The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) told us: EVERY NEWBORN CHILD IS BORN UPON FITRAH (The natural disposition and inclination towards submission to God). THEN HIS PARENTS MAKE HIM A JEW, A CHRISTIAN OR A MAGIAN..."
(Muslim)

Children are born believers in God, academic claims
Children are "born believers" in God and do not simply acquire religious beliefs through indoctrination, according to an academic.

Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.
He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.
"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."
In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

In one study, six and seven-year-olds who were asked why the first bird existed replied "to make nice music" and "because it makes the world look nice".
Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap.
Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different.
He added that this means children are more likely to believe in creationism rather than evolution, despite what they may be told by parents or teachers.
Dr Barrett claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.
"Children's normally and naturally developing minds make them prone to believe in divine creation and intelligent design. In contrast, evolution is unnatural for human minds; relatively difficult to believe."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

Interesting read but I think the title is either sensational or misleading.

If children according to Dr Barret’s research believe that creation was as a result of a supreme architect it doesn’t mean that they therefore adhere to or are in some allegiance with this creator or “God” as the title suggest. (Unless the child has no immediate religious background then their idea of God will most likely eventually conform to the deity governing the religion of their household or even religious society).
Having said that, if this is true it’s very very interesting. Perhaps then a child should be left to develop their own conviction without pressure from relatives/neighbours or preconditioning because surely if one has faith in the being they call God then could not that in which they have put their trust in reveal itself to each child at an appointed time so at the very least every religious individual should be confident in saying that their conviction was not coerced by man but inspired by god.

FALSE!

Only with indoctrination. . .by their environment.

TABULA RASA!

This christian scholar discovery has been with Muslims for millennial. I remember when my children were young. If i began my wudhu, they joined in though their mother was a christian. I didn't push them to religion and didn't even invite them to pray then. They join me in line, giggling to make salaat. When they were even younger, crawling about, they mimic me in prostration; it is so natural, almost a fetus position.

See, emofine when I said you will have to mention "God" by instinct in you at definite critical point/position/situation I was serious and sure about it. It is because its similar to drinking cold water to eliminate thirst, eating to rid hunger. You have no control, just as you have no control of the flow of blood in your body; you wish that it flows freely because it is part of your being alive. The human nature, her instinct in your case recognizes God. Your soul will go to His mentioning without you able to avoid this, since you are human. Every human has a soul which makes the body stand, alive. It is the living soul and when it leaves the body, the body is dead. The soul does not come from the parents; it is created exclusively by God, while human body is brought about by God using parents as the vessels.

What comes from God in revelation, the soul knows it, the heart acknowledges, though the denier may still denies it based on wishing to not submit to it.

Wanted to reply but when I saw that Dr. Justin Barrett is the Director of the thrive center for human development at the fuller theological seminary. I saw the bias and decided not to. . .The bottom line is that INDOCTRINATION is what makes people accept what ever concept of God and religion their parents indoctrinate them with. .The indoctrination has to be done at an early age for it to remain a part of the child's life. . .

emöfine2: Interesting read but I think the title is either sensational or misleading.

If children according to Dr Barret’s research believe that creation was as a result of a supreme architect it doesn’t mean that they therefore adhere to or are in some allegiance with this creator or “God” as the title suggest. (Unless the child has no immediate religious background then their idea of God will most likely eventually conform to the deity governing the religion of their household or even religious society).

Having said that, if this is true it’s very very interesting. Perhaps then a child should be left to develop their own conviction without pressure from relatives/neighbours or preconditioning because surely if one has faith in the being they call God then could not that in which they have put their trust in reveal itself to each child at an appointed time so at the very least every religious individual should be confident in saying that their conviction was not coerced by man but inspired by god.

Every kid would undergo some kind of preconditioning , if they do not get it from parents/relatives, they get it from society and friends. Id argue that it is better kids are indoctrinated at home than outside of it. Kids do not just develop convictions, they do so based on their environment. There is another study that claims that if kids were left on an island to develop their own civilization.. They would end up worshiping something [i would look up the reference]. The belief in a divine is within us.

The signs of God are subtle: sometimes the signs come to us and we reject it even though it has already being ingrained in us.The Quran uses the word 'kafir' to describe those who disbelieve: Kafir simply means to hide, to bury, to deny the truth already ingrained within yourself. The word normally translated as verse in the quran is called 'ayat' which actually means sign.

The quran states

We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs [ayat]; and none reject them but those who are perverse.(2:99)

And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of Allah, and among you Lives the Messenger? Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be
shown a way that is straight. (3:101)

If one is sincere, and asks God for guidance. then guidance will come. As long as the signs are not denied.

Sweetnecta: See, emofine when I said you will have to mention "God" by instinct in you at definite critical point/position/situation I was serious and sure about it. It is because its similar to drinking cold water to eliminate thirst, eating to rid hunger. You have no control, just as you have no control of the flow of blood in your body; you wish that it flows freely because it is part of your being alive. The human nature, her instinct in your case recognizes God. Your soul will go to His mentioning without you able to avoid this, since you are human. Every human has a soul which makes the body stand, alive. It is the living soul and when it leaves the body, the body is dead. The soul does not come from the parents; it is created exclusively by God, while human body is brought about by God using parents as the vessels.

Sweetnecta, let me tell you something. If a person is irreligious or does not adhere to the popular faiths such as Islam or Christianity it doesn't mean that such people are not conscious of a creator.

I actually have beliefs but you wouldn’t know that because you fail to ask as other individuals do on this forum. Only one person in my whole time in this entire forum has bothered to inquire about my beliefs and such encounter did not even take place in the religious section.
When a person declares that they are neither for Allah or Jehovah it appears many people here readily assume that such a person is atheist. When a person discusses with another individual or collective of a particular status some people lump the foreigner with the majority. When a person asks questions some people are averse to answer because some assume that such person is a trouble maker or some really care because they think that such a person is lost and looking for directions.

Let me tell you now, I belong to none of those demographics. I am not floating or flirting with different belief systems. I already have my own beliefs if you care to check. However I am very interested in learning more about other people’s beliefs and philosophies. There is nothing more I despise than willful ignorance. I don’t like to adhere to any cast roles awarded to any collective or individual by any biased or bigoted people including the media. When I want to find out more about a particular people I will investigate said people preferably by first hand. So when I read the Quaran it doesn't mean I've made a sub-conscious choice to adopt Allah as my God. When I quote the Bible it doesn't mean that I have faith in the text I reiterate. I converse with you in the language you understand to make our communication more amicable it’s just a shame that that same courtesy often or not is never extended. Just because I’m sensitive to another people’s belief or unbelief doesn't mean I revere it.

Sorry to write that whole epistle but I think it’s about time you know where I stand.

@Emofine; I have not assumed that you are anything but what you are. I dont read mind and definitely you cant read mine. I wonder why you think that I assume that you are what you are not. I simply discuss. Perchance, somebody reads it, sometimes and it makes sense, it affects his/her heart. I am a muslim and the religion says "it is an advise". Muslim[s] advises muslim[s] about Islam. My advise is even to myself. You should calm down and you dont have to prove your position to me or try to satisfy me. You have conscience and that is your better guide; hopefully our conscience will guide us to all truth.

tbaba1234:

Every kid would undergo some kind of preconditioning , if they do not get it from parents/relatives, they get it from society and friends. Id argue that it is better kids are indoctrinated at home than outside of it. Kids do not just develop convictions, they do so based on their environment. There is another study that claims that if kids were left on an island to develop their own civilization.. They would end up worshiping something [i would look up the reference]. The belief in a divine is within us.

