Image123:

@all
i'm a little confused, or maybe i'm not. Just to confirm, is it that anyone's saying that the works of Cornelius was acceptable before God? If in the affirmative, please quote the verse to this effect, thanks.

  I'm confused. Are you asking for a verse that says "and God accepted the works of Cornelius"?  That he was talked about in positively glowing terms as ¹God-fearing, ²Loving towards his fellow man, ³Gifts went up as an offering before God (doesn't that mean God accepted them/him?) etc etc those ones no do you? 

I'm confused. Are you asking for a verse that says "and God accepted the works of Cornelius"?   That he was talked about in positively glowing terms as 1God-fearing, 2Loving towards his fellow man, 3Gifts went up as an offering before God (doesn't that mean God accepted them/him?) etc etc those ones no do you?

Yes my sista, i'm asking for the verse that says God accepted Cornelius' works as it seems that was the general agreement on page 6 of this thread. i don't know much about those glowing terms o, but i don't think they say that God accepted him/them. Compare,
2Kings 17:41  So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this day.
Mat 19:19  Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 19:20  The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Plus the people that gave alms at the beautiful gate and the hypocrites that Jesus said that they gave alms. Can we conclude that these people(or their works) were acceptable to God? i'm not sure, but what i'm sure of is that righteousness, God's own righteousness in Christ is acceptable before God, and i can show verses that say.

Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18  For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 15:16  That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Eph 5:9  (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10  Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

That's the little i know o, and we know that righteousness is Jesus.
Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Image123:

Yes my sista, i'm asking for the verse that says God accepted Cornelius' works as it seems that was the general agreement on page 6 of this thread. i don't know much about those glowing terms o, but i don't think they say that God accepted him/them.

Acts 10: 4 "Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked. The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.

So is it possible that God only 'noticed' Cornelius' works? they only 'went up as an offering for God to just see - but not accept him? or God only accepted the offerings but not Cornelius himself? (is that possible?)

You posted random verses culled from various contexts - lets stick to just Cornelius so we don't muddy the waters. But in any case all the scriptures you quoted are not under antagonism because I have not disputed (nor anyone else on this thread I've noticed) that men will be saved only through Jesus. You seem to be stuck on 'works' . . . whereas I've been talking about works borne from faith - which is what Cornelius had. There are indeed some trusting in their works to save them - we all agree they will be sorely disappointed.

Jesus said in Matt 7
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17[b] Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.[/b] 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."
Cornelius:
1- Feared God
2- Loved his fellow man and looked after the poor

  Jesus said, "no bad tree can produce good fruit, and no good tree can produce bad fruit". If it produces good fruit, then it is a good tree and vice versa. What is the greatest commandment? Jesus said "¹ Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and ²love your neighbor as yourself" . . . both conditions Cornelius was said to have done. How can a bad tree produce such good fruit?

Cornelius is not being saved of his own righteousness by works . . . but of his faith - which resulted in works and it was credited to him as righteousness. The spirit of Christ did not begin moving and working among men after Calvary - but rather stretches both forward and backward in time - justifying as many who would believe in God, and believe enough to result in good deeds. Every man will be saved one way or another 'through' the righteousness of Jesus Christ - that point has never been in dispute! Where we dare not draw dimensions in the sand and set-up parameters by which a man can be saved in our limited understanding is what constitutes this[i] "through Jesus Christ". [/i] You may believe a man has to hear and recite a confession of faith in Christ to be saved - whereas God has already seen the faith in his heart (even though such a man never heard about Jesus) and declared him righteous (just like He did Abraham, Rahab & others) - through & by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ which was done "once for all men" (Heb 10).

Let me ask one question. By what standard will men who didn't get to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ be judged?   Faith? works? a combination of the two? the OT Law? The Law written on their hearts? Their conscience?

