A lot of folks are against abortion for religious reasons and "moral" reasons if irreligious. I'm pro abortion under all circumstances except late term;but I would advise a woman to have a late term abortion if the baby has been shown to have a genetic defect that would require life long care. Religions teach that humans have souls and would even argue that zygotes have souls, so they shouldn't be aborted.

What if the baby is born an anencephalic and and will never develop a sense of self if it survives birth, does the baby have a "soul" and would you abort it?

Anencephaly (CAUTION FOR THE FAINT HEARTED)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_K
Did she have a soul?

Abortion should be legalized entirely except for late-term and partial-birth abortions ( except again when the mother's life is at risk where anything goes). The fact is that criminalizing abortion is a senseless and stu.pid. Not only does it not work, it actually increases the number of abortions and the rate of deaths and serious complications.

A girl who wants an abortion and is facing the loss of her future and her dreams is going to get one whether its legal or not. By criminalizing it, you only drive it underground so that instead of qualified doctors, all sorts of quacks and seedy characters are the ones providing the service. This is why a procedure which is extremely safe in the developed world has such a high mortality and morbidity here. Plus the quacks don't bother helping the girls to prevent  future pregnancies, the sooner a girl comes back with another unwanted pregnancy, the more money they make.

In the UK, abortions are legal and paid for by the NHS. If a girl wants an abortion, she is first counselled about alternatives like adoption. She receives comprehensive se.x education including on subjects like HIV and STIs. Afterwards, she is given contraceptives so that she doesn't get pregnant again until she is ready.

In the UK, it is rare for a woman to have more than 1 or 2 abortions. Here in Nigeria, more than half of my female patients admit to having had at least 2. I once saw a woman who counted 16 abortions and couldn't even remember all the ones she did in secondary school. Nigerians need to stop deceiving themselves.

@Op

Good and thought-provoking thread.

But if you will entertain my humble perception on this issue, I perceive that the fact that a fetus or an unborn baby has a genetic disorder is not enough reason to abort the child.

If we follow your train of thought, it will only lead us to Nazism; it will lead us to also wondering why we should raise sick adolescents at all, why we should care for the sick at all, and why we should care for the old and the mentally challenged. There is no end to cruelty that this train of thought will take us. It is a sure highway to the world of extreme cruelty, where the strong and the privileged overcomes the weak and disadvantaged; it is a sure way to a hellish world. While threading this path to hell, we might as well resurrect Hitler and the infamous Nazi party to guide our way.

Looking at the scenario from the spiritual perspective. Everything that comes along ones way is what the individual deserves to experience in other to attain to a grater maturity; everything that we experience or everything that comes our way is what we have called to ourselves. We only reap what we once sowed.

We sow these thing sometimes deliberately and sometimes out of neglect. A person who lives wildly, drinking excessively, using drugs and etc, may harm his/her reproductive organs to such an extent that only unhealthy fetus results when he/she reproduces. Such a person should accept the child; such a child is actually a great gift of love to such a parent. For if the parent allows love for the child to prompt him/her into caring for the child, in caring for the child the parent will find a way out of his/her neglectful living. Seeing a beloved child suffer is such a moving experience, it is enough to make the parents of the child change their ways. Thus from the spiritual perspective, aborting the child is as good as robbing its parents of the gift and opportunity to change themselves and become better people.

Also, a great harm is done to the child, for the soul ready to incarnate in such a diseased body needs the experience of living in a diseased body in other to pay its karma. So aborting the child is as good as depriving the soul of a gift that it needs in other to mature.

Only when looked at from the intellectual perspective alone does one see nothing wrong in such an abortion; but when who looks from the spiritual perspective will easily see the evil of such acts.

Thanks.

justcool:

@Op

Good and thought-provoking thread.

But if you will entertain my humble perception on this issue, I perceive that the fact that a fetus or an unborn baby has a genetic disorder is not enough reason to abort the child.