The normal human instinct is firstly for survival and recognition of his/her environment. . .The God instinct comes based on the fact that we humans are creative and create things so it follows that we will normally assume that the earth was created. The human being in his primitive and natural form is superstitious. . .

The signs of God are subtle: sometimes the signs come to us and we reject it even though it has already being ingrained in us.The Quran uses the word 'kafir' to describe those who disbelieve: Kafir simply means to hide, to bury, to deny the truth already ingrained within yourself. The word normally translated as verse in the quran is called 'ayat' which actually means sign.

The quran states

We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs [ayat]; and none reject them but those who are perverse.(2:99)

And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of Allah, and among you Lives the Messenger? Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be
shown a way that is straight. (3:101)

If one is sincere, and asks God for guidance. then guidance will come. As long as the signs are not denied.

When then do so many people fail to see such "signs". . .And when referring to God which one of the many Gods available is the true God(s)?. . .If we allow kids to form a civilization on an island, do you think that will ever come to declare the muslim declaration of faith statement(shahada)?. . .Do the "signs" lead people to Allah?. . .

Sweetnecta: @Emofine; You should calm down and you dont have to prove your position to me or try to satisfy me. You have conscience and that is your better guide; hopefully our conscience will guide us to all truth.

My intention was neither to "satisfy" you or attack you. I never wrote that heavy response in anger more so mild frustration if anything which must have spilt but I apologise if I’ve misconstrued your intention and reply. I guess certain things have accumulated in my head and manifested itself in that novel I wrote you. Sorry you had to bear the brunt of my accumulated frustration. I appreciate your patience but sometimes I believe you (unintentionally) render my beliefs redundant or non-existent by friendly nudging me towards Islam especially when I express curiosity.
Sweetnecta, I would like for us to finally have a proper talk someday to understand each other and share our beliefs– if you’re so willing.

tbaba1234:

Every kid would undergo some kind of preconditioning , if they do not get it from parents/relatives, they get it from society and friends. Id argue that it is better kids are indoctrinated at home than outside of it. Kids do not just develop convictions, they do so based on their environment. There is another study that claims that if kids were left on an island to develop their own civilization.. They would end up worshiping something [i would look up the reference]. The belief in a divine is within us.

The signs of God are subtle: sometimes the signs come to us and we reject it even though it has already being ingrained in us.The Quran uses the word 'kafir' to describe those who disbelieve: Kafir simply means to hide, to bury, to deny the truth already ingrained within yourself. The word normally translated as verse in the quran is called 'ayat' which actually means sign.

The quran states

We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs [ayat]; and none reject them but those who are perverse.(2:99)

And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of Allah, and among you Lives the Messenger? Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be
shown a way that is straight. (3:101)

If one is sincere, and asks God for guidance. then guidance will come. As long as the signs are not denied.

Tbaba1234 what is the principle of faith?

Is our conviction inborn, inspired or dictated? Should religion be hereditary?

So largely our “faith” is determined by our environment?

If I follow a particular religion due to the orientation of my family then that may not be “faith” if not personally inspired in fact I would call it custom and a child has thus been conditioned into that particular climate. Because of this some people remain complacent or even take such belief for granted and not willing to search for themselves.

Of course parents will nurture their child in what they believe is right and will benefit their child. And if such parents are religious, it’s understandable that their children will likely be brought up or exposed in that faith.

But subjecting a child to a particular belief as opposed to being an example of that particular belief is coercion not conviction.
Faith cannot be forced, and forcing people shows a lack of faith.

mazaje:

The normal human instinct is firstly for survival and recognition of his/her environment. . .The God instinct comes based on the fact that we humans are creative and create things so it follows that we will normally assume that the earth was created. The human being in his primitive and natural form is superstitious. . .
When then do so many people fail to see such "signs". . .And when referring to God which one of the many Gods available is the true God(s)?. . .If we allow kids to form a civilization on an island, do you think that will ever come to declare the muslim declaration of faith statement(shahada)?. . .Do the "signs" lead people to Allah?. . .

While the human displays creativity in adapting to his environment, you must accept that certain traits for instance are inherited from family, sometimes a kid is born with athletic ability but never gets the environment for him to display that ability. You can learn to be good at something else.
It doesn't mean that is not imprinted in his genes. Muslims believe that belief in a creator has been given to every human but our environment decides whether that belief is developed or it dies.

I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility for kids living on an island to belief in one God.. That is basically what islam calls to. Of course, they may call God some other name. The signs of a creator are all around us, you just need to reflect:

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and
mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. (30:21)

Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet
are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord [at the Resurrection]!(30:

It is Allah that takes the souls [of men] at death; and those that die not[He takes] during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death,
He keeps back [from returning to life], but the rest He sends [to their bodies]for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.(39:42)

It is Allah Who has subjected the sea to you, that ships may sail through it by His command, that ye may seek of his Bounty, and that ye may be grateful. And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: Behold, in that are Signs indeed for those who reflect.(45:12-13)

Had We sent down this Qur'an on a mountain, verily, thou wouldst have seen it humble itself and cleave asunder for fear of Allah. Such are the similitudes
which We propound to men, that they may reflect.(59:21)

So belief in a creator requires that we reflect on our existence and all that is around us; we might not end up with the same conclusions but we will most times have a creator as the reason for our existence.

emöfine2:

Tbaba1234 what is the principle of faith?

Is our conviction inborn, inspired or dictated? Should religion be hereditary?

So largely our “faith” is determined by our environment?

If I follow a particular religion due to the orientation of my family then that may not be “faith” if not personally inspired in fact I would call it custom and a child has thus been conditioned into that particular climate. Because of this some people remain complacent or even take such belief for granted and not willing to search for themselves.

Of course parents will nurture their child in what they believe is right and will benefit their child. And if such parents are religious, it’s understandable that their children will likely be brought up or exposed in that faith.

But subjecting a child to a particular belief as opposed to being an example of that particular belief is coercion not conviction.
Faith cannot be forced, and forcing people shows a lack of faith.

Faith in my opinion has to be backed with reason. The faith the Our'an builds in men for instance is not at all blind or arbitrary, it seeks to be substantiated by the dictates of reason and intellect. The Quran comes with its falsification tests:

Do they not consider the Qur'an [with care]? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (4:82)

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura (chapter) like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers [If there are any] besides Allah, if your [doubts] are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.(2:23-24)

So for me, if you claim that this is true , there has to be evidence to back this up.

We have an inclination towards God in our natural state, but our convictions have to be made consciously and this is often times based on our biased views and prejudices.

I support your views on letting the kids understand the reasons why they do things instead of forcing them. either way the kids form their opinions based on what they are surrounded with most times.

Sometimes we need to step out of our comfort zone and really try to find truth.

tbaba1234:

Faith in my opinion has to be backed with reason. The faith the Our'an builds in men for instance is not at all blind or arbitrary, it seeks to be substantiated by the dictates of reason and intellect. The Quran comes with its falsification tests:

Do they not consider the Qur'an [with care]? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. (4:82)

Is this the falsifiable test? Many men have written books that do not contain any discrepancies inside. . . .Some religious books contain no discrepancies as well. ..Many say the Koran contains some discrepancies. . .

