Old tricks. I even answered anyway: spoils of war included slaves. So, did Abram (as he was) give a tithe of slaves?

Meanwhile, it does not lie in your mouth that someone may not want to answer a question --- considering how many times you've so far evaded answering the pretty simple questions and issues I raised.

Enigma:

Old tricks.  I even answered anyway: spoils of war included slaves. So, did Abram (as he was) give a tithe of slaves?

Fine, and here's my answer:

Spoils of war included money as well. If that is true, what would this have implied in Abraham's tithes?

The one thing I wanted to address is the fallacy often made that Biblical tithes were ONLY farm produce. I asked the second question for the sole reason of not wanting to risk misunderstanding you and supposing the "ONLY farm produce" was your interpretation. If you want me to explain what I mean by my answer, I will also gladly do so.

^^^ OK then: Abram's tithe was voluntary and a one off --- thus a Christian can choose just the once to give a tithe of money. In fact, he can choose not to tithe with money but to tithe with ewedu, spinach, onions, garden eggs, clothes that he seizes off the backs of his debtors etc etc

Or when else did Abraham give/pay tithes from his regular income? When else did he give/pay tithes of money or of any other sort?

So on what basis then is the teaching of the continuing obligation to give or "pay" tithes from salary??

Meanwhile, let us see you stand up and show some courage --- answer my questions/queries.

Please tell us a "tithe" or "tenth" of what exactly are people now supposed to give or "pay"

Of crops grown in their gardens?

Of furniture produced by a carpenter?

Where in the Bible was a tithe or tenth of money or salary required or practised?

Above all, God said He didn't want the tithe in money!

Enigma:

^^^ OK then: Abram's tithe was voluntary and a one off --- thus a Christian can choose just the once to give a tithe of money. In fact, he can choose not to tithe with monet but to tithe with ewedu, spinach, onions, garden eggs, clothes that he seizes off the backs of his debtors etc etc

Lol, is that "OK then" somewhat your saying you agree with what I implied? I don't know - but it wouldn't matter.

The point I wanted to highlight is that tithes in the Bible were not "ONLY farm produce" but included other stuff, as well as money. The implication is easy, since most of the anti-tithing theologians I've read also use other passages to discuss 'tithes' from spoils of war (whether or not such passages are not about tithes specifically). I don't know if some of these guys are actually joking around from this point, which makes me wonder at garyarnold's 'tithe of trash'.

If we can see this simple point, why do some keep arguing that tithes in the Bible were nothing other than farm produce?

Or when else did Abraham give/pay tithes from his regular income? When else did he give/pay tithes of money or of any other sort?

The important thing is that the Bible referred to Abraham's gifts as TITHES in both the OT (Gen. 14:20) and the NT (Heb. 7:6). Some may stretch their denials to say that Abraham did not tithe, etc., etc., in complete rejection of those verses.

Nonetheless, Abraham gave tithes from what he could rightfully claim as his own - otherwise it would be incomprehensible to argue his gifts as his tithes if they did not first belong to him.

So on what basis then is the teaching of the continuing obligation to give or "pay" tithes from salary??

Please read me carefully, as I have to repeat this: "I don't argue tithes on a mandatory commandment or law." It is a principle and not by a legalistic exercise.

Enigma:

Meanwhile, let us see you stand up and show some courage --- answer my questions/queries.

Please stop acting like a legal orator, lol. I already answered your questions and offered to explain my answer if you would like me to do so. Perhaps you're needlessly repeating yourself in those questions, such as this one already addressed -

Where in the Bible was a tithe or tenth of money or salary required or practised?

Above all, God said He didn't want the tithe in money!

He didn't say so - otherwise it would be meaningless to find the involvement of money as exchange for stuff in Deut. 14:25-26.

wordtalk:

Lol, is that "OK then" somewhat your saying you agree with what I implied? I don't know - but it wouldn't matter.

The point I wanted to highlight is that tithes in the Bible were not "ONLY farm produce" but included other stuff, as well as money. The implication is easy, since most of the anti-tithing theologians I've read also use other passages to discuss 'tithes' from spoils of war (whether or not such passages are not about tithes specifically). I don't know if some of these guys are actually joking around from this point, which makes me wonder at garyarnold's 'tithe of trash'.

If we can see this simple point, why do some keep arguing that tithes in the Bible were nothing other than farm produce?

Nah!

1. You have not shown that Abram tithed money --- you are assuming and presuming.
2. If Abram is who to follow, then people today should also be able to tithe slaves (there is greater evidence that slaves were included in the spoils of war than there is for money)
3. If you are using Abram's tithe as the basis for teaching tithing today, there is no basis for saying "God wants tithes" at all let alone to say that "God want Tithes of Money". At best, you can tell people you have an option to tithe ---- to tithe slaves, goods, ewedu, spinach oh and money too. You will not be fighting such tooth and nail with all these obfuscation.
4. When God asked for tithes, He said He did NOT want it in money --- He wanted it in livestock and farm produce!

wordtalk:
The important thing is that the Bible referred to Abraham's gifts as TITHES in both the OT (Gen. 14:20) and the NT (Heb. 7:6). Some may stretch their denials to say that Abraham did not tithe, etc., etc., in complete rejection of those verses.