@JeSoul
i don't have all the answers, i'm not sure anyone does. As much as i feel for others and wish we all are in God's 'good books' and i sympathize with all who don't get to hear the gospel like i've done a thousand times, i'm not sure its going to end like my wish. Why? i'm lookING for that wish in the Bible and i'm not found it. Do i base their fate on the PROBABILITY that Cornelius was accepted before Peter saw him? Well, i wish them all the best on judgement day, i'm not the judge and what i feel or opine is not too important in this.

JeSoul:


Let me ask one question. By what standard will men who didn't get to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ be judged?   Faith? works? a combination of the two? the OT Law? The Law written on their hearts? Their conscience?

That's different , the question was about cornelius salvation. At what point did he get saved. The answer is simple. He got saved when he received the gospel preached by Peter. Of course he was a good man ,devout to the Jewish religion,seeking God with good heart. But with all his religiosity, he was not born again. Been born again is not about making heaven. It's a change of spiritual state in the now. A man receiving eternal life. If cornelius had died without meeting Peter . He may have futuristic salvation after judgement . He good and the bad will be weighed . And he may be saved if damned. But the christian won't go through that judgement.

remember the direction of your focus at the opening of the thread. Which suggest that a man can be saved by learning the lifestyle of Jesus teaching without receiving the Jesus life. Morality saves no man . Because people of other faiths have moral values. And that's why people get the idea that you are preaching salvation by works.

Image123:

@JeSoul
i don't have all the answers, i'm not sure anyone does. As much as i feel for others and wish we all are in God's 'good books' and i sympathize with all who don't get to hear the gospel like i've done a thousand times, i'm not sure its going to end like my wish. Why? i'm lookING for that wish in the Bible and i'm not found it. Do i base their fate on the PROBABILITY that Cornelius was accepted before Peter saw him? Well, i wish them all the best on judgement day, i'm not the judge and what i feel or opine is not too important in this.

Snr brother, no qualms jare. I really appreciate this here above. The fact that we all have a very limited grasp of what God can do is something we all need to remind ourselves of daily.

---

@Joagbaje,
You self. I posed a few questions to you on previous pages. You vanish and then reappear after the dust has settled and people have 'forgotten'. Dat one na your style abi?  Anyways . . .

Joagbaje:

That's different , the question was about cornelius salvation. At what point did he get saved. The answer is simple. He got saved when he received the gospel preached by Peter.

No problem. That na your opinion and it is well respected.

Of course he was a good man ,devout to the Jewish religion,seeking God with good heart. But with all his religiosity, he was not born again. Been born again is not about making heaven. It's a change of spiritual state in the now. A man receiving eternal life. If cornelius had died without meeting Peter . He may have futuristic salvation after judgement . He good and the bad will be weighed . And he may be saved if damned. But the christian won't go through that judgement.

Hmm . . . the implications of this your quote here.

So salvation is a multi-step process abi? There are different stages/requirements - being 'born again'   is different from 'making heaven' and is different from being 'acceptable to God' and is different from 'receiving eternal life' and is different from 'futuristic salvation after judgement'.

  Abeg do small explain to us which one be "futuristic salvation after judgement"?

remember the direction of your focus at the opening of the thread. Which suggest that a man can be saved by learning the lifestyle of Jesus teaching without receiving the Jesus life. Morality saves no man . Because people of other faiths have moral values. And that's why people get the idea that you are preaching salvation by works.

No mr Jo, "people" did not get any idea like that - just you - because if you have read the thread at all you will have noticed practically every post of mine (and Enigma & PastorAIO) have consistently and clearly said salvation can never come by "works" or "morality".

  Again I told you READ THE POSTS CLEARLY and stop injecting your own bias and seeing things that are not there - you still no wan gree.

JeSoul:

@Joagbaje,
You self. I posed a few questions to you on previous pages. You vanish and then reappear after the dust has settled and people have 'forgotten'. Dat one na your style abi? 

I didn't see your questions. I didn't even see this last post of yours , I just searched for the thread again.

So salvation is a multi-step process abi? There are different stages/requirements - being 'born again'   is different from 'making heaven' and is different from being 'acceptable to God' and is different from 'receiving eternal life' and is different from 'futuristic salvation after judgement'.