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura (chapter) like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers [If there are any] besides Allah, if your [doubts] are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.(2:23-24)

There are many books that teach more about morals, social order, and give a better understanding of the world around than the Koran. . . .If you want to know about man his nature and the nature of his surrounding environment a biology, physics, geography and chemistry text book will give you much more knowledge about that than the Koran. . .Men have written books that have impacted them with more knowledge about their nature and that of their surrounding environmental for example than the Koran. . .So i really do not understand why muslims keep bringing up this point of providing a book that is better than the Koran. . .The Grey's anatomy text book better explains the basic nature of man than the Koran for example. . .Men have written better books than the Koran in many different aspects. . .Even when it comes to morals, political and social systems, men have written better books than the Koran. . .

So for me, if you claim that this is true , there has to be evidence to back this up.

We have an inclination towards God in our natural state, but our convictions have to be made consciously and this is often times based on our biased views and prejudices.

I support your views on letting the kids understand the reasons why they do things instead of forcing them. either way the kids form their opinions based on what they are surrounded with most times.

Sometimes we need to step out of our comfort zone and really try to find truth.

How do you find the truth when you are indoctrinated to believe that there is no God but Allah(meaning all other Gods are false) and Mohammed is is last messenger?. . .You can't go about finding the truth once you have been indoctrinated with such a line, you can only go out to look for confirmation or things that will agree with what you have been indoctrinated with. . .

emöfine2:

Sweetnecta, let me tell you something. If a person is irreligious or does not adhere to the popular faiths such as Islam or Christianity it doesn't mean that such people are not conscious of a creator.

I actually have beliefs but you wouldn’t know that because you fail to ask as other individuals do on this forum. Only one person in my whole time in this entire forum has bothered to inquire about my beliefs and such encounter did not even take place in the religious section.
When a person declares that they are neither for Allah or Jehovah it appears many people here readily assume that such a person is atheist. When a person discusses with another individual or collective of a particular status some people lump the foreigner with the majority. When a person asks questions some people are averse to answer because some assume that such person is a trouble maker or some really care because they think that such a person is lost and looking for directions.

Let me tell you now, I belong to none of those demographics. I am not floating or flirting with different belief systems. I already have my own beliefs if you care to check. However I am very interested in learning more about other people’s beliefs and philosophies. There is nothing more I despise than willful ignorance. I don’t like to adhere to any cast roles awarded to any collective or individual by any biased or bigoted people including the media. When I want to find out more about a particular people I will investigate said people preferably by first hand. So when I read the Quaran it doesn't mean I've made a sub-conscious choice to adopt Allah as my God. When I quote the Bible it doesn't mean that I have faith in the text I reiterate. I converse with you in the language you understand to make our communication more amicable it’s just a shame that that same courtesy often or not is never extended. Just because I’m sensitive to another people’s belief or unbelief doesn't mean I revere it.

Sorry to write that whole epistle but I think it’s about time you know where I stand.

Strange that non of the feral childern express any such beliefs as the research shows. In fact the ones raised by dogs and wolves in the wild seemed to think they were dogs or wolves. . .Such cases have been very well documented. . .

This Dr. Barret or whatever he is called just told a big lie. How did he come to that conclussion? Did he conduct any experiment over time? My problem with most religious people is the speed with which they jump at any 'scientific' report, provided it supports their belief, which subjecting such postulation to critical reasoning. If children were born with faith how come they still ask questions about God? Every human being is born agnostic. S/he has no idea of anything and as s/he grows up indoctrination makes him/her believe whatever it is he finally cmes to believe. Barret claimed if children were left in the desert to raise themselves they will still worship God. Lie! The Piraha people do not even believe in any deity, they dont even care if or not one exists. They live their lives one day at a time and they can be said to be one of the happiest people on earth.
Every child is born without the knowledge of any deity until his parents tell him 'Jesus is the way, truth and life.....' or 'there is only one God and Mohammed is the messenger of that God'

mazaje:

Is this the falsifiable test? Many men have written books that do not contain any discrepancies inside. . . .Some religious books contain no discrepancies as well. ..Many say the Koran contains some discrepancies. . .

Given the circumstances of the quranic revelation, It was revealed over a period of 23 years in different circumstances, in times of peace and conflict, and it remains remarkably consistent.

Write a book for 23 years and see how many times your opinions change. The quran underwent no editing throughout the period, once the revelation comes, it is memorised or written by those who can write. and it is still considered the 'most eminent written manifestation' of the arabic language'.

“Notwithstanding the literary excellence of some of the long pre-Islamic poems...the Qur'an is definitely on a level of its own as the most eminent written manifestation of the Arabic language.” [/i]Martin R. Zammit. A Comparative Lexical Study of Qur'anic Arabic. Brill. 2002, page 37.

I have read the bible and parts of the vedas and and there are discrepancies acknowledged even by their scholars.

Any discrepancy claimed is easily refuted. I think, an impartial sincere look at the Quran by anyone will reveal that there are none.

mazaje:
There are many books that teach more about morals, social order, and give a better understanding of the world around than the Koran. . . .If you want to know about man his nature and the nature of his surrounding environment a biology, physics, geography and chemistry text book will give you much more knowledge about that than the Koran. . .Men have written books that have impacted them with more knowledge about their nature and that of their surrounding environmental for example than the Koran. . .So i really do not understand why muslims keep bringing up this point of providing a book that is better than the Koran. . .The Grey's anatomy text book better explains the basic nature of man than the Koran for example. . .Men have written better books than the Koran in many different aspects. . .Even when it comes to morals, political and social systems, men have written better books than the Koran. . .

This challenge is not a subjective challenge, It is an objective one. The Quran is only the Quran in the arabic language... Translations do not capture the eloquence an of the book. The word choice, the sentence construction are not captured in translations. The challenge is made up of a number of points:

1. Replicate the Qur’ans literary form
2. Match the unique linguistic genre of the Qur’an
3. Select and arrange words like that of the Qur’an.
4. Select and arrange particles like that of the Qur’an.
5. Match the Qur’ans phonetic superiority.
6. Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices
7. Match the level of informativity
8. Equal the Qur’ans conciseness and flexibility

It is agreed by most scholars muslim and non-muslim that the literary form of the Quran does not fit into the genres of Arabic literature. It is beyond the bounds of the arabic literature patterns.For over a thousand years no one has met this challenge.

Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot, British Orientalist and translator, states:
[i]“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.
( F. Arbuthnot, The Construction of the Bible and the Koran, London, 1885, p 5.)

Devin J. Stewart states, “Both in the Qur’an and in later saj’(literary form with rhythm and rhyme) we see that shorter saj’ is much more common, but the range in the Qur’an is greater.” (Devin J. Stewart, Saj’ in the Qur’an: Prosody and Structure, p.102.)

Taha Husayn :
“But you know that the Qur’an is not prose and that it is not verse either. It is rather Qur’an, and it cannot be called by any other name but this. It is not verse, and that is clear; for it does not bind itself to the bonds of verse. And it is not prose, for it is bound by bonds peculiar to itself, not found elsewhere; some of the binds are related to the endings of its verses, and some to that musical sound which is all its own.

mazaje:
How do you find the truth when you are indoctrinated to believe that there is no God but Allah(meaning all other Gods are false) and Mohammed is is last messenger?. . .You can't go about finding the truth once you have been indoctrinated with such a line, you can only go out to look for confirmation or things that will agree with what you have been indoctrinated with. . .

