Pastor AIO:

Can you give me some examples of things that Jesus taught that do not apply to the church? 
What is the criteria for determining whether it can apply to the church or whether it can't. 

Joagbaje:

well For example
Mark 13:6
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This scripture has been used many times to attack gospel ministers but it's not making reference to the church. But rather jews in the tribulation. And there  issues like that don't  relate to the church directly but are general though.

But  that's a derail from your defence.  You've still not enlightened me enough on how a man of other faith can adopt the teaching of christ.

Rabbinical literature

The rabbis as a whole consider that the expression refers to the desecration of the Temple by the erection of a Zeus statue in its sacred precincts by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.[4][5] Some rabbis, however, see in it an allusion to Manasseh, who, as related in II Chron. xxxiii. 7, set up "a carved image … in the house of God".[6] The Aggadah narrates that two statues were erected, one of which fell over upon the other and broke off its hand. Upon the severed hand the following inscription was found engraved: "I sought to destroy God's house, but Thou didst lend Thy hand to its protection".[7]
[edit] Modern Biblical scholarship

The 1 Maccabees usage of the term points to the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the mid-2nd century BC. Specifically, he set up an altar to Zeus in the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and sacrificed swine on it around the year 167 BC. Many modern scholars believe that Daniel 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11 are a prophecy after the event (or vaticinium ex eventu) relating to Antiochus.[8][9] (see Dating of the Book of Daniel).

Many modern Biblical scholars[10] conclude that Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are prophecies after the event about the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Roman general Titus[11] (see Dating of the Gospel of Mark).

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city." Luke 21:20-21

[edit] Preterism

Preterist Christian commentators believe that Jesus quoted this prophecy in Mark 13:14 as referring to an event in his "1st century disciples'" immediate future, such as the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.[12][13]

when you (Jesus' 1st cent. disciples) see the abomination of desolation standing…then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains", Mark 13:14

Some commentators, such as Church Father St. Chrysostom, have understood this to refer to the armies that surrounded Jerusalem and the factions fighting within it which preceded the destruction of the city.[2] In St. Luke's version of Jesus' warning, the abomination is not mentioned, and the sign that it is time to flee Jerusalem is explicitly said to be that Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies.

Jeffrey White delivered a sermon at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City called "Living in the Last Days", in which he argues the "abomination" refers to the conquering Roman invaders in 70AD marching their flag standards into the Temple and into the Holy of Holies and proceeding to worship their God Caesar's image that was emblazoned on their standard. It was Caesar and his invading army responsible for the desolation of Jerusalem.[citation needed]

One commentator relates the prophecy to the actions of Caligula c. 40 AD when he ordered that a golden statue depicting himself as Zeus incarnate be set up in the Temple in Jerusalem.[14] This prospect however, never came into fruition since he was assassinated in 41 AD along with his wife and daughter.[15]

Some scholars, including Hermann Detering[16] see it as another vaticinium ex eventu about Emperor Hadrian's attempt to install the statue of Jupiter Capitolinus on the site of the ruined Jewish Temple in Jerusalem leading to the Bar Kokhba rebellion of 132-135 AD.

Peter Bolt, head of New Testament at Moore Theological College, believes that the Abomination of Desolation in Mark 13 refers to the crucifixion of the Son of God; in other words, Jesus is referring to his own impending death at the hands of the Gentiles.[17]
[edit] Futurism

Some other interpreters with a futurist perspective think that Jesus' prophecy deals with a literal, end-times Antichrist.

Futurist Christians consider the "Abomination of Desolation" prophecy of Daniel mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 as referring to an event in the end time future, when a 7 year peace treaty will be signed between Israel and a world ruler called "the man of lawlessness", or the "Antichrist" affirmed by the writings of the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians.

Premillenialism-style futurists like Arthur Pink in his classic work The Antichrist[18] attribute vast portions within the Old and New Testament to this future figure.

livin:

my question about this is if i believe 1, 2, 3 and 4 , will applying Jesus' teachings come automatilcally?

