educating

olabowale, may GOD 4give u. u cant understand anything because u're living in the dark. the harder u try to understand, d more confused u become. just check out all the things u have written, do they make any sense to u? WAKE UP. the God of the xtians is a loving GOD and a GOD of peace. can u say same about Allah? my GOD is not a GOD of violence. think about this and repent from ur ways. fellow xtians in the house, dont bother explaining anything anymore, he wont understand. just pray for him to realize the truth.

@flowingcome

Insert Quote
olabowale, may GOD 4give u. u can't understand anything because u're living in the dark. the harder u try to understand, d more confused u become. just check out all the things u have written, do they make any sense to u? WAKE UP. t[b]he God of the xtians is a loving GOD and a GOD of peace. [/b] can u say same about Allah? my GOD is not a GOD of violence. think about this and repent from your ways. fellow xtians in the house, don't bother explaining anything anymore, he wont understand. just pray for him to realize the truth.

Let us read verses about the loving and peaceful God in the bible

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."


Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, , and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."

2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."


Deuteronomy 2 v 32-37


And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.
33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.
36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us



Deuteronomy 3 v 1-7

1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.
2 And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
3 So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.
4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.
5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.
6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.
7 But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves

Do you still need more so that I serve you?

When you try to deny the above verses, I will give you facts that christians need to follow the OT.

Alhaji - I have been very busy with work, hence I haven't replied you.

@Alexis: Thank you for handing the floor over to me. But fake as disingenuos flattery will earn you no points with me. The first rule is that there is no way you, as a non Arab can be a better Arab linguist/scholar that the Arabs! Secondly, Qur'an is the standard of which Arab language, grammar, etc are measured. That includes the Arab Bible. So based on this, your understanding of anything Arabic, will have to be based on its ranking with the Qur'anic Arabic. Let me make it very elementary for you: In Bahia, Brasil (Brazil), Yoruba is spoken. Could their Yoruba be purer than the Yoruba spoken in the Western part of Nigeria? No, it will be impossible! The Yorubas say: A ji se bi Yoruba lan ri, Yoruba o nji se bi eni kon. Fela Anikulapo said in one of his yappies; English is Yoruba badly spoken (This one is to make you relax, so that you can listen, attentively)!

Old man - I am not questioning the Arabic language, I am questioning the authenticity of the quran, I am questioning who compiled the quran and the numerous errors and flaws that you claim was made in heaven before the beginning of the world. Whether the quran is written in Arabic, English French or Mongolian - it remains the same - a book of contradiction, incitement to hate and kill in the name of a god. Those are the things I have problem with.

I have a Muslim classmate and I asked him a question. I asked, "if a Islamic convert can't read the quran in Arabic will he go to heaven?". he said no. In that case, what hope does the quran or Islam offer to a sinning soul. So, if my mother tongue is not Arabic, does it mean that I can't go to the Muslim heaven? Your yoruba analogy doesn't hold water alhaji - there are several dialects of yoruba whether it is spoken in Nigeria or brasil (that is beside the point)

Iqra, the first word revealed to Muhammad (as), means proclaim to him. Since Muhammad did not know how to read anyway, it could also mean recite to him. But to the rest of the muslims and arabs, regardless of religion, it also mean read. So the Qur'an, unlike your narrow defination of what the muslims do, is read, recited and proclaimed when there is sermon, ministrial effort, etc. Yes most Muslims recite the Qur'an, because the legislation and explanation of it is been preserved, in tafsir, hadith, sunnah, sirah and other sort of school of knowledge. For example, the issue of Riba (interest), is illustrated by it having 72 levels. The lowest level of which it is in offense is on the same level with a man who have sex with his own mother! If you hear this, and it was passed down from generation directly, from Muhammad, without a break in chain of narration,what is there for you to try to independently think about?

Alhaji - Reading, reciting and proclaiming continiously (over and over again) is a pagan method of worship. Those were what the Arabians did when worshiping the moon-god. We are free moral agents that should use our brains, when we read we should ask questions to understand. But Islam forbids questions. Look at the following surah

"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).

"The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions , so do not try to probe into such things." (The Meaning of the Qur'an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)

"The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (vol. 1, no. 92) The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (vol. 1, no. 91) "Allah has hated you, [for] asking too many questions." (vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591, Bukhari's Hadith commenting on Muhammad’s reaction to hostile questioners.)

What are you guys scared of that you don't want people to ask questions about the quran?

You want to have your own explanation about it, whereby you permit the impermissable? Unfortunately, you do not know that the first organised University by mankind, which is still in existence is the Islamic University Al Ahza in Egypt. All other colleges of higher learning, around the world are modelled after this Islamic institution. So much for not being independent thinker and just being a Zombie. The Muslim Arabs wrote about Allah of preIslamic era, to mean exactly the Allah of Islam, courtesy of Arabic scholar, his excellency Alexis! Why would the Muslims, controlling the whole of Arab, including its language, the best of its culture, that they will foolishly exposed their God to you and people like you, if that God is exactly the ordinary God or equivalent to the idol god of the Arabs, before Islam of Muhammad? Yet the first thing they did when they entered Makka as victors, without raising a single sword, was to destroy all the 360 Idols in the ka'aba! Thes muslim pagans, the nerves of them, destroying their own gods!

Alhaji - Stick to the point, we are not talking about universities here. Let us tackle the issue at hand. There were no muslims arabs before muhammed came alhaji (don't confuse us), they were arabs (most worshiped the moon-god). It was after muhammed brought islam that you started calling them muslim arabs. Pre-isamic arabs didn't expose any god to us alhaji - muhammed exposed allah to us, you exposed allah to us (the terrorist bombings all over the world today) is the way you can expose allah to us. Why do you lie so much alhaji, they entered mecca without raising the sword eh? So you should know, some of us had islamic background and it is only people that are not informed will believe your lies. Even as little as 4, I was told stories of how islamic warriors entered mecca and killed, we learnt that they killed so much that they will only stop if the blood of their "enemies reached the thighs of the horses. So much for not raising the sword eh?

