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The Trinity - A Simple Test - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Poll: Which of the four things in the opening post do you believe?

I agree with only number 1: 18% (2 votes)
I agree with only numbers 1 & 2: 0% (0 votes)
I agree with only numbers 1 & 3: 0% (0 votes)
I agree with only numbers 1 & 4: 0% (0 votes)
I agree with a different combination: 18% (2 votes)
I agree with ALL: 63% (7 votes)
This poll has ended

Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ / About The Trinity / Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. (1) (2) (3) (4)

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Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Enigma(m): 10:11am On Feb 19, 2012
@ Nuke

I ended my post #24 yesterday in the manner abbreviated below:

. . . the question that I posed . . . remains: how can Jesus be God and The Father be God at the same time? To this of course we add, how can Jesus be God, The Father be God and the Holy Spirit be God at the same time. I suppose one honest answer would be to say: "we don't know - but that is what the Bible reveals". I can live with that.

cool
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 10:17am On Feb 19, 2012
Great to see you re-emphasize the above

It solves the problem this thread poses

WE CANNOT explain these things adequately and so needs find where our confluence of agreement is which we have seen thus far

Can we then agree to sheath swords and apply selves to more productive ventures standing against the real enemies within Christianity ?
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Enigma(m): 10:24am On Feb 19, 2012
nuclearboy:

Great to see you re-emphasize the above

It solves the problem this thread poses

WE CANNOT explain these things adequately and so needs find where our confluence of agreement is which we have seen thus far

Can we then agree to sheath swords and apply selves to more productive ventures standing against the real enemies within Christianity ?

There really never was a "fight" as such --- so not really an issue of sheathing swords.

More importantly: even though it may not be obvious, this is part of the fight against the real enemy: even when we Christians disgaree, we still need to have clear understandings of our different/respective positions --- that is how we can reduce vulnerabilities to the real enemy and his advocates. smiley

cool
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:05pm On Feb 19, 2012
The Trinity In Creation

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" (Genesis 1:1–3).

These incomparable words open God’s written revelation to man, telling us how our Time/Space/Matter universe came to exist.  No other religious writings, ancient or modern, do this.  All others begin with the assumption of an eternal, self-existing universe.  The truth is, however, that the eternal, self-existing, transcendent, omnipotent Triune God simply called the universe into being by His word.  "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made. . . . For He spake, and it was done" (Psalm 33:6,9).

The Hebrew for "God" is the uni-plural Elohim, a plural noun (as noted by the "im" ending), yet normally represented by a singular pronoun "He." This is the first foreshadowing of the marvelous doctrine of the Trinity—only one Creator God, yet functioning as three divine Persons.  It is significant that His created universe is actually a tri-universe, with each of its distinct components ("beginning" = time; "heaven" = space; "earth" = matter) comprising and pervading the whole universe.  Just as the Father is the source and background of all being, so space is the background of all that happens in the physical universe.  Just as the Son manifests and speaks for the Father, so matter manifests and functions in space.  Just as the Spirit interpretes and energizes the Son and the Father in human experience, so space and matter are interpreted and experienced in phenomena operating in time.

The Father planned the work of creation, the Son did the work ("all things were made by Him"—John 1:3), and the Spirit energized it ("the Spirit of God moved").  The Triune God created and now sustains our tri-universe! HMM

For more . . . .
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:23pm On Feb 19, 2012
The Trinity in the Old Testament

"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me."(Isaiah 48:16)

This a clear Old Testament indication of the Trinity. The Son, speaking, is being "sent" by the Father and the Spirit.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:33pm On Feb 19, 2012
Enigma:

@Olaadegbu

Thanks.