Precisely , being born again is a spiritual rebirth, a change of nature from humanity to divinity, a recreation of the human spirit. This change makes a man part of Gods family. He doesn't need to try to make heaven . He is already a heavenly being. The christian race is not about making heaven, it's about perfection. We run a race into perfection or maturity. When a christian refuse to grow, other evils can come in. And some may even loose that which they have.

 

Abeg do small explain to us which one be "futuristic salvation after judgement"?

Those who had rejected the gospel will be judged by it ,but We have some other people  who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel, they won't be judge by the gospel. They will be judged by other standards e.g the conscience. Some will be saved in the end. But they were never born again while on earth. They died with the sin nature.

[quote][/quote]

Jo and his outrageous claims, anyways na CE marketing style be dat sha.

Joagbaje:

I didn't see your questions. I didn't even see this last post of yours , I just searched for the thread again.

Okay sir, no problem.

Precisely , being born again is a spiritual rebirth, a change of nature from humanity to divinity, a recreation of the human spirit. This change makes a man part of Gods family. He doesn't need to try to make heaven . He is already a heavenly being. The christian race is not about making heaven, it's about perfection. We run a race into perfection or maturity. When a christian refuse to grow, other evils can come in. And some may even loose that which they have.

At first blush I could not make head or tail of this^ . . . but after a second reading I think I understand what you're saying though I think you're muddying the waters . . .

Born again - yes, agreed it is a spiritual rebirth.
'Christian race' (as you put it) - growing and maturing in the faith and teachings of Jesus

No disagreements there. But your application (and eventually implication) of these terms is what is problematic. I will ask one question to demonstrate why: Was Abraham 'born again'? Did he run a 'christian race'? Will he too be in the kingdom of God? and to further illustrate the problem with your quote:

Joagbaje:
Those who had rejected the gospel will be judged by it ,but We have some other people  who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel, they won't be judge by the gospel. They will be judged by other standards e.g the conscience. Some will be saved in the end. But they were never born again while on earth. They died with the sin nature.

Hmmm . . . this is a very big problem considering Jesus said "Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

  So how can people that were never born again on earth suddenly be 'saved' in heaven with this 'futuristic salvation at judgement'? (Note Jesus did not make distinctions btw wether such a man heard/did not hear the gospel, He simply said a man must be born again). So if a man must be born again to enter the KOH, then how will the saints of old get in since according to your doctrine they were never 'born again' either? Perhaps the problem is with your definition of what it means to be 'born again'?

JeSoul:

. I will ask one question to demonstrate why: Was Abraham 'born again'? Did he run a 'christian race'? Will he too be in the kingdom of God? and to further illustrate the problem with your quote:

Abraham became born again at the redirection of christ. All the old testament saints Got born again ,Jesus resurrected with them. Even though they were saved nominally according to the law. But their sin nature wasn't changed. No body could be born again until the blood of Jesus was shed. When he died and rose. H gave birth to the new creation. And all the saints of old became part of the new creation. They ascended with him.

Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Hmmm . . . this is a very big problem considering Jesus said "Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Seeing the kingdom and entering the kingdom is mostly misunderstood to be "heaven" the kingdom is a place in christ . Jesus wasnt talking about going to heaven .he is talking about life on earth . We are in the kingdom now.

Colossians 1:13
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So how can people that were never born again on earth suddenly be 'saved' in heaven with this 'futuristic salvation at judgement'?

That's the reason for the White throne judgement. It's not for Christians . It's for the people of all nations.

(Note Jesus did not make distinctions btw wether such a man heard/did not hear the gospel, He simply said a man must be born again). So if a man must be born again to enter the KOH, then how will the saints of old get in since according to your doctrine they were never 'born again' either? Perhaps the problem is with your definition of what it means to be 'born again'?

Some men of old heard the gospel when Jesus went to hell or sheoul.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Joagbaje:

Abraham became born again at the redirection of christ. All the old testament saints Got born again ,Jesus resurrected with them. Even though they were saved nominally according to the law. But their sin nature wasn't changed. No body could be born again until the blood of Jesus was shed. When he died and rose. H gave birth to the new creation. And all the saints of old became part of the new creation. They ascended with him.