I have always had an open mind; that is why i have studied the facts of most major religions. Islam is the only one that provides logical answers to all the major life questions.

tbaba1234: The Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) told us: EVERY NEWBORN CHILD IS BORN UPON FITRAH (The natural disposition and inclination towards submission to God). THEN HIS PARENTS MAKE HIM A JEW, A CHRISTIAN OR A MAGIAN..."
(Muslim)

This is simply false. How do you wish to demonstrate that any child born wishes to worship the Muslim God? Then how about the situations in which Muslims leave Islam? What went wrong?

tbaba1234:
Children are born believers in God, academic claims
Children are "born believers" in God and do not simply acquire religious beliefs through indoctrination, according to an academic.

Dr Justin Barrett, a senior researcher at the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, claims that young people have a predisposition to believe in a supreme being because they assume that everything in the world was created with a purpose.
He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God.
"The preponderance of scientific evidence for the past 10 years or so has shown that a lot more seems to be built into the natural development of children's minds than we once thought, including a predisposition to see the natural world as designed and purposeful and that some kind of intelligent being is behind that purpose," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
"If we threw a handful on an island and they raised themselves I think they would believe in God."
In a lecture to be given at the University of Cambridge's Faraday Institute on Tuesday, Dr Barrett will cite psychological experiments carried out on children that he says show they instinctively believe that almost everything has been designed with a specific purpose.

In one study, six and seven-year-olds who were asked why the first bird existed replied "to make nice music" and "because it makes the world look nice".
Another experiment on 12-month-old babies suggested that they were surprised by a film in which a rolling ball apparently created a neat stack of blocks from a disordered heap.
Dr Barrett said there is evidence that even by the age of four, children understand that although some objects are made by humans, the natural world is different.
He added that this means children are more likely to believe in creationism rather than evolution, despite what they may be told by parents or teachers.
Dr Barrett claimed anthropologists have found that in some cultures children believe in God even when religious teachings are withheld from them.
"Children's normally and naturally developing minds make them prone to believe in divine creation and intelligent design. In contrast, evolution is unnatural for human minds; relatively difficult to believe."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/3512686/Children-are-born-believers-in-God-academic-claims.html

This article is both misunderstood and doesn't help you point.
The article makes a leap from saying that children readily attribute phenomena and occurrences to agency, to claiming that children believe in God. Note that what a God is, isn't actually well described.

Also, a child being more likely to believe wrong information such as the moon is being held up or that the sun goes around the earth doesn't somehow make these ideas more valid. So, a child being more likely to believe in creationism rather than evolution prior to understanding what science is and how it works simply shows us how important it is to properly educate children.

tbaba1234:

Given the circumstances of the quranic revelation, It was revealed over a period of 23 years in different circumstances, in times of peace and conflict, and it remains remarkably consistent.

Write a book for 23 years and see how many times your opinions change. The quran underwent no editing throughout the period, once the revelation comes, it is memorised or written by those who can write. and it is still considered the 'most eminent written manifestation' of the arabic language'.“Notwithstanding the literary excellence of some of the long pre-Islamic poems...the Qur'an is definitely on a level of its own as the most eminent written manifestation of the Arabic language.” [/i]Martin R. Zammit. A Comparative Lexical Study of Qur'anic Arabic. Brill. 2002, page 37.

I have read the bible and parts of the vedas and and there are discrepancies acknowledged even by their scholars.

Any discrepancy claimed is easily refuted. I think, an impartial sincere look at the Quran by anyone will reveal that there are none.

Still doesn't make it special, people have conducted research and written books about their research that spanned a period of about 30 years with consistency and no contradictions. The Koran as we know it today did not exist during the time of Mohammed so the issue about it not being edited is tenuous. . .The Koran does contain some contradiction. . . .Here is one. . .

What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

"Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
"But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
"He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).


In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. . . Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since "nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay." Both cannot be true. . . . .

This challenge is not a subjective challenge, It is an objective one. The Quran is only the Quran in the arabic language... Translations do not capture the eloquence an of the book. The word choice, the sentence construction are not captured in translations. The challenge is made up of a number of points:

1. Replicate the Qur’ans literary form
2. Match the unique linguistic genre of the Qur’an
3. Select and arrange words like that of the Qur’an.
4. Select and arrange particles like that of the Qur’an.
5. Match the Qur’ans phonetic superiority.
6. Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices
7. Match the level of informativity
8. Equal the Qur’ans conciseness and flexibility

It is agreed by most scholars muslim and non-muslim that the literary form of the Quran does not fit into the genres of Arabic literature. It is beyond the bounds of the arabic literature patterns.For over a thousand years no one has met this challenge.

Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot, British Orientalist and translator, states:
[i]“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.
( F. Arbuthnot, The Construction of the Bible and the Koran, London, 1885, p 5.)

Devin J. Stewart states, “Both in the Qur’an and in later saj’(literary form with rhythm and rhyme) we see that shorter saj’ is much more common, but the range in the Qur’an is greater.” (Devin J. Stewart, Saj’ in the Qur’an: Prosody and Structure, p.102.)

Taha Husayn :
“But you know that the Qur’an is not prose and that it is not verse either. It is rather Qur’an, and it cannot be called by any other name but this. It is not verse, and that is clear; for it does not bind itself to the bonds of verse. And it is not prose, for it is bound by bonds peculiar to itself, not found elsewhere; some of the binds are related to the endings of its verses, and some to that musical sound which is all its own.

Some Koranic scholars have said other wise. . .few researchers on the opinions on the Koran:

(a) [The Qur'an] is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions. - Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, (Cambridge, 1977) p. 18

(b) the Qur'an is not always presented as the speech of God. Numerous critics of the Qur'an have pointed to instances where God is mentioned in the third person. Regarding these critics, Benjamin Walker writes:
"Some asked what need there was for God to take oaths like any mortal being, as when he swears by the fig and olive, and by Mount Sinai (95:1); by the declining day (103:1); and by the stars, the night and the dawn (81:15-1. Above all, they asked why the Almighty had to swear on himself
Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard E. Friedman

(c) From the literary point of view, the Koran has little merit. Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn. It is humiliating to the human intellect to think that this mediocre literature has been the subject of innumerable commentaries, and that millions of men are still wasting time absorbing it - Reinach, Salomon, Orpheus: A History of Religion, (New York, 1932), p. 176, as cited in both Warraq, Quest for the Historical Muhammad, p. 9, and Katz, Bernard, The Ways of an Atheist, (Prometheus, 1999), p. 145

(d)My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on -Gerd-R. Puin

I have always had an open mind; that is why i have studied the facts of most major religions. Islam is the only one that provides logical answers to all the major life questions.

