Nihilist:


What is the clown saying?

You are the only that has been shouting correlation upandan. What's my business with correlation?

This was your verbatim statement



My job as the lie detector was to prove you were lying as 3 of those 4 players were in the top 15 for tackles. 2 of them in the top 5. 1 of them in the top 2.

Now after being exposed yet again for yarning bollocks, you're shouting correlation and excel spreadsheet. What next? SPSS? MATLAB?

My nigga cuddle this L and go to sleep.

My friend lets not be combative and stick to the facts. I said "Top 20 tacklers does not include Luiz, Azpi, VVD, Aldeweireld" which it doesn't. You whittled it down to top 20 centrebacks, of which there are only 43 centrebacks. The base of comparison changed from all players to centrebacks only, and it is only fair to compare like for like. I can accept to debate on those terms being that I am not intellectually dishonest.

You then went on an exercise of listing highest tackling 20 centrebacks (50% of the total sample size) to show some of those names I mentioned. A simple visual examination showed the top 20 tackling centrebacks was a mixed bag of good defenders and bad defenders, which does not tell us anything definitive.

If you want to argue something, argue intellectually. I said let's get to the koko of the matter, which is the relationship between no of tackles and being a good defender. In statistics, you cannot talk about relationship without calculating correlation coefficient. I am not about to argue with you about defined and recognised scientific methods of data analysis.

As a start, I have calculated the correlation coefficient between the no of tackles each team makes per game with the no of goals conceded per game. This is a good basis to start since guys will argue about defenders rankings.

This is the list of teams ranked by the no of tackles per game and the no of goals conceded per game:





We then put this into a correlation matrix:




The correlation matrix shows a 0.51 relationship between a teams no of tackles and the no of goals conceded. . . .which is a moderate strength of association between no of tackles and no of goals conceded. . . . . about the same as the flip of a coin for heads or tails.


That is on a team level. On a player level, since you will argue about the ranking of players, I am happy to use the "goals conceded by their team" to rank the defenders and check the correlation against the number of tackles the players make. Let me know if this is an acceptable way to test the correlation between tackles and effectiveness.

Ibime:


My friend lets not be combative and stick to the facts. I said Top 20 tackles does not include any of those players I mentioned which i doesn't. You whittled it down to top 20 centrebacks, of which there are only 43 centrebacks. The base of comparison changed from all players to centrebacks only, and it is only fair to compare like for like. I can accept to debate on those terms being that I am not intellectually dishonest.

Good.

You then went on an exercise of listing highest tackling 20 centrebacks (50% of the total sample size) to show some of those names I mentioned. A simple visual examination showed the top 20 tackling centrebacks was a mixed bag of good defenders and bad defenders, which does not tell us anything definitive.

This is where you want to try and obscure the argument. You said, those 4 players you listed were not in the top 20 tacklers. I listed the top 20 centrebacks and 3 of your listed players were in it. Case closed.

Nihilist:

This is where you want to try and obscure the argument. You said, those 4 players you listed were not in the top 20 tacklers. I listed the top 20 centrebacks and 3 of your listed players were in it. Case closed.

It's not case closed. 20 out of 43 defenders is 50% of the eligible population. The 20 included a mixed bag of atrocious defenders like Otamendis, Steve Cooks and co as well as good defenders. By visual alone, that is a random selection more in keeping with my argument that no of tackles is a style of play.

To settle the matter, I suggest thus:

On a player level, since you will argue about the ranking of players, I am happy to use the "goals conceded by their team" to rank the defenders and check the correlation against the number of tackles the players make.

There is no arguing with a correlation coefficient. It is the defined truth that establishes the relationship between two or more data sets. All I am asking you is if it is acceptable to use goals conceded by their team to rank the defenders and lets test the correlation of that against no of tackles.

Ibime:


It's not case closed. 20 out of 43 defenders is 50% of the eligible population.

Each team has played at least 27 league games this season. Whoscored limit it to defenders who have made at least 15 appearances this season which is a total of 43 defenders.