I am laughing and rolling on the floor. So in one surah, the quran declares it was angel gabriel and in another surah when it mention 'angels' were given the quran you decided to add other angels with gabriel,lol. Unfortunately, I am at work and I don't have my quran with me. I will show you the surah I am referring to in no way referred to angel gabriel when it mentioned 'angels' my friend, it if had did - the all knowing Allah should have known and mentioned it clearly?
Alexis knows better than Allah! You need to read surah Al Maidah and see what the condition of Isa bin Mariam will be in the day of Judgement! He will be questioned in the front of mankind, by his Lord. So if your god Jesus will be questioned, you can imagine how off the straight path you are, to be analysing God Almighty Allah. I am free of your deeds, Alex. Please bring up the verses about Angels and let us look into your African Christian understanding Arabic Islam textbooks and grammar!

What kind of god does not know who he gave his word to bring to his prophet. Is it the god that can't remember if he gave it to 'angel gabriel', 'angels' or 'some holy spirit'. If he is all knowing as you claim why a simple matter of how his word came to mortals like us is not consistent. Unfortunately - I am not a muslim, so I have to ask questions. A god that can't keep his word in tact fails to be the Almighty God.

So, it is only when the quran came that Jesus will be questioned? I have told you times without number that you can't use the quran as a basis of judgment when it comes to biblical matters but you never listen. Jesus died, rose and was seen bodily by many people, this happened over 600 years ago before Islam came. Your quran or allah can never judge the Saviour of the world old man. Go dig up some false teaching and try and seduce the uninformed, it doesn't work on me. I will post the verses about the angels in my next post.

Alexis, to properly response to you, I have to take you back as far as father Ibrahim time in Iraq. This is where we have to begin. Since Ibrahim was the father of of the Arabs, through his first son, Ismail, who was truly the only son, in all the 13 years before his younger brother Isiaq was born. We see from this event, that Yahweh, Judaism could not have existed, as name of God to an Iraqi citizen stateman, from your. Neither as a religion nor as an ethnic identity. The truth is that the two elements came to being, at a later date, but not before the exodus event out of Egypt, under Moses! By the way, the religion of Moses was not Judaism. But I will leave that for another topic! Definitely, Jew as an ethnic identity, came after the brother of Joseph, Judah a son of Jacob, who was the son of Isaic, who was the younger son of but never was the only son of Ibrahim! So, since the children of Judah could be identified by their geneology as the Jew, within the 12 tribes of Israel, then there are 5 generation between Ibrahim and the first set of people that could be called Jews, the descendants of Judah, who was a Child of Israel, who was a Child of Isiaq, who was a child of great, great, grandfather Ibrahim!

Blah blah blah - and your point is? You go off topic most of the time. For the last time - answer the questions sir.

Allah declared in the Qur'an that Ibrahim was not a Jew and not a Christian, he was a one who negated all kind of associating in worship (Hanifan), who is a muslim (bowing his will in obedience), to One true God! Now, the Muslims say that Ibrahim and his only son Ismail rebuilt the Ka'aba after the flood of Noah. If you disagree, please prove me wrong! Did Ibrahim, who was the father, hence the leader, between the two, since his son was not more than 20 years at best at this time, built this structure to worship any idol? The answer is NO! If you recall, it was the great event of Idol destruction which Ibrahim undertook, that sent him packing out of Iraq! Ibrahim, therefore could not have destroyed many idols and then start worshipping any when he left the idolaters of your, Iraq!

Old man - and your point is?

Whatever the reason that Ibrahim had in building the Ka'aba, it would never have been for any idol sanctuary or worship! It is Ibrahim who called mankind, under the commandment of Allah The God to Hajj. Up to this time, Allah of Ibrahim was in no way associated with any Idol. Abi Alexis? There was no Idol in Ka'aba of Ibrahim, o sha de ron ti, abi? There is no report also that Ismail worshipped Idol! So any idol in the Ka'aba must have arrived after Ismail. It is save to assume also that he probably instructed his children, who would be in the same level of heritage with Ibrahim as Jacob is, not to worship anything except the God that Ibrahim, he Ismail worshipped. They, the children would have also passed on this injuction down to their own offsprings, just like Jacob did with his own 12 sons (and the daughters which were never mentioned). We see how great the value of women were with the Jews and the Christians. Alexis, oro lo boro wa o. I was not going there, but you just had to force my hands with your scholarly misfiring! We know that in all the generations, between Joseph's glorious presence in Egypt, and the exodus of the Children of Israel out of it, under Moses, would have to be many hundreds of years! We know that there was nothing called Yahweh/Jehovah, etc, up to the time the Bible was reporting that Moses got them to the wilderness, where he was instructed the process of worship, and God revealing His name to them at that time! In the maintime, the branch of Ismail, was blotted out of the history of the descendant of Ibrahiim, but at least they were flourishing, in the desert! Contrary to your statement, there were people in Yemen and Iraq (the home country of Ibrahim, Lut, before the great migration), and in other places. We also noticed that Ibrahim met people in Jerusalem when he arrived there and of course his journey to Egypt, was not a journey to a desolated place!

Did the bible ever tell you abraham built any kabaa? Another of your great lies!. You no get shame?

The introduction, of idol to the Ka'aba was fully reported in the Sunnan/Hadith, Sirah of the prophet and Tafsir of Qur'an. You just have to research it on your own, since you are going to teach us our religion, which you know nothing about! Your finding out that part of preIslamic Arab history will be a good start to enlightening your heart. Ismail branch of Ibrahim's bloodline did not speak the same language as Isiaq branch! But they worship One Supreme God, based on the instruction of Ibrahim alone. What was the name of that God, Alexis? Do you know it? I submit to you that God was called Allah! If you have a proof that I am incorrect, please present it and do not hesitate to do so!

I will gently disarm your argument on the same grounds I have used before - you can't use your islamic teaching to judge biblical characters and history, it doesn't hold water old man. I don't need to teach you islam alhaji - we all know enough about islam already (Blow yourself up and 72 virgins will be waiting for you in heaven).