Fair enough but that is subjective. . . .

dekung: This Dr. Barret or whatever he is called just told a big lie. How did he come to that conclussion? Did he conduct any experiment over time? My problem with most religious people is the speed with which they jump at any 'scientific' report, provided it supports their belief, which subjecting such postulation to critical reasoning. If children were born with faith how come they still ask questions about God? Every human being is born agnostic. S/he has no idea of anything and as s/he grows up indoctrination makes him/her believe whatever it is he finally cmes to believe. Barret claimed if children were left in the desert to raise themselves they will still worship God. Lie! The Piraha people do not even believe in any deity, they dont even care if or not one exists. They live their lives one day at a time and they can be said to be one of the happiest people on earth.
Every child is born without the knowledge of any deity until his parents tell him 'Jesus is the way, truth and life.....' or 'there is only one God and Mohammed is the messenger of that God'

Dr. Justin Barrett is the Director of the thrive center for human development at the fuller theological seminary. So he must be bias in favor of religion. . . .I think it has already been established pretty well that the human mind has an instinctive "agency bias". We tend to see purpose and agency in things that don't actually have them. Most of the results in this study are an outgrowth of this already known, and already explained, effect. With some bias added in to make it look like support for religion, when it is actually the opposite. It gives a naturalistic explanation of where religion comes from.

mazaje:
Still doesn't make it special, people have conducted research and written books about their research that spanned a period of about 30 years with consistency and no contradictions. The Koran as we know it today did not exist during the time of Mohammed so the issue about it not being edited is tenuous. . .The Koran does contain some contradiction. . . .Here is one. . .

What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

"Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
"But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
"He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).


In Surah 19:67, it states that man was created out of nothing. In 15:26, man is created from clay. . . Since clay is something, we have a contradiction since "nothing" excludes the possibility of "clay." Both cannot be true. . . . .

Like i said before, so called contradictions are some people's unwillingness to use their heads: This is almost embarrassing from an atheist to bring this up: Id help you:

Alaqa does not only mean clot of blood, it means that which clings/suspends: You can check the lane's classical arabic dictionary,

if you think im lying, check lanes lexicon (written in the 1800s) check the http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000421.pdf

There are 4 meanings:
a. Hanging/suspended
b. Suckling blood
c. Leech/worm like substance
d. Blood-clot

Chapter 23 puts everything together

We created man from an essence of clay-
then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place.(s-perm)
Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form (baby in womb)
and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators. (development of baby) (chapter 23:14)

Notice the use of the word 'then': It shows a progression:

This shows that is a progression not a contradiction: he was made from an essence of clay, after that man reproduce from the s-emen and from the reproductory process

Now lets break it down

We created man from an essence (sulaalah) of (min) clay (tin)

The word sulaalah means an extract, something drawn out or the most subtle, purest and essential constituent
(John Penrice. A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran. Dover Publications. 2004, page 70.)
(Edward William Lane. An Arabic-English Lexicon. Librairie Du Liban. 1968. Vol. 4, page 1397.) http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000121.pdf

Even the classical scholars understood this: al-Qurtubi; the 9th Century Persian historian and scholar, al-Tabari;and the 12th century Iraqi physician and historian al-Baghdadi.Significantly, other exegetes suggest these words also refer to the essential elements of the human body, which consist of various chemical components found in clay.


Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Calcium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sulfur, Chlorine, Sodium, Magnesium and Silicon are all essential in the human makeup: So our essence is of clay:

Shafi Usmani (Jurist) writes: The words sulaalah means ‘extract’ and tin means ‘wet earth’ or ‘clay’ and the verse means that man was created from some special elements extracted from earth.(Shafi Usmani. Mariful Qur’an. Vol. 6, page 307.)

Hamza Tzortis states:

"The key word allowing for the above interpretation is sulaalah (extract, something drawn out etc.). This clearly indicates that it is not clay from which the human is created but an extract of clay, which alludes to the necessary chemical components required for human life. If this contention refers to the creation of Adam, then it can be addressed by referring to the Islamic theological understanding of miracles. The creation of Adam was not a natural event, rather it was a supernatural event that cannot be explained naturalistically." (Embryology in the Quran)

So man's made up of an essence of clay-

Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form
a. Hanging/suspended- baby clings to mothers womb

The Embryo is connected to the cytotrophoblast by a connecting stalk of extra-embryonic mesoderm (primitive connective tissue). The stalk is the forerunner of the umbilical cord. (Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma. Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 2.)

Caviation of the extra-embryonic mesoderm does not occur at the connecting stalk which remains intact to suspend the developing embryo in the extra-embryonic coelom (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 27.)

b. Suckling blood - baby depends on mother for blood

Due to the rapid growth of the embryo during the second week, there is a need for a more efficient means of nutritional and gaseous exchange. This is achieved when the embryonic blood vessels of the chorion come into contact with the maternal blood vessels of the decidua. (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 10.)

c. Leech/worm like substance- Baby gets food off mum and at some stage looks like a leech/worm.

Another membrane becomes the yolk sac, which provides nourishment for the early embryo. By 24 days, a connecting stalk appears in the middle of the now worm-like body (Dale Layman. Anatomy Demystified.2004, page 366.)


d. Blood-clot-

There is a lack of blood circulation until the third week: a primary cardio-vascular system is developed:

The heart and great vessels form from mesenchymal cells in the heart primordium-cardiogenic area. Paired, endothelium-lined channels-endocardial heart tubes-develop during the third week and fuse to form a primordial heart tube. The tubular heart joins with blood vessels in the embryo, connecting stalk, chorion, and umbilical vesicle [yolk sac] to form a primordial cardiovascular system. By the end of the third week, the blood is circulating, and the heart begins to beat on day 21 or 22. (Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 7th Edition. Saunders. 2008, page 48.)

So Man is made of an essense of clay and develops through the reproductive system (sperm drop and embryo development):


Now that is cleared: Let's move to the other "contradictions"

19:67. But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?

At some point in the history of earth, humans did not exist:
At some point the whole universe did not exist; that point is nothing. when nothing existed.

Ibn kathir says of this verse : Allah uses the beginning of creation as a proof for its repetition. This means that He, the Exalted, created the human being while he was nothing. So can he not repeat this creation after the human had actually become something Similalry Allah says;

And He it is Who originates the creation, then He will repeat it; and this is easier for Him. (30:27)

It talks of a time before creation of man when he was essentially non-existent:

Adam came from dust: The creation of adam was a miracle and does not tie to the human development process or the fact that at some point we were nothing; nonexistent....

Every "contradiction" like i said can be easily dismantled.

Please be open minded...

mazaje:
Some Koranic scholars have said other wise. . .few researchers on the opinions on the Koran:

(a) [The Qur'an] is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language and content, perfunctory in its linking of disparate materials, and given to the repetition of whole passages in variant versions. On this basis it can plausibly be argued that the book is the product of belated and imperfect editing of materials from a plurality of traditions. - Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World, (Cambridge, 1977) p. 18

(b) the Qur'an is not always presented as the speech of God. Numerous critics of the Qur'an have pointed to instances where God is mentioned in the third person. Regarding these critics, Benjamin Walker writes:
"Some asked what need there was for God to take oaths like any mortal being, as when he swears by the fig and olive, and by Mount Sinai (95:1); by the declining day (103:1); and by the stars, the night and the dawn (81:15-1. Above all, they asked why the Almighty had to swear on himself
Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard E. Friedman

(c) From the literary point of view, the Koran has little merit. Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn. It is humiliating to the human intellect to think that this mediocre literature has been the subject of innumerable commentaries, and that millions of men are still wasting time absorbing it - Reinach, Salomon, Orpheus: A History of Religion, (New York, 1932), p. 176, as cited in both Warraq, Quest for the Historical Muhammad, p. 9, and Katz, Bernard, The Ways of an Atheist, (Prometheus, 1999), p. 145

(d)My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on -Gerd-R. Puin

It is a shame i have to respond to this, even an arab christian or jew will confirm what i spoke of, about the literary genius of the Quran.

a. The controversial thesis of Hagarism is not widely accepted. The authors are even called conjectoral:: And nothing has been said to contradict the literary excellence

Josef Van Ess argued that "a refutation is perhaps unnecessary since the authors make no effort to prove it (the hypothesis of the book) in detail. , Where they are only giving a new interpretation of well-known facts, this is not decisive. But where the accepted facts are consciously put upside down, their approach is disastrous."