If we follow your train of thought, it will only lead us to Nazism; it will lead us to also wondering why we should raise sick adolescents at all, why we should care for the sick at all, and why we should care for the old and the mentally challenged. There is no end to cruelty that this train of thought will take us. It is a sure highway to the world of extreme cruelty, where the strong and the privileged overcomes the weak and disadvantaged; it is a sure way to a hellish world. While threading this path to hell, we might as well resurrect Hitler and the infamous Nazi party to guide our way.

Looking at the scenario from the spiritual perspective. Everything that comes along ones way is what the individual deserves to experience in other to attain to a grater maturity; everything that we experience or everything that comes our way is what we have called to ourselves. We only reap what we once sowed.

We sow these thing sometimes deliberately and sometimes out of neglect. A person who lives wildly, drinking excessively, using drugs and etc, may harm his/her reproductive organs to such an extent that only unhealthy fetus results when he/she reproduces. Such a person should accept the child; such a child is actually a great gift of love to such a parent. For if the parent allows love for the child to prompt him/her into caring for the child, in caring for the child the parent will find a way out of his/her neglectful living. Seeing a beloved child suffer is such a moving experience, it is enough to make the parents of the child change their ways. Thus from the spiritual perspective, aborting the child is as good as robbing its parents of the gift and opportunity to change themselves and become better people.

Also, a great harm is done to the child, for the soul ready to incarnate in such a diseased body needs the experience of living in a diseased body in other to pay its karma. So aborting the child is as good as depriving the soul of a gift that it needs in other to mature.

Only when looked at from the intellectual perspective alone does one see nothing wrong in such an abortion; but when who looks from the spiritual perspective will easily see the evil of such acts.

Thanks.

Thanks, that was good but I think you went overboard with the hitler and nazism references. I'm talking about preventing disability before birth only not the care of the ones we already have amongst us or who later develop genetic disorders like parkinsons. I think conservatives in charge should loosen restrictions on embryonic stem cell research to deal with those diseases.
Your last statement sums up both of our views. I don't believe in the existence of souls so that's not a factor.  If a situation like that of baby k happened to you ( don't wish that on you) and you know that an anencephalic baby  even though "alive" will be blind, deaf,unconcious with no sense of self and won't feel pain. Do you think that baby would have a soul? Do you think a human with only a brain stem to perform autonomous functions has a soul?
Would you waste medical resources and money just to watch it die?

What if it was a different disease and you knew the baby will be confined to a wheelchair, with his tongue always out of his mouth and perpetually drooling till he dies at 30. Would you go through that 30 year inconvenience instead of aborting the fetus by the 10th week?

Yes.

violation contributes to the amount of children that end up starving to death in the horn of Africa but I'm sure if they had been aborted or if their births had been prevented some other ways, they wouldn't have had to suffer and starve to death before the age of 5. Where's the dignity in that? Soul or no soul, no one deserves to starve to death as a kid.

I don't believe in the existence of souls so that's not a factor. 

So not only do you not know how you came to exist , but you a just an animal with meat and bone , right ? No Soul , just a lump of flesh

When you die that's it , right.

Does this not sound daft to you ? Common tell me !!

frosbel:


So not only do you not know how you came to exist , but you a just an animal with meat and bone , right ? No Soul , just a lump of flesh

When you die that's it , right.

Does this not sound daft to you ? Common tell me !!

How does it sound daft? before you were born you knew nothing after you die you will also know nothing. . . You simply cease to exist. . .So you want to live forever , eh?. . .Does an elephant have a soul? What about a bacteria? What about a plant?. . .In what part of the human being does a soul live?. . . .What role does it play?. . .

@ OP
YES. . .

mazaje:

How does it sound daft? before you were born you knew nothing after you die you will also know nothing. . . You simply cease to exist. . .So you want to live forever , eh?. . .Does an elephant have a soul? What about a bacteria? What about a plant?. . .In what part of the human being does a soul live?. . . .What role does it play?. . .