Nonetheless, Abraham gave tithes from what he could rightfully claim as his own - otherwise it would be incomprehensible to argue his gifts as his tithes if they did not first belong to him.

So a Christian today can give as/in tithes whatever he could rightfully claim to be his own --- his ewedu, his spinach, clothes that he seizes lawfully from a debtor etc etc.

wordtalk:
Please read me carefully, as I have to repeat this: "I don't argue tithes on a mandatory commandment or law." It is a principle and not by a legalistic exercise.

The thread title is "Does god Want The Tithes of Money"

So Does God want tithes? Does God want tithes of money?

wordtalk:

Please stop acting like a legal orator, lol. I already answered your questions and offered to explain my answer if you would like me to do so.

Nope: you have not answered my questions.

wordtalk:
Perhaps you're needlessly repeating yourself in those questions, such as this one already addressed -

Nope, you have not answered that question; read it again --- carefully. It says: Where in the Bible was a tithe or tenth of money or salary required or practised?

wordtalk:
He didn't say so - otherwise it would be meaningless to find the involvement of money as exchange for stuff in Deut. 14:25-26.

God certainly said He didn't want tithes in money. In one instance it was absolute; in another instance he imposed a penalty/levy for whoever wanted to give/pay tithes in money.

Enigma:

1. You have not shown that Abram tithed money> you are assuming and presuming.

Abraham's spoils of war would very well have included some form of money; which raises this point in yours:

2. . . . (there is greater evidence that slaves were included in the spoils of war than there is for money)

Is that to say that you readily find slaves in spoils of war than you would find money in them? I hope not, because there is equal evidence that money was included in spoils of war. The fact that spoils of war in Biblical history most often included money could be seen in these two examples among others -

(a) spoils of war included other things like garments and money (such as "shekels of silver and gold" as in Josh. 7:21

(b) spoils of war included animals, jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets and money, such as in Numbers 31:50-54. Even here, the sum of money they offered from the spoils taken is given as "sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels", and we are not told if that was 1% or 10% of the total sum taken in the spoils (we often read anti-tithers argue that God only "required" 1% or less of the spoils in Numbers 31, but only if the reader ignores verses 52-54 could such fallacy be maintained).

There are other examples, but this was just to remind you of the evidence for money in spoils that you might be wondering about.

2. If Abram is who to follow, then people today should also be able to tithe slaves

Depends on what you mean by 'follow' - either in the literal sense of reading the 'letter' or rather to follow his principle. A Biblical principle is not the same thing as a legalistic or literal reading in 'application'. Yes, the principle of the tithe (in terms of its basic definition as a 'tenth') understands that there is more than a literal application of the term in the Bible.

3. If you are using Abram's tithe as the basis for teaching tithing today, there is no basis for saying "God wants tithes" at all let alone to say that "God want Tithes of Money". At best, you can tell people you have an option to tithe ---- to tithe slaves, goods, ewedu, spinach oh and money too. You will not be fighting such tooth and nail with all these obfuscation.

The basis of the principle is this - in proportion to what the Lord has blessed you with (1 Cor. 16:1-2). Sound theologians do not have a problem with 'proportional giving'; it is the legalistic form of any type of giving that is at the root of their contention.

Further, Paul in 1 Cor. 9:13-14 referred to the Levitical system under the Law when he taught on giving in the NT. He was not making a case for literal application of farm produce in Israel; but it is understood that he was pointing out a principle in verse 14 where he said "[On the same principle] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel" (Amplified). You can compare Numbers 18 with 1 Corinthians 9:13.

So Does God want tithes? Does God want tithes of money?

God has never once rejected the tithes and other offerings of His people except on one grounds: robbery. I would like to see any verse where God said He specifically does not want tithes or that He does not want tithes of money. That would then lead us to ask whether or not Abraham's tithes had anything to do with God.

Enigma:

God certainly said He didn't want tithes in money. In one instance it was absolute; in another instance he imposed a penalty/levy for whoever wanted to give/pay tithes in money.

Did He altogether reject the tithes in money even with the levy imposed? Where?

^^^ Go and study it and come back to reveal to all whatever your findings are.

^^
I have. I just wondered if there was something I had possibly missed.

Meanwhile, you have not answered whether a person can tithe crops growing in his garden? Whether the person can tithe ewedu, spinach, garden eggs, onions, apples etc

Can a carpenter give a tithe of his furniture?

Along with the other questions.

Below are all 32 verses in the Bible to do with tithes, no where does it say that the tithe was from income, so why do many Christians continue to allow these false pastors collecting tithes to continue to deceive them into handing over 10% of their income to these 10% income robbers.

1.Genesis 14:20 (Whole Chapter)
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. - From the booty of war but not income.


2.Leviticus 27:30 (Whole Chapter)
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.


3.Leviticus 27:31 (Whole Chapter)
And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.


4.Leviticus 27:32 (Whole Chapter)
And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.


5.Numbers 18:24 (Whole Chapter)
But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.


6.Numbers 18:26 (Whole Chapter)
Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.