R. B. Searjeant informs us that "Hagarism … is not only bitterly anti-Islamic in tone, but anti-Arabian. Its superficial fancies are so ridiculous that at first one wonders if it is just a ‘leg pull’, pure ’spoof’."

David Waines, Professor of Islamic Studies Lancaster University states: "The Crone-Cook theory has been almost universally rejected. The evidence offered by the authors is far too tentative and conjectural (and possibly contradictory) to conclude that Arab-Jewish were as intimate as they would wish them to have been."

b.This does not affect the literary excellence of the book:

The creator of the everything, can swear using any of his creations

The Quran was not revealed in the form of a document or a book, but rather it was revealed by inspiration to Prophet Mohamed (saws) in the form of discourses over a period of 23 years; which the Noble Prophet (saws) recited and declared verbatim to his listerners.
Thus, in the course of revelation, at times it seems that Allah Subhanah is addressing mankind in the first person, most times it seems the Lord is addressing Prophet Mohamed (saws) as in a conversation or the second person, and at times it seems that the Merciful Lord is speaking in the third person, narrating the Truth of what transpired in the past or what will transpire in the future! All three modes of conversation have been utilized by the All-Knowing, All Wise Lord for his chosen last and final Message, which He revealed as the Book of Guidance to all mankind until the end of time.

Examples of when the Lord All-Mighty address mankind in the third person:

21. Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 255: Allah! There is no Allah but He the living the Self-subsisting Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to his creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High the Supreme (in glory).
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 59 Surah Hashr verses 22-24:
22 Allah is He than whom there is no other god, Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He Most Gracious Most Merciful.
23 Allah is He than whom there is no other god, The Sovereign, The Holy One, The Source of Peace (and Perfection), The Guardian of Faith, The Preserver of Safety, The Exalted in Might, The Irresistible, The Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
24 He is Allah, The Creator, The Evolver, The Bestower of Forms (or colors). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: Whatever is in the heavens and on earth doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, The Wise.

This is part of the remarkable eloquence of the book.

c. Reinach Salomon did not read an Arabic Quran, He is not a literature expert, He did not like islam. He is a historian.

d. This is not a literary statement but it is worthy of a proper response.

The Yemeni government hired Gerd Puin, one of the world's leading authorities on Qur'anic historical orthography, or the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts, to study the oldest manuscript of the Quran.

After the publication of the Atlantic Monthly by lester.

Dr. Puin himself has in fact denied all the findings that Lester ascribes to him, with the exception of occasional differences in the spelling of some words. Here is a part of Puin's letter - which he wrote to al-QaQi Isma'il al-Akwa' shortly after Lester's article - with its translation. (i could not paste the arabic here)

The important thing, thank God, is that these YemeniQur' anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words arc spelled. This phenomenon is well-known,even in the Qur'an published in Cairo in which is written:

Ibrhim next to Ibrhm
Quran next to Qrn
Simahum next to Simhum

In the oldest Yemeni Qur'anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel algis rather common. (For the Arabic text of his complete letter,see the Yemeni newspaper, ath- Thauna, issue 24.11.1419 A.H./ 11.3.1999.)


This deflates the entire controversy, dusting away the webs of intrigue that were spun around Puin's discoveries and making them a topic unworthy
of further speculation."

As regard to the Sana'a Manuscripts, there is nothing "shocking" about its discovery. At most, it is claimed that there is a fragment where the end of sura 26 is followed by 37. But this amounts to nothing, since it is permissable to place suras in any order in a partial mushaf. So this is hardly "news" or a "shocking" discovery.

@ OP. Complete rubbish claim.

tbaba1234:

Like i said before, so called contradictions are some people's unwillingness to use their heads: This is almost embarrassing from an atheist to bring this up: Id help you:

Alaqa does not only mean clot of blood, it means that which clings/suspends: You can check the lane's classical arabic dictionary,

if you think im lying, check lanes lexicon (written in the 1800s) check the http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000421.pdf

There are 4 meanings:
a. Hanging/suspended
b. Suckling blood
c. Leech/worm like substance
d. Blood-clot

Chapter 23 puts everything together

We created man from an essence of clay-
then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place.(s-perm)
Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form (baby in womb)
and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators. (development of baby) (chapter 23:14)

Notice the use of the word 'then': It shows a progression:

This shows that is a progression not a contradiction: he was made from an essence of clay, after that man reproduce from the s-emen and from the reproductory process

Now lets break it down

We created man from an essence (sulaalah) of (min) clay (tin)

The word sulaalah means an extract, something drawn out or the most subtle, purest and essential constituent
(John Penrice. A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran. Dover Publications. 2004, page 70.)
(Edward William Lane. An Arabic-English Lexicon. Librairie Du Liban. 1968. Vol. 4, page 1397.) http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000121.pdf

Even the classical scholars understood this: al-Qurtubi; the 9th Century Persian historian and scholar, al-Tabari;and the 12th century Iraqi physician and historian al-Baghdadi.Significantly, other exegetes suggest these words also refer to the essential elements of the human body, which consist of various chemical components found in clay.

You took one rendering of the statement and gave a very long commentary on it. . .There are many other verses that say other wise, example. . .

Could it be from earth?

11:61 It is He Who hath produced you from the earth

32:7 He began the creation of man from clay

Or water?

25:54 It is He Who has created man from water

Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Calcium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sulfur, Chlorine, Sodium, Magnesium and Silicon are all essential in the human makeup: So our essence is of clay:

All the elements you mentioned are also found in rocks and the sun, does that mean we are made from rocks or the sun?. . .These elements are abundant all over the world and they make up all living matter including all animals and plants. . .

Shafi Usmani (Jurist) writes: The words sulaalah means ‘extract’ and tin means ‘wet earth’ or ‘clay’ and the verse means that man was created from some special elements extracted from earth.(Shafi Usmani. Mariful Qur’an. Vol. 6, page 307.)

Hamza Tzortis states:

"The key word allowing for the above interpretation is sulaalah (extract, something drawn out etc.). This clearly indicates that it is not clay from which the human is created but an extract of clay, which alludes to the necessary chemical components required for human life. If this contention refers to the creation of Adam, then it can be addressed by referring to the Islamic theological understanding of miracles. The creation of Adam was not a natural event, rather it was a supernatural event that cannot be explained naturalistically." (Embryology in the Quran)

Funny islamic apologetics. . .Wet earth is not the same as clay, extract is not the same as essential constituent of something, so which is it extract or essentail constituient?Or water?

25:54 It is He Who has created man from water. . .The two words are different and the apologist you quoted can not have it both ways, does the Koran say man was created from the extract of clay or essential constituents of clay essential constituent of clay ?

So man's made up of an essence of clay-

Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form
a. Hanging/suspended- baby clings to mothers womb

The Embryo is connected to the cytotrophoblast by a connecting stalk of extra-embryonic mesoderm (primitive connective tissue). The stalk is the forerunner of the umbilical cord. (Barry Mitchell and Ram Sharma. Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 2.)

