern. You teach salvation and the holyghost does the conviction. The fruits comes after salavation.

I have a question sir; except for those that were born into a Christian home and grew up living the Christian life (being all they know), why would anyone be willing to accept your teachings on salvation? can it be because they were told somebody died for them? or will it be because they've seen in your teachings, principles that are in sync with their value system? Will the acceptance be instantaneous or will it be driven by a period of reflections? I do agree that the motivation for acceptance will vary, e.g some people will accept your teachings because they see it as a possible solution to life problems. I am saying this because i think it's possible for the fruit to come first. An example is the story of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10.

livin:

@ 5star

I ask again, Is it possible for one to have faith and no works? Or do the works come automatically from ones faith.

If u accept Jesus, do you have to make a conscious effort to live the kind of life he lived , or will the Holy Spirit transform you so you can do no evil?

Friend,i think you know the answer to your first question,  Faith without works is not alive. James 2:17, faith by itself is not enough it must produce fruits(works)  see Matt 5:16, but i repeat in christlikeness it is faith that leads us to DO GOOD WORKS.

when a person receives Christ, one of the first things that he experiences is the love of God in his heart,this love leads him to love other humans, he knows he has been forgiven, he can forgive others also, he sees himself how he was before grace saved him "through faith", Eph 2: 8, he realizes that he is not worthy of such kindness, he now appreciates his present condition,he is grateful.
This now leads him to forgive others and love them, because he has been loved by the Lord.   

When u genuinely accept Jesus, faith in him leads u to love him and his "word", You want to keep his commandments because you love him, Yes you Make a conscious effort to live his life according to his commandment, The Holy Spirit transformation only makes it easier and reminds you of his word in the face of Temptation.

It is a process, through prayer and the word, we grow.  1 peter 2: 2, Listen, if a man has been without Christ for say 25 yrs, u and i agree that he can't be perfect immediately, but with FAITH,  a SURE AND FIRST ingredient, he begins to WORK, to become like Him

from Pastor AIO

   Nobody can keep doing an action that they do not believe in.

^^^ Is it not possible for a person who has not "known" or "received" Christ (e.g. those who have not heard about him at all or those who do not understand) to feel and know the love of God? And upon feeling and knowing the love of God, to produce the "works" i.e. to live according to the tenets of Jesus' teaching ----- even without "knowing" or "receiving" him? Please also read chapters 2 to 5 of the book of Romans carefully.

Can we really say that only those who have "publicly confessed" or who have said a "sinner's prayer" or "given their life" etc etc are the only ones in whom Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells?

Are we using our own traditions and faulty reasoning to undermine the simple enough teachings of Christ?

In these circumstances, I usually like to refer to these verses from the hymn "There's A Wideness in God's Mercy"

For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of our mind;
And the heart of the Eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.

But we make His love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify His strictness
With a zeal He will not own.

Image123:

This is tough and unpopular, but how do you read Acts 4v12?

There's no good deed that can wash away sins or change the nature of any man anywhere anytime, or make him fit for God's kingdom.
That's why it behooves true christians to preach the word, instantly in season and out of season. Instead of engaging in fruitless exercises looking for scammers and heretics that only exist in the imagination.

So many excellent responses! Lemme start with my brother 5Star,

I read your last response to me and if you don't mind I'll respond to just the last bit

5STAR:

But if you are talking about Romans 2, then it is clear what the bible says, , All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law, vs 12 NIV  , this is before Jesus, and we know that the bible says the law couldn't save any man talk less of the law of the conscience these people were not justified by natural laws in their hearts they were by THE WORD OF GOD TO THEM WHICH THEY HEARD AND OBEYED, (FAITH COMES BY HEARING , AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD)
hope i tried?   

Ah you have indeed tried jare. Let us re-consider a few things you mentioned that I bolded . . . I think you may be mixing seperate issues.

Consider a man who lives in the Amazon rainforest in one of the indigenous tribes that have still been untouched by the outside world. Like his ancestors, he has never heard of Jesus or the "word of God" or the bible but he follows the imprinted laws of God on his heart and loves his fellow man as himself. It is such a person that Romans 2 is talking about:

Romans 2 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Can you still insist that such a man cannot be justified because he has not first had this "faith" that comes by hearing the "gospel of Christ"? Is that Romans is saying? See this verse also below . . . from every nation God will accept people who do what is right:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Enigma:

^^^ [size=14pt]Is it not possible for a person who has not "known" or "received" Christ (e.g. those who have not heard about him at all or those who do not understand) to feel and know the love of God? [/size]And upon feeling and knowing the love of God, to produce the "works" i.e. to live according to the tenets of Jesus' teaching ----- even without "knowing" or "receiving" him? Please also read chapters 2 to 5 of the book of Romans carefully.

