A lot of questions have been asked about the separation of Religion and Government. Many people say that religion should be an integral part of government and that even the judges of courts should base their decisions on their personal religious belief and not on the secular laws. Proponents of separation of religion and state says integrating the two would cause problems especially in a multi religious country.

Personally I feel that religion should be kept apart from the functioning of any country because comparing secular and religious countries the secular ones seem to run better, e.g. western Governments as opposed to the mid-eastern ones. I need your candid opinion here guys, ok?

Yes, there needs to be a seperation. Look at asia and how well thier governments are run with no religion. same with many western countries. Nigeria needs to tackle that sharia problem up north

i dont think seperation of stae and religion can go in any society.The tow are intertwined and any separation bring about chaos and violence in a society...... The prists are mandated by God almighty to see that peace reigns in their respective domain (take note)!

In a single religion state, it is hard to separate religion from Governance. this is the big problem in the Middle East which the west cant comprehend. On the Contrary, for secular states, Religion should be excluded from Governance, otherwise you have the problems like in Nigeria and India where everyone thinks their religion is supreme.
However, the calmour for religion in Governance is due to the decay in the democratic process whereby our values for life and dignity is been traded for a democtratic treatment of issues like Gay, Lesbianism, Capital punishment, etc. Most religions are soundly against this and when democraZy is being bent to accomodate these tabboos as a sociental norm , with rights - its a big slap on religious beliefs. This explains why the Middle East would not want the Western type of democrazy. its easier in Asia as the mostly dont belief in anything, anyway.

it seems easy 4 most guyz to say religion should be included with the state but what about multi religious countries. Whose religion should be incoperated

Lawyers in the house.

Governement should have nothing to do with religion...some people are atheist and not all of them would be happy if you judge them on some beliefs they don't believe in. Think of it this way.

A "stone" worshipper goes in front of a "God" worshippers houses, to get a stone so he can worship. And then the "God" worshiper decided to send him to court for taking his property. and when they get to court the God worshiper says, the Bible says thou shall not worship any graven image. the judge will be confused and everything will dabaru. They will leave the government part and the whole case will turn into a "wat-we-worship-case".

I hope you get me.. i am just saying government should be government and religion should be religion. No conflicts.

@Stevo
you said the priests, which priests- Budduist, shinto,hindu or moslems

My opinion on this is that it's not right to base the law governing people of diverse religious background on religion. If you want to do htat, which religion will they adopt. Nobody will ever accept that his religion is inferior to any other one.

Religion is a very sensitive thing so it should be left out of the law.

God has created man as morality beings so we can make our laws based on this morality.

U all talk about separating religion from state and as an example you cite east asian countries as non-religious. Let me give you an example of a religious state that is prospering very well, ISREAL. Judaism plays a very active role in daily life and in government. Yet they prosper. their per capita income is around $20,000. that tells you that the crap about separating religion from state is bullshit.what matters is whether the state takes an active role in developing its own people.
Religion is also about social values. In nigeria, most people either claim to be Christians or Muslims. The other religions have a very low population (barely up to ten thousand adherents) excluding the animists who still manage(like the Druse in Isreal and Turkey) to hide under the cloak of muslim or christian. As religion can be said to be a way of life, it would be utter folly to remove it from social life because we want to copy the scientific atheism of the West.
Contrary to what you have been told by earlier posts. China is communist in name but Taoist and Confucist in outlook. Shinto is still the state religion of Japan. Buddhism still plays a role in the Koreas, Singapore and others. Russia gives the Russian Orthodox church predominance over other churches. The same in britain with the anglican church.

Bibi-2:

In a single religion state, it is hard to separate religion from Governance. this is the big problem in the Middle East which the west can't comprehend. On the Contrary, for secular states, Religion should be excluded from Governance, otherwise you have the problems like in Nigeria and India where everyone thinks their religion is supreme.
However, the calmour for religion in Governance is due to the decay in the democratic process whereby our values for life and dignity is been traded for a democtratic treatment of issues like Gay, Lesbianism, Capital punishment, etc. Most religions are soundly against this and when democraZy is being bent to accomodate these tabboos as a sociental norm , with rights - its a big slap on religious beliefs. This explains why the Middle East would not want the Western type of democrazy. its easier in Asia as the mostly don't belief in anything, anyway.

