Martian:

Yeah right!! once you think up more crap, you will revisit the thread.

^^^ This guy you really have a bad opinion of me o. Life no hard like that na?

Deep Sight:
^ This guy you really have a bad opinion of me o. Life no hard like that na?

Lol, that's what you do, it's not my opinion.

Reading From religious people on this forum and from my interactions with religious people from all sects, especially abrahamic, I am convinced beyond all doubts that religious faith is actually the opposite of what it claims to be.
By their actions and by the very contracdictory nature of religious doctrine, faith is nothing but a forced or coarced attempt to outwardly accept myths that do not resonate within an individual's inner mind or soul.
Let me show a few examples:

1. The threat of eternal punishment for rejecting belief. How can truth be forced on any one!. The truth should always stand on its own. It is only falshood that needs the constant threat of punishment in order to thrive.

2. Religious people believe that god loves all his creation, but at the same time, each individual is made to feel that god has a special love for him or her.If god's love is universal, all are equal before god and therefore god would be impersonal.
An impersonal god is somethng that religious folks outrightly reject simply because of the fear that a god that loves all equally may not be able to cater to individual whims.That is why the believer is encouraged to keep god very close(through monetary gifts,prayer and praises) or run the risk of abandonement.

3. Religious folks are quick to thank god for every good fortune, and blame the devil for every misfortune. When asked why god would permit the devil to do harm to his beloved, they usually reply that it is only because of god's wish and design. This would imply that god is the overseer of our fortunes and lives. If god is always in the driver's seat, how can anything ever go wrong!.Prayer should be redundant.

Therefore, I ask, is prayer(asking god to change fortunes) not an act of protest!, an indictment!
Is prayer not a covert way of telling god that he needs step up his game and to do a better job than he has been doing!
Are persistent prayers, fastings,tithes and seed sowing(bribes) not a form of doubt in the existence of god and his ability to deliver!
Are loud prayers, prayer vigils, stampinng of feet not a show of frustration and anxiety for a diety whom the petitioner fears might not be around or near!

I have seen that the more the religious fervour,the bigger the fear of the devil, demons, witches and every unknown.
Why does a beleiver need repeated daily or weekly reminders, of the presence and love of god by the use of threats, unless, the purveyors of religious dogma have a constant fear of relapse into doubts!

At the end , everyone lives on doubts about god. The difference is that the religious people are those who are terrified by thier own doubts and therefore take refuge in the repeated assurances of stronger mnded groups who often materially and emotionally exploit them for profit.

I think the opposite is true "We are all religionists". Everyone has a 'god'... For some it is sa sport, for others it is a wife, a girlfriend, lusts & desires, a higher intelligence .... something or someone they submit to.

Your generalization of religions is fairly common of atheists; I can guarantee that for Islam, one can reach a level of absolute certainty in faith... Faith based on evidence that only points to the transcendent. I would address each of your points below

1. Would you rather not be told of an eternal punishment? you are told of an eternal punishment because it exists... A kid who fails Jamb can't get into the University. Is it of benefit for that child to know the result of failure or not? The truth in this case pushes him to work hard. To burn the mid night candle as they say. It serves as a motivation for that kid. Ever heard of been scared straight. Knowledge of consequences of actions is a motivation to pass the test of life. Knowledge of a punishment is a mercy to you.

Besides, Islam's position is more balanced.... One is only eligible for punishment once he has been presented with Islam in its true form and rejects it. I can't say anyone is destined for hell or not, My duty is just to pass the message.. Like the Quran says

“… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8]

Everyone has some intelligence... If you are presented with the truth and you fail to accept it then it is on you.

2. It is not true that God loves all his creatures equally... His mercy extends to every one on the earth, the good, the bad and the Ugly. However, the earth is a temporary place of residence. Those who committed atrocities will pay.

God describes Himself with two attributes of Mercy in the Quran: The Rahman and The Rahim

Rahman is an intense form of mercy, non discriminatory... a kind of mercy that is exclusive to Him.
Rahim is a more specialised kind of mercy and it is reserved for those who obeyed. This mercy would be displayed after life on earth

As regards his love, Humans strive to achieve that from their actions.. So yea, He is a very personal God. Some are closer to his love than others...