@ OP
YES. . .

what is the soul?
@op
nope

what is the meaning of OP? Original post?

Woud I sanctioned the Abortion of  A Fetus That Will Grow Into A Severely Mentally Handicapped Kid?

No, never in a million years

How does it sound daft? before you were born you knew nothing after you die you will also know nothing. . . You simply cease to exist. . .So you want to live forever , eh?. . .Does an elephant have a soul? What about a bacteria? What about a plant?. . .In what part of the human being does a soul live?. . . .What role does it play?. . .

So what is the distinguishing factor between you and an elephant since they also possess some form of intelligence, physically speaking. Even bacteria are intelligent and respond to a variety of stimuli according to preference.

Are you really telling me that life is all for the here and now and nothing else.

Do you know that I have had spiritual experiences that make a huge laughter and mockery of your theory ? I will rather not share them though !!!

If life is all about been born, grow up , complete school, get a job, marry , have kids and die, then we might as well be a goat or a beetle. Why bother coming as a man with all the tribulations thereof.

Your logic is so flawed that it is unbelievable anyone could possibly hold on to such straw arguments.

Nice topic Martian.

Justcool has said a lot. Honestly i see the 'intellectual' case to say yes, and it is a strong one. Would i personally do it? No. Because I simply couldn't bring myself to take a life under those cirumstances.

Now this is interesting because i fully supported the abortion of that 9yr old brazilian girl whose pregnancy was threatning her life. In short, her fetus was killed that she might live. And she & her mother were excommunicated by the catholic church for doing it - nonsense if you ask me. Anyways, another case, you may have heard of Tim Tebow- famous college quarterback (now nfl player with Denver). His mother was strongly advised to abort him by all the medicals professionals at risk of death. She refused, citing her faith. She gave birth to a healthy boy who has turned out to be a great person.

Point is the professionals aren't always right. Deciding to go ahead and have the baby will be erring on the side of caution and life - thats the side i'll pick.

A lot of folks are against abortion for religious reasons and "moral" reasons if irreligious. I'm pro abortion under all circumstances except late term;but I would advise a woman to have a late term abortion if the baby has been shown to have a genetic defect that would require life long care. Religions teach that humans have souls and would even argue that zygotes have souls, so they shouldn't be aborted.

What if the baby is born an anencephalic and and will never develop a sense of self if it survives birth, does the baby have a "soul" and would you abort it?

Anencephaly (CAUTION FOR THE FAINT HEARTED)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_K
Did she have a soul?

Who makes the decision to destroy a womb based on this consideration and where do we draw the line  

This is the main problem I have with atheism and it is indeed scary.

A society where only the fittest survive and the weak are discarded is not only godless but intellectually immoral . amoral and evil.

And yes these are the same practices Stalin and Hitler used to exterminate countless innocent souls.

I keep saying that where there is atheism everything goes. No moral compass , everyone does what he or she thinks it right in their own eyes.

What great folly and madness .

"For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb." - Psalm 139 :13

Amujale:

what is the meaning of OP?
Woud I sanctioned the Abortion of A Fetus That Will Grow Into A Severely Mentally Handicapped Kid?
No, never in a million years

JeSoul:

Nice topic Martian.

Justcool has said a lot. Honestly i see the 'intellectual' case to say yes, and it is a strong one. Would i personally do it? No. Because I simply couldn't bring myself to take a life under those cirumstances.
Now this is interesting because i fully supported the abortion of that 9yr old brazilian girl whose pregnancy was threatning her life. In short, her fetus was killed that she might live. And she & her mother were excommunicated by the catholic church for doing it - nonsense if you ask me. Anyways, another case, you may have heard of Tim Tebow- famous college quarterback (now nfl player with Denver). His mother was strongly advised to abort him by all the medicals professionals at risk of death. She refused, citing her faith. She gave birth to a healthy boy who has turned out to be a great person.
Point is the professionals aren't always right. Deciding to go ahead and have the baby will be erring on the side of caution and life - thats the side i'll pick.