You are right that there was hajj in the preislamic arab. But you did not know that the children of Isiaq used to make this hajj, until idol(s) became permanent in the ka'aba! It has been reported that Prophet Solomon made this hajj, as commanded by God on Ibrahim. This is your second assignment Alexis! Finally, when Islam came to Muhammad, from the first revelation, if Allah was not the proper name of GOD the Almighty, Allah Himself, Who says in Surah Ahzab that He is not shy, would have instructed 'Ruuh Qudus,' who brought revelation to Muhammad for 23 years to change the name, to the peoper name which was not in used by the preIslamic Arabs! But wait, Muhammad went on a night journey known as Isra wa Miraj. In heaven when he spoke directly to his Lord, definitely, he would have instructed to change it to the 'proper name,' if that was not 'Allah!' In all your arguments, it is as if the Arab penisula was a gulf dividing your heart from your soul. They do not agree to the truth that you are seeing! Alexis, ma duro ni ibi yi. If you have anything to say about this, please say it. Let the people of Nairaland make their own 'educated' and disinterested judgement. You as a Yoruba man do not know enough about the history of the Yorubas, yet, you are going to educate the Muslims about the meaning of Allah of Al Islam, connecting it to Allah of preIslam? Ko ye mi o. Bo ya mi o ka nko to ko dara dara ni. Mi o a kuku le ka ede Keferi, ti kiriyo to nso. Mi o le kaa oba me ta ni ikon!

Alhaji - did I ever give you the impression that I was a yoruba man? Please don't assume old man, if you want to know anything about me - ask, okay? So, you have agreed that the arabs in preislamic arabia performed the hajj? So, if we all agreed that those arabians worshiped the moon-god and muslims (current muslims) perform the same hajj, wetin come be the difference alhaji?

Where did you learn that solomon performed your hajj? . Na wa for you oh alhaji. Next you will claim that Jesus kissed muhammed feet. Liar!

Yeah right!, alhaji - this is a simple task, just prove that the Allah of pre-islamic arabia is different from the Allah that muhammed brought. They are the same deities, the mode of worship, the rites, the travelling to mecca and praying 5 times a day was done thousands of years before the advent of muhammed islam.
This cheap attempt of not answering the question doesn't make your statement correct. There are authentic sources (history, text and scrolls) that I can refer you to that pre-islamic arabians used to pray 5 times a day. Again, if they used to do it before the advent of islam and worship Allah, what is the difference between the Allah that they used to pray 5 times a day to and the Allah that you pray 5 times a day to? I expect that you can honestly answer this question.
I never mentioned anything about Ibrahim and he being a pagan or not. Infact I have no clue what you are talking about. I never mentioned anything about muhammed splitting the moon miracle either, where is all this coming from? These are irrelevant to the question at hand. I asked if they pilgrimage to the kaaba that pre-islamic arabians used to go to and worship Allah is different from the pilgrimage that muslims to go now? Which other way can I put the question for you to answer? I dey wait oh!
The last but not the least question - What religion worships every Friday, faces meccah when praying today? An honest and simple answer is all I need, no stories about any miracles or how I don't know anything about islam, I just need a simple answer.
I hand the floor over to you - alhaji

Thank you, thank you Alexis; You've heard Fela's record Jeun Ko ku, where he said,'i never talk finish?' I am going to finish with you by saying that if you have any proof that the daily Salah, Jumu'ah salah and Hajj that the preIslamic Arab perform, is exactly the same that the Muslims of Muhammad perform please bring it to Mankind! For sure, their salah, if there is any will be different, because the Wudu, Ahdan, Iqamah, Quiyan, ruku and sajdah, all in Islamic daily and Jumuah salah, Qur'an came about with the Prophethood of Muhammad, Jumuah is a combination of Qur'an and hadith and salah, Hajj is a combination of Arafah, which is today by the way, other rites and Umrah, which includes the Masjid Al Nawawi, in Madina! Every which way, Alexis, your information will be inadequate! I follow your advise, There is no story here!

I give the floor back to you sir, or any of your associates, in religion, or any non Muslims who has anything tangible to contribute, with honesty and without bold face lies. E pele sir.

Alhaji - you have just stabbed yourself in the foot. You stipulated that preislamic arabs mode of worship and rituals are almost the same as present muslims but they are not EXACTLY the same. You take your mouth say the thing yourself . You just don't want to accept that your entire life and belief is based of a pagan doctrine of pre-islamic arabs worship of the moon-god.

That been said, I will bring the surahs you asked me to bring alhaji. In the meantime, please hit the floor

@Alexis: Please ask anyone to read my piece to you. What I said is very direct. I negated all possibilities that Islam of Muhammad and preIslamic could ever be the same. Let me say it in Market woman language; The Arabs before Muhammad did not Make salah. The arabs before Muhammad did not make Umrah, hence what they call hajj, is completely different from Muslim's! The arabs before Muhammad did not make Jumu'ah salah!

What part of it you did not understand? And if you have any proof, please bring it and lets be able to verify your sources! And please don't forget the Surah you had promised. Please its a gentlemanly reminder. lol.

my reply? an emphatic no!those of you who serve alla are on ur own

We are on our own, in relationship with you. We are on the side of God. We have God as our 'SUFFICIENT and ONLY' needed support. Hence we are the majority, but not by head counts. The head count advantage belongs to you. majority may rule, but may not be write by being the ruler.

Alhaji, perhaps I should rephrase the question for you

1. What common ritual and mode of worship does pre-islamic Arabs and Muslims have in common?
2. What is the difference between pre-islamic arabs sacrificing rams during their hajj and Muslims killing rams "sallah" now? No be the same? Abi because the name is different?
3. Muslims have nearly everything in common with the pre-islamic arabs yet you claim you worship one god.
4. Pre-islamic arabs threw petals at a great stone in mecca to symbolize "stoning the devil". Don't present Muslim do the same thing? Una go they throw stone at another stone calling him the devil, I am sure it is during this time that the devil has the greatest fun ever - laughing at you ignorant people.