  Hmmm . . . okay oh. We're going to have to leave the cards on the table. I think there is a fundamental flaw in your definition of what it means to be 'born again'. The Spirit of Christ has been operating in the hearts of men 'since the foundations of the world' and transforming them - not just since the physical manifestation on Calvary. God is not limited by our perception of time sir. To be born again is not a matter of reciting a confession - but rather one of the heart which God almighty recognizes and declares as 'righteous' - just as Romans 2 tells us.
     

Matthew 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Seeing the kingdom and entering the kingdom is mostly misunderstood to be "heaven" the kingdom is a place in christ . Jesus wasnt talking about going to heaven .he is talking about life on earth . We are in the kingdom now.

Colossians 1:13
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

That's the reason for the White throne judgement. It's not for Christians . It's for the people of all nations.

Some men of old heard the gospel when Jesus went to hell or sheoul.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The rest of your post is a matter of interpretation . . . I think I have actually discussed this a bit with you in the past. I appreciate you took the time to address it, though I disagree . One last bit though . . .

   You had previously said "being born again is a spiritual rebirth, a change of nature from humanity to divinity, a recreation of the human spirit" . . . which I agreed with. If being born again is as you say, how is it that God's spirit was able to dwell with certain men in the OT without them being 'born again'? So God would have them 'justified' to a certain degree but not 'fully born again'?  The OT tells us Enoch was so close to God that God "took him" . . . where would you suppose Enoch is now since he too was never 'born again'?  (somehow I expect you to say he too was also one of those Jesus preached to? )

JeSoul:

  Hmmm . . . okay oh. We're going to have to leave the cards on the table. I think there is a fundamental flaw in your definition of what it means to be 'born again'. The Spirit of Christ has been operating in the hearts of men 'since the foundations of the world' and transforming them - not just since the physical manifestation on Calvary.

What is the spirit of christ? no other person than the holygost. Or is there any other spirt?

Ephesians 4:4
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

God is not limited by our perception of time sir. To be born again is not a matter of reciting a confession - but rather one of the heart which God almighty recognizes and declares as 'righteous' - just as Romans 2 tells us.

I never said otherwise ma.

     

 You had previously said "being born again is a spiritual rebirth, a change of nature from humanity to divinity, a recreation of the human spirit" . . . which I agreed with. If being born again is as you say, how is it that God's spirit was able to dwell with certain men in the OT without them being 'born again'?

God spirit didn't dwell in them in the sense of new testament in dwelling. The word "in" may be used in a generic way. But if you compare scriptures we will see the reality.

The spirit of man was dead in sin . And God couldn't occupy a dead sprit . The spirit of God only comes on them and leaves but did not dwell in them. Remember the disciples of christ healed people before Jesus went to the cross. It's based on the same principles . The holyghost was with them but was not in them.

John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Earlier on in the thread, I made the point that those who say tithing is for today because it predated the law through Abram/Abraham really would have to accept that "born again" also predated the law through Abram/Abraham. EDIT (and again) see here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-720610.96.html#msg8867964

Now here is an example of Joagbaje's duplicity, while he continues to deny that Abraham was "born again" and that "born again" predated the law through Abram/Abraham, he praises an article which says that tithing is for today because of Abram/Abraham. BUT then that very article also says essentially that Abraham was "born again" - even though the article uses salvation by faith/grace instead of expressly saying "born again".

See https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.320.html#msg8986187 and http://www.keithhunt.com/Tithe2.html


Here are a few quotes from the article:

The basic truths of the WAY TO SALVATION by grace through
faith have always been there in the Word from the beginning. In
the process of time when that grace and faith was made manifest
to Israel and the world through God who came as flesh and blood
in the form of Jesus Christ, Paul was used to proclaim that truth
more than any other single man in recorded detail for the New
Testament scriptures.