7.Numbers 18:28 (Whole Chapter)
Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.


8.Deuteronomy 12:6 (Whole Chapter)
And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:


9.Deuteronomy 12:11 (Whole Chapter)
Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:


10.Deuteronomy 12:17 (Whole Chapter)
Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:


11.Deuteronomy 14:22 (Whole Chapter)
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.


12.Deuteronomy 14:23 (Whole Chapter)
And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.


13.Deuteronomy 14:28 (Whole Chapter)
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:


14.Deuteronomy 26:12 (Whole Chapter)
When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;


15.2 Chronicles 31:5 (Whole Chapter)
And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.


16.2 Chronicles 31:6 (Whole Chapter)
And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.


17.2 Chronicles 31:12 (Whole Chapter)
And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully: over which Cononiah the Levite was ruler, and Shimei his brother was the next.


18.Nehemiah 10:37 (Whole Chapter)
And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.


19.Nehemiah 10:38 (Whole Chapter)
And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.


20.Nehemiah 12:44 (Whole Chapter)
And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited.


21.Nehemiah 13:5 (Whole Chapter)
And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.


22.Nehemiah 13:12 (Whole Chapter)
Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.


23.Amos 4:4 (Whole Chapter)
Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years:


24.Malachi 3:8 (Whole Chapter)
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


25.Malachi 3:10 (Whole Chapter)
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

26.Matthew 23:23 (Whole Chapter)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


27.Luke 11:42 (Whole Chapter)
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


28.Luke 18:12 (Whole Chapter)
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.


29.Hebrews 7:5 (Whole Chapter)
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:


30.Hebrews 7:6 (Whole Chapter)
But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.


31.Hebrews 7:8 (Whole Chapter)
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.


32.Hebrews 7:9 (Whole Chapter)
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin,
and have neglected the weightier matters of the
law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought
to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Luke 11:42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and
rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice
and the love of God. These you ought to have done,
without leaving the others undone.


Christ spoke these words during His ministry and this teaching was in
harmony with the directives of the Old Covenant.


The following verse explains the position of Christ in relation to the
existing Old Covenant Law.


Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time
had come, God sent forth His Son,
born of a woman, born under the law,
:5 to redeem those who were under the
law, ,



Christ planted the seeds of the New Testament while acting and speaking
in harmony with the law of the Old Covenant. It is for this reason that
He also commanded a cleansed leper to obey the law of Moses.


Matt 8:3 , And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
:4 See that you tell no one; but go your way, show
yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that
Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.


The physical offering of animals does not apply under the New Testament,
so why did Christ compel this compliance with the Law of Moses?


For the same reason he compelled tithing in Matthew 23:23. The Law of
Moses was still in force during the life of Christ. It would have been
'sin' for Christ at this time to have taught against the Law of Moses!


In the Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 verses Christ was not teaching
that tithing was required by the New Testament, but rather was just
re-enforcing that this was a requirement under the Old Covenant!

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
                  For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin,
                  and have neglected the weightier matters of the
                  law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought
                  to have done, without leaving the others undone.

   Luke  11:42    But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and
                  rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice
                  and the love of God. These you ought to have done,
                  without leaving the others undone.


Christ spoke these words during His ministry and this teaching was in
harmony with the directives of the Old Covenant.


The following verse explains the position of Christ in relation to the
existing Old Covenant Law.


   Gal    4:4    But when the fullness of the time
                 had come, God sent forth His Son,
                 born of a woman, born under the law,
           :5    to redeem those who were under the
                 law, ,



Christ planted the seeds of the New Testament while acting and speaking
in harmony with the law of the Old Covenant. It is for this reason that
He also commanded a cleansed leper to obey the law of Moses.


   Matt   8:3    , And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
           :4    See that you tell no one; but go your way, show
                 yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that
                 Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.


The physical offering of animals does not apply under the New Testament,
so why did Christ compel this compliance with the Law of Moses?


For the same reason he compelled tithing in Matthew 23:23. The Law of
Moses was still in force during the life of Christ. It would have been
'sin' for Christ at this time to have taught against the Law of Moses!


In the Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 verses Christ was not teaching
that tithing was required by the New Testament, but rather was just
re-enforcing that this was a requirement under the Old Covenant!

greatnig:

The following verse explains the position of Christ in relation to the
existing Old Covenant Law.

Galatians 4 does not argue against tithing in the Bible, especially because not all occurrences of tithing in the Bible were a matter of the Mosaic Law. Besides, tithing in the Bible (both Abraham's and the Levitical tithes) had nothing to do with redemption or salvation; so trying to use Galatians 4 as a precedence for a negation of tithes does not say anything about the fact that Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law when he gave tithes to Melchizedek.

For the same reason he compelled tithing in Matthew 23:23. The Law of
Moses was still in force during the life of Christ. It would have been
'sin' for Christ at this time to have taught against the Law of Moses!

Do 'the weightier matters of the law' have any place in your Christian life even though the Law of Moses is not still in force for Christians? What part of Scripture was Paul referring to in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 when he taught about support for preachers of the Gospel - was it not the same Law of Moses?