Pastor AIO:

Thank, however you have not given me the criteria yet.  But while you're still bringing that one out let us make a study of what you've offered above.

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

I believe that you are saying that the events that Jesus was talking about occurred around the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  However there are a number of points I would like to draw to your attention.  

First, it is both the Church and Jews in general that are concerned with the coming of the messiah/christ.  Not just specifically the Jews.

Second, Jesus makes reference to certain meteorological events that did not occur during the siege of Jerusalem.  Unless you want to interprete those events are being merely symbolic.  (the darkening moon, and falling stars etc).

Thirdly,  The Son of man will come in the clouds in great power and glory. I cannot imagine how you can consider such an event to be irrelevant to the Church.  Would you say that this event occurred in 70AD.  

I must tell you that I don't agree with your conclusion that Jesus' warnings about false christs and false prophets do not apply to us today.  In fact all we've got to do is look around to see the proliferation of false claims.  

Please check this out for further study on the various understandings of the text from Daniel and Jesus' prophecy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_Desolation

There are 3 possible events, and each are problematic.  

1)  Daniel was referring to when Antiochus would set up a statue of Zeus in the temple and sacrifice a pig to it.  This is an event that actually happened and is probably the worst sacrilege that the temple has ever suffered.

Problem:  It happened before Jesus' time so Jesus was either referring to a repeat of the same event, or something else.

2)  When Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

Problem:  Jesus ties the event with the coming of the Son of Man in Glory.  And he mentions meteorological events.  And he says that this generation will not pass until these events happen.  there are many interpretations of the word Genea/generation.  did he mean that it was to happen during those decades, or did generation mean race.

3) He was talking about the end of the entire world.

Problem:  Whether this would be a problem would depend on how you understand the term generation.  He spoke of armies surrounding Jerusalem.  If that happened tomorrow I don't think that anybody would be shocked.  

ps.  I don't know what you're asking me to defend.  I'm not defending anything or anyone.  Jesus can defend himself, he doesn't need me to defend him. 

Joagbaje:

In prophecies There is what is called "law of double reference" this law applies to some portions of this prophecy. But I know what I'm talking about . I don't want us to derail this thread.

There wont be physical appearance of christ to the world at the rapture of the church. There are different kinds of raptures in the bible. There will be raptures during the tribulation time. There will be rapture of the two witnesses . There will be a jewish rapture of the 144000 People .(elect) these are from the 12 tribes of isreal. All these will take place after the rapture of the church. During the great tribulation. Prophecies are not always straight forward. There are rules involved in interpretation. I will prefer us deal with this in another thread. A part of a prophecy of end rimes  might have been fulfilled while the next verse is for futuristic fulfilment . Of course some part of that prophecy got fulfilled under Titus. Some end time prophecy had partial fulfilment under Antiochus ephiphanes too.

It was clear that Jesus was dealing with the Jewish tribulation which is to come. It will last for seven years. They had rejected Jesus as christ. They are still looking for their messiah . They will finally embrace the Antichrist as their messiah. After three and half years . He will turn against them and God . He will claim to be their God.That is the signal that jesus mentioned .That is the abomination of dissolution that Daniel prophesied.

When the Antichrist turns against the Jews, their eyes will be open to realise that the Antichrist is not their messiah.  They will start looking for another messiah. That's when the false christ or false messiahs will show up. Who will deceive them and cause more Jews to be killed until when Jesus finally shows up at the second coming. The second coming is mostly mistaken for the rapture . But it is not. The saints will come down with him at the second coming . We will fight for israel. He will come with us physically the whole world will see it.

Revelation 19:11-16
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS.

Joagbaje:

@ PASTOR AIO

Your defence is about. The statement you made concerning the efficacy of teaching of Jesus regardless of faith or cult . That's why I  asked you first to know which of the teachings are you referring to. But you seemed to be dodging the question . 