[digression]I was asking after you recently; I wondered if you followed Dawkins' appearance on Radio 4 with Giles Fraser where Dawkins made a fool of himself to the extent he even called "Oh God" when he became stuck. smiley [/digression]

Thanks for bringing my attention to how he put his foot in his mouth again. It was in today's newspapers, and this goes on to show that these so called "atheists" are actually intellectual schizophrenics; They know that there is God but they chose to believe that He doesn't exist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101289/Richard-Dawkins-unable-remember-Charles-Darwins-seminal-work.html
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 11:53pm On Feb 19, 2012
OLAADEGBU:

Thanks for bringing my attention to how he put his foot in his mouth again. It was in today's newspapers, and this goes on to show that these so called "atheists" are actually intellectual schizophrenics; [size=15pt]They know that there is God but they chose to believe that He doesn't exist[/size].

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101289/Richard-Dawkins-unable-remember-Charles-Darwins-seminal-work.html


They don't choose to believe He doesn't exist! They merely say it just to support their earlier postulations even though they know the truth
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Image123(m): 2:14am On Feb 20, 2012
nuclearboy:


They don't choose to believe He doesn't exist! They merely say it just to support their earlier postulations even though they know the truth
There you go. The big fools have said with their mouth, 'There is no God'.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Image123(m): 2:27am On Feb 20, 2012
Back to topic iguess. Why's Jesus calling the Holy Spirit ANOTHER comforter if it's the same? Was He being dubious on the cross when He said 'why has thou forsaken me?' and Who's fooling who when He 'died' on the cross and resurrected 3days later.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by numo86(m): 6:31am On Feb 20, 2012
1 funny thing i'v noticed is that trinitarians end up being unitarians or STOP worshiping Jesus without even knowing it,
Why do they still say in "JESUS NAME" after prayer?
If Jesus was d almighty GOD or Yahweh, who will be d mediator then.,,
, who will intercede between man & Yahweh then
Or mayb Jesus will be shifting positions immediately, After interceding & pleading on mankinds behalf as d mediator he then runs back, changes to d almighty God & then recieves d prayers, shape shifting!!!!??,
Now i see why d catholics pray through mary because they'v made d high priest & mediator of Yahweh, Yahweh himself,
Trinity has realy turned worship upside down,
, madness!!!!
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 6:51am On Feb 20, 2012
Maybe I am wrong but I still see this thing different!

I guess we all here believe in the concept of human Spirit, Soul and Body. While the Spirit remains the essence or powerhouse, the body is the physical reality, the representation and souls remain the "Will", the character.

The Father I see as the Essence, who the other 2 are tied to but removed and not to be found outside of them just as none can identify the Spirit of a dead! Jesus would then be the person we see and relate to and the soul the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was not being dubious on the Cross - He was "removed" albeit temporarily! At risk of annoying those reading this, I'd use a mad man on the street as an example - no longer in his mind, the madman is still himself while separated from his essence. God remains much more complicated and if we truly believe He is as powerful as we like to claim, this surely ought not be a problem for the Almighty who can show as a small still voice, a fire before Israel, a dove appearing at Jesus Baptism etc! Or do we say God had left heaven when the dove came upon Christ?

Another comforter is even simpler - one (Jesus) was as it were, finite general and the other was to be personal to each of us. In that sense, it was "another" but the same essence.

Whichever way we look at itn my questions

1. Is Jesus less than God
2. Is the Holy Spirit less than God
3. Who then is more superior between Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Image123(m): 7:34am On Feb 20, 2012
I agree with thine post. To your question, they are co-equal.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Snowwy: 8:12am On Feb 20, 2012
@numo86,
I went back to recheck the NIV and noted they had a footnote that there was no record of the father, the Word and the Holy spirit in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century. However, it still does not refute that God, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. Acts 5:3-4, John 10:29.

However, what do you have to say about Romans 8:1? There was No footnote for that in NIV as against KJV.


(EDITED)
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 8:15am On Feb 20, 2012
NIV is a notoriously compromised version of the Bible!