Christians are not called to legalism, that is why the apostles could still use the Law of Moses to draw principles for Christian applications. To live by legalism is to see things in a literal sense rather than seek out the inherent principle. It is by that inherent principle of the Law that many people have found it helpful to give tithes of their resources rather than being tied down with legalistic interpretations of the OT.

This is why it amazes me that after all the arguments from those who oppose tithing, one finds that some anti-tithing theologians are still agreeing with tithing pastors that Christians can give/pay tithes! They may excuse their self-contradictory stance when confronted with the fact, because they know that sound hermeneutics is not about legalism or literalism in Biblical exegesis.

You can only know the mind of God by studying his Word,
"This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success." Joshua 1:8

http://www.openheavensdevotionals..com/

John 13:34
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Jesus did not say collect tithes from one anohter's income If your pastor loves you he won't ask you for 10% tithe from your income! Instead he will give you the keys to his house and let you stay there for free

wordtalk:

Abraham's spoils of war would very well have included some form of money; which raises this point in yours:

Ok so Abraham's tithe included money - so what? It was a voluntary gift and nothing more. Jepthah promised his daughter to God for victory - does that now mean that our daughters are to be sacrificed to God because there is a precedent?

Is that to say that you readily find slaves in spoils of war than you would find money in them? I hope not, because there is equal evidence that money was included in spoils of war. The fact that spoils of war in Biblical history most often included money could be seen in these two examples among others -

(a) spoils of war included other things like garments and money (such as "shekels of silver and gold" as in Josh. 7:21

(b) spoils of war included animals, jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets and money, such as in Numbers 31:50-54. Even here, the sum of money they offered from the spoils taken is given as "sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels", and we are not told if that was 1% or 10% of the total sum taken in the spoils (we often read anti-tithers argue that God only "required" 1% or less of the spoils in Numbers 31, but only if the reader ignores verses 52-54 could such fallacy be maintained).

There are other examples, but this was just to remind you of the evidence for money in spoils that you might be wondering about.

Again, this voluntary act does not denote that we should follow it. The most salient example of this is circumcision - it is not a requirement neither will doing it give you any credit with God.

The basis of the principle is this - in proportion to what the Lord has blessed you with (1 Cor. 16:1-2). Sound theologians do not have a problem with 'proportional giving'; it is the legalistic form of any type of giving that is at the root of their contention.

Further, Paul in 1 Cor. 9:13-14 referred to the Levitical system under the Law when he taught on giving in the NT. He was not making a case for literal application of farm produce in Israel; but it is understood that he was pointing out a principle in verse 14 where he said "[On the same principle] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel" (Amplified). You can compare Numbers 18 with 1 Corinthians 9:13.

Kindly extract such a similar reference to the 'tithing principle' when giving was taught in the NT. Surely given the extensive teachings of Paul (and other apostles) on this subject he would not have ignored such an important principle in his teachings?

Can you bring forth even ONE example in the NT where the Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving?

God has never once rejected the tithes and other offerings of His people except on one grounds: robbery. I would like to see any verse where God said He specifically does not want tithes or that He does not want tithes of money. That would then lead us to ask whether or not Abraham's tithes had anything to do with God.

One second you claim people are literally reading the 'letter' and now you want letter evidence?

One more comment on this 'having to do with God' Jepthah's promise of sacrificing his daughter had to do with God - is that the necessary and sufficient evidence for us to adopt it as a valid practice?

These tithe bridgage will stop at nothing to ensure we part with our money

debosky:

Ok so Abraham's tithe included money - so what? It was a voluntary gift and nothing more.

If you acknowledge this, there's nothing more to say. Thank you.

What many anti-tithers may not have realised is the fact that Biblical tithing could also be voluntary - which is why I have repeatedly made the point that I don't argue tithing by a mandatory idea.

Again, this voluntary act does not denote that we should follow it. The most salient example of this is circumcision - it is not a requirement neither will doing it give you any credit with God.

Let me remind you again: seek for the principle, not the legalistic application of dry 'letters'. Circumcision has its varied applications, although the basic meaning is consecration. Paul explained what circumcision actually is - "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter" (Rom. 2:29) - and Moses in the Law already affirmed the same thing in Deut. 10:16 and 30:6. So, while circumcision in the OT is often outward in the flesh, its inherent principle was a matter of the heart, so that Paul could say in Php. 3:3 - "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

It is in light of its real meaning that you cannot maintain that circumcision has no credit - please consider the basic principle and revise your assertions.

Kindly extract such a similar reference to the 'tithing principle' when giving was taught in the NT. Surely given the extensive teachings of Paul (and other apostles) on this subject he would not have ignored such an important principle in his teachings?

No, he did not ignore it - and I have pointed the reader to 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. The question is obvious: if the Law does not provide us with the principle, then what part of Scripture was Paul referring to in verse 13? Earlier in verse 9 and 10, he was clearly referring to the Law of Moses, in principle rather than in legalistic applications.

Can you bring forth even ONE example in the NT where the Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving?  

Please see 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. If you guys would just calm down, open your Bible and READ these references before reacting, it would make all the difference! I have cited that passage MANY TIMES ALREADY!