@bibi the problem in nigeria is not religious, it is ethnic. the religious violence we had was ethnically motivated so that is not a point.

DE-KING:

My opinion on this is that it's not right to base the law governing people of diverse religious background on religion. If you want to do htat, which religion will they adopt. Nobody will ever accept that his religion is inferior to any other one.

Religion is a very sensitive thing so it should be left out of the law.

God has created man as morality beings so we can make our laws based on this morality.

@DE-KING morality is relative. conscience can be dulled. what you find insluting is acceptable to others. Religions are the best ways of miantaining social values. As long as people remain religious and not hopelessly materialistic as in the West, religion must and will always play a role in social life.
All experiments aimed at removing religion from normal life have failed. Usually they are characterised by the replacement of one religion by a less spiritual one e.g christianity replaced by communism(worship of the state) --Russia. Islam by materialism(Iraq).

What we should be campaigning for is religious freedom not the absence of religion in social life.

So would u like nigeria to be run by moslem lawz. if not what makes u think anyother person would accept running the country by ur own beliefs

I don't mind it if moslems propound laws motivated by religion as long as it is put to a referendum and not foisted on every body (or possibly the guys we elected to the national assembly will have to vote on that.). Nigeria being a democracy, any unfavourable law put to a referendum should fail. Example: If a law was made banning the drinking of alcohol, i won't mind because personally i rarely drink alcohol however i wouldn't like it if it is foisted on us. The important thing is that any law should recognise and respect civil liberties.

For example the laws in the united states and most countries were initially motivated by the ten commandments. the arab states are still governed by a modernised form of sharia which has greater respect for human rights. the only difference between them and the West is in the severity of punishment. And they have some of the lowest urban crime rates (In egypt and Saudi you can leave your car and walk away with the engine running and still find it untouched.)

Let me give you an example of a religious state that is prospering very well, ISREAL. Judaism plays a very active role in daily life and in government. Yet they prosper.

@ Kodewrita. That state like you mentioned above has about 77% of it's population practise Judaism. Now compare that to our dear country Nigeria where the North is predominantly Muslims, South predominantly Christians. No one of these two religions would accept to allow the beliefs of the other to be infused into the law more than it's own beliefs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying religion and power can be seperated. Ofcourse it plays a major role in our lives. Afterall, many of us that started school in Nigeria where thought religious issues in during our tender ages.
My point is that we should not allow this issue of religion to cause more problem as the issue of religion is a very sensitive one.

kodewrita:

the problem in nigeria is not religious, it is ethnic. the religious violence we had was ethnically motivated so that is not a point

@ Kodewrita, the problems are both religious and ethnic but here we are centering on religious. If they are only ethnic as you claim, why are religious worship places burnt down during violent periods. In the North where most of this violence occurs, they are predominantly muslims.

Personally, you might not have any problems with religion but can you say that about every other Nigerian?

Am 100% in support of separation of religion and state. Most of the so called men of God are the major problem of this country.

Most politician rely on the gullibility of the masses in order to perpetrate their nefarious activities.

What do you expect when a governor is giving millions of state money to build a mosque and giving nothing to build churches or shrines. Since what is good for the goose is also good for the gander, why the discrimination, or what do you think will be going on in the mind of those that are not getting these largese from the govt. of the day.     

Japan, China and most European countries have done away with the cohabitation of religion and state and they are reaping the benefits.

It's high time Nigeria follow suite.

Have anyone think about those quranic/arabic verses on the national currency and the logo of the Nigerian Army, what are they doing there. I think the meaning ought to have been translated to English which is our official language, that is a classical example of segregation and descrimnation since i as a person and millions of others don't know the meaning of what's written on what we are toiling for, day and night.