It was not surprising then that when apostles like Paul came
along and started to preach Jesus as the Messiah, and that
salvation was not through ANY works but by GRACE through FAITH in
Christ Jesus, there would arise a certain OPPOSITION from
certain religious Jews.  When Paul preached that "circumcision
was nothing, and uncircumcision was nothing" there would bound to
be opposition from some Jews.

Paul had to DEFEND the truth of his teaching with the truth
FROM the WORD of the Lord.  He had to painstakingly proves from
the Scriptures of old that GRACE and FAITH to be saved came
BEFORE the Old Covenant with its Tabernacle, priesthood and
sacrifices. [b]He had to prove also that grace and faith to
salvation came BEFORE circumcision. [/b]This he did in large portions
of the letter to the ROMANS and his letter to the GALATIANS.
     And one of the most important EXAMPLES he could possibly
give to the Jews especially, as that of THEIR FATHER ABRAHAM!!

Paul proved in his writing that Abraham was JUSTIFIED by God
through FAITH, and that BEFORE he was introduced to the rite of
circumcision by God for him and his seed. Abraham Paul showed,
found the true way to salvation BEFORE circumcision, BEFORE the
Old Covenant with Israel, BEFORE the tabernacle, priesthood and
sacrificial system was given to Israel through Moses. Paul argued
that what came AFTER could not annual what came BEFORE.
     Abraham is held up by Paul and the entire New Covenant as
the FATHER OF THE FAITHFUL, that "if you are Christ's then are
you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise"
(Gal.3:29).
     Jesus told the Jews that if they were really the children of
Abraham then they
ould do the WORKS of Abraham (John 8:39).

So if you say tithing is for today because it predated the law through Abram/Abraham, integrity demands that you also accept that "born again" ALSO predated the law through Abram/Abraham!

Joagbaje:
     
God spirit didn't dwell in them in the sense of new testament in dwelling. The word "in" may be used in a generic way. But if you compare scriptures we will see the reality.

The spirit of man was dead in sin . And God couldn't occupy a dead sprit . The spirit of God only comes on them and leaves but did not dwell in them. Remember the disciples of christ healed people before Jesus went to the cross. It's based on the same principles . The holyghost was with them but was not in them.
John 14:17
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Oga sir, I'm afraid you're going to have to do a little bit better than the above. "The spirit was with them not in them"?   

Just one verse from the OT, Ex 31: 1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills
 
I said the spirit of Christ/Holy Spirit/God's spirit has always been moving and transforming the hearts of men - to which you said you agreed. If you now say it was impossible for the spirit of God to ever dwell or be 'in' a man prior to Christ then that's a bit of a problem. Men like Abraham, David (a man after God's own heart self) merely had the Holy Spirit visit them and leave but not  dwell in them?    hmmmm . . . .

The point I was trying to make is that you're approaching the sacrifice of Jesus in a very rigid, and especially linear way. The power of Calvary stretches both forward and backward in time, echoing through every nation, culture and even religion - and is not limited to time as we understand it - justifying as many who believed in God and had faith which produced good works. Abraham did not have to 'wait' to till Christ rose again before he was 'born again' and officially 'acceptable' in the sight of God (though he and the rest of us are waiting to receive completely the promise as Hebrews teaches) - the sacrifice of Christ (slain from the foundations of the world) already justified him and many others.

Gal 3:8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 

Rom 4 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” . . . We have been saying that[b] Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! [/b] 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Abraham's faith was credited (please note the past tense) to him as righteousness even before he was circumcised, a righteousness that was bought by Christ's blood. And if the gospel was 'announced in advance to him' what does this tell us? Does this impact your mordernist defintion of what it means to be 'born again'?

---

Enigma:

Earlier on in the thread, I made the point that those who say tithing is for today because it predated the law through Abram/Abraham really would have to accept that "born again" also predated the law through Abram/Abraham. EDIT (and again) see here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-720610.96.html#msg8867964

Now here is an example of Joagbaje's duplicity, while he continues to deny that Abraham was "born again" and that "born again" predated the law through Abram/Abraham, he praises an article which says that tithing is for today because of Abram/Abraham. BUT then that very article also says essentially that Abraham was "born again" - even though the article uses salvation by faith/grace instead of expressly saying "born again".