Even if you expand the list to every centre back who has made at least 1 appearance this season, those players still make the top 20 tacklers of 93 players.

Case firmly closed.

So who rightly deserves to be termed high chief "L chapo" after this independently observed tackling argument?


And before we forget Airmark and chelseafan1...has that bald man not yet answered your questions on boa boas tackling? Make him no try form anti spam bot ban things oh?

Funlordmaniac:



So who rightly deserves to be termed high chief "L chapo" after this independently observed tackling argument?

If you say, Defenders X,Y,Z are not in top 20 in tackles department, you better make damn sure you checked first. These Ls wont hold themselves you know...

Nihilist:


Each team has played at least 27 league games this season. Whoscored limit it to defenders who have made at least 15 appearances this season which is a total of 43 defenders.

Even if you expand the list to every centre back who has made at least 1 appearance this season, those players still make the top 20 tacklers of 93 players.

Case firmly closed.

I repeat, it is not case closed. Aldeweirelds omission alone from top 20 tacklers cast serious doubt over the correlation between tackles and good defending. Otamendis spot at no 1 casts serious doubt over the correlation too. Steve Cook, Ben Mee, Papy Djilobolodji, both Everton defenders and many others in that top 20 casts serious doubt over the correlation between tackling and good defending. This looks like nothing but a random selection based on style of play.

Again, to settle the matter, I suggest thus:

On a player level, since you will argue about the ranking of players, I am happy to use the "goals conceded by their team" to rank the defenders and check the correlation against the number of tackles the players make.

The correlation coefficient is the scientifically defined finality of the matter. As a quick example to help you understand, simple visuals in the below would tell you in the below that there is 100% positive correlation between IQ and Test Result, and 100% negative correlation between IQ and Net worth






The correlation matrix defines that relationship as 1 between IQ and Test Result, and -1 between IQ and Net Worth. It is the number that tells you the relationship between two data sets.




So it is not a matter of he said, she said, I saw, and picking out of incomplete sections of data to suit your argument. Let us run the correlation between no of tackles and no of goals conceded for each player, and see what is what. Agree?

Ibime:



I repeat, it is not case closed.

Ibime: Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season.

Are VVD, Luiz, and Azpi on the the list? Yes or no?

If Yes, case closed.

Ibime:




So it is not a matter of he said, she said, I saw, and picking out of incomplete sections of data to suit your argument. Let us run the correlation between no of tackles and no of goals conceded for each player, and see what is what. Agree?

You were not mentioning correlation when you made your initial statement which has now been proven to be false. I will only entertain any other discussion after you admit that the statement you made about those players missing from the list was factually incorrect. Otherwise, case closed.

Nihilist:


Ibime: Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season.

Are VVD, Luiz, and Azpi on the the list? Yes or no?

If Yes, case closed.

You are running away. Top 20 tacklers does not include those players. You brought top 20 centrebacks with Otamendi as number one. You keep running away from correlation coefficient (which I have not even run yet). It is only so long that one would stomach obstinacy when clear defined resolution of a matter is available.

Nihilist:


If you say, Defenders X,Y,Z are not in top 20 in tackles department, you better make damn sure you checked first. These Ls wont hold themselves you know...

Well the c.e.o of "L PASO" bank of nairaland sports section was earlier spotted making massive L deposits into his coffers this morning so he would definitely be willing to assist any new depositors hold their recently acquired L benefits since he's seems to be working overtime this weekend .I just hope airmark and chelseafan1's manhunt does not cost us his goodwill!

Nihilist:

You were not mentioning correlation when you made your initial statement which has now been proven to be false. I will only entertain any other discussion after you admit that the statement you made about those players missing from the list was factually incorrect. Otherwise, case closed.

They are not on the list! My initial statement was top 20 tacklers, not limited to centrebacks. Though I agree that we should examine the data on centrebacks only for completeness.

What are you talking about me not mentioning correlation? Do I have to spoonfeed you to know that we have been talking about correlation ever since this debate started? We have been talking about the relationship between no of tackles and good defending (low goals conceded) all this while and you did not know we were talking about correlation? Do you need a dictionary? You did not know there are scientific ways of proving these relationships absolutely?