Tim Tebow sucks as a quarterback and he is only liked by the wide eyed masses because of his overt display of religiosity. Anyway lets forget about the third string quarterback.
I'm not talking about a situation like Tebow's moms', I mean severe mental retardation like Minamata(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_disease)disease diagnosed by this kind of prenatal tests.

[b]Noninvasive techniques
Fetal visualization
Ultrasound
Fetal echocardiography
Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI)
Radiography
Screening for neural tube defects (NTDs) - Measuring maternal serum alpha-fetoprotein (MSAFP)
Screening for fetal Down syndrome
Measuring MSAFP
Measuring maternal unconjugated estriol
Measuring maternal serum beta-human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)
Separation of fetal cells from the mother's blood
Assessment of fetal-specific DNA methylation ratio[1]
Invasive techniques
Fetal visualization
Embryoscopy
Fetoscopy
Fetal tissue sampling
Amniocentesis
Chorionic villus sampling (CVS)
Percutaneous umbilical blood sampling (PUBS)
Percutaneous skin biopsy
Other organ biopsies, including muscle and liver biopsy
Preimplantation biopsy of blastocysts obtained by in vitro fertilization
Cytogenetic investigations
Detection of chromosomal aberrations
Fluorescent in situ hybridization
Molecular genetic techniques
Linkage analysis using microsatellite markers
Restriction fragment length polymorphisms (RFLPs)
Single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)
DNA chip
Dynamic allele-specific hybridization (DASH[/b]

If after these kinds of tests, the doctors told you there is a chance of Minamata, would you abort it?

frosbel:

So what is the distinguishing factor between you and an elephant since they also possess some form of intelligence, physically speaking. Even bacteria are intelligent and respond to a variety of stimuli according to preference.

Are you really telling me that life is all for the here and now and nothing else.

Do you know that I have had spiritual experiences that make a huge laughter and mockery of your theory ? I will rather not share them though !!!

If life is all about been born, grow up , complete school, get a job, marry , have kids and die, then we might as well be a goat or a beetle. Why bother coming as a man with all the tribulations thereof.

Your logic is so flawed that it is unbelievable anyone could possibly hold on to such straw arguments.

Yep life is for the here and now and nothing else. . .No evidence to suggest other wise. . .No evidence so show that there is a part of human conciousness that survives bodily death. . .The purpose of life IMO is to strive to fill each of the days we have to spend here on earth (hours, and minutes) with meaning. We should strive to fill them with learning and gaining wisdom, with compassion for the less fortunate, with love and tolerance for friends, strangers and family, with doing any job we want to do or are supposed to do very well, with fighting against evil and obscurantism, to protect our planet and all the other animals that we share it together with and YES, with enjoying sexxxx, movies, music, dancing, entertainment, good food, arts, sports, parties, tourism, animals, cars, luxury, and other fascinating stuffs that life has to offer. . .These things don't last for ever but we still get pleasure and fulfilment from them. . .

One thing that if find absurd with the theistic argument is that life has to be everlasting for it to be meaningful  . . .Why should life have to be everlasting to be meaningful? It smacks of monumental egotism. Surely there is something monstrously egocentric in thinking that my life is of such transcendent significance that I should be an exception to cosmic laws, that my ego should survive when, animals, planets, stars, and even galaxies are no more.I know the usual bribery that religions have to offer of life after death if you follow their particular version of stories. . .Life doesn't have to be ever lasting for it to be meaningful. . . According to scientist Over 90 percent of all species that have ever lived are now no more, if that is true then we can conclude that nature is wasteful, things come and go, that is how nature is. . . .Death is inevitable. . .I know the need for people to want to live for ever but there is no evidence to show that humans have souls that survive bodily death. . .Again do animals have souls?. . .

frosbel:

So not only do you not know how you came to exist , but you a just an animal with meat and bone , right ? No Soul , just a lump of flesh
When you die that's it , right.
Does this not sound daft to you ? Common tell me !!