Please give me a couple of hours, I am preparing the surahs where your allah gave angel gabriel, angels and the holy spirit the koran to give muhammed. Then we will see what black and polished lie you will come up with now

@Alexis: The topic is, "God, Allah do we all serve the same God?" When you started your engagement with me on this topic, I was hope that we would be on topic, without straying at all. But to my surprise, you are using the, "Bible," as a yardstick, trying to force me to accept it. In what ground do you think I will record Saul/Paul and all the post Jesus ascension materials, as truth? No ground at all, because they are clearly opposing what Jesus stood for. They went against the relevance of Moses law, which Jesus confirmed and practised. So in one broad stroke, Paul and his clique cancel the law and Jesus relevance. Afterall, most of the things that the Christians do today is based on Paul's hypothesis, and Jesus has nothing to do with it. A good example is the place of your worship, Church and your identity, Christianity/Christians. Both are unknown to Jesus. You are clearly on your own!

Alhaji, perhaps I should rephrase the question for you
1. What common ritual and mode of worship does pre-islamic Arabs and Muslims have in common?
2. What is the difference between pre-islamic arabs sacrificing rams during their hajj and Muslims killing rams "sallah" now? No be the same? Abi because the name is different?
3. Muslims have nearly everything in common with the pre-islamic arabs yet you claim you worship one god.
4. Pre-islamic arabs threw petals at a great stone in mecca to symbolize "stoning the devil". Don't present Muslim do the same thing? Una go they throw stone at another stone calling him the devil, I am sure it is during this time that the devil has the greatest fun ever - laughing at you ignorant people.(/quote]

I will give you answers, regardless of your incoherence; (1). None except that all the Children of Ibrahim responded to his call for hajj. Before Islam of Muhammad, the pre-Islamic arabs, the Children of Israel, Prophet King Solomon, a very glaring example made hajj. The Children of Israel stopped making the hajj, when the idols, became a permanent fixture in Ka'aba. However the complete process of hajj of Muslim includes Arafat, which the pagans did not do and many others which includes Umrah and the travel to Madina. Since I do not know what you are by tribe, I will use the Yoruba tradition am very familiar with: The Brasilian (Brazilian) State known as Bahia, associates herself with the Yoruba culture. They speak a Yoruba that is not pure like the Yoruba spoken by the Yoruba's of South West of Nigeria. Are these two Yorubas the same? Never! It is the same with Islamic Hajj and pagan hajj. The commonality is in name only. It is the same with the Christian Yahweh and the Jewish Yahweh. While the former group has 3 godhead in their Yahweh, the later has just 1! Alexis, are you Yoruba, since you said I should ask you, if I need to know! I wanted to poke fun at you, since you said I should 'hit ground,' in your last entry. The proper statement is 'hit the ground, as in postrate, am sure you intended.' I did and gave postration to God almighty who does not let my heart be seduced by the evil of man, jinn or that of myself.

(2). The slaughter is not 'sallah.' It is adha or give. You see it shows the same mindset that i see most non Muslim Nigerian have. They associate Islam with Northern Nigeria. Islam is bigger that that small group of people. Indeed Islam is bigger than the whole of Arab or even mankind itself!

(3). You only made a statement and you are wrong in your assumption. You deserve no answer here except to simply rebuke you on your ignorance of the subject matter you are claiming to be a pundit.

(4). Its a shame that you have know knowledge of Islam, hence you just run your mouth.

Please give me a couple of hours, I am preparing the surahs where your Allah gave angel Gabriel, angels and the holy spirit the koran to give Muhammad. Then we will see what black and polished lie you will come up with now

Alexis, you have a lifetime to research your unresearchable. If am older than you, after am dead, somebody will carry the flag to response to you when you put your lies forward. After you die, whoever raise your deceitful idea among the non Muslims, there will be Muslims alive to respond to him/her. Then God Almighty, (without the aid of Jesus and the 12 apostles of Jesus, who you Christians say will Judge the 12 tribes of the house of Israel, hence we see here that the ministry of Jesus was strictly within the boundary of the house of Jacob, the Children of Israel), alone, will decide the inmates of hell and the the inhabitants of paradise.

@Flowincome:

olabowale, may GOD 4give u. u can't understand anything because u're living in the dark. the harder u try to understand, d more confused u become. just check out all the things u have written, do they make any sense to u? WAKE UP. the God of the xtians is a loving GOD and a GOD of peace. can u say same about Allah? my GOD is not a GOD of violence. think about this and repent from your ways. fellow xtians in the house, don't bother explaining anything anymore, he wont understand. just pray for him to realize the truth

May God forgive me; Amin. I now ask you when you said, 'GOD,' which God are you inferring? The 3 godhead God or the God who creaded Adam, and all things? The later is the True God and He is complete and pure in Oneness. There is no need for Him to have multiple head. Then the former is in the realm of idolatry. If anything is more than 1, it is plural, or multiple. That God with Multiple godhead i do not need anything from.

And I am very satisfied with my choice of religion. My objective is very clear. My goal of hereafter is my focal point.

@Poster :

The Christian " God " is completely different from the muslim or Islamic " god or allah" . They are not the same and they will never be the same.

The Christians believe that :

. The Bible is the Inspired, Inerrant Word of God to Man. The Holy Scriptures are God’s revelation of Himself to Man. We believe that all 66 books of the Bible, although written by different men, only had one Author, God the Holy Spirit. God told Jeremiah, “I watch over my word to perform it.” (Jer. 1:12) This indicates the importance of the accuracy of the Bible to the LORD because He has to do what He said He would do; therefore, it was incumbent upon Him to be certain that the Scriptures were both set down and translated accurately. Therefore, we believe in the inerrancy of the Holy Scriptures.

In addition, we believe that the Word of God as set forth in the Bible is sufficient to meet all the needs – spirit, soul and body – of every person alive today upon the earth.