Caviation of the extra-embryonic mesoderm does not occur at the connecting stalk which remains intact to suspend the developing embryo in the extra-embryonic coelom (The Fundamentals of Human Embryology. 2nd Edition. Wits University Press. 2010, page 27.)

b. Suckling blood - baby depends on mother for blood

Due to the rapid growth of the embryo during the second week, there is a need for a more efficient means of nutritional and gaseous exchange. This is achieved when the embryonic blood vessels of the chorion come into contact with the maternal blood vessels of the decidua. (Embryology: An Illustrated Colour Text. 2nd Edition. Churchill Livingstone. 2009, page 10.)

c. Leech/worm like substance- Baby gets food off mum and at some stage looks like a leech/worm.

Another membrane becomes the yolk sac, which provides nourishment for the early embryo. By 24 days, a connecting stalk appears in the middle of the now worm-like body (Dale Layman. Anatomy Demystified.2004, page 366.)


d. Blood-clot-

There is a lack of blood circulation until the third week: a primary cardio-vascular system is developed:

The heart and great vessels form from mesenchymal cells in the heart primordium-cardiogenic area. Paired, endothelium-lined channels-endocardial heart tubes-develop during the third week and fuse to form a primordial heart tube. The tubular heart joins with blood vessels in the embryo, connecting stalk, chorion, and umbilical vesicle [yolk sac] to form a primordial cardiovascular system. By the end of the third week, the blood is circulating, and the heart begins to beat on day 21 or 22. (Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 7th Edition. Saunders. 2008, page 48.)

So Man is made of an essense of clay and develops through the reproductive system (sperm drop and embryo development):

From the answers in Islam website which I happen to agree with it says "This is hardly a scientific description of embryonic development. It ignores to mention the female egg (the second and equally important half) and the process of fertilization when egg and sperm unite to form one new cell.

It mentions the obvious [the sperm], the visible, that which all mankind knew for a long time that it is necessary to "make" a baby. The Qur'an does NOT mention the invisible, that which we know only through modern medicine. Had God really wanted to reveal something nobody could know at that time, in order to prove the divine origin of his revelation, he would have talked e.g. about the "equal contribution of the female through the ovum to form the new person and how the two come together and form one being". . . .

Now that is cleared: Let's move to the other "contradictions"

19:67. But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?

At some point in the history of earth, humans did not exist:
At some point the whole universe did not exist; that point is nothing. when nothing existed.

Ibn kathir says of this verse : Allah uses the beginning of creation as a proof for its repetition. This means that He, the Exalted, created the human being while he was nothing. So can he not repeat this creation after the human had actually become something Similalry Allah says;

And He it is Who originates the creation, then He will repeat it; and this is easier for Him. (30:27)

It talks of a time before creation of man when he was essentially non-existent:

Adam came from dust: The creation of adam was a miracle and does not tie to the human development process or the fact that at some point we were nothing; nonexistent....

Every "contradiction" like i said can be easily dismantled.

Please be open minded...

Fair enough, sound explanation. . . .

It is a shame i have to respond to this, even an arab christian or jew will confirm what i spoke of, about the literary genius of the Quran.

a. The controversial thesis of Hagarism is not widely accepted. The authors are even called conjectoral:: And nothing has been said to contradict the literary excellence

Josef Van Ess argued that "a refutation is perhaps unnecessary since the authors make no effort to prove it (the hypothesis of the book) in detail. , Where they are only giving a new interpretation of well-known facts, this is not decisive. But where the accepted facts are consciously put upside down, their approach is disastrous."

R. B. Searjeant informs us that "Hagarism … is not only bitterly anti-Islamic in tone, but anti-Arabian. Its superficial fancies are so ridiculous that at first one wonders if it is just a ‘leg pull’, pure ’spoof’."

David Waines, Professor of Islamic Studies Lancaster University states: "The Crone-Cook theory has been almost universally rejected. The evidence offered by the authors is far too tentative and conjectural (and possibly contradictory) to conclude that Arab-Jewish were as intimate as they would wish them to have been."

b.This does not affect the literary excellence of the book:

The creator of the everything, can swear using any of his creations

The Quran was not revealed in the form of a document or a book, but rather it was revealed by inspiration to Prophet Mohamed (saws) in the form of discourses over a period of 23 years; which the Noble Prophet (saws) recited and declared verbatim to his listerners.
Thus, in the course of revelation, at times it seems that Allah Subhanah is addressing mankind in the first person, most times it seems the Lord is addressing Prophet Mohamed (saws) as in a conversation or the second person, and at times it seems that the Merciful Lord is speaking in the third person, narrating the Truth of what transpired in the past or what will transpire in the future! All three modes of conversation have been utilized by the All-Knowing, All Wise Lord for his chosen last and final Message, which He revealed as the Book of Guidance to all mankind until the end of time.

Examples of when the Lord All-Mighty address mankind in the third person:

21. Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 255: Allah! There is no Allah but He the living the Self-subsisting Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to his creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High the Supreme (in glory).
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 59 Surah Hashr verses 22-24:
22 Allah is He than whom there is no other god, Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He Most Gracious Most Merciful.
23 Allah is He than whom there is no other god, The Sovereign, The Holy One, The Source of Peace (and Perfection), The Guardian of Faith, The Preserver of Safety, The Exalted in Might, The Irresistible, The Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
24 He is Allah, The Creator, The Evolver, The Bestower of Forms (or colors). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: Whatever is in the heavens and on earth doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, The Wise.

This is part of the remarkable eloquence of the book.

c. Reinach Salomon did not read an Arabic Quran, He is not a literature expert, He did not like islam. He is a historian.

d. This is not a literary statement but it is worthy of a proper response.

The Yemeni government hired Gerd Puin, one of the world's leading authorities on Qur'anic historical orthography, or the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts, to study the oldest manuscript of the Quran.

After the publication of the Atlantic Monthly by lester.

Dr. Puin himself has in fact denied all the findings that Lester ascribes to him, with the exception of occasional differences in the spelling of some words. Here is a part of Puin's letter - which he wrote to al-QaQi Isma'il al-Akwa' shortly after Lester's article - with its translation. (i could not paste the arabic here)

The important thing, thank God, is that these YemeniQur' anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur'an itself, but are rather differences in the way words arc spelled. This phenomenon is well-known,even in the Qur'an published in Cairo in which is written:

Ibrhim next to Ibrhm
Quran next to Qrn
Simahum next to Simhum

In the oldest Yemeni Qur'anic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel algis rather common. (For the Arabic text of his complete letter,see the Yemeni newspaper, ath- Thauna, issue 24.11.1419 A.H./ 11.3.1999.)


This deflates the entire controversy, dusting away the webs of intrigue that were spun around Puin's discoveries and making them a topic unworthy
of further speculation."

As regard to the Sana'a Manuscripts, there is nothing "shocking" about its discovery. At most, it is claimed that there is a fragment where the end of sura 26 is followed by 37. But this amounts to nothing, since it is permissable to place suras in any order in a partial mushaf. So this is hardly "news" or a "shocking" discovery.

I don't know much about classical arabic. . .Nice refutations any way, but you just dismissed some of them on the grounds that they are anti islam or anti arab. . . That is the case of attacking the messenger instead of the message. . .But nice refutation over all I must say. . .My point is that, their are many books that have enlightened man, giving man more knowledge and understanding of himself and his environment in all ramifications of his life than the Koran. . .If you are saying that the Koran is better than all arabic literature before it then I won't say much about it or argue, if the challenge of presenting a better book was only meant for the ancient arabs then i won't argue about it as well, but if the challenge is for the whole of humanity to produce a better book than the Koran, then I will say that there are many books that are much better than the Koran. . .

mazaje:

You took one rendering of the statement and gave a very long commentary on it. . .There are many other verses that say other wise, example. . .