Why don't you go argue with the freshmen, this here is senior business. Yes, I am an animal made up of 11 organ systems working in concert to experience life. When I die, my ashes will be spread on Mars ( Science would have advanced enough by then and I should have the money to get it done)  and that's all she wrote.

frosbel:

"For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb." - Psalm 139 :13

What about all those spontaneous abortions(miscarriages)? Does he f@#$ up the knitting and start yelling MISSION ABORT! MISSION ABORT!!

philip0906:

what is the soul?
@op
nope

Soul is a religious construct. . . .

frosbel:

Who makes the decision to destroy a womb based on this consideration and where do we draw the line  

This is the main problem I have with atheism and it is indeed scary.

A society where only the fittest survive and the weak are discarded is not only godless but intellectually immoral . amoral and evil.

And yes these are the same practices Stalin and Hitler used to exterminate countless innocent souls.

I keep saying that where there is atheism everything goes. No moral compass , everyone does what he or she thinks it right in their own eyes.

What great folly and madness ,

According to reports, 20% or 1 in 5 pregnancies end in a miscarriage.
There is no definite explanation to why this happens, but they have found many different reasons for it. Sometimes the fetus is recognised as a hostile cell and killed by the mothers immune system, or sometimes there is an incompatibility between the blood types of the mother and unborn child that makes life impossible etc.

But it gets worse than this. According to some studies, there are actually a far higher number of miscarriages. Most of them happen so early that the woman never realises she was impregnated, like after a few days. This makes some people think that as much as 40% or 50% of all potential pregnancies ends up in miscarriage (And this is not even counting stillbirths). . . .

There is no denying this problem, and I think we can narrow the possibilites down to 3 explanations.

Either:
We are intelligently designed, and God intended this many miscarriages (God loves abortion).
OR
We are deteriorating because of original sin, and every year God kills half of all unborn children as punishment (God loves abortion).
OR
God doesn't love abortion because God doesn't exist. The complications tied to pregnancy and miscarriage are can easily be explained by evolutionary means according to scientist. There is no malevolence behind it, it's just how nature works.

"For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb." - Psalm 139 :13

So which God formed these babies. . . .The pics are too gross some might find it an eye sore. . .So I will just drop the link. . .

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f149/birth-defects-eugenics-35317/

Which God formed the babies in the link?

mazaje:

According to reports, 20% or 1 in 5 pregnancies end in a miscarriage.
There is no definite explanation to why this happens, but they have found many different reasons for it. Sometimes the fetus is recognised as a hostile cell and killed by the mothers immune system, or sometimes there is an incompatibility between the blood types of the mother and unborn child that makes life impossible etc.

But it gets worse than this. According to some studies, there are actually a far higher number of miscarriages. Most of them happen so early that the woman never realises she was impregnated, like after a few days. This makes some people think that as much as 40% or 50% of all potential pregnancies ends up in miscarriage (And this is not even counting stillbirths). . . .

There is no denying this problem, and I think we can narrow the possibilites down to 3 explanations.

Either:
We are intelligently designed, and God intended this many miscarriages (God loves abortion).
OR
We are deteriorating because of original sin, and every year God kills half of all unborn children as punishment (God loves abortion).
OR
God doesn't love abortion because God doesn't exist. The complications tied to pregnancy and miscarriage are can easily be explained by evolutionary means according to scientist. There is no malevolence behind it, it's just how nature works.

So which God formed these babies. . . .The pics are too gross some might find it an eye sore. . .So I will just drop the link. . .

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f149/birth-defects-eugenics-35317/

Which God formed the babies in the link?