Just saying
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by numo86(m): 9:10am On Feb 20, 2012
@snowy, just d way Yahweh & Jesus are one, so also we christians are one with Jesus, so also a husband is 1 with his wife,but 1 always greater than the other,
Just as Jesus is greater than man, so also Yahweh is greater than Jesus, so also a husband is greater than his wife, they are one in unity but never one in strength & abilities & authority
1 corinthians 11:3 , john 17:21-23, Oneness is not a far-fetched ideology, ,
and there's 1 thing i'm so 100% sure of, That d bible we are holding is not exactly what d apostles wrote & had, there definitly has been some discrepancies, but it doesnt make me doubt d bible, but if 1 read d bible witout any external influence from any doctrine,d person will conclude that Jesus is subordinate to his Father, that is why he is called a son,high priest,mediator, he should discard those names if he's equal with his God(Yahweh)

@nuclear boy, if ur confused please pick ya bible & read 1 corinthians 11:3, i'v quoted this same scripture a million times, and guess what??The holy spirit is not even in d chain of headship & those who are subordinates, And mind u that 1corinthians 11:3 was a scripture written after Jesus ascension, infact Jesus was in heaven when apostle paul penned those words,
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:42am On Feb 20, 2012
nuclearboy:

Whichever way we look at itn my questions

1. Is Jesus less than God
2. Is the Holy Spirit less than God
3. Who then is more superior between Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

image123 answered correctly that they are co-equal since they all have the nature of God. Some folks may object that because Jesus said the Father is "greater" than Him (John 14:28), this must mean Jesus is a lesser God. The truth is that Jesus is equal with the Father in His divine nature (John 10:30). He was only positionally lower than the Father from the standpoint of His becoming a servant by taking on human likeness (Philipians 2:6-11). If we are talking positionally, then, the Father was "greater" than Jesus.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Snowwy: 10:39am On Feb 20, 2012
@numo, ok i get your point. I thought you were against the oneness. I now understand you were talking of hierachy within them.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Snowwy: 10:43am On Feb 20, 2012
numo86:

@snowy, just d way Yahweh & Jesus are one, so also we christians are one with Jesus, so also a husband is 1 with his wife,but 1 always greater than the other,
Just as Jesus is greater than man, so also Yahweh is greater than Jesus, so also a husband is greater than his wife, they are one in unity but never one in strength & abilities & authority

Ok numo86, I now understand you are not against the oneness but you are speaking about the hierachy within the oneness. Fine then.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by DeepSight(m): 10:54am On Feb 20, 2012
numo86:

1 funny thing i'v noticed is that trinitarians end up being unitarians or STOP worshiping Jesus without even knowing it,
Why do they still say in "JESUS NAME" after prayer?
If Jesus was d almighty GOD or Yahweh, who will be d mediator then.,,
, who will intercede between man & Yahweh then
Or mayb Jesus will be shifting positions immediately, After interceding & pleading on mankinds behalf as d mediator he then runs back, changes to d almighty God & then recieves d prayers, shape shifting!!!!??,
Now i see why d catholics pray through mary because they'v made d high priest & mediator of Yahweh, Yahweh himself,
Trinity has realy turned worship upside down,
, madness!!!!

Hmmmm.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 11:20am On Feb 20, 2012
@numo86:

Kindly AVOID using terms like confused when referring to nuclearboy - such terms are NOT welcome!

@Olaadegbu:

The issue of hierarchy and a Father "greater" than Jesus! Using my same allegory of the human Spirit, Soul and Body, would you be willing therefore to state that one is "GREATER" than the others? Of course we all understand that the Spirit is what makes the life but could that "spirit" have expression outside of Soul (character) and Body (presence)? I hope you get my point that none is thus greater since there is interdependence between them!

Using that line of reasoning, you find that "supremacy" is not a word that can be used in such a union! Rather, it more closely resembles an "old wives tale" based on "what is unseen is considered (note that word) greater not because it is but because we ascribe more to it due to fear of the unknown! In that sense, for me, Jesus is enough
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by DeepSight(m): 11:45am On Feb 20, 2012
nuclearboy:


The issue of hierarchy and a Father "greater" than Jesus!