Like Allah says

And spend in the way of God and do not throw [yourselves] with your [own] hands into destruction [by refraining]. And do good; indeed, God loves the
doers of good. (surah 2:195)

...Indeed, God loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves.” (Surah 2: 222)

....... And God loves the steadfast. (Surah 3:146)

And do not argue on behalf of those who deceive themselves. Indeed, God loves not one who is a habitually sinful deceiver. (Surah 4:107)

“No disaster strikes upon the earth or among yourselves except that it is in a register before We bring in into being – indeed that, for God, is easy – In order that you not despair over what has deluded you and not exalt [in pride] over what He has given you. And God does not like everyone
self-deluded and boastful.” (al-Hadid 57:22-23).



So far from an impersonal God, he is a personal God. Like He says

And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein (Surah 50 16)


3. God is the giver of everything good or harm... Allah says in the Quran:

And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, Who, when disaster strikes them, say, “Indeed we belong to God, and indeed to Him we will return.” Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy.
And it is those who are the [rightly] guided. (Surah 2 155-157)


In Islam, God is viewed in the Complete context of His names, like the merciful, thr just, the loving, the wise, the severe in punishment. Note: i did not say the all merciful or the all loving... Sometimes God shows us His mercy, at other times his justice; Sometimes things happen due to His superior wisdom.

Also the world is a test for humans, it is not made for just happiness....

Prayer at times of illness helps us appreciate the attributes of God, as the healer for instance. The world in itself is not an end... It is a means to an end.

A muslim recognizes that everything comes from God and he is thankful in times of happiness, patient in times of calamity. The Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam said:

“Amazing is the affair of the believer, verily all of his affair is good and this is not for no one except the believer. If something of good/happiness befalls him he is grateful and that is good for him. If something of harm befalls him he is patient and that is good for him” (Saheeh Muslim #2999)

In the second ayah (verse) of the Quran, Allah introduces Himself

[All] thanks and praise is [due] to God, Rabb of the all that exists (Surah 1:2)

Rabb includes all of the following meanings: “owner, master, ruler, controller, sustainer, provider, guardian and caretaker.” and all thanks belong to Him in all situations.

A muslim realises that he owns nothing and that everything he has, is a gift.... His family, his job, his wealth e.t.c... So when he gains , he is thankful... when he loses, he is not too grieved. He does not despair because it was not his in the first place. It belongs to the Master, Owner, Sustainer...

Allah says in second surah (Chapter)

This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of God8 - Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We
have provided for them, (Surah 2:2-3)


From here we see, that our wealth is described as what has been given to us: So we recognise that we own nothing really so we are grateful for what we have been given.

For the muslim, prayer, fasting e.t.c is serving the master, owner, controller of all that exists. It is a Master- Slave(or servant) relationship.... It is not dependent on whether you feel you have immediate needs... You serve the master, every moment of the day. A muslim ideally considers every act as an act of worship. It is a moving spirituality. There is an amazing tranquility in your affairs when you achieve that state.

We do not fear the devil, witches e.t.c..... But we have been warned:

O you who have believed, enter into Islam completely [and perfectly] and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy. (Surah 2:208)

We are told not to fear

That is only Satan who frightens [you] of his supporters. So fear them not, but fear Me, if you are [indeed] believers. (Surah 3:175)

So no there is no fear of satan, witches or anything of the sort in Islam.

The Quran blows me away every time, there are thousands of Gems that simply point to the book coming from the transcedent. So for a Muslim, you can reach a point of certainty of faith based on the study of the evidence: the Quran. You will never see a scholar of the Quran leave Islam. It is not possible. The evidence is overwhelming.

As you can see, lumping up religions into your little box doesn't work....

Oh, so Deep Sight finally got to vent his ideas on "prayers" here.

I suspected that he was trying to drag me into an argument on the other thread, but armed with the knowledge that his own idea of prayer is different from the rest of the world, which strangely, he stubbornly regards to be THE one true meaning of prayer, I jeje-ly avoided what would have been a total waste of my time.