The muslims have their own " bible they call the Quran" , which is completely different from the bible and full of contradiction. They also have the hadith (although not all the muslims believe in the Hadith ).

The Bible contains promises of God set forth in a covenant or legal agreement between God and man which will meet every need you will ever have in this life.

The Spirit of God inspired men to write the books of the Bible as evidenced by the following Scriptures:

“The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.”

(2 Samuel 23:2)

“And the LORD spake by his servants the prophets, saying …” (2 Kings 21:10)

“But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:20-21).

“All Scripture is inspired by God …” (2 Timothy 3:16)

“And for this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God’s message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

The Lord Jesus left His word for us to meet our needs. Every need you have or will ever have – healing, finances, relationships, etc. – can be met through the word of God by a person believing by faith and trusting that the Lord will do what He said in His word He would do.

The number one problem in the Church today, however, is that most Christians – even ministers – don’t believe the Bible. Jesus left His word for you but if you don’t believe it He cannot “confirm it with signs following” (Mark 16:20)

"Jesus’ name, YHWH, means, “I AM.” He is the I AM -- a very present help – for all that we believe Him to be. He is more than sufficient to meet our every need if we will only believe."

“For with God nothing is impossible.” (Matthew 19:26; Luke 1:37)

The Word of God (bible) will meet your every need if you will read it, believe it and act upon it (the Bible says that faith without corresponding action is dead, James 2), and that we are to be doers of the word. “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” (James 1:22)

@Olabowale :

How are you doing today and how is Manhattan ?

I feel I need to clarify your understanding of the blessed trinity because of the confusion that is running riot in your head or will I say running riot as a result of what your quran have told you:

THERE IS ONE TRUE GOD

Although there are many false gods existing in this world and in the spirit realm, there is only one true God; however, He exists in three forms: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There are many, many scriptures that support this fact in both the Old and New Testaments.

The Lord Jesus Christ was both God and Man

This is a difficult concept to understand and is in fact misunderstood by the majority of Christians who believe the Lord Jesus, because He was (and still is) the Son of God had a much easier time on earth than they do because He was God and thus had certain special privileges by virtue of His omnipotence, omniscience, etc.

The key to understanding this concept is found in Philippians 2, a concept from the Greek word, Kenosis, which means an “emptying.”

Jesus emptied Himself of His Divine attributes (v.7) and “taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”

The main difference between Jesus and all other men and women is that His Spirit, the Spirit of God, was placed inside a Body within the womb of Mary instead of a human spirit. Therefore, He was still God but He had laid aside His Divine power and privileges when He came to earth to do the will of the Father. This is why Jesus never performed any miracles until after He was anointed with the Holy Spirit when He was water baptized by the prophet John. He had to be anointed by the Spirit for His ministry just like we do today although for a different reason – because He had left His power and glory in Heaven prior to His coming to earth to be born of a virgin.

“How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)

Jesus has always existed as the Son of God. He existed with the Father before the worlds were created and like the Father He is eternal. “’I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, ‘who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’” (Revelation 1:

Jesus was the only person ever born of a virgin. It was prophesied of the Messiah that He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:22-23, Luke 1:26-35 et al) yet the Old Testament prophets did not understand why. He had to be born without sin in order to be the sinless, spotless Lamb of God “who takes away the sin of the world.” He lived a perfect, sinless life and became sin for us by being made a sacrifice for all the sins of man.

@Focused:

feel I need to clarify your understanding of the blessed trinity because of the confusion that is running riot in your head or will I say running riot as a result of what your quran have told you:

THERE IS ONE TRUE GOD

Although there are many false gods existing in this world and in the spirit realm, there is only one true God; however, He exists in three forms: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There are many, many scriptures that support this fact in both the Old and New Testaments.

The Lord Jesus Christ was both God and Man

; You were doing great, even if only in your plain logic, until, 'He exists in three forms.' I just have to laugh at your process; It is like the egg having the shell, the abdumen and yoke or the Water in solid ice, liquid water and staem/vapor! Terrible idea, to have 3 statehood of One God! Then you kill the car by your, 'The Lord Jesus Christ was bothGod and man!' What will Jesus really do or say about this if he were to be permitted to be in your presence right now: Definitely, you will not see a bashful or meek man. He will be annoid with every lie you have spewed about him. You wanna keep deceiving yourself that a child who came out between the thights of young Virgin Mary is your God/Lord, carry on, man, carry on. You will soon find out when you are dying and the reality that Jesus was no more than a mere human prophet. A messenger of his Lord to his own people, the lost children of Israel.

And thanks Manhattan is okay. All the crazies are on holiday spirit; oh, oh, oh! Santa has left the building. Rudolph red nose is sore for real. The sale is flat. Enjoy while you can. lol.

And since Alexis last entry, where he promised to get me verses of the Qur'an, he has gone down with the sun of Arab. Disappearing beyond the Sand doom/mountains of the desert! Okay, its the holidays for him. The Arabs are so salvage and wild, yet they allow the Kaferi Alexis to take time out for the birth of his God! The God that was born just less than 2040 years ago! What a young God! My father the Hanifan Ibrahim and his sons, Ismail and younger Isaiaq are a lot older! That means, even all these people have existed long time before Chistian God.

@Olabowale :

You were doing great, even if only in your plain logic, until, 'He exists in three forms.' I just have to laugh at your process; It is like the egg having the shell, the abdumen and yoke or the Water in solid ice, liquid water and staem/vapor! Terrible idea, to have 3 statehood of One God! Then you kill the car by your,  'The Lord Jesus Christ was bothGod and man!' What will Jesus really do or say about this if he were to be permitted to be in your presence right now: Definitely, you will not see a bashful or meek man. He will be annoid with every lie you have spewed about him. You want to keep deceiving yourself that a child who came out between the thights of young Virgin Mary is your God/Lord, carry on, man, carry on. You will soon find out when you are dying and the reality that Jesus was no more than a mere human prophet. A messenger of his Lord to his own people, the lost children of Israel.