Ibime:


You are running away. Top 20 tacklers does not include those players. You brought top 20 centrebacks with Otamendi as number one. You keep running away from correlation coefficient (which I have not even run yet). It is only so long that one would stomach obstinacy when clear defined resolution of a matter is available.

My friend go and sleep. The case has been closed. The lie detector showed that you were not telling the truth about the top 20 tacklers amongst centrebacks. I don't need any correlation to verify the stats from whoscored. Bye!

Ibime:


They are not on the list! My initial statement was top 20 tacklers, not limited to centrebacks.
?

Why don't you compare shots Cortouis has taken this season to the shots Costa has taken? Or maybe we should check how many saves Hazard has made this season.

First rule of comparison is you compare like for like. Each zone on the pitch has its different risks, so you stick to comparing the players that occupy the same zone. If you don't know this, then why are you even bothering to post Wikipedia definitions and excel worksheets?

This case is Sealed, no Heidi Klum.

Bye!

Nihilist:


Why don't you compare shots Cortouis has taken this season to the shots Costa has taken? Or maybe we should check how many saves Hazard has made this season.

First rule of comparison is you compare like for like. Each zone on the pitch has its different risks, so you stick to comparing the players that occupy the same zone. If you don't know this, then why are you even bothering to post Wikipedia definitions and excel worksheets?

This case is Sealed, no Heidi Klum.

Bye!

I'm not going to get into peurile childish back and forth over my original statement which did not specify centre backs.

Let us agree that your method of comparing centre backs only is correct. So it should be. The rest is just miscomprehension of my original statement. I TOTALLY agree that we should limit comparison to centre backs.

You produced a list which shows 2 of the best 10 centre backs in the top 10 no of tackles. The list also contains 2 of the worst 10 centre backs this year (Otamendi and Steve Cook). So in summary, your list is a mixed bag which tells us nothing visually to help us draw a reasonable conclusion about the relationship between no of tackles and defensive solidity.

So, now that you finally understand that we have been talking about correlation for the last 4 months (relationship, link etc), let us run the correlation on your list and see what's what. Agreed?

Ibime:



Let us agree that your method of comparing centre backs only is correct. So it should be. The rest is just miscomprehension of my original statement. I TOTALLY agree that we should limit comparison to centre backs.

And you were wrong. Finish

This case never close


Now the party is getting hot, ejoo... Coman continue

Hehehehehe. See as the nigga is running. He would rather get hung up on an irrelevant point of me talking about all players than even agree to run the numbers of his list of centre backs only.

"i did not know we were talking about correlation".

This is why you should not argue with simpletons. You could be saying one thing, and they would be understanding another.

My guy, I am ready to run the correlation on YOUR list of centre backs only. Quit harping back to my list of all players to obfuscate matters.

Skimpledawg:
This case never close


Now the party is getting hot, ejoo... Coman continue

Case don close since yesterday. Ibime is just trying to use agidi not to lose face.

Nobody said Tackle is the only measure of a good defensive player. All we said is that tackle is solid part if the defensive toolkit and that is not a lie. Baba don bring out four figure table to calculate Tackle, Goals, even IQ and Salary.

The main thing he said was that top defenders don't tackle, and listed a set of defenders who supposedly do not tackle - all I did was show him that those defenders that he listed are actually the best tacklers in the league within the centreback sector.

Case closed mehn.

Just laughing and observing

Ibime:
Hehehehehe. See as the nigga is running. He would rather get hung up on an irrelevant point of me talking about all players than even agree to run the numbers of his list of centre backs only.

"i did not know we were talking about correlation".

This is why you should not argue with simpletons. You could be saying one thing, and they would be understanding another.

My guy, I am ready to run the correlation on YOUR list of centre backs only. Quit harping back to my list of all players to obfuscate matters.

Oga accantant, go and sleep. We're talking football here, you are busy playing your Calculator like a piano.

I'm here to distribute L only.