See ehn, Deep Sight, we know that you have a different perspective on prayers, especially as you define them so poetically with nice and lovely-sounding keywords like "inner spirit", "passionate quest", "soul", etc. BUT, that does not change the FACT that your perception IS the exception and certainly not the norm. And if you so disagree, it would probably do you well to find another name to describe your personal talks with the oneness of infinity, rather than attempt to force your ideas on the rest of us that disregard the whole concept altogether.

Do not be deceived by those who have twisted Christianity for their own pride and selfishness. Prayer is not just about asking. It is communication with God. It could be vocal, contemplative or even meditative. You could be requesting for something good (in human eyes), or even accepting something bad (in human eyes) in good faith. Prayer is not as limited as you think it is.

italo: Do not be deceived by those who have twisted Christianity for their own pride and selfishness. Prayer is not just about asking. It is communication with God. It could be vocal, contemplative or even meditative. You could be requesting for something good (in human eyes), or even accepting something bad (in human eyes) in good faith. Prayer is not as limited as you think it is.

Nonsense, communication is a 2 way thing. God never replies, yuhave never heard his voice.

I have. Besides, an intelligent person would know that one doesn't necessarily have to talk verbally to communicate. Only a dumbass...sorry...no insults!

italo: I have. Besides, an intelligent person would know that one doesn't necessarily have to talk verbally to communicate. Only a dumbass...sorry...no insults!

You have heard god's voice? Does god sound like a woman or man? Does he have yoruba accent?

Or does god use sign language?

Can you explain this godly communication for me?

logicboy:
You have heard god's voice? Does god sound like a woman or man? Does he have yoruba accent?

Or does god use sign language?

Can you explain this godly communication for me?

Why should I tell you all these when you have the means to experience it for yourself.

Humble yourself before God with purity of heart and intention. Then communicate with him and he will respond. It may not be audible...or immediate. But he will respond because he loves you as much as he loves me.

italo:

Why should I tell you all these when you have the means to experience it for yourself.

Humble yourself before God with purity of heart and intention. Then communicate with him and he will respond. It may not be audible...or immediate. But he will respond because he loves you as much as he loves me.

Tried that for 22 years, it is a lie.


You can not describe it because it doesnt exist.

You didn't get a response because you didn't try that for 22yrs. Its a lie.

italo: You didn't get a response because you didn't try that for 22yrs. Its a lie.

lol...you now know my personal life? What does the bible tell you about judging others (you know nothing about my life when I was a christian)?

God doesnt exist

Italo doesn't understand how subjective emotions are. The same proof for gods for someone is the same proof for no gods.

logicboy:
God never replies, yuhave never heard his voice.

logicboy:
lol...you now know my personal life?...(you know nothing about my life when I was a christian)?

God doesnt exist

See how incoherent and scatter-brained you are?

Seriously, do you see it?

italo:



See how incoherent and scatter-brained you are?

Seriously, do you see it?

You are foolish. After editing my comments foolishly, how do you expect them to no be haphazard. However, even with your remix, the haphazardness still shows that you know nothing about my christina life and you are foolish to judge it both from a biblical sense and common sense

logicboy:
You are foolish. After editing my comments foolishly, how do you expect them to no be haphazard. However, even with your remix, the haphazardness still shows that you know nothing about my christina life and you are foolish to judge it both from a biblical sense and common sense

Sorry, but its nearly impossibly to edit foolish comments 'wisely.' I might know little about your past so-called Christain life, but that "little" is very important. At least I know you lie about it and use it to deceive unsuspecting people. You once called yourself "a hardcore Catholic for 22yrs". What "hardcore Catholic", if there's anything like that, wouldn't know:

1. His Parish Priest.

2. The Religious Order that runs his parish.

3. The mass (time) he attended every Sunday (52 weeks in a year X 22 years = More than 1000 times)

Etc...

Then you talk about Judging. What do you know about the Bible telling us not to judge? The Bible is our Father's words to we his children. So you don't interprete for me. I know what my Father wants.

italo:

Sorry, but its nearly impossibly to edit foolish comments 'wisely.' I might know little about your past so-called Christain life, but that "little" is very important. At least I know you lie about it and use it to deceive unsuspecting people. You once called yourself "a hardcore Catholic for 22yrs". What "hardcore Catholic", if there's anything like that wouldn't know:

1. His Parish Priest.

2. The Religious Order that runs his parish.

3. The mass he attended every Sunday (52 weeks in a year X 22 years = More than 1000 times)

Etc...