And thanks Manhattan is okay. All the crazies are on holiday spirit; oh, oh, oh! Santa has left the building. Rudolph red nose is sore for real. The sale is flat. Enjoy while you can. lol.

You never cease to amaze me  with your stiffnecked spirit. I am not surprise because it is very common with people who practise Islamic religion, that is why your cleric (Imam or Osama bin Laden wannabes) will ask you to go and kill yourselves or commit suicide and you will carry it out immediately,

Let me explain using an example which you will understand :

You are a human being but you are a tripatite creation  -  that is you have a body, a spirit and a soul. You are created in the image of God. So will you say you are a three human beings

Man was created as a three-fold being – spirit, soul and body – in the image of God.  “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” (Genesis 1:26)

@focused ,

thank you for that simple explanation of the Trinity using "Man" as a simple but very effective example.

Now may olabowale would simple deny that he does not have a Spirit and Soul so that he can then say that he does not have a three-manifold existence.

Olabowale , Please do you really sincerely believe quran despite everything people have been doing to show you contradictions (allah correcting mistakes earlier made), logical rubbish(), sex orgy/abuse (mohammed's sex with Aisha a nine year old, virgins for former terrorists) , satanic verses (which truely, exists for which Salma Rushdie is threatened becuase he had the audacity to reveal the truth).

It really confounds me that people and individuals who can understand Physics (Relativity, Quantum mechanics, Advanced Mathematics etc) find it difficult to realise the absolute rubbish and mish mash the the quran is and the fraud that mohammed is.

If you do,

olabowale:

And since Alexis last entry, where he promised to get me verses of the Qur'an, he has gone down with the sun of Arab. Disappearing beyond the Sand doom/mountains of the desert! Okay, its the holidays for him. The Arabs are so salvage and wild, yet they allow the Kaferi Alexis to take time out for the birth of his God! The God that was born just less than 2040 years ago! What a young God! My father the Hanifan Ibrahim and his sons, Ismail and younger Isaiaq are a lot older! That means, even all these people have existed long time before Chistian God.

Lol. . . Your hatred for Christianity is quite entertaining - so much so that you have lost all sense of decorum and maturity when you speak about the convictions of non-Muslims.

Since you have an incurable disease of deliberately casting aspersions on Christ and Christians, don't cry foul when you read very unpleasant things being said about Muhammad. That is not to say that I condone them or that I would be saying such. It is just a friendly warning to remind you that you only get as much as you invite in a public Forum.

You and your brethren quoted a hadith reference where Muhammad asked you to not insult the deities of non-Muslims - but you really haven't grown up to demonstrate that you really take Muhammad seriously. Well done. . . we are counting the number of Muslims who continue to thrash Muhammad's words day by day!

alexis:

Old man - I am not questioning the Arabic language, I am questioning the authenticity of the quran, I am questioning who compiled the quran and the numerous errors and flaws that you claim was made in heaven before the beginning of the world. Whether the quran is written in Arabic, English French or Mongolian - it remains the same - a book of contradiction, incitement to hate and kill in the name of a god. Those are the things I have problem with.

Lol. . . @alexis,

Muslims by default are trained to divert issues and start rambling into irrelevant stories that have no bearing upon the simple questions you ask! We continue to see the same thing again and again!

Consider this little parable
, there was a student one was name Christian, the other was name Muslim, they were both wanted to give a presentation of who had the best research concept to Lecturers. On the day of their presentation it was discovered that they both had slighlty similar presentations, hence their researches were crossed checked, area of both similarities was then compared it was then found out that Muslim's research contained a particular step that indicated "Hydrogren + oxygen + chlorine = Water". It was correspondingly found out that a particular step in Christian's research indicated that "Hydrogen + Oxygen = Water[/color]". Unfortunately it was known and understood that if a single step in their research is wrong then their whole research can longer be substantiated, because for their researches to be correct then their whole steps taking in the research must be correct.

The lecturers having had a wealth of understanding about how Water is formed now have to decided and answer three things:

1. Which of the two (christian and muslim) copied the other

2. Which of the two mentioned steps are correct

3. Which of the two researches is correct


,

So everyone (So babs787, olabowale and other muslims included) therefore my question is this:

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE THREE ANSWERS TO THE THREE QUESTIONS WOULD BE


[color=#990000]So finally once you have decided on what the answers to the three questions would be kindly now relate that to the issue "about Bible versus quran" , "About Jehovah GOD versus allah"



The ball as it is said , it's in "ya kart" now babs787 et al

@pilgrim.1

Since you have an incurable disease of deliberately casting aspersions on Christ and Christians, don't cry foul when you read very unpleasant things being said about Muhammad. That is not to say that I condone them or that I would be saying such. It is just a friendly warning to remind you that you only get as much as you invite in a public Forum.

You may cry from till eternity for all I care. Give me how muslims have been casting aspersions on Jesus and I will give you verses butressing same from your bible and Quran. You are free to start serving us your lies. Lets I forget, can you please tell me your biblical stand on Jinn?






@sysuser

1. Which of the two (christian and muslim) copied the other

2. Which of the two mentioned steps are correct

3. Which of the two researches is correct

You dont just post but back your statement with facts probably from your bible or Quran. You may do the needful by serving the correct steo and we will dig deep into the origin of the two religion.

Welcome to my world

Once again let me retariate babs787, I am not against you as a person. I am only against the Spirit at work in you.

concernging where you said

@sysuser

Quote
1. Which of the two (christian and muslim) copied the other

2. Which of the two mentioned steps are correct

3. Which of the two researches is correct


You don't just post but back your statement with facts probably from your bible or Quran. You may do the needful by serving the correct steo and we will dig deep into the origin of the two religion.

Welcome to my world

Do you realise that I simply gave you a parable , just as there are numerous parables by Jesus himself.

I also tried to use a parable to make you understand, please know that I am your FRIEND who is interested in making sure that you don't lose your Soul.