My question to you is. If an idol worshipper follow the teaching of christ such as  ". . love thy neighbour as thyself" does that guarantee salvation?. What is the end result ?
Thanks

Pastor AIO:


I fully believe that if you apply the teachings of Jesus to your life then you'll experience changes that go far beyond what religious cult you decide to identify with.

Joagbaje:

What is
What is the teaching of jesus?

Pastor AIO:

I cannot believe that you would ask me that. sebi you have bible in your house. Read it.

Joagbaje:

No o don't escape it. It is important for you to answer.your answer should help drive a point in. Well the point is if you pick the story of the good Samaritan for example . And teach people . Does that get a man saved. You are simply teaching salvation by works. Why it's important to know what teaching of Jesus you are talking about.

Pastor AIO:

Sorry o! I forgot that you do not think that Jesus' teachings were that important.

Joagbaje:

^^^^^

Pls tell them. Many believe that salvation is by works. The works doesn't come first ,it comes after as a fruit. You don't put the cart before the horse. Salvation is not by works . It is a gift received hrough faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

AIO and enigma s'o ti gbó. Have you gbod me?

Pastor AIO:


24“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. 25Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. 26But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”

And just before he says that, he says:

21“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

Please, Mr. Joe Agbaje,  correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we were discussing the teachings of Jesus.  I said that whosoever applies them to his life will experience results that transcend whichever religious cult you belong to. You asked me what are the teachings of Jesus.  . . . .

But the matter come pass matter when to refute my insistence on the teachings of Jesus all you can do is quote ephesians.  We are talking about Jesus.  When did Jesus say any of that?  Or, where in any of Jesus' teachings do we find anything that tallies with that?  Show me, and then we can start to discuss Jesus' ministry. 

Joagbaje:

Jesus taught many things on many topics . Which one are you referring to. What you guys are saying is that a man does not have to be born again or be a christian so long as he copies Jesus teaching or so. I want to know which particular teaching you're referring to. I would want to know your concept of salvation.

Your response seems like escape from committing yourself to stand for your belief.

Pastor AIO:

I'm not escaping anything. The need to be born again is Jesus' own teaching in John, not Ephesians.

I'm not referring to any particular teaching of Jesus but the entire teachings of Jesus. His message.

I said if you apply his teaching[b]S[/b]. You are the one that seems to understand one particular teaching that I must be referring to.

While we are on the teachings of Jesus, could you please reaffirm your position that the teachingS of Jesus do not apply to 'christians' such as yourself. Just so we know that you are committed 'to stand for your belief'.

Joagbaje:

@ PASTOR AIO

Your defence is about. The statement you made concerning the efficacy of teaching of Jesus regardless of faith or cult . That's why I  asked you first to know which of the teachings are you referring to. But you seemed to be dodging the question . 

My question to you is. If an idol worshipper follow the teaching of christ such as  ". . love thy neighbour as thyself" does that guarantee salvation?. What is the end result ?
Thanks

Pastor Kun:

@PastorAIO
You get time sha, imagine going this whole length to explain yourself to a thick head who is incapable of understanding.

Pastor AIO:
. . . . You keep going on about me 'dodging' some question. I'm not you. please you need to bear that in mind. Nairaland is full of threads that you {edit: i.e. Joagbaje} didn't just dodge, you completely picked your two legs and fled from, like satan after being rebuked by Jesus.

JeSoul:

I do agree they may indeed be inseperable - but perhaps not on the same level of importance in the big picture. I'd like to see more thoughts from anyone, I don't want to talk too much . . .

Pastor Kun:

@uncle joe
Definitely not banned, just changing my username to prosecute my next agenda against false preachers/churches like you/cec. Had to come out clean less hypocrites like you who have at least ten user IDs accuse me of using multiple IDs.

seyibrown:

[b]@ OP

It is possible to teach (introduce) Jesus first to a person without asking them to convert to Christianity. If they do understand who Jesus is and accept him, they WILL become followers of Christ themselves. To become followers of Christ, they will reject/let go of what they previously thought was the way!