Epic post. I'm a doctor and I can confirm everything above except that some authorities believe that the rate of spontaneous abortion is as high as 70-80%. Mother nature (some of you call her "God" is extremely cold-blooded when comes to getting rid of unwanted pregnancies. To claim that a zygote = a human being is just plain dumb.

^^

I tire ohhh. . .A high percentage pregnancies end up in spontaneous abortion naturally anyway so what's all the fuse all about?. . .If Frosbel's God exist then he is the greatest lover of abortions. . . .

Yes! I would abort or support the abortion. It would be heartless and thoughtless of me not to do so. Bringing up such a child means a lifetime of misery not only to the parents but to the child (even the child will begin to hate themselves). I've seen it in several families and it's not something I wish on anyone. Apart from the stress, the rumors people start peddling is enough to stigmatize the parents e.g I know a man whose wife died during child birth. The child is a "bit" reetarded. The guy was a struggling guy feeding from hand to mouth until he got a huge windfall from an oil and gas deal. Today, he has been labelled as a ritualist who used the life of his wife and daughter for blood rituals. Even his own relatives are among those peddling these rumours. That's Nigeria for you.

harakiri:

Yes! I would abort or support the abortion. It would be heartless and thoughtless of me not to do so. Bringing up such a child means a lifetime of misery not only to the parents but to the child (even the child will begin to hate themselves). I've seen it in several families and it's not something I wish on anyone. Apart from the stress, the rumors people start peddling is enough to stigmatize the parents e.g I know a man whose wife died during child birth. The child is a "bit" reetarded. The guy was a struggling guy feeding from hand to mouth until he got a huge windfall from an oil and gas deal. Today, he has been labelled as a ritualist who used the life of his wife and daughter for blood rituals. Even his own relatives are among those peddling these rumours. That's Nigeria for you.

No be small thing. . .Our people are completely lost. . . .

mazaje:

Soul is a religious construct. . . .

According to reports, 20% or 1 in 5 pregnancies end in a miscarriage.
There is no definite explanation to why this happens, but they have found many different reasons for it. Sometimes the fetus is recognised as a hostile cell and killed by the mothers immune system, or sometimes there is an incompatibility between the blood types of the mother and unborn child that makes life impossible etc.

Main cause of miscarriage :

'About half of all early miscarriages happen because of a problem in the way your genetic material (chromosomes) combined when your egg and your partner's Fluid joined during fertilisation. You may never find out why this has happened, but it's more likely to be due to chance than to any underlying problem with either you or your partner.' - Statement by BUPA consultants

Other cases can be attributed to a poor immune system, medical conditions such as diabetes or even social factors such as stress or depression.

But it gets worse than this. According to some studies, there are actually a far higher number of miscarriages. Most of them happen so early that the woman never realises she was impregnated, like after a few days. This makes some people think that as much as 40% or 50% of all potential pregnancies ends up in miscarriage (And this is not even counting stillbirths). . . .

and 

Either:
We are intelligently designed, and God intended this many miscarriages (God loves abortion).

But there is no GOD   

OR
We are deteriorating because of original sin, and every year God kills half of all unborn children as punishment (God loves abortion).

GOD does not exist 

OR
God doesn't love abortion because God doesn't exist. The complications tied to pregnancy and miscarriage are can easily be explained by evolutionary means according to scientist. There is no malevolence behind it, it's just how nature works.

Okay explain first , so that I can tear your theories to shreds.

I am not a medical scientist, but I know enough biology to understand that the complexities surrounding the development of a baby in a woman's womb are far from some coincidence or accidental chance .

The intelligence that involves the formation of a zygote through meiosis to it's development into a grown baby through mitosis,  is too specialised and complicated to attribute it to some random occurrence.

But let me stop here and give you a long rope , that  I can use to  'hang' you and your  theories with 

So which God formed these babies. . . .The pics are too gross some might find it an eye sore. . .So I will just drop the link. . .

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f149/birth-defects-eugenics-35317/

Horrendous to say the least.