One second you claim people are literally reading the 'letter' and now you want letter evidence?

I've been consistent in seeking out and pointing to principles rather than literalism. If you want me to expatiate on this, I would gladly.

One more comment on this 'having to do with God' Jepthah's promise of sacrificing his daughter had to do with God - is that the necessary and sufficient evidence for us to adopt it as a valid practice?

Depends on what you actually mean and in what context - literal or in principle. I have no doubt that Christians are involved in the sacrifice of themselves to God; the problem is that many see that as a literal application, which it is not. So, yes - there is a valid lesson in our sacrifice of our own selves, but not in the literal sense - see Romans 12:1-3 ("present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

@Wordtalk
It's interesting that a newbie on nairaland who just registered yesterday as already log in over forty posts most of which are on tithes, your signature also confirms that you are a tithe monger. Kindly clarify if you are truly new on this forum or you took on a new I.D to argue your tithe doctrine having been dis-credited with a previous I.D .

That aside most of us the so called anti tithing brigade are not saying it is wrong for christians to tithe (after all they are mostly the victims) what we condemn in clear terms is the false, evil, fraudulent and manipulative doctrine of mandatory tithing to christians that is sooo popular in several churches today. Preachers ought to teach the undiluted truth, when they start teaching christians that it is voluntary and not a christian requirement, we would sheath our swords.

wordtalk:

If you acknowledge this, there's nothing more to say. Thank you.

What many anti-tithers may not have realised is the fact that Biblical tithing could also be voluntary - which is why I have repeatedly made the point that I don't argue tithing by a mandatory idea.

I have never denied this - maybe my late entrance into the discourse is responsible for the confusion.

Let me remind you again: seek for the principle, not the legalistic application of dry 'letters'. Circumcision has its varied applications, although the basic meaning is consecration. Paul explained what circumcision actually is - "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter" (Rom. 2:29) - and Moses in the Law already affirmed the same thing in Deut. 10:16 and 30:6. So, while circumcision in the OT is often outward in the flesh, its inherent principle was a matter of the heart, so that Paul could say in Php. 3:3 - "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

It is in light of its real meaning that you cannot maintain that circumcision has no credit - please consider the basic principle and revise your assertions.

Circumcision as carried out by Abraham and the Israelites involved cutting of the foreskin to show consecration. That practice has no credit in showing consecration. Does that help you understand?

No, he did not ignore it - and I have pointed the reader to 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. The question is obvious: if the Law does not provide us with the principle, then what part of Scripture was Paul referring to in verse 13? Earlier in verse 9 and 10, he was clearly referring to the Law of Moses, in principle rather than in legalistic applications.

The principle referred to in Corinthians refers to treading oxen and not to tithing. Where is the reference to the tithing practice/principle when teaching about giving?

There are numerous references to the Law of Moses in the NT, please highlight one relating to the Law of Moses on tithing when it comes to teaching on giving.

Please see 1 Corinthians 9:13-14. If you guys would just calm down, open your Bible and READ these references before reacting, it would make all the difference! I have cited that passage MANY TIMES ALREADY!

Again, this is more obfuscation - there is NO REFERENCE to tithes in that passage. A reference to the law of Moses is not an endorsement of everything therein. If that is what you are claiming, could we then say, on the basis of I Corinthians, that the principle of an eye for an eye is acceptable for Christians today?

The problem with your 'principle' argument is that you are tacitly saying the above statement is true - I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

I've been consistent in seeking out and pointing to principles rather than literalism. If you want me to expatiate on this, I would gladly.

Then why are you asking for evidence of where God said 'literally' that he didn't want Tithes of money? Surely you see the contradiction in this position?

Depends on what you actually mean and in what context - literal or in principle. I have no doubt that Christians are involved in the sacrifice of themselves to God; the problem is that many see that as a literal application, which it is not. So, yes - there is a valid lesson in our sacrifice of our own selves, but not in the literal sense - see Romans 12:1-3 ("present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Good to see you passed that test.

Now kindly subject your 'tithing principle' to the same test - by providing a reference to the same principle in the NT juxtaposed against the Law of Moses.

1) WHEN WE WERE ALL KIDS WE OBEY OUR PARENT NOT BECAUSE WE LOVE THEM BUT BECAUSE WE WERE AFRAID OF PUNISHMENT OR EVEN BEATING AT TIMES.

2) AS AN ADULT WE RESPECT THEM BECAUSE WE REALISE HOW PRECIOUS THEY ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY WE PUNISH US OR BEAT US IF WE DONT.

3) WHEN THEY BECOME OLD WE PAMPER THEM LIKE LITTLE CHILDREN BEACUSE OF THE AFFECTION AND THE LOVE WE HAVE FOR THEM.

4) AN OLD COVENANT TITHER DID IT FOR FEAR OF DEVOURER NOT LOVE. that is why you see them protesting to GOD in prayer when something bad happens to them even when they roll from one sin to another. they pay tithe as if they are GOD business patner, its ridiculous. IF CHRIST APEAR TODAY AND REMOVE MALACHI 3 8-10 FROM THE BIBLE 99% OF TITHER WE STOP PAYING TITHE, IS THAT WHAT WE CALL GIVING. THEY ARE GIVING BASE ON THEIR NEED NOT FOR LOVE. i also pay tithe for fear of devourer before but now i realise its against the scripture.