See https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-739830.320.html#msg8986187 and http://www.keithhunt.com/Tithe2.html


Here are a few quotes from the article:


So if you say tithing is for today because it predated the law through Abram/Abraham, integrity demands that you also accept that "born again" ALSO predated the law through Abram/Abraham!

Lol  Detective Enigma! lol oya oga Jo, please address this as well.

@Jesoul

JeSoul:

Oga sir, I'm afraid you're going to have to do a little bit better than the above. "The spirit was with them not in them"?   

Just one verse from the OT, Ex 31: 1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills
 
I said the spirit of Christ/Holy Spirit/God's spirit has always been moving and transforming the hearts of men - to which you said you agreed. If you now say it was impossible for the spirit of God to ever dwell or be 'in' a man prior to Christ then that's a bit of a problem. Men like Abraham, David (a man after God's own heart self) merely had the Holy Spirit visit them and leave but not  dwell in them?    hmmmm . . . .

The spirit Of God came upon them for a specific purpose. The reason God or the holy spirit could not dwell in them was because their spirit was still dead. God does not dwell in human bodies but in human spirit. But the human spirit had to be regenerated by the new birth for God or the holy spirit to dwell in. If a man if a man talks inteligrntly we say he has inlteligence, if a man talks wisely we say he has wisdom. So when the spirit if God manifest through a man , it is assumed the spirit resides in him. The influence of the spirit came on them even on their bodies but not dwelling in their spirits . No man could recieve the indwelling presence of God or the holy spirit until Jesus died.


John 7:39
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:17
. . .Even the Spirit of truth. . . but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2 Corinthians 6:16
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God makes these utterances with regards to the new covenant. If men could be born again without the death of christ and the shedding of his blood, christ would not need to die. His death would be vain.

The point I was trying to make is that you're approaching the sacrifice of Jesus in a very rigid, and especially linear way. The power of Calvary stretches both forward and backward in time, echoing through every nation, culture and even religion - and is not limited to time as we understand it - justifying as many who believed in God and had faith which produced good works. Abraham did not have to 'wait' to till Christ rose again before he was 'born again' and officially 'acceptable' in the sight of God (though he and the rest of us are waiting to receive completely the promise as Hebrews teaches) - the sacrifice of Christ (slain from the foundations of the world) already justified him and many others.

So why would Jesus die? . It's been ordained but it won't be of effect until Jesus comes and die. Abraham believed what God said. But that doesn't change anything. He was still spiritually dead. From Adam to Moses all of them were spiritually dead.

Romans 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


The life is in christ. Even though they believed in him who is to come (by the way ,every Jew believed in the messiah to come , not just few.) but he still had to die , if he didn't die, there would be no life. Let me as you. If jesus hadn't died, what is mans hope?

Abraham's faith was credited (please note the past tense) to him as righteousness even before he was circumcised, a righteousness that was bought by Christ's blood. And if the gospel was 'announced in advance to him' what does this tell us? Does this impact your mordernist defintion of what it means to be 'born again'?

If Im a presidential aspirants and I have ideal and values different from the corruption. And I look out for those who would by my ideals and many believe . And I promise them positions as ministers omminssioners , chief judge etc. because the believe. Does that change anything? I still need to win an election , I still need to be sworn in. If not , there is no difference. they cant be ministers or chief judge etc until I get sworn in. Remember that a Will cannot be of effect until the person who wrote the will dies. A Will is a Testament , Jesus had to die first for man to possess life by the new Testament

Hebrews 9:16-17
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

They had to wait for our kiingdom before the became perfect .The new creation was not born Until jesus rose from the dead and very one who believed in him ,past present and future became a new creation . Thats why the bible says the old yestaments saints could not be perfect on their own without us. They didn't obtain the promise .