But let be give you my thoughts.

1. Selfishness. When we abuse our bodies with drugs and alcohol these sorts of freaks of nature could happen
2. Immense Stress
3. Career women leaving off child bearing till their late 30s or 40s . Indeed western doctors have confirmed that pregnancy problems are more frequent in older women than younger.
4. Depleted uranium used in wars for example Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc
5. Nuclear disasters like the ones in  Chernobyl , Ukraine and Hiroshima , Japan. Many babies born were deformed.

These are just a few reasons, but you bet there are many more. One that strikes me as we speak is the drug industry and the tests they perform on humans worldwide, not to talk of some drugs which when taken to cure illnesses have adverse effect on other areas.

Why in your godless mind must everything be caused BY GOD. 

Where is our responsibility as Humans ? 

If GOD gave us life and a beautiful earth to live on but we abuse it to our own detriment, why do we blame, GOD

Get real !!!!!

frosbel:

I asked you a simple question where in the body does the soul reside and what exactly is its function?. . . .

Main cause of miscarriage :

'About half of all early miscarriages happen because of a problem in the way your genetic material (chromosomes) combined when your egg and your partner's Fluid joined during fertilisation. You may never find out why this has happened, but it's more likely to be due to chance than to any underlying problem with either you or your partner.' - Statement by BUPA consultants

Other cases can be attributed to a poor immune system, medical conditions such as diabetes or even social factors such as stress or depression.

Yes. . .some 20-50 percent of pregnancies end up in spontaneous abortion any way. . . .Is it your God that is forming babies and making sure that the fetus is recognised as a hostile cell and killed by the mothers immune system, or  is it your God that sometimes makes sure that there is an incompatibility between the blood types of the mother and unborn child that makes life impossible?. . . You said God is the one that makes babies and he is against abortion, no?. . . 

and 

But there is no GOD   

All am saying is that if your God exist then he loves abortion, because so many pregnancies end up in abortion naturally. . .Sometimes with out the woman knowing. . .

GOD does not exist 

Assuming he does then he is most definitely a lover of abortion. . .

Okay explain first , so that I can tear your theories to shreds.

I am not a medical scientist, but I know enough biology to understand that the complexities surrounding the development of a baby in a woman's womb are far from some coincidence or accidental chance .

The intelligence that involves the formation of a zygote through meiosis to it's development into a grown baby through mitosis,  is too specialised and complicated to attribute it to some random occurrence.

But let me stop here and give you a long rope , that  I can use to  'hang' you and your  theories with 

What is this? Complex as the whole process is it is VERY imperfect and is vulnerable to many dysfunctional. . . .Nature is wasteful. . . .

Horrendous to say the least.

But let be give you my thoughts.

1. Selfishness. When we abuse our bodies with drugs and alcohol these sorts of freaks of nature could happenr
2. Immense Stress
3. Career women leaving off child bearing till their late 30s or 40s . Indeed western doctors have confirmed that pregnancy problems are more frequent in older women than younger.
4. Depleted uranium used in wars for example Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc
5. Nuclear disasters like the ones in  Chernobyl , Ukraine and Hiroshima , Japan. Many babies born were deformed.

These are just a few reasons, but you bet there are many more. One that strikes me as we speak is the drug industry and the tests they perform on humans worldwide, not to talk of some drugs which when taken to cure illnesses have adverse effect on other areas.

Why in your godless mind must everything be caused BY GOD. 

Where is our responsibility as Humans ? 

I thought your said your God is the one that creates babies, am just asking you if he is the same God that created those babies? A simple yes or no will do. . . .

If GOD gave us life and a beautiful earth to live on but we abuse it to our own detriment, who do we blame, GOD . Get real !!!!!