For many who hang on to religion as a result of pride, fear of oppression or punishment from earthly authorities, it is easier to teach Jesus and his ways to them and let the Holy Spirit complete the work of conversion in them! It is the Holy spirit that will give them the boldness to convert 'openly'! Many non-Christians are trapped in their current religion because they DO NOT KNOW/BELIEVE WHO CHRIST IS because of their ignorance of who he really his. Many simply do not wish to ever become 'one of those Xtians' because they were born and bred 'non-christian'. Helping them to understand who Jesus really is/was without initially emphasising conversion is the best Evangelists can do for them! [/b]

seyibrown:

@ OP

It is possible to teach (introduce) Jesus first to a person without asking them to convert to Christianity. If they do understand who Jesus is and accept him, they WILL become followers of Christ themselves. To become followers of Christ, they will reject/let go of what they previously thought was the way!

For many who hang on to religion as a result of pride, fear of oppression or punishment from earthly authorities, it is easier to teach Jesus and his ways to them and let the Holy Spirit complete the work of conversion in them! It is the Holy spirit that will give them the boldness to convert 'openly'! Many non-Christians are trapped in their current religion because they DO NOT KNOW/BELIEVE WHO CHRIST IS because of their ignorance of who he really his. Many simply do not wish to ever become 'one of those Xtians' because they were born and bred 'non-christian'. Helping them to understand who Jesus really is/was without initially emphasising conversion is the best Evangelists can do for them!

seyibrown:
The majority of converts do not get saved on introduction! Many non-Xtians need evangelists to go back again and again before acceptance. Go back and read in between the lines of the OP article and think about the 'societal/religious circumstances' of those being preached to! Getting to understand who Jesus is will lead many to acceptance of him and conversion. [/b]As long as these people see a certain other person as their role model, it will be very difficult for them to CONVERT FIRST without knowing who Jesus is! What Jesus did and what he did not do compared to others is a good start! The end result of them understanding and accepting is conversion!

For example, how easy has it been to 'convert' sweetnecta etc? Until they understand who Jesus really his and accept him over their current role model, they will not get 'saved'. [b]There are people who do not know Jesus but naturally would do the things Jesus commands. Teaching about the lifestyle of Jesus and encouraging the forsaking of 'non-Jesus ways' is a good start !

seyibrown:

[b]The majority of converts do not get saved on introduction! Many non-Xtians need evangelists to go back again and again before acceptance. Go back and read in between the lines of the OP article and think about the 'societal/religious circumstances' of those being preached to! Getting to understand who Jesus is will lead many to acceptance of him and conversion. As long as these people see a certain other person as their role model, it will be very difficult for them to CONVERT FIRST without knowing who Jesus is! What Jesus did and what he did not do compared to others is a good start! The end result of them understanding and accepting is conversion!

For example, how easy has it been to 'convert' sweetnecta etc? Until they understand who Jesus really his and accept him over their current role model, they will not get 'saved'. There are people who do not know Jesus but naturally would do the things Jesus commands. Teaching about the lifestyle of Jesus and encouraging the forsaking of 'non-Jesus ways' is a good start ! [/b]

5STAR:

@ Op

U all should read 2 timothy 3:5

Jesus himself depended solely on the Holy Spirit for his earthly ministry, me thinks we ought to do the same

u can introduce one to the teachings of Jesus,he can go ahead and practice them and be well off doing so , buh it won't save him, the Jesus "change"should from inside out and not the other way. Cornelius, Acts 10 was a man with a very good resume with God but still needed to be saved

Paul is not more important than Jesus, he himself said "follow me as i follow Christ" 1 Corinthians 11: 1

only by one name can a man be saved, the name of Jesus Acts 4: 12

Bottom line all must repent and receive the holy spirit, Act 2:38

Bottom line, depend solely on his wisdom to win a soul, he knows the way, and who is ready to be won, not you, human wisdom will get us nowhere in spiritual things,