Then you talk about Judging. What do you know about the Bible telling us not to judge? The Bible is our Father's words to we his children. So you don't interprete for me. I know what my Father wants.

See this guy! you think that I will give up such info so that people would know the area that I live in Nigeria on Nairaland?

ode.

Oh please! Tell that to the marines!

I told you before, you can deceive other people on that issue, not me.

italo: Oh please! Tell that to the marines!

I told you before, you can deceive other people on that issue, not me.

Even if went to church only twice in my life, I would know both the parish priest and the church's organisations. Just read the mass bulletin

plaetton: But is there anything that is properly understood through religion. If everything was ideal, then there would be no need for debates on this forum. Everything about religion is controversial. Just read all the posts on this forum. the religious people are even confused about which versions or translations of their revealed truth is truly true . It leaves room for a lot of caricature. Those of us that are free just have to enjoy our laughs.

You think you are free. You forget that you are bound to your atheism as much as religionists are bound to their religions or should I say philosophies. On this forum I twice gave the argument that Atheism is a religion only to be rebuffed. One atheist made me divert into other topics. Google 'Atheism Is A REligion' & 'Atheism Is A Religion (Part II)'. You atheists always forget that Christianity historically arose as a philosophy amidst others. It fought and conquered other schools of thought which abounded in the late Roman Empire.

Uyi Iredia:

You think you are free. You forget that you are bound to your atheism as much as religionists are bound to their religions or should I say philosophies. On this forum I twice gave the argument that Atheism is a religion only to be rebuffed. One atheist made me divert into other topics. Google 'Atheism Is A REligion' & 'Atheism Is A Religion (Part II)'. You atheists always forget that Christianity historically arose as a philosophy amidst others. It fought and conquered other schools of thought which abounded in the late Roman Empire.

We can have that debate right now.

Atheism is not bound by any rules/laws like a religion.

logicboy:


We can have that debate right now.

Atheism is not bound by any rules/laws like a religion.

Here's the topic. Read it then make your reply. I'll reply you on that thread.

Uyi Iredia:

Here's the topic. Read it then make your reply. I'll reply you on that thread.

I prefer a clean slate. Can I start a new thread where we can debate? I will post the link to the thread here

logicboy:

I prefer a clean slate. Can I start a new thread where we can debate? I will post the link to the thread here

Okay

Uyi Iredia:

Okay

Give me some seconds to start the thread.

logicboy:

Give me some seconds to start the thread.

Oya now !

@OP
Thank you for the thoughtful post. I believe its only human to have doubts from time to time. i do have doubts myself.
For example; Who determined Dec 25 to be the Birthday of Jesus despite all evidence to the contrary? and why would God curse Adam and Eve when he did not create them infallible in the first place?
also, did God ever intend them to know the difference between good and evil?
The only thing Adam ever did wrong was reaching out for knowledge, or experimenting with the forbidden. When did that become such a grievous sin?
So many questions

Uyi Iredia:

Oya now !

Here is the thread
https://www.nairaland.com/951853/atheism-not-religion-hardcore-debate

coolruler: @OP
Thank you for the thoughtful post. I believe its only human to have doubts from time to time. i do have doubts myself.
For example; Who determined Dec 25 to be the Birthday of Jesus despite all evidence to the contrary? and why would God curse Adam and Eve when he did not create them infallible in the first place?
also, did God ever intend them to know the difference between good and evil?
The only thing Adam ever did wrong was reaching out for knowledge, or experimenting with the forbidden. When did that become such a grievous sin?
So many questions

Indeed these are valid questions. The Garden of Eden particularly marked my first point of exit from religion.

Perhaps, the most baffling aspect of the Eden story is that Eve was punished by an omnibenevolent God for doing wrong, even when she had no idea what "wrong" meant.

logicboy:
Even if went to church only twice in my life, I would know both the parish priest and the church's organisations. Just read the mass bulletin

That's the point. A serious Catholic would. Not you, or any of your kind.

italo:

That's the point. A serious Catholic would. Not you, or any of your kind.

You still believe that I wasnt a serious catholic?

We both know!