If embarrassing myself for your sake would make you receive the gift of salvation through Christ I would gladly do it,

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

You may cry from till eternity for all I care.

I'm not the one crying - and if you were cured of your illiteracy before eternity meets you, you would have quickly seen that my caution was for the sobbing olabowale who is very quick often times to wail that Muhammad is being derided because he himself could not help respecting the convictions of other people!

babs787:

Give me how muslims have been casting aspersions on Jesus and I will give you verses butressing same from your bible and Quran.

In order words, your drive is to give me verses of the "same" - the same casting aspersion from the Qur'an on Jesus? Are you that dense you hardly spend a minute to read your own statement - or do you have a special talent for such illiterate posts?

babs787:

You are free to start serving us your lies.

Sorry, I never lied to the Forum that the Torah was LOST - that was your own duplicity that you have not found an answer to up until this very day! Lying for Allah is the very thing that Muslims know how to do - nothing more than that!

babs787:

Lets I forget, can you please tell me your biblical stand on Jinn?

I will do so conseqently - I only want to give you enough time to display how hypocritical you can be.

babs787:

You don't just post but back your statement with facts probably from your bible or Quran.

He has done so - go back and read his entries again.

babs787:

You may do the needful by serving the correct steo and we will dig deep into the origin of the two religion.

That would be fascinating - I'm waiting to dig deep into you LIE of the Qur'an coming to "correct" the Biblical scriptures.

@pilgrim.1



Your dishonesty will not help you. You left the thread when questions were thrown at you only for you to resurrect later. Now since you are that deluded to thik straight,


1. What does the revelation given to Moses contain
2. What does the revelation given to Jesus contain

when you are able to provide these, I will show that we have the revelation given to Moses, Jesus and David in the glorious Quran.

since you are still denying the fact that your bible is corrupt,

1, Please do we say Catholic bible is not the word of God?
2. Do we say Jehovah witness is not the word of God
3. Which versions is really from God and when you supply me a version, I will give you missing verses in that, contradictions etc.
4. Do we count the word of historian, un-inspired words, third party statement as part of the revelation given to the prophets
5. Do we include letters of Paul as part of the revelation God gave to Jesus.


Thanks

@sysuser

I also tried to use a parable to make you understand, please know that I am your FRIEND who is interested in making sure that you don't lose your Soul.

I am also your friend. I am saved but I am worried about you because believing in Jesus without accepting the last book and the last prophet will profit you nothing.

I even gave you a verse where I requested for your proof that you will be favored on that. If you do not have Islam, you will be among the loser on that day and I do not want that to happen to you hence my calling you.

If embarrassing myself for your sake would make you receive the gift of salvation through Christ I would gladly do it,

Brother, I already have Jesus and you would have been reading about him in my book.Jesus is not more than a slave and messenger of Allah sent for the children of Israel alone, he is not your God, he didnt cme to die for you let alone being crucified or resurrecting after the third day.

@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

Your dishonesty will not help you.

Please pack yourself one side! How many times have you been so brazenly and shamelessly dubious on the Forum? And you have the tememrity to refer to me as being dishonest after you have tried to put words into Allah'smouth to make him say what he never once said in the Qur'an!!

babs787:
You left the thread when questions were thrown at you only for you to resurrect later.

Dunce! I did not leave any thread where questions were thrown at me - and I made it perfectly clear that I would be away from the Forum for a while. Only illiterate dunces continue to be blind to what everyone already knows - and no one else has complained as to why they have not seen me on the Forum for a while.

How many times have you guys been chasing your own belly-bottons and ducking simple questions?

babs787:

Now since you are that deluded to thik straight,

Lol. . . is that a new word you just learnt from your night school? Please go attend a proper school to better you grade.

babs787:

1. What does the revelation given to Moses contain

Clever fool. You told us that the Torah and Injil were LOST, and we asked many times what the lost Torah and injil contained. Did you ever answer those questions? Sorry, you have been warned before, I'm not here for your Islamic games - and you can go back to your errand boys and let them know that your juju will never work on pilgrim.1.

Open the Bible and read for yourself what was revealed to Moses. The Torah is still part of the OT and has never been lost - contrary to your Islamic lies to make Allah say what he never once said!

babs787:

2. What does the revelation given to Jesus contain

Jesus Himself is the Gospelm being preached to all the world. It was Muhammad who came along with the dubious LIE that a revelation was given to Jesus as the Injil, whereas no Muslim knows where that Injil is today!

babs787:

when you are able to provide these, I will show that we have the revelation given to Moses, Jesus and David in the glorious Quran.

Please bring them out and let us read! Pack the stories of mere mention of their names in the Qur'an - andn when you do bring out your "stories", there will be questions for you to answer.

babs787:

since you are still denying the fact that your bible is corrupt,

That is the same confused LIE that Muslims are marking time with! If the Bible was "corrupt" what prompted you to try and smuggle Muhammad into John's Gospel and Deuteronomy in previous debates?

babs787:

1, Please do we say Catholic bible is not the word of God?

I'm not a Catholic - and if anyone has been following my discussions all along with Catholics, they already know my answer to that question.

babs787:

2. Do we say Jehovah witness is not the word of God

How can Jehovah Witness be the Word of God? Are you that daft? Jehovah Witnesses are a denominational group - they are not the Word of God!!

babs787:

3. Which versions is really from God and when you supply me a version, I will give you missing verses in that, contradictions etc.

The VERSIONS are not the original manuscripts in just the same way that there are VERSIONS of the Qur'an which are saying DIFFERENT things all at once on the same verses!!

babs787:

4. Do we count the word of historian, un-inspired words, third party statement as part of the revelation given to the prophets

You already know the answer to that question. If the word of thrid party is not valid, neither is the Qur'an valid - because Allah never spoke directly to Muhammad at anytime! DENY the fact!

babs787:

5. Do we include letters of Paul as part of the revelation God gave to Jesus.

You must be a classic dunce per excellence!  The Revelation is the last book of the New Testament - pick up a Bible and see!