Nigeria need a serious rebirth, even if it's going to be through caesarian  section.

joftech:

Am 100% in support of separation of religion and state. Most of the so called men of God are the major problem of this country.

Most politician rely on the gullibility of the masses in order to perpetrate their nefarious activities.

What do you expect when a governor is giving millions of state money to build a mosque and giving nothing to build churches or shrines. Since what is good for the goose is also good for the gander, why the discrimination, or what do you think will be going on in the mind of those that are not getting these largese from the govt. of the day.

Japan, China and most European countries have done away with the cohabitation of religion and state and they are reaping the benefits.

It's high time Nigeria follow suite.

Have anyone think about those quranic/arabic verses on the national currency and the logo of the Nigerian Army, what are they doing there. I think the meaning ought to have been translated to English which is our official language, that is a classical example of segregation and descrimnation since i as a person and millions of others don't know the meaning of what's written on what we are toiling for, day and night.

Nigeria need a serious rebirth, even if it's going to be through caesarian section.

@joftech the use of arabic script on our currency and logos is a recognition of the fact that some people are literate in arabic but not in English (its a way of ensuring they are not left out.). apart from that the mottos are clearly written elsewhere. you don't need to know what it means, its already boldly written "N10 ".
As to the issue of japan or china doing away with religion, let me tell you that the largest religion after taoism in china is Islam and let me tell you that Confucianism which is a religion that deals with good manners is still seen in the way the chinese think and these customs are still kept.

This is what i believe "The state can make any law it wants as long as it does not contravene the religious beliefs of the citizens". e.g making it compulsory to marry two wives (so as to increase the population) in a Christian country or allowing homosexualism in a country like Iran. I believe religion should guide but not control. All Christian laws can be reduced to two : Love of God , Love of man. I believe all laws are geared towards this. so the issue of separating religion from the state is a non-starter.

Don't tell me all our problems are a result of religion. what would you say about Ghana or South Africa where almost everyone is a Xtian. They are growing faster than Nigeria.


What we should campaign against is religious and ethnic intolerance. we should also try to reform our institutions.

Kodewrita

Point of correction NIGERIA IS THE MOST RELIGIOUS COUNTRY ON EARTH, far more religious than any other country even Saudi Arabia and Iran.
China, Russia, and other east asian countries do not allow religion to dictate how a country is run and european countries which were ruled by religious goverments started to progress after they ousted religion from goverment.

@sage then explain why spain is still stauchly catholic yet they have progressed in a comparable manner to other european countries? Greece too.

I agree nigeria is the most religious but i believe religious considerations affect us less where planning is concerned compared to ethnic considertions. the arabic script and the entrance of the country into the OIC was ethnically and not religiously motivated. Its a fact that most of the crises in this country that occured between Muslims and Xtians occured between Yorubas and Hausa/Fulani or between Ibo and Hausa. Most of the people concerned are unemployed. You don't see an employed muslim or christian in nigeria who has a future to look forward to, fighting . Our main problems are nepotism, embezzlement and institutional myopia.

If you know anything about buddhism and confucianism, you will find out they have more in common with communism or socialism than islam or the other eastern religions. both do not discuss the existence of a god, they only talk about the achievement of an ideal state HERE ON EARTH. so your belief that it doesn't control the japanese is false. They have an art of governing (similar to bushido "way of the warrior" and other buddhist concepts) and it is derived from buddhist bases mingled with western concepts.

they call it 'kanryodo'. search google.

same in china where confucius wrote articles about the perfect bureaucrat. he even instituted civil exams

if spain were governed accordain to catholic laws, why have they legalised gay marriages and gay adoption of children.
What i am saying is not just about the faith of thecomon people, its incoperating religion into governance.

woohoo guys, take it easy. I don't even know where to start or what opinion to support.

@ sage and all other that believe in his opinion. I would say just like kodewrita mentioned that there are still some countries governed by some aspects of the religious belief of that country. Even in Asia just like he mentioned.