Hebrews 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Problem with too many Christians is that they are all talk but no power to effect change in
a persons life,

Now this video below is just a Normal Guy that Believes in Jesus and is showing Gods love
to people through Gods Power to effect change in their lives

Watch close this is real

[flash=200,200]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o_YuLoB-oI&feature=related[/flash]

I know there a real growing of legs and there is an unreal trick that Satan use to rubbish the body of christ. I dont mind to ha e the link to know more about him.

@ Jo, You said it all. Well done. 

@ Jesoul & Enigma,

"Abraham believed God & it was couted to him for rigtheousness" This did not make him (Abraham) born again. And Jesus Christ, , the first begotten from the dead (Rev. 1;5). Jesus was the first to be born again.
Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again,  by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1Pet 1;3). When you confess the Lord ship of Jesus, there is a re-birth of your spirit by the glory of the father Rom 6;4 therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life.

To point out the relevance of what is preached (Jesus or conversion) to people in 'restrictive societies' as the original article starting this thread, I would like to point you to this thread by frosbel:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-745991.0.html.

Sorry to bring the matter up again!

@Seyibrown; you told me weeks ago that you will write about your Jesus as if he will be different from the incomplete knowledge-d and powerless one on the pages of the bibles. what happened?

Micuilles:

@ Jesoul & Enigma,

"Abraham believed God & it was couted to him for rigtheousness" This did not make him (Abraham) born again.

If Abraham was mot born again then you are calling Jesus Christ a liar?

Micuilles:
And Jesus Christ, , the first begotten from the dead (Rev. 1;5). Jesus was the first to be born again.

That Jesus was begotten from the dead does not mean Jesus was "born again". Go and study these things properly.

Micuilles:

@ Jo, You said it all. Well done. 

You appear and dissapear.

@ Jesoul & Enigma,

"Abraham believed God & it was couted to him for rigtheousness" This did not make him (Abraham) born again. And Jesus Christ, , the first begotten from the dead (Rev. 1;5). Jesus was the first to be born again.
Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again,  by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1Pet 1;3). When you confess the Lord ship of Jesus, there is a re-birth of your spirit by the glory of the father Rom 6;4 therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life.

Pls hammer the truth .  .  If Abraham and david were born again , what was their soul still doing in hell.  ( Hades)

Acts 2:25-32
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

@ Jo,

Happy Sunday sir. I'm back.

@ Enigma,

Stop aguing so loudly without scriptural proofs. Abraham could not have been born again because Jesus had not come, died & ressurected. The one who's born again recieves by faith, the life Jesus had after he was ressurected from the dead by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, check the meaning of the word BEGOTTEN, it means to beget i.e. to bear a child. That's why in Acts 13;33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written ,  thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ My children were begotten to me as i am who begot them when i performing the act of begetting by sleeping with their mother.

is there another way to have a true child?

is there another way to beget a child?

if there is someone may still be able to beget me, still.

i may just be able to just beget a 45 year old child for me today, still.

@ necta,

Exactly, you just hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what the religious pharisee Nichodemus asked our Lord Jesus. Can a man go back into his mother's womb & be born again?

Jesus said he that is born of the spirit is spirit. Now, being born again is being born by the Spirit of God. Normally, this will be hard for you to understand because you're a muslim. That's why people refer to you as carnal. The first thing you should do is Believe that Jesus (the word of God) was made flesh & dwelt amongst men. He died & resurrected on the third day. Your believing & confessing him as your Lord can only be done if you hae the holy spirit in you. That's why the christian is different.

I have hope for you because I've met several muslims who believed & are now preaching Jesus. Try it, you'll discover that the clog/vail covering your eyes will be taking away. 1Cor 3:7-. A man has to be born twice, first by his parents & then by God's spirit.

@micuilles; « #216 on: Today at 02:26:18 PM »
[Quote]@ necta,

Exactly, you just hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what the religious pharisee Nichodemus asked our Lord Jesus. Can a man go back into his mother's womb & be born again?[/Quote]i didn't ask the same question. all i said was i don't have to have sex with a woman, getting her pregnant before the child is begotten to me, i will be right if i say a 45 year old man is my begotten son. i know it is a lie, but are free to accept it as absolute truth.