Didnt the guy himself say that.

Thank you, I apologize, sorry, forgive me
*Runs away very fast*
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 1:12pm On Feb 20, 2012
grin Chei, see yabbing! embarassed Werin dey worry DeepRun DeepSight wey you dey run from nuclearbaby?

Nuclearboy don "repent" so no wahala!

Anyway, what I meant was that while he referred to that and seemed to have put across a valid point ,I still had an opinion on it.

I am simply contesting the issue of hierachy and "greater than" on the basis I have explained below

For further clarity, let us use the Brain, the Hands (both accounted as ONE) and the eyes (also as ONE)

Which is most important?

Deep-Sprinter, Which is better? To lose both eyes OR to lose both Hands or to be an slowpoke/mongoloid?

Which of these 3 would thus be "greater"? Blind dude, no-hands dude or zero-brains dude?

Now transpose - God without Character, God without Hands or God without Spirit/Purpose?

Then you will understand my point that all are equal just as Jesus made us understand that no part of the body is more important than another!

If you don't agree, please block your bunghole for 2 weeks and you'll get my point tongue
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Zikkyy(m): 1:38pm On Feb 20, 2012
@Nuke, where have you been smiley
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by DeepSight(m): 2:01pm On Feb 20, 2012
nuclearboy:


If you don't agree, please block your bunghole for 2 weeks and you'll get my point tongue


Err. . . I go suffer well well, but even with the worst suffering, and even death, the spirit survives. . . .

Thank you, I apologize, sorry, forgive me
*Runs away very fast*
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 2:03pm On Feb 20, 2012
^ Nuclearbaby has been around O, sucking his thumb & looking over your shoulders to be sure you were who he believed.

He is very proud of many people here including some currently disagreeing!

Zikko-Baba, God be with you

@deep-run:

grin you don mend finally
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by MyJoe: 4:20pm On Feb 20, 2012
nuclearboy:

NIV is a notoriously compromised version of the Bible!

Just saying
Err. . . can you explain a bit, sir? I swear by the NIV.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 7:20pm On Feb 20, 2012
^^ Google will clarify my point from the POV of the Christian who's not being politically correct
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Ptolomeus(m): 9:58pm On Feb 20, 2012
I am so sorry and so little analysis fanaticism ,
I regret that in defense of the Catholic god change the words of the Bible ,
I think that many who cite the Bible have not read a single word of the Old Testament, and are based on texts adapted doubtful that even changing the original version ,
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by MyJoe: 10:14pm On Feb 20, 2012
Now, there's an interesting POV - that in the matter of the accuracy of Bible translations there's uniquely a "POV of the Christian who's not being politically correct". Not having to be politically correct, myself, I don't share the POV that this POV exists. smiley

Sorry for derailing.
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by nuclearboy(m): 10:22pm On Feb 20, 2012
^^ Never imagined I'd see this day when you too'd , ,

Anyway, a start would be looking at "gender based" translations in the NIV which tend towards a more politically correct equality of the se-xes!

And I believed you to be of those who do\did not require spoon-feeding. That respect made me throw it open "loosely" earlier believing even the most cursory google search would clarify much.! Its alright though, you still remain very much respected!
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Ptolomeus(m): 10:46pm On Feb 20, 2012
I would like to know that someone is addressing you.
I do not think google search is the best way to study the Bible.
I do not think that a Bible international translation is guarantee of anything.
I expressed that here, in the forum, there are people who cite biblical passages changing context and content.
Do not think anyone here eat with a spoon and I think me and expressed with absolute courtesy and respect.
My greetings
Re: The Trinity - A Simple Test by Image123(m): 11:38pm On Feb 20, 2012
Greetings Ptolotolomeus, the one who shot me on the head recently?

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