Could it be from earth?

11:61 It is He Who hath produced you from the earth

32:7 He began the creation of man from clay

Or water?

25:54 It is He Who has created man from water

I see no contradiction here: Man is made from clay and water.

The basic unit of life is water and Man is made from an essence of clay. 70% of the human body is water. where is the contradiction?

mazaje:


All the elements you mentioned are also found in rocks and the sun, does that mean we are made from rocks or the sun?. . .These elements are abundant all over the world and they make up all living matter including all animals and plants. . .

Funny islamic apologetics. . .Wet earth is not the same as clay, extract is not the same as essential constituent of something, so which is it extract or essentail constituient?Or water?

25:54 It is He Who has created man from water. . .The two words are different and the apologist you quoted can not have it both ways, does the Koran say man was created from the extract of clay or essential constituents of clay essential constituent of clay ?

What is an extract? something drawn out.... you can't deny that the elements that make up the human body are also present in clay- the point is not whether you can find them elsewhere.

We are also made of water.

These statements are not mutually exclusive:

for instance, I make food from a host of ingredients: If i mention one first and then mention another. It does not make my first statement is wrong or contradictory.

mazaje:
From the answers in Islam website which I happen to agree with it says "This is hardly a scientific description of embryonic development. It ignores to mention the female egg (the second and equally important half) and the process of fertilization when egg and sperm unite to form one new cell.

It mentions the obvious [the sperm], the visible, that which all mankind knew for a long time that it is necessary to "make" a baby. The Qur'an does NOT mention the invisible, that which we know only through modern medicine. Had God really wanted to reveal something nobody could know at that time, in order to prove the divine origin of his revelation, he would have talked e.g. about the "equal contribution of the female through the ovum to form the new person and how the two come together and form one being". . . .

Untrue:

...then We placed him as a drop of fluid (nuftah) in a safe place.

The word used for drop of fluid is 'nuftah'.... It has a host of meanings

It could mean:

1. a dribble, a trickle, a drop or semen (Hans Wehr. A Dictionary of Modern Arabic. Edited by J Milton Cowan. 3rd Edition. 1976, page 974.)

2. a singular entity which is a part of a bigger group of its kind (Lisan Al-Arab dictionary, Book 5, page 725.)

3.the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) explained the nutfah as a combination of substances “from a male nutfah and from a female nutfah" (Musnad Ahmad, Vol. 1, page 465)

4. The Qur’an further clarifies that that the nutfah is a single entity or a drop from a larger group:

Had he not been a s-perm (nutfah) from s-emen (maniyyin) emitted?

5. The companion of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), Ibn Abbas (6th century) mentions that the nutfah is:

from a weak drop of the water/fluid of man and woman. (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas.)

6.Ibn Kathir (13th century), while commenting on the 2nd verse in chapter 76 of the Qur’an, cites Ibn Abbas (6th century) as describing the nutfah stage as the mixing of two fluids, therefore confirming the statement above: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1422&Itemid=132

This means the fluid of the man and the fluid of the woman when they meet and mix.

Verily, We have created man from Nutfah Amshaj, in order to try him, so, We made him hearer and seer. (76:2)

Therefore, nutfah can mean a drop or single entity produce by a combination of drops from the semen and the female equivalent, which contain essential extracts or substances like a sperm or an egg.

Do you now see why i say the Quran's word choice is unmatched

tbaba1234:

I see no contradiction here: Man is made from clay and water.

The basic unit of life is water and Man is made from an essence of clay. 70% of the human body is water. where is the contradiction?

Man is made of clay and water?. . .Nope, elements found in clay and water are also found in man, in fact all physical bodies in the world are made up of some of the elements found in the human body. . .These elements occur in all physical bodies in the solar system including the sun. . . .

What is an extract? something drawn out.... you can't deny that the elements that make up the human body are also present in clay- the point is not whether you can find them elsewhere.

I don't deny that, If man is made from clay why then are some elements like gold, iodine, lithium found in man but not in clay?. . .I understand what you are saying but i disagree that man is created from clay because of the fact that the elements found in clay are also found in all other living things, and all physical bodies in the world. . .To me saying that man was created from clay on the basis that some elements found in man are also found in clay is the same thing as saying that the sun is is made from clay and fire. . .That is my own position. . .

We are also made of water.

These statements are not mutually exclusive:

for instance, I make food from a host of ingredients: If i mention one first and then mention another. It does not make my first statement is wrong or contradictory.

Sure, i understand. . .

Untrue:

...then We placed him as a drop of fluid (nuftah) in a safe place.

The word used for drop of fluid is 'nuftah'.... It has a host of meanings

It could mean:

1. a dribble, a trickle, a drop or semen (Hans Wehr. A Dictionary of Modern Arabic. Edited by J Milton Cowan. 3rd Edition. 1976, page 974.)

2. a singular entity which is a part of a bigger group of its kind (Lisan Al-Arab dictionary, Book 5, page 725.)

3.the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) explained the nutfah as a combination of substances “from a male nutfah and from a female nutfah" (Musnad Ahmad, Vol. 1, page 465)

4. The Qur’an further clarifies that that the nutfah is a single entity or a drop from a larger group:

Had he not been a s-perm (nutfah) from s-emen (maniyyin) emitted?

5. The companion of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), Ibn Abbas (6th century) mentions that the nutfah is:

from a weak drop of the water/fluid of man and woman. (Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas.)

6.Ibn Kathir (13th century), while commenting on the 2nd verse in chapter 76 of the Qur’an, cites Ibn Abbas (6th century) as describing the nutfah stage as the mixing of two fluids, therefore confirming the statement above: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1422&Itemid=132

This means the fluid of the man and the fluid of the woman when they meet and mix.

Verily, We have created man from Nutfah Amshaj, in order to try him, so, We made him hearer and seer. (76:2)

Therefore, nutfah can mean a drop or single entity produce by a combination of drops from the semen and the female equivalent, which contain essential extracts or substances like a sperm or an egg.

Do you now see why i say the Quran's word choice is unmatched

Unmatched by what?. . .What I find intriguing is how muslim apologist take a word give it a litany of meanings, chose from some of the meanings they have listed to construct their own argument. . .I am not saying it is right or wrong but i always find it intriguing and it is always the case as i have noticed. . .

^I gave you dictionary references and even links so you do not say i am giving them meanings that do not exist...

You can tell me the meanings that do not apply:

The verses mentioned were explained by 6th centuries scholars as meaning male and female.

Far ahead of its time...

Trust me if you know just a little about the literary excellence of this book....

Stay open-minded.. there might be hope for you yet...

tbaba1234: ^I gave you dictionary references and even links so you do not say i am giving them meanings that do not exist...

You can tell me the meanings that do not apply:

The verses mentioned were explained by 6th centuries scholars as meaning male and female.

Far ahead of its time...

Trust me if you know just a little about the literary excellence of this book....

Stay open-minded.. there might be hope for you yet...

As I aforementioned, I am not saying that it is right or wrong and I agree that all the words apply. I have noticed a pattern and have some technical reservations, but it doesn't really matter for now. . .We all learn all the time. . .I have learnt from this exchanges. . .