[Quote]Jesus said he that is born of the spirit is spirit. Now, being born again is being born by the Spirit of God. Normally, this will be hard for you to understand because you're a muslim. That's why people refer to you as carnal. The first thing you should do is Believe that Jesus (the word of God) was made flesh & dwelt amongst men.[/Quote]the bold is blind faith, which is foreign to me. and all your being spiritually born, you have failed to articulate to me the personal name of the holy spirit, though you seem to be saying that he is an angel, and what he had taught which Jesus did not teach you. how are you born by the spirit, if not the way Jesus was born out of Mary, then the holy spirit has made it easy for dad to actually be your father. unless Jesus was reborn, again, then your condition is better than that of Jesus. how is it that you are born by the spirit, sparing mom while Mary had to get the whole full monty?



[Quote] He died & resurrected on the third day.[/Quote]please calculate 3 days and 3 nights for me from Friday almost sunset to Sunday before dawn? you are oversimplifying it when you said third day, because the truth is in the details; 3 days and 3 night is what it supposed to be and not just the third day. Paul is moving the post ever so slightly.



[Quote] Your believing & confessing him as your Lord can only be done if you hae the holy spirit in you.[/Quote]confessing to confusion is not my cup of tea.and i dont believe what you believe it cant even explain with all the holy spirit in you, leading you.



[Quote] That's why the christian is different.[/Quote]So far you have tried. You have came close to defining the holy spirit by saying that he spoke to hajar. You you have not named the angel. i need a name please. You then made a 180 degree turn about asking me to close my eyes and believe what does not make sense. that is very unfair.

I have hope for you because I've met several muslims who believed & are now preaching Jesus. Try it, you'll discover that the clog/vail covering your eyes will be taking away. 1Cor 3:7-. A man has to be born twice, first by his parents & then by God's spirit.

Micuilles:

@ Jo,

Happy Sunday sir. I'm back.

@ Enigma,

Stop aguing so loudly without scriptural proofs. Abraham could not have been born again because Jesus had not come, died & ressurected. The one who's born again recieves by faith, the life Jesus had after he was ressurected from the dead by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, check the meaning of the word BEGOTTEN, it means to beget i.e. to bear a child. That's why in Acts 13;33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written ,  thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.

If you read post no #118 and #204 to proper comprehension, you will see that you really don't know what you are talking about and should take time out to devote to proper study.

Again, I say also that if you say Abraham was not born again, then you are calling Jesus a liar.

Jesus said unless a person is born again he shall not see the kingdom of God.

The same Jesus said we shall see this same Abraham in the kingdom of God.

So how are you going to see a person who was not "born again" in the kingdom of God ---- unless you are calling Jesus a liar?

[Quote]have hope for you because I've met several muslims who believed & are now preaching Jesus. Try it, you'll discover that the clog/vail covering your eyes will be taking away.[/Quote]I'm no fool. I test everything and if its not of sound quality, i throw it away.


[Quote] 1Cor 3:7-. A man has to be born twice, first by his parents & then by God's spirit.[/Quote]Jesus was born, one time. every one who was before this concept of 2 births was born one time. The author of 1 Cor3;7 is making things up and i can't make up.

^^^ Baba Sweet, no vex jare! Got very busy and I didn't have time for this thread for a week or so. I think others answered your questions, if I hadn't myself answered them in previous posts on other threads. Answering/asking the same questions again and again isn't good for one's health!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i am yet to know the Jesus that is different from the pages of the Bible.
The one on the pages of the bible, if one looks at his good quality, one finds a prophet of God.

if one pays attention to his bad manners, one sees a despicable person, being shrouded falsely as higher authority.

finally, no one has told me the name of the holy spirit that christians say makes all things clear, while i still hear them say that spiritual things are mystery.

thyr