Infact it is not only possible - we see scriptural examples of it. 
 

[size=14pt]Can we really say that only those who have "publicly confessed" or who have said a "sinner's prayer" or "given their life" etc etc are the only ones in whom Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells?[/size]

Are we using our own traditions and faulty reasoning to undermine the simple enough teachings of Christ?

Infact ehn, thank you for this line. In 1Pet we learn that the Spirit of Jesus Christ has been operating and interacting with humans long long before He manifested physically in the flesh . . .
  1Pet 1: Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
Abi the spirit of Christ was only limited to a special nationality/group of people? of Jewish descent? Or do we believe the bible that says God does not show favoritism?

Sista JeSoul
The whole of Romans is harping about justification by faith in Christ Jesus, it seems you've managed to miss that. Was Cornelius justified or saved before he met Peter?

Image123:

Sista JeSoul
The whole of Romans is harping about justification by faith in Christ Jesus, it seems you've managed to miss that. Was Cornelius justified or saved before he met Peter?

Snr Brother Image,
  I will agree I have missed something if you take a shot at answering my last post to 5Star, especially the Amazonian man & Romans 2:

JeSoul:
Consider a man who lives in the Amazon rainforest in one of the indigenous tribes that have still been untouched by the outside world. Like his ancestors, he has never heard of Jesus or the "word of God" or the bible but he follows the imprinted laws of God on his heart and loves his fellow man as himself. It is such a person that Romans 2 is talking about:

Romans 2 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Can you still insist that such a man cannot be justified because he has not first had this "faith" that comes by hearing the "gospel of Christ"? Is that Romans is saying? See this verse also below . . . from every nation God will accept people who do what is right:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Romans and the entire NT (and even OT self) is all about Justification through Christ - the operative word being 'through'. The problem is our limited and flawed understanding of the totality of what this 'through Christ' really means. A man may have never 'heard of' Christ - but if as Rms 2 says - he obeys the law of God in his heart and by his conscience, such a man indeed has Christ and will be saved through Christ.

Pastor AIO:

Employee that goes to work all week does so in the BELIEF that Employer is going to give him his wages at the end of the week.

Loverboy that jumps on a plane to travel 6000 miles to see fiancee does so in the BELIEF that he and her are truly in love.

Forex trader that dumps his dollars in order to buy Gold does so in the BELIEF that the currency will drop in value and Gold is safer.

In fact every action that a man or woman commits is backed by some belief or the other unless the person is uncertain and just taking a chance.

The guy that dropped his yansh only to fall on the floor to everybody's amusement did not do it to amuse his classmates. He believed that there was a chair there, and in fact he had seen the chair only half a second before. What he didn't count on was that one of his classmates would pull the chair from underneath him just at the point when he dropped his yaansh.

A man who leaves the security of his home to wander aimlessly through canaan does so cause he believed in El who told him to do so. 'It was counted as righteousness for him'.

Faith and belief are counted as righteousness. But pretty much everything we do is a product of our faith and belief.

The man who is paying tithes in anticipation of blessings is doing so in faith. He believes his pastor.

The man who shelters and feeds the poor is also demonstrating an act of faith. I think this separation of Faith and Works is much too contrived.

The man who professes faith from the mountaintop yet whose actions do not demonstrate the same faith is merely fooling his fellows, and possibly also himself. It is impossible for the church to be growing in Nigeria and for Nigeria and nigerians to be in the state that they are in.

Your works is a product of your faith. They are inseparable. So when we hear that faith without works is dead, really that dead faith was never really faith in the first place. Works without faith is unsustainable. Nobody can keep doing an action that they do not believe in.

LOL at the examples. And the summary really is the gist of the matter.

So to respond to this:
I would say that they had faith in the intimations of their heart, and it is counted to them as righteousness.

Gbam.

Faith comes by hearing but many are hearing everyday and are professing faith, but the works do not follow. Have they really got that faith?

Infact I think we need to do a whole thread on this part alone.

What does it mean to HEAR the word of God?

Is it while sitting in church and listening to the pastor? or a transit-preacher on the bus? or the televangelists on TV? or a street-corner armageddonist? or a cd or tape with TD Jakes? Like you said, plenty people are hearing (just like the Israelites) but there is no real faith that is 'coming'.

  What does it mean to HEAR the word of God? that produces this faith?