The issue here is , Should there be separation?. I think it is for the citizens of that particular state to decide, whether they like the religious governed law or not. Cultures also play an important role in the state laws mind you, and also applied in some countries still. An example is Japan, the act of "hara kiri" (belly cutting, honourable suicide) , which in some countries, if you attempt that, you would go to jail. . How can suicide be honourable, if you asker me. Anyways thats all from me.

Am stoutly in support of separation of religion and state. Take a look at what is happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Zamfara etc.

Did it not infringe on the rights of citizen of those countries and state that are not in the mainstream religion.

Me as a person I respect all religion and am liberal, the only way a state can be fair is to do away with religion in state matters.

joftech:

Did it not infringe on the rights of citizen of those countries and state that are not in the mainstream religion.

That's very true. To avoid messing things up, SEPERATE!

DE-KING:

joftech link=topic=877.msg17737#msg17737 date=1122622173:

Did it not infringe on the rights of citizen of those countries and state that are not in the mainstream religion.

That's very true. To avoid messing things up, SEPERATE!

It doesn't. In Saudi, they don't force you to be a muslim. they only prevent their muslim citizens from drinking alcohol and they made them follow the injunctions of their jointly held religion.
Ask yourself why they haven't revolted. the ones that are revolting are asking for stricter laws while the govt favours the status quo or even relaxing some.

As Kazey said, it should left for nigerians to determine how big a role religion should play in their lives and govt.

Actually, kodewrita, you seem to only point out states that have one predominant religion. What some of us here are saiying is that Nigeria is a multi-religious country with two major religions, Christianity and Islam.

Obviously I am only doing that to take the argument to the extreme. I of course agree that in a multiracial/multireligious environment , secularism is a safe bet. Turkey is 98% muslim but the army generals enforce secularism as propounded by the founder Kemal Ataturk but at the same time they don't allow vices like marijuana and drug use, homosexualism (in Islam its a vice) into their society all in the name of democracy. thats what we should be aiming for. Religious freedom and economic prosperity without destroying or eroding our social values all in the name of democracy. Ok, let me give you an extreme example, Lebanon according to someone on this site, allows sex with animals as long as its a female animal (eg goat, cow, dog). do we allow that all in the name of democracy?

Nigerians should strive for a country where both muslim and christian can live peacefully without losing our values to the flood of western culture.

Kodewrita, israel is a secular state. Just because a lot of people there are jews doesnt make it a religious country. Singapore, indonesia, the US are affected by thier religious values, but they are not religous states. There is a big difference between them and say saudi arabia

Is that so? then how do you explain the case of a foreign jehovah witness who as not allowed to marry her jewish husband cos she wasn't a follower of judaism. their court can prevent marriages if it contravenes their views of judaism. The Hasidic parties are still strong forces in the Likud Coalition.

Yes the religious parties are strong, but its still a secular state. I dont know about the case you mentioned so i cant comment until i read the facts. it may be more than is on the surface

Good kodewrita. I think we are saying the same thing but from different perspective. I am not saying we should throw our values into the gutter and follow western cultures blindly bcoz we want to practise democracy. That would be very wrong.
My point is that we should be careful in fusing religion into the law. Now, inasmuch as we have one form of religious inclination which teaches us morality to the core, we should practise it irrespective of western idealogies.
Every human being has an element of selfishness, so, I feel the westerners are only trying to promote their own culture.

Let's say no to immorality in the name of democracy (freedom to do anything crazy) and yes to true moral values.

@kodewrita

Ur case example is not clear. could u pls elaborate on the refusal of marriage issue.

The woman concerned was a jehovah witness(non-jew) who fell in love with an isreali jew. According to isreali law at the time (it should be about 98 or thereabout) you had to make an application for marriage to your superior officer and then it would proceed to the normal jewish wedding (chair dances, passing under the arch etc). but in this case the judges ruled that the man(a military officer) was not going to be allowed to marry the woman within the jewish state.
Her crimes: she was not jewish, she was a jehovah witness and she wasn't even ready to change to judaism.

They had to leave Israel. He was victimized by his senior officers among other incidents that happened. I chose that as an example of religion-inspired laws in "secular" Israel.