Ibime:
@ Nihilist and Airmark,


Look egbons, I don't want to say the one wey go make handshake pass elbow. . . but una dey try my patience. Why is simple empirical evidence hard to recognise?

Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season. I did not see Verthongen or Valencia either. That's your top 6 defenders.

Ngolo Kante is the only player that will PFA Team of the year in the top 20 tacklers. That is empirical evidence, case closed.

Just because NGolo Kante is envogue right now, we have people running around spouting all manner of crap.

The John Terry you have been defending as World Class against Dayo is a low volume tackler. All of my Chelsea defensive heros from Makelele to Ballack were low volume tacklers. I will not come and rubbish them today just because NGolo Kante has a different style of play, nor will I place Ramires above them because of tackle stats.

I put John Terrys tackle stats below. The first people to defend John Terry from Raumdeuter will be the same ones to come around and start telling us that number of tackles is important because of NGolo Kante. Please be consistent.

Let's desist from arguing nonsense. Make we leave am there.

Nihilist:

In 2013/2014 there was no DM in the PFA team. In 2014/2015, the midfielder with the highest number of tackles in the league made the team. In 2015/2016 the midfielder with the highest number of tackles made the team. In 2016/2017, the DM with the highest number of tackles is expected to make the team. So I'm not sure why you're telling me about Erik Pieters or Claudio Yacob.

Nihilist:


We were largely discussing midfielders, don't try and obscure the debate by introducing centrebacks to the discussion. Obviously a CB is the last line of defence. He is less likely to attempt a tackle than a midfielder because the consequences could be disastrous. If a DM misses his tackle, a CB can cover him behind. If a CB misses his tackle, then the attacker could be through on goal.

Respect I dont need to type again. You have killed this.

Nihilist:

The main thing he said was that top defenders don't tackle, and listed a set of defenders who supposedly do not tackle - all I did was show him that those defenders that he listed are actually the best tacklers in the league within the centreback sector.

Again, you are talking nonsense.

I never said top defenders don't tackle. I said tackling is a style of play. Whatever your style of play does not make you a good or bad defender.

And also stop lying on my name.

YOU posted a top 20 tacklers list, not limited to centrebacks, I said:

Ibime:

Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season. I did not see Verthongen or Valencia either. That's your top 6 defenders

I was referring to your list, of course.

Since then, all you have been doing is lying about my original statement to obfuscate matters and wiggle out the fact that you are too dumb to face the science and finish the matter definitively.

You then showed a list with 2 of them in top 10 centreback tacklers, with other rubbish defenders like Otamendi and Steve Cook also in the same list. So again, your list of top centrebacks DOES NOT prove the relationship between tackling and good defending.

So finally, for the dumb obstinate nigga who shout the most at the marketplace and does not know the meaning of correlation, we shall spoonfeed you and check the correlation between tackles and goals conceded using YOUR list.

First things first, Luiz is only no 31 of 43 on tackles per game for centrebacks. In YOUR list you did total no of tackles which placed Luiz at no 13 not taking into account no of games played. Aldewiereld is no 21, Azpi is no 2 and Van Dijk is no 5.

Top of the list for tackles per game is Otamendi.

Ibime:
@ Nihilist and Airmark,




Top 20 tacklers does not contain Aldeweireld, Van Dijk, Luiz and Azpi - those are your 4 best defenders this season

Van Dijk - Number 2

Azpi - Number 4

Vertoghen - Number 5

Luiz - Number 13

Shine your eye bro.

Ibime:
First things first, Luiz is only no 31 of 43 on tackles per game for centrebacks. In your list you did total no of tackles which placed Luiz at no 13 not taking into account no of games played. Aldewiereld is no 21, Azpi is no 2 and Van Dijk is no 5.

Top of the list for tackles per game is Otamendi.

Luiz is 13 for Total number of tackles attempted per game.

Shine your eyes

Edit, actually, Ibime is right. Luiz doesn't make the top 20.

I filtered it wrong.

Azpi is number 2, VVD is number 10, and Aldeirweireld is number 20.

That's still 3 of the original 4 centerbacks in mentioned in the top 20.