On the flip side, there are obviously plenty people who have never 'heard' the 'word of God' preached yet managed to have faith. So is it also by the prodding and tugging as the Holy Spirit communicates and convicts a heart? and such a person 'hears' these spiritual communications and acts on them by faith? If Jesus is the word of God manifest and the Spirit of Christ has been moving and operating among men since the foundations of the world, can we say people of every tribe and nation have been 'hearing the word of God'?

What does it mean to HEAR the word of God? I'd like to see peoples thoughts on this.

Other people spend all their last dime on the pastor in the faith that their bills will miraculously be paid. Maybe someone pulled the chair from underneath them in the last minute. Or maybe they didn't see this passage in Proverbs 22:
16[b]he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.[/b]

LOL  that is my new favorite verse!  Don't you know you're supposed to 'sow into the lives' of successful mogs? so that you can 'tap into their annointing'? 

Enigma:

^^^ Is it not possible for a person who has not "known" or "received" Christ (e.g. those who have not heard about him at all or those who do not understand) to feel and know the love of God? And upon feeling and knowing the love of God, to produce the "works" i.e. to live according to the tenets of [b]Jesus' [/b]teaching ----- even without "knowing" or "receiving" him? Please also read chapters 2 to 5 of the book of Romans carefully.

Can we really say that only those who have "publicly confessed" or who have said a "sinner's prayer" or "given their life" etc etc are the only ones in whom Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells?

Are we using our own traditions and faulty reasoning to undermine the simple enough teachings of Christ?

In these circumstances, I usually like to refer to these verses from the hymn "There's A Wideness in God's Mercy"

please note:, i have chosen not to argue with anyone, we must be constructive and respect each other when we put up our opinion, the bible alone is our reference,

1)   knowing the ULTIMATE LOVE OF GOD is knowing Jesus, how can one who has not known JESUS live according to his teachings my friend?

2)  to your second question, if u have not confessed Jesus and asked him to come into your life, he would be an intruder if he lived there don't u think?, Jesus is the baptizer or sender of the holy spirit na

3)   traditions?, faulty reasoning?, we use the bible here my friend God's instruction to man, they also said Jesus was mad and had a devil

Image123:

There's no good deed that can wash away sins or change the nature of any man anywhere anytime, or make him fit for God's kingdom.
That's why it behooves true christians to preach the word, instantly in season and out of season. Instead of engaging in fruitless exercises looking for scammers and heretics that only exist in the imagination.

U have made my day friend,

JeSoul:

 So many excellent responses! Lemme start with my brother 5Star,

I read your last response to me and if you don't mind I'll respond to just the last bit Ah you have indeed tried jare. Let us re-consider a few things you mentioned that I bolded . . . I think you may be mixing seperate issues.

Consider a man who lives in the Amazon rainforest in one of the indigenous tribes that have still been untouched by the outside world. Like his ancestors, he has never heard of Jesus or the "word of God" or the bible but he follows the imprinted laws of God on his heart and loves his fellow man as himself. It is such a person that Romans 2 is talking about:

Romans 2 "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Can you still insist that such a man cannot be justified because he has not first had this "faith" that comes by hearing the "gospel of Christ"? Is that Romans is saying? See this verse also below . . . from every nation God will accept people who do what is right:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

to the last statement first, Acts 10:34, What is the proof of God's acceptance of  Cornelius, the angel , he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.  Remember Cornelius would have been a proselyte most likely, but HE STILL NEEDED TO HEAR ABOUT JESUS, your man in the Amazon rainforest wouldn't have known the law?  HE WOULD HAVE HIS OWN GODS sister, because MAN IS A FAITH BEING, WE MUST BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, so this man wouldn't have righteousness by the LAW to even start with, no matter how "righteous" he is, he would still be an enemy of God because, THE WORD OF GOD CAME TO ABRAHAM THAT THROUGH HIS "SEED" HE SHALL BE HEIR OF THE WORLD   Romans 4:13, so your man in the rainforest   can't even be righteous

Acts 17:30, in the past God overlooked , but now commands all TO REPENT

This is the reason Christ is yet to come, so that the Gospel would be preached to all  and then shall the end come,

I REST MY CASE THIS TIME , NO MORE ON THIS OH,

^5Star, oga you still never touch the center of my question now . . .

Please can you give us your explanation of the Amazonian man & Romans 2:14

(Indeed, when Gentiles (like our amazonian man), who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Biko, what happens to people who have never been fortunate to hear about Jesus and His sacrifice? but fit the good bill in Paul's description above? Notice also that he ends by saying God will judge them based on how they followed these laws on their hearts. Gracias bro.