The reason why you keep sounding off these disgusting duplicity is because you love so easily to divert topics and then proffer illieterate questions by which you hope to hoodwink me. Sorry babs, it has not worked and will never work on me.

May God help you , Lord God Almighty I have tried , to make you him see reason.

His blood is on your head,

@SysUser: Nice try. Excepts the matter/material that is in question is not as easy as your water formation experiment. If we use that for a moment: Your Christian scholar only used one atom of Hydrogen, without considering the bonding potential for it to be stable, in relationship with the atomic structure of water, both are combustible, the way. Your H and O will never form water while the Muslim used sufficient amount of hydogen in proportion to Oxygen. The Muslim gave very sound product compared to the deficient, easy to poke holes to process of the Christian student. He never was able to form water.

Consider this little parable
, there was a student one was name Christian, the other was name Muslim, they were both wanted to give a presentation of who had the best research concept to Lecturers. On the day of their presentation it was discovered that they both had slighlty similar presentations, hence their researches were crossed checked, area of both similarities was then compared it was then found out that Muslim's research contained a particular step that indicated "Hydrogren + oxygen + chlorine = Water". It was correspondingly found out that a particular step in Christian's research indicated that "Hydrogen + Oxygen = Water". Unfortunately it was known and understood that if a single step in their research is wrong then their whole research can longer be substantiated, because for their researches to be correct then their whole steps taking in the research must be correct.

The lecturers having had a wealth of understanding about how Water is formed now have to decided and answer three things:

1. Which of the two (christian and muslim) copied the other

2. Which of the two mentioned steps are correct

3. Which of the two researches is correct
       
So everyone (So babs787, olabowale and other muslims included) therefore my question is this:

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE THREE ANSWERS TO THE THREE QUESTIONS WOULD BE

So finally once you have decided on what the answers to the three questions would be kindly now relate that to the issue "about Bible versus quran"  , "About Jehovah GOD versus allah"

: Pilgrim.1 falls flat all the time she uses this type of predetermined/I box you in weak ideas with me. You did not ask her about me? I cry a lot, she would tell you. But then i come back hard and thought provoking! Any one who knows the nature of God as complete and superior to mankind's nature will not come up with your NT idea of God, being a 3godhead deity. And then one of them was killed off, even for just a moment; 3 days that was not calculated properly, to amount to a full 72 hours or 3 nights and 3 days, from the Jewish system of calculating day; Sundown to Sun down!

If you have all these deficiencies in the NT alone, without even going to what the Jews, the rightful holders of OT think of you, how come you think you can stand toe to toe to didcuss spirituality? You call your god, 1 part man through young virgin Mary, 1 part spiritual being and 1 part father. Yet 1 part dies and was asking why, why from the part that is father while dying?


What blood are you talking about youngblood?

The ball is ya kort!

@olabowale,

olabowale:

: Pilgrim.1 falls flat all the time she uses this type of predetermined/I box you in weak ideas with me. You did not ask her about me?

Oh please, you men should grow up and act like men! Your whining is irritating and boring all at once. What I need are answers, not deflections and story telling!

We want simple straight answers to the simple queries that Muslims are so confused about and continue to use words to flash their duplicity in our faces. Such games of Islamic convenience are over! Stop lying for 'Allah' is my simple challenge.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

If you have all these deficiencies in the NT alone, without even going to what the Jews, the rightful holders of OT think of you, how come you think you can stand toe to toe to didcuss spirituality?

If Muhammad was not man enough to read and acknowledge what was in the same Torah that he handled in his day and said he believed in, where does your spirituality begin? Is it not obvious that nobody except illiterates can take Muhammad seriously when he claimed to believe in all the prophets, wheras it is a known fact that he was denying what they had received from God?

You guys often throw allegations and stand aloof with irrelavant stories to substantiate your summations. Can we see a few of those same issues yet - the same issues I've been asking you guys to help us proffer answers to?

Pilgrim.1: You accuse others, yet you have no foundation for your accusation. But wait a minute, if a man call a kite an airplane, does it still mean it is an airplane, just because its in the air? Hardly. That is the diffrerent between your Bible of today, a mere kite and the revealed books to each Prophets, Moses' taurat, David's Sabuur and Jesus son of Mary's Injiil, all are Airplanes to the shadowy Kites you have in between the two covers of what you call Bible presently.

@pilgrim.1

If Muhammad was not man enough to read and acknowledge what was in the same Torah that he handled in his day and said he believed in, where does your spirituality begin? Is it not obvious that nobody except illiterates can take Muhammad seriously when he claimed to believe in all the prophets, wheras it is a known fact that he was denying what they had received from God?

what did they receive from God that he denied? It seems that you dont post garbage like you used to. Hope you are not running out of point?

You guys often throw allegations and stand aloof with irrelavant stories to substantiate your summations. Can we see a few of those same issues yet - the same issues I've been asking you guys to help us proffer answers to?

You are still here demanding for revelations when you have been served contradictions from the inspired book of God, missing verses, later insertions etc. I even gave you list of unfulfilled prophecies attributed to Jesus. Lastly, we all know that God gave Moses and Jesus revelation, do we say

1. God gave moses the Pentateuch?
2. Do we say the letters of Paul, third party sayings, etc is part of the revelation given to Jesus
4. Cna you please tell me what the revelation given to Jesus contains?
5. Can you tell me what the revelation given to Moses contains?

olabowale:

Pilgrim.1: You accuse others, yet you have no foundation for your accusation. But wait a minute, if a man call a kite an airplane, does it still mean it is an airplane, just because its in the air? Hardly. That is the diffrerent between your Bible of today, a mere kite and the revealed books to each Prophets, Moses' taurat, David's Sabuur and Jesus son of Mary's Injiil, all are Airplanes to the shadowy Kites you have in between the two covers of what you call Bible presently.

Please stop whinging like a child. I offered you simple and straugfht forward pointers to discuss issues. If there's nothing you can rationally think of, pack yourself and your bloviates one corner and let me deal with better issues than your tantrums.