Quite a lot of birth defects are as a result of genetics which is a natural occurrence. . .Genetic problems caused when one or more genes doesn't work properly or part of a gene is missing. . .Problems with chromosomes, such as having an extra chromosome or missing part of a chromosome is also the cause of many birth defect. . .Is it your God that is responsible for all these?. . . .Besides environmental and other factors like alcohol consumption etc

mazaje:

Soul is a religious construct. . . .
According to reports, 20% or 1 in 5 pregnancies end in a miscarriage.
There is no definite explanation to why this happens, but they have found many different reasons for it. Sometimes the fetus is recognised as a hostile cell and killed by the mothers immune system, or sometimes there is an incompatibility between the blood types of the mother and unborn child that makes life impossible etc.

But it gets worse than this. According to some studies, there are actually a far higher number of miscarriages. Most of them happen so early that the woman never realises she was impregnated, like after a few days. This makes some people think that as much as 40% or 50% of all potential pregnancies ends up in miscarriage (And this is not even counting stillbirths). . . .

There is no denying this problem, and I think we can narrow the possibilites down to 3 explanations.

Either:
We are intelligently designed, and God intended this many miscarriages (God loves abortion).
OR
We are deteriorating because of original sin, and every year God kills half of all unborn children as punishment (God loves abortion).
OR
God doesn't love abortion because God doesn't exist. The complications tied to pregnancy and miscarriage are can easily be explained by evolutionary means according to scientist. There is no malevolence behind it, it's just how nature works.

So which God formed these babies. . . .The pics are too gross some might find it an eye sore. . .So I will just drop the link. . .

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f149/birth-defects-eugenics-35317/

Which God formed the babies in the link?

who defined it that way?u or a generally accepted definition?

All am saying is that if your God exist then he loves abortion, because so many pregnancies end up in abortion naturally. . .Sometimes with out the woman knowing. . .

Since d arguementis that God is the creator and we are the creatures,Does a creator have any limit to what he should do with his creatures?if he does,who determines those limits?the creature or the creator?

philip0906:

Since d arguementis that God is the creator and we are the creatures,Does a creator have any limit to what he should do with his creatures?if he does,who determines those limits?the creature or the creator?

Lets assume your God exist, what am saying is that he loves abortion since he is responsible for all the millions of spontaneous abortions that are taking place all the time, no?. . .

mazaje:

Lets assume your God exist, what am saying is that[b] he loves abortion since he is responsible for all the millions of spontaneous abortions[/b] that are taking place all the time, no?. . .

[img]http://3.bp..com/-13EXDuY84oI/TfjXuTt-TCI/AAAAAAAAApM/cUkplvpv6fo/s640/lol-30.gif[/img]

[^^

I won't

Martian:

Tim Tebow sucks as a quarterback and he is only liked by the wide eyed masses because of his overt display of religiosity. Anyway lets forget about the third string quarterback.

Ah! I see you know your NFL  perhaps you may be eating a bit of your words after Tebows nice showing this afternoon? lol. He will have a nice NFL career. Many many QB sensations from college do not translate to sensational NFL qbs. But he still has time and has the work ethic to at least be decent. And when you have squash puppies like Jason Campbell being starters . . . common Tebow can certainly start in the league.

  Anyways . . . I can talk NFL forever  which team (if any) do you support? (lemme see if you even have mouth to talk )

I'm not talking about a situation like Tebow's moms', I mean severe mental retardation like Minamata(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_disease)disease diagnosed by this kind of prenatal tests.

As Justcool said, it comes down to how one chooses to apprehend life and the world around us. Some of us have chosen to govern our choices by more than just the physical. Will I abort such a fetus? It may be yes or no. When faced with that choice, I will look at the physical evidence, I will also consider the spiritual 'evidence' and I will make my decision. So while my default is to choose life, I will not rule out any and all chances of an abortion for such cases as you listed. Cheers bro.

Thought-provoking thread

i dont get involved in people's lives to that extent, ie to the extent i should be passing judgement on choices that concern only them, and which do not directly call for my involvement.


everyone has their own challenges to face.