4b) THERE WAS A TIME MY SPIRIT LED ME TO PLEDGE  A PROJECT WORTH 450,000 TO A CHURCH not even my church. WHEN TIMES COME TO FUFIL THE PLEDGE I AM SO BROKE BUT I DID IT FOR THE LOVE AND THE PLACE I PLACE GOD IN MY HEART. TO MY SURPRISE GOD SUPRISE ME WITH UNEXPECTED PROFIT OF 4.5 M EXACTLY MUTIPLY BY 10  OF MY PLEDGE.

5) A NEW COVENANT GIVER GIVES TO GOD FOR THE LOVE HE HAS FOR GOD AND AS THE SPIRIT LED. NOT BECAUSE OF ANY COUSE OR DVOURER, FOR THEY REALISE THEY ARE NO LONGER UNDER ANY CAUSE. AND LOVE AS REPLACE THE OLD LAW.

6)  AS A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN DO WE REALISE GOD DID NOT GIVE US 10% OF CHRIST, christ did not sacrifice his leg or arm or eyes , he sacrifice all ,GOD GAVE US ALL OF CHRIST. SO TO BE SINCERE WE SHOULD NOT BASE OUR GIVING ON PERCENTAGE IT SHOULD BE AS THE SPIRIT LED US. IF I WAS LED TO GIVE ALL MY PROFIT TO GOD, I WILL SINCERLY DO IT WITH LOVE, I PRACTICE IT BEFORE AND IT WORKS.

7) You claim to give tithes to be obedient, if that is so then why give them in the wrong way to the wrong people, at the wrong place, in the wrong time and for the wrong reasons? Read Deuteronomy 14:22-29 for how the tithe was actually carried out.

You claim to have a personal relationship with God yet don't know the truth of His word. How is that so? Isn't the bible the word of God? If so, then isn't keeping His word correctly a form of obedience

AND LASTLY I WILL CONTINUE TO GIVE TO GOD BASE ON WHAT THE BIBLE SAY. CHEERFULL GIVING. I WONT PAY TO CHURCH ALONE, I WILL GIVE TO THE POOR, WIDOW, FATHERLESS AND EVEN STRANGER.
IF MY PASTOR DONT KNOW HOW TO SHARE MY MONEY I HAVE STARTED DOING IT MY SELF.

9) IN JUNE OUT OF MY 150,000 I HAVE TO GIVE TO MY GOD, I GAVE 50,000 TO MY CHURCH AND 100,000 TO THE POORER CHURCH THAT NEED MONEY FOR EVANGELISM.

10) IN JULY OUT OF THE MONEY I INTEND TO GIVE GOD, I PAY WITH LOVE TO MY CHURCH 20,000 AND SHARE THE REST WITH WIDOWS, OPHANS, AND LESS PRIVILRDGE PEOPLE AND EVEN BUY FOOD STUFF FOR MY STAFF.
True Christianity is not what we do in Church. It is a street thing. God has called us to be practical Christians, every day people who are making a difference in ordinary ways.
I WILL CONTINUE TO GIVE TO GOD AS MY SPIRIT LEAD ME AND I WILL CONTINUE TO LOVE HIM MORE. GOD DESERVE ALL NOT 10% AND WILL CONTINUE TO GIVE HIM ALL.

PART OF THE TITHE ARE MEANT FOR LEVITES BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE PORTION OF THE LAND. WE HAVE PART TIME PASTORS TODAY WHO EAT FROM TITHE AND STILL HAVE PORTION OF THE LAND.

CHRIST HAS REPLACE THE PRIEST, HE IS NOW MY HIGH PRIEST AND THE ONLY WAY I CAN REACH HIM WITH MY RESOURCES  IS TO FUFIL MATHEW 25 V 40

debosky:

Circumcision as carried out by Abraham and the Israelites involved cutting of the foreskin to show consecration. That practice has no credit in showing consecration. Does that help you understand?

I never claimed that outward circumcision in the flesh had any credit; I only made a distinction between the "outward" and that of "the heart", while pointing out that it is not a matter of legalism.

The principle referred to in Corinthians refers to treading oxen and not to tithing. Where is the reference to the tithing practice/principle when teaching about giving?

Have you read Numbers 18 and compared with 1 Corinthians 9:13? Is it difficult to see that Paul was referring to the Levitical system when he said in verse 13 - "Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?"

So, if you were looking for "even ONE example in the NT where the Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving", you have it in Paul's epistle in 1 Corinthians 9:13.

There are numerous references to the Law of Moses in the NT, please highlight one relating to the Law of Moses on tithing when it comes to teaching on giving.

Answered just above.

Again, this is more obfuscation - there is NO REFERENCE to tithes in that passage.

Please OPEN YOUR BIBLE and R-E-A-D the references. I have highlighted them and cited the parallel passages - 1 Corinthians 9:13 and Numbers 18. Please let me know if your own copy of the Bible does not reference tithing in Numbers 18!