Ibime:
First things first, Luiz is only no 31 of 43 on tackles per game for centrebacks. In YOUR list you did total no of tackles which placed Luiz at no 13 not taking into account no of games played. Aldewiereld is no 21, Azpi is no 2 and Van Dijk is no 5.

Top of the list for tackles per game is Otamendi.

Why are you shouting 'your list' as if I'm the one that chose the the top 20 tacklers.

You did that bro. Not me.

You

Nihilist:


Case don close since yesterday. Ibime is just trying to use agidi not to lose face.

Nobody said Tackle is the only measure of a good defensive player. All we said is that tackle is solid part if the defensive toolkit and that is not a lie. Baba don bring out four figure table to calculate Tackle, Goals, even IQ and Salary.

You forget say baba Ibime na mathematician guru

You did well not to tow that path ai swear.

Well, baba has a point though. The relationship between tackles made and goals conceded by a team goes a long way to show how formidable such teams are and on the long run, why tackles are necessary by a DM or defender.

Looking at it from another viewpoint also, 'tackle' whether as a skill or style is a very important part of any defender. The gifs raumdeuter has been running away from since yesterday clearly shows that his self acclaimed Boateng tackled at every point in time to save the team from either a counter or skillful paced players.

In our 2nd leg fixture against Arsenal, Hazards' solo goal was made possible due to negligence on Chloroquine's part not to TACKLE.

My ideal DM is one that knows how to tackle but utilizes such skill set only when necessary.

Skimpledawg:

You forget say baba Ibime na mathematician guru

You did well not to tow that path ai swear.

Well, baba has a point though. The relationship between tackles made and goals conceded by a team goes a long way to show how formidable such teams are and on the long run, why tackles are necessary by a DM or defender.

Ibime is a fantasist. Everybody knows there are many metrics used in assessing a defender, you have tackles. You have blocks. You have interceptions. You have clearances. And that's without even mentioning things like Positioning, pressing, dispossession, loose balls etc.

So if course I won't join him on a fools errand trying to look for correlation between goals conceded and number of tackles because I know that there is more to defending than just tackling.

He is just butthurt that he got caught lying about the likes of VVD and Azpi not being top tackling centrebacks. He even went back to edit his post to add more defenders after quickly checking whoscored to see who wasn't on the list.

He should continue crying. When he's done, he will use this L to wipe his nose.

Some people are just stewpid with impunity.

Oga diggz the Mathematician, you can verify if you wish.

If you don't already know, lets get the official definitions:

"Statistical correlation is measured by what is called coefficient of correlation (r). Its numerical value ranges from +1.0 to -1.0. It gives us an indication of the strength of relationship"




So I pulled Nihilist 43 centrebacks data, looking at the no of tackles per game and no of goals conceded while they were on the pitch.





We then rank the centrebacks ie the person who conceded the least amount per game will be no 1 and the person who conceded the most will be no 43




We then run the correlation matrix to test the strength of relationship between no of tackles and no of goals conceded:





Which shows a correlation of 0.1 ie Very Weak correlation between no of tackles you make and no of goals conceded.

If the maths is too hard for you, check no 1 on the rank of goals conceded, Toby Aldeweireld, languishing in 21st place for no of tackles per game. Check no 2 David Luiz languishing in 31st place.


That folks is the end of the matter, and statistical finality.

Ibime:

Which shows a correlation of 0.1 ie Very Weak correlation between no of tackles you make and no of goals conceded.

This is why I told you to calm down instead of jumping up and down like a madman with fire ant in his pant. Just look at all the calculation you made there and in the end it brought you to a conclusion that Nihilist made how many hours ago?

Nihilist:


Ibime is a fantasist. Everybody knows there are many metrics used in assessing a defender, you have tackles. You have blocks. You have interceptions. You have clearances. And that's without even mentioning things like Positioning, pressing, dispossession, loose balls etc.

So if course I won't join him on a fools errand trying to look for correlation between goals conceded and number of tackles because I know that there is more to defending than just tackling.

Clap for yaself bro