A reference to the law of Moses is not an endorsement of everything therein.

I never claimed an endorsement of everything - which is why I have often pointed out the huge difference between legalism and principle. Legalists ask for an endorsement of "everything" exactly as written in black-and-white in the Law; that is an entirely different thing from seeking out a "principle".

If that is what you are claiming, could we then say, on the basis of I Corinthians, that the principle of an eye for an eye is acceptable for Christians today?

If you find that in 1 Corinthians, please show and let's discuss.

The problem with your 'principle' argument is that you are tacitly saying the above statement is true - I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

There is no problem with seeking a Biblical principle - ask a sound theologian what it means in Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis. The problem with those who cannot find the principle is that they are tending to literalism. Perhaps this quote from Wikipedia may help further in showing the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law -

The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law is an idiomatic antithesis.

When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter" of the law, but not the intent of those who wrote the law.

Conversely, when one obeys the spirit of the law but not the letter, one is doing what the authors of the law intended, though not necessarily adhering to the literal wording.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law

This is why I have tried to show again and again that even though Paul referred to the Law, he was more concerned with the spirit of the Law rather than a literal application without its principle. Take again the case of circumcision, Paul in Romans 2:29 notes that "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter", and we know that Moses in the Law pointed out the same thing in Deut. 30:6.

There is a world of difference between a legalistic interpretation (adhering to the 'letter of the law') and a Biblical principle ('the spirit of the Law'). While the Law was used by the NT apostles to teach Christian doctrines, it does not mean that they were promoting the 'letter of the law'.

Then why are you asking for evidence of where God said 'literally' that he didn't want Tithes of money? Surely you see the contradiction in this position?

I asked only because the one who was making the assertion only managed to tacitly acknowledge there was tithes of money, albeit in the form of a levy. My question was whether in such a case, even that money tithes was rejected.

Now kindly subject your 'tithing principle' to the same test - by providing a reference to the same principle in the NT juxtaposed against the Law of Moses.

Do I repeat again all I have said about 1 Corinthians 9:13-14? Should I take it that you really have never sought to read those references before replying? Maybe I should give you time to check them out and save us the needless repetition.

@wordtalk
Your analogy of the 1 corinthians 9 scripture to mean tithes is wrong and nothing short of scriptural manipulation 'temple tax' was what was used to take care of priests and maintain the temple in the old testament. Tithes could not have been used becos the levitical tithes was strictly agricultural produce not money and it was given just once a year not monthly/weekly as manipulators of scripture have twisted it to be. I would post the scriptures on temple tax shortly.

I can't find the old testament passage that originally mentioned temple tax but reference was made to it in matthew 17:24 when Jesus was asked to pay it and from there we see it was a fixed token of money and not a percentage either. That aside if one studies the book of leviticus, several types of offerings were mentioned there. These regular offerings were the ones being used to take care of the priests then and NOT the once in a year tithes from harvest. It was probably these various offerings Paul was referring to in 1 corinthians.

wordtalk:

I never claimed that outward circumcision in the flesh had any credit; I only made a distinction between the "outward" and that of "the heart", while pointing out that it is not a matter of legalism.

Agreed.

Have you read Numbers 18 and compared with 1 Corinthians 9:13? Is it difficult to see that Paul was referring to the Levitical system when he said in verse 13 - "Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?"

So, if you were looking for "even ONE example in the NT where the Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving", you have it in Paul's epistle in 1 Corinthians 9:13.

The passage in Corinthians is referring to the principle supporting people primarily working for God being supported by the ministry, not to tithing as a principle. I come to this conclusion based on Numbers' main thrust being the receipt of support, not the specifics of how this support is received. Furthermore, Paul's omission of the specifics of how this support is to be provided buttresses this view.

If you are arguing that this passage is an indication of a principle of tithing, does it also indicate a principle of 'wave offerings' too? Because this was also used to provide for those who served in the temple.

Please OPEN YOUR BIBLE and R-E-A-D the references. I have highlighted them and cited the parallel passages - 1 Corinthians 9:13 and Numbers 18. Please let me know if your own copy of the Bible does not reference tithing in Numbers 18!

My question as shown above is quite straightforward - what is the principle here? Is it the support of ministers or is it tithing? If tithing is being endorsed as a principle as you suggest, we should also come to the conclusion that 'wave offering' is also a principle being endorsed, so is 'firstfruits', and the giving of the offspring of every womb no?

I never claimed an endorsement of everything - which is why I have often pointed out the huge difference between legalism and principle. Legalists ask for an endorsement of "everything" exactly as written in black-and-white in the Law; that is an entirely different thing from seeking out a "principle".

Agreed - but do you seek out this particular principle to the neglect of others? Is this seeking of principles completely capricious or otherwise?

If you find that in 1 Corinthians, please show and let's discuss.

That was a tongue-in-cheek question to establish the methodology of your principle seeking.

This is why I have tried to show again and again that even though Paul referred to the Law, he was more concerned with the spirit of the Law rather than a literal application without its principle. Take again the case of circumcision, Paul in Romans 2:29 notes that "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter", and we know that Moses in the Law pointed out the same thing in Deut. 30:6.

No arguments there.

There is a world of difference between a legalistic interpretation (adhering to the 'letter of the law') and a Biblical principle ('the spirit of the Law'). While the Law was used by the NT apostles to teach Christian doctrines, it does not mean that they were promoting the 'letter of the law'.

So tithing is the 'spirit of the Law'? If that is true, are 'wave offerings' and 'first offspring of the womb' also principles in this same manner?

Do I repeat again all I have said about 1 Corinthians 9:13-14? Should I take it that you really have never sought to read those references before replying? Maybe I should give you time to check them out and save us the needless repetition.

Do humour me - my style might appear 'slow' but the intent is to really get to clarity about what you deem the passage to be referencing - tithing or everything else in Numbers? If it references principles, which are principles and which are not?

Pastor Kun:

@Wordtalk
It's interesting that a newbie on nairaland who just registered yesterday as already log in over forty posts most of which are on tithes, your signature also confirms that you are a tithe monger. Kindly clarify if you are truly new on this forum or you took on a new I.D to argue your tithe doctrine having been dis-credited with a previous I.D .

Hmmmmmm

Enigma:

. . . . stop obfuscating with irrelevance!

Enigma:

Old tricks. . . .

debosky:

The passage in Corinthians is referring to the principle supporting people primarily working for God being supported by the ministry, not to tithing as a principle. I come to this conclusion based on Numbers' main thrust being the receipt of support, not the specifics of how this support is received. Furthermore, Paul's omission of the specifics of how this support is to be provided buttresses this view.

In 1 Corinthians 9:13, Paul did not make omissions, and the point was indeed in answer to your request for "even ONE example in the NT where the Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving". If the citation of 1 Corinthians 9:13 does not answer your request, please tell me what system other than the Levitical system Paul was referring to in that verse.

If you are arguing that this passage is an indication of a principle of tithing, does it also indicate a principle of 'wave offerings' too? Because this was also used to provide for those who served in the temple.

Specifically, the parallel passage in Numbers 18 was about the tithes in the Levitical system - and that is the same thing concerning the Levitical system in Hebrews 7 which mentions tithing rather than other types of resources for support.

True, there were various offerings (such as the heave and wave offerings in Numbers 18:8 & 11); yet, whatever they offered were in principle found in verse 21, where the Levites are in view - "I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation" (KJV).

It is therefore not difficult to see what Paul was pointing to in 1 Corinthians 9:13 in reference to those who served particularly in the Temple and the Altar.

Further, the tithes of Israel bore the character of a heave offering according to Numbers 18:24 - "the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit, " etc. It shows that Israel's tithes were offered as a heave offering in this verse. The question rather would be to seek out the basic meaning of a 'heave offering'. Do this and let's compare our notes.

My question as shown above is quite straightforward - what is the principle here? Is it the support of ministers or is it tithing? If tithing is being endorsed as a principle as you suggest, we should also come to the conclusion that 'wave offering' is also a principle being endorsed, so is 'firstfruits', and the giving of the offspring of every womb no?

My answers were also straightforward - and I went further to show you the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law as a principle. I feel that the difficulty here is not one of communication, but of how you read these things. If one reads them simply in black and white, then it is no wonder to find you highlighting each type or name of offerings - which is why I have just pointed out above from Numbers 18:24 that Israel's tithes were viewed as a heave offering rather than separate the one from the other.

Agreed - but do you seek out this particular principle to the neglect of others? Is this seeking of principles completely capricious or otherwise?

How do you mean?

That was a tongue-in-cheek question to establish the methodology of your principle seeking.

Oh, I see. Have you read me over and again make the point of HERMENEUTICS and EXEGESIS? If you're basically about a methodology, I'd like to remind you of what I said earlier: "There is no problem with seeking a Biblical principle - ask a sound theologian what it means in Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis." In short, the methodology I have used is that which theologians are well at home with in their hermeneutics.

So tithing is the 'spirit of the Law'? If that is true, are 'wave offerings' and 'first offspring of the womb' also principles in this same manner?

Please see again the difference between 'the letter of the law' and the 'spirit of the law' in order to find the basic meaning of a Biblical principle. When you do so, you perhaps will go away happy to know that Israel's tithes were viewed as a heave offering rather than a separation between them - see Numbers 18:24.

Do humour me - my style might appear 'slow' but the intent is to really get to clarity about what you deem the passage to be referencing - tithing or everything else in Numbers? If it references principles, which are principles and which are not?

I find discussing with you interesting enough, so no humours there.

The references for all intents and purposes were first in answer to your request that I bring forth "even ONE example in the NT where the Levitical system of tithing was used to as a principle to encourage giving". In so far as that was the initial request, 1 Corinthians 9:13 shows that Paul was pointing to the Levitical system of tithing as a principle to encourage giving - at any rate, that verse points to the Levitical system. if you feel otherwise, please let me know what other "system" he might possibly have been referring to than the Levitical system. Perhaps, from there you might begin to see the gist about the said principle.

@ Wordtalk


Pls why are we not tithing as God instructed in Deuteronomy 14 vs 22-29?


What